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  1. #1
    humber river advocate
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    is the mega quarry really a bad idea?

    ok, they dig a pit to get some limestone. pit fills with water, becomes part of the watershed, area gets naturalized. more productive food sources can be incorporated. jobs created, greater sustainability than intensive mono agriculture. a rail line is built (a really good idea) and it would make a cool mtb trail around the perimeter of the lake.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 10-14-2011 at 05:45 PM.
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    If your refering to the quarry they are looking to build near Elora, I am for and against it.
    I agree with your arguments for, but the problem you run into is Elora is a tourism based town. When you develop something like a quarry right next to it, the amount of construction traffic that would be passing through the middle of the town would cause affect the calm atmosphere of the town and affect the amount of paying traffic flowing through the area.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by boarder4life View Post
    If your refering to the quarry they are looking to build near Elora, I am for and against it.
    I agree with your arguments for, but the problem you run into is Elora is a tourism based town. When you develop something like a quarry right next to it, the amount of construction traffic that would be passing through the middle of the town would cause affect the calm atmosphere of the town and affect the amount of paying traffic flowing through the area.
    i don't like the truck traffic as you. i do like a train systems "(which should be one of the conditions). the rail trail should be built not only as a means to transport limestone, but as a form of public transport and connect such town as elora to the gta. tourism will increase.
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    It should be one of the conditions but the AAR system would not develop a rail system for a temporary situation. Unfortunately I work in an industry that works quiet closely with with the rail systems and it takes ALOT for them to make developments that have value to them. Its amazing how cheap it has become for companies to transport with trucks and much more convenient for end location.

    They use to have a railroad system running through the town and had removed due to its lack of use.

    The other issue with that quarry particularly is it has been designated to be built within town limits. The effect on the community would not only bring down the value of the area, but would also destroy the atmosphere of the natural Gorge running through the town.

    I actually use to stay in with my girlfriend that lived right at the center of the town next to the bridge, and just the normal traffic running through there was fairly loud, the increase from a 24/7 quarry running would be mind blowing

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    isn't this the quarry they want north of shelburne?

  6. #6
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    the cost of a railway transportation falls into mandate and plans of the district, the province and the feds (as well as conservation authorities). truck transport can be restricted by the by-laws of the township. the railway can be powered by the wind mills or solar energy...

    Quote Originally Posted by boarder4life View Post
    It should be one of the conditions but the AAR system would not develop a rail system for a temporary situation. Unfortunately I work in an industry that works quiet closely with with the rail systems and it takes ALOT for them to make developments that have value to them. Its amazing how cheap it has become for companies to transport with trucks and much more convenient for end location.

    They use to have a railroad system running through the town and had removed due to its lack of use.

    The other issue with that quarry particularly is it has been designated to be built within town limits. The effect on the community would not only bring down the value of the area, but would also destroy the atmosphere of the natural Gorge running through the town.

    I actually use to stay in with my girlfriend that lived right at the center of the town next to the bridge, and just the normal traffic running through there was fairly loud, the increase from a 24/7 quarry running would be mind blowing
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 10-14-2011 at 07:14 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    isn't this the quarry they want north of shelburne?
    yup
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    Yes but that is based on the fact the quarry owners are more worried about being green. The type of people that buy some of the most fertile land in Ontario and plan to dig it out into a hole, generally are not worried about the environment.

    Plus running the machinery involved in digging, excavating and transporting iar surpasses the supply that can be given by Solar power and windmills at any given moment.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by boarder4life View Post
    Yes but that is based on the fact the quarry owners are more worried about being green. The type of people that buy some of the most fertile land in Ontario and plan to dig it out into a hole, generally are not worried about the environment.

    Plus running the machinery involved in digging, excavating and transporting iar surpasses the supply that can be given by Solar power and windmills at any given moment.
    not quite sure about that... i wouldnt call an area where they do potatoe farming as the most fertile land in ontario... i would call it a heavily contaminated area with pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers. as will as the natural habitat that has been removed to make fields... i'm not even going to talk about the genetically modified foods that they grow...
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  10. #10
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    Here is information (or propaganda, if you prefer) provided by the Highland Companies:

    Melancthon Quarry

    and those who oppose it:

    No Mega Quarry

  11. #11
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    The problem is what happens in the meantime, we're looking at a massive earthmoving operation which will be ongoing for many years. First they need to strip off all the soil overburden then they keep blasting till they're a couple hundred feet below the water table. Problem #1, where does that overburden go? Will they dump it in a big pile, cart it away, dump it down the river, or something else?

    Next, since they're going to go well below the water table, they'll need to pump craploads of water from the mine 24/7, the estimates I'm reading are 600 million litres per day, which is about oh...240 Olympic sized swimming pools or about 87% of the Credit river's total flow. Where is that water going to go, and what will its effects be on the nearby watersheds?

    Which leads to problem #3, the pumps used for keeping mines dry are giant diesel powered affairs the size of a tractor-trailer, which means they're going to need a fuel tank farm on site. 7000L of water per second, lifted over a height of 100-200m, overall efficiency of about 25%, you go figure out how much diesel fuel that burns (it's more fuel in a day than most of us will use in a lifetime). There will be spillage.

    I suspect many of us won't live long enough to see the quarry close down its operations, let alone return to a naturalized state, and we sure as hell won't be mountain biking at that time. We're looking at a generational problem, the choices we make now with regards to the quarry are ones that our children and grandkids will have to live with. We damn well better choose wisely.

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    All studies, statistics, poll, and such reports based arguments aside.

    Let's simplify this. No one wants this in their back yard or the town they live in. But won't care if it's in someone else's town. You can argue all you want but the reality is that what is needed to live our lifestyle here in Canada requires stuff like this. It's way to easy to whine about this, a garbage dump, or the Oil Sands. To blame the companies.

    It is us humans specifically consumers who want all the benefits we enjoy yet don't want to see the consequences shoved in our faces. Because as long as we don't see it we really don't give a care other then words.

  14. #14
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    ahh sipping the kool aid... all the muck stripped off will make some sweet singletrack around the lake. water drainage will follow old river beds... lol, one thing ontario has is an easily accessible electric source (green and nuclear) as well as full govermental support in regards to green energy, not to mention any big dig is done under electric power...

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    All studies, statistics, poll, and such reports based arguments aside.

    Let's simplify this. No one wants this in their back yard or the town they live in. But won't care if it's in someone else's town. You can argue all you want but the reality is that what is needed to live our lifestyle here in Canada requires stuff like this. It's way to easy to whine about this, a garbage dump, or the Oil Sands. To blame the companies.

    It is us humans specifically consumers who want all the benefits we enjoy yet don't want to see the consequences shoved in our faces. Because as long as we don't see it we really don't give a care other then words.
    wait a minute you are responding to a thread of mine... the ignore was short lived
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    I was wondering when this topic would come up here.

    Soo much retoric tossed around by people that have never heard of Melancthon let alone a clue what the land is actually like.

    Best thing to come from this is that my Grandparents old farm house was dismantled and donated to the Dufferin Museum.


    http://www.dufferinmuseum.com/events...in041110-1.jpg

  17. #17
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    you should see all the pumps they are running to irrigate the potato fields....

    and this little tidbit:

    "May 2000, drinking water contaminated with E.coli and campylobacter bacteria killed seven people and made over 2,300 ill in Walkerton, Ontario."

    farming is not environmentally friendly


    the pumps they use in mining operations are electric... it is cheaper to set up a contract and buy a block of electricity for such an operation then to burn diesel. it is also cheaper and more reliable to run electric motors... the mining industry have been doing this for years.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 10-15-2011 at 06:00 AM.
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  18. #18
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    as well as that whole area has been clear cut for over a hundred years and that the orginal
    inhabitants where odawa/potawatomi... time marches on...
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    I've seen those signs all around the neighbourhood here without knowing what they were. Melancthon has what must be the single largest wind-farm in Canada. Add a mega-quarry to that and you'll have a very unusual melange of business operations indeed. Locals there must be either very accommodating, very pragmatic, or very quietly outraged I have no idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    I was wondering when this topic would come up here.

    Soo much retoric tossed around by people that have never heard of Melancthon let alone a clue what the land is actually like.

    Best thing to come from this is that my Grandparents old farm house was dismantled and donated to the Dufferin Museum.


    http://www.dufferinmuseum.com/events...in041110-1.jpg
    It's funny how a quarry gets this reaction. How people are going on about loss of farm land.

    Yet sure don't see this reaction going on about new housing developments that are going up. That are taking away valuable farmland as well. That require construction trucks and the mess they bring with them. And more are being built every day.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    I've seen those signs all around the neighbourhood here without knowing what they were. Melancthon has what must be the single largest wind-farm in Canada. Add a mega-quarry to that and you'll have a very unusual melange of business operations indeed. Locals there must be either very accommodating, very pragmatic, or very quietly outraged I have no idea.
    or happy they have jobs and industry,
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    My problem isn't with the quarry itself, it's with how they plan on developing & operating it. Under the current proposal they're going to mine it in blocks, they take one patch and blast it all the way down till they're a couple hundred feet below the water table, then move on to the next block when they're out of rock.

    The issue here is that the demand for aggregate is not going to be nearly as high as their projections. There's a lot of reasons for that which I don't have the time to cover in detail, but they include energy costs & availability, particularly transport fuels, a credit crunch & demographics change putting an end to the building construction boom, and the fact that we won't have the money nor credit to pay for all the crap we're going to build or maintain.

    Given that we're going to have reduced demand, they can keep the quarry going for a very long time without blasting below the water table. This means you won't need nearly as many pumps to keep it above water and it also simplifies mining operations. They'll have many years to either find a better location for a new quarry or come up with a better method for dewatering the mine and managing the water runoff.

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    with the closure of a few automotive part suppliers in the area (which were the better paying jobs of the area) they could certainly use an industry that would employ full time, stable, high paying work!

    since the closure of many large production factories from Collingwood to Orangeville there has been a drop in truck traffic.....the heavy truck traffic from the quarry arguement is junk.

    if the rail tracks can be laid again, the Melancthon Quarry could affect those from Mississauga to Owen Sound, creating more whiners and jobs as well as transportation for those that fall under neither.
    FAQ YOU

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    My problem isn't with the quarry itself, it's with how they plan on developing & operating it. Under the current proposal they're going to mine it in blocks, they take one patch and blast it all the way down till they're a couple hundred feet below the water table, then move on to the next block when they're out of rock.

    The issue here is that the demand for aggregate is not going to be nearly as high as their projections. There's a lot of reasons for that which I don't have the time to cover in detail, but they include energy costs & availability, particularly transport fuels, a credit crunch & demographics change putting an end to the building construction boom, and the fact that we won't have the money nor credit to pay for all the crap we're going to build or maintain.

    Given that we're going to have reduced demand, they can keep the quarry going for a very long time without blasting below the water table. This means you won't need nearly as many pumps to keep it above water and it also simplifies mining operations. They'll have many years to either find a better location for a new quarry or come up with a better method for dewatering the mine and managing the water runoff.

    mining in blocks would allow them to fill the old excavation with the spoil removed from the second phase and so on.....progressively restored to agriculture, forest ect....

    this land is far from amazing farm land....but what it has is an aggregate of very high quality....which is in demand for infrastucture.

    Id rather see this Melancthon pit open than the hole(s) Walker Aggregate plan to develope on the Niagara Escarpment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    this land is far from amazing farm land.
    It's great soil for potatoes. But people keep boohooing that it's all going to be lost. Talking like it's the end of the nations single source of food.

    It's less than 1% of the farm land in all of Dufferin county that is going to be quarry.

    This isn't even going to be the majority of the land that Baupost purchased under the Highlands name. They'll still be operating the largest potato producing farm in Ontario along side the quarry.

    The largest portion of Ontario's grade A farm land is already under concrete in the GTA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    The largest portion of Ontario's grade A farm land is already under concrete in the GTA.
    I believe the last farm in Toronto to city limits- the owner retired a few years ago.

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    at 1st I was against it but after hearing the other side of the arguments on a CBC interview of the people proposing the pit and the arguments put forth on this forum and other stuff I've read ,I'm now thinking it's not a bad idea.

    Quarry on
    Ont. farmland was the plan, firm says - Canada - CBC News


    not sure I'd want it right next door to where I live but it looks like there has been quite a bit of study put into the mining proposal and the land use after the pit is finished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    It's great soil for potatoes. But people keep boohooing that it's all going to be lost. Talking like it's the end of the nations single source of food.

    It's less than 1% of the farm land in all of Dufferin county that is going to be quarry.

    This isn't even going to be the majority of the land that Baupost purchased under the Highlands name. They'll still be operating the largest potato producing farm in Ontario along side the quarry.

    The largest portion of Ontario's grade A farm land is already under concrete in the GTA.
    i totally agree....those that are horny to oppose drive me crazy....dont get me started on windmills or wood heat!

    if Dufferin County was anything like the Holland Marsh i could understand....since i can grow a potato in my saturated terra work boot i care much less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    at 1st I was against it but after hearing the other side of the arguments on a CBC interview of the people proposing the pit and the arguments put forth on this forum and other stuff I've read ,I'm now thinking it's not a bad idea.

    Quarry on
    Ont. farmland was the plan, firm says - Canada - CBC News


    not sure I'd want it right next door to where I live but it looks like there has been quite a bit of study put into the mining proposal and the land use after the pit is finished.
    But David Suzuki say's it is evil. Therefore it must be evil no matter what. And he would never lie to us.

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    I was reading somewhere that someone was outraged because "they" had cut back all the tall grass along the side of the road and it was a loss of rare bird habitat.

    So it's bad if a big bad corporation cuts the grass...but nobody notices when the old farmer that has lived there for 50 years happens to finally get around to cutting it.

    Along the same lines they were mad because "they" plowed under a previously fallow field and planted it and birds lost habitat. Again bad because the evil corporation did it, but nobody would have cared or know had one farmer rented or purchased the unused field and returned it to production.

    Some guy wrote on the David Suzuki website saying they needed to get the department if fisheries and oceans involved. I almost fell out of my chair. The land is high dry flat farm land and the nearest river is miles away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    I was reading somewhere that someone was outraged because "they" had cut back all the tall grass along the side of the road and it was a loss of rare bird habitat.

    So it's bad if a big bad corporation cuts the grass...but nobody notices when the old farmer that has lived there for 50 years happens to finally get around to cutting it.

    Along the same lines they were mad because "they" plowed under a previously fallow field and planted it and birds lost habitat. Again bad because the evil corporation did it, but nobody would have cared or know had one farmer rented or purchased the unused field and returned it to production.

    Some guy wrote on the David Suzuki website saying they needed to get the department if fisheries and oceans involved. I almost fell out of my chair. The land is high dry flat farm land and the nearest river is miles away.
    It's the outrage of the month.

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    OK well it's front page news today in the Globe. Dolomite limestone is a big business indeed the manitoulin quarry is the 4th largest in canada and blasting runs 24/7. They have a deep-water port of course so no trucks there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    with the closure of a few automotive part suppliers in the area (which were the better paying jobs of the area) they could certainly use an industry that would employ full time, stable, high paying work!

    since the closure of many large production factories from Collingwood to Orangeville there has been a drop in truck traffic.....the heavy truck traffic from the quarry arguement is junk.

    if the rail tracks can be laid again, the Melancthon Quarry could affect those from Mississauga to Owen Sound, creating more whiners and jobs as well as transportation for those that fall under neither.
    Do you realize that they are talking about 180 trucks a hour along highway #9? The extra costs to the municipality's where these trucks pass through will be huge!
    There actually won't be that many jobs created "other than those working for the trucking companies".
    What worries me is how this will effect the water supply for the people that depends on wells for their water. Even though it is in is about 20kms from me it still could effect everyone's water for a hundred kms away. You just don't know.

    The other thing is how this company went about acquiring the land. Posing as well meaning potato farmers then turning around and wanting a gravel pit. Oh, I know they never planned it that way!! LOL

    Oh and the comment about a "sweet single track around it". HUH? Why do you think that would ever be allowed and why would you want to. There has to be hundreds of better places to build than a gravel pit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    It's funny how a quarry gets this reaction. How people are going on about loss of farm land.

    Yet sure don't see this reaction going on about new housing developments that are going up. That are taking away valuable farmland as well. That require construction trucks and the mess they bring with them. And more are being built every day.
    They don't complain about the housing tracts going up because it raises the value of their houses, and or land that can be sold to build more houses. A dump or quarry negatively impacts those prices.

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    So.. would any of you lot care this much if this to be built say near London ON instead? I doubt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudhead View Post
    They don't complain about the housing tracts going up because it raises the value of their houses, and or land that can be sold to build more houses. A dump or quarry negatively impacts those prices.
    Ah yes. The same type who whine about prostitutes in business districts and such. Then complain that the cops did nothing when they disappeared from industrial parks.

    The same type who buy housing near an active land fill site then Bietch, Snivel, Whine about the noise, smell, and such from said site.

    Ah.. the Canadian way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dgage View Post
    Do you realize that they are talking about 180 trucks a hour along highway #9? The extra costs to the municipality's where these trucks pass through will be huge!
    180 trucks an hour? is that good/bad? how many trucks an hour at this moment? need figures to compare it to.....
    There actually won't be that many jobs created "other than those working for the trucking companies".
    heavy equipement operators, mechanics, explosive tech., scale operators ect....those evil trucks dont load them selves
    What worries me is how this will effect the water supply for the people that depends on wells for their water. Even though it is in is about 20kms from me it still could effect everyone's water for a hundred kms away. You just don't know.
    your well, just as mine could dry tomarrow....no one to blame

    The other thing is how this company went about acquiring the land. Posing as well meaning potato farmers then turning around and wanting a gravel pit. Oh, I know they never planned it that way!! LOL

    Oh and the comment about a "sweet single track around it". HUH? Why do you think that would ever be allowed and why would you want to. There has to be hundreds of better places to build than a gravel pit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dgage View Post

    Oh and the comment about a "sweet single track around it". HUH? Why do you think that would ever be allowed and why would you want to. There has to be hundreds of better places to build than a gravel pit.
    Hmm.. maybe one should look up Lee Quarry and Cragg Quarry- Singletrack weekender comes to mind.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pyjNRSRj-QI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yVdgItcQZCw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jAUUYhFxbk0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



    Oh.. wait that would never happen here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Hmm.. maybe one should look up Lee Quarry and Cragg Quarry- Singletrack weekender comes to mind.

    Oh.. wait that would never happen here.
    This is Ontario, good things do not happen here in Ontario. Because it's different here.

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    I learned to "mountain bike" on a frankenbike in the abandoned gravel pits of Brampton in the early 80's. If my mother ever saw what we did we woulda got such a......!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    This is Ontario, good things do not happen here in Ontario. Because it's different here.
    More like putting more time and energy into.. " Get Offa My Trails", " How dare you invite your friend's to Copeland", " How dare you skid" , and all the rest of the crapola that goes on here. Then add " Unless it follows TRCA or IMBA it is unaccaeptable" dogma for good measure.

  42. #42
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    Just a note, that they will not be making these "blocks" into natural habitat but they will be making it back into potato fields. It is the mandates that once mining is finished it needs to be returned back to the original purpose, but I don't know how well anything will grow in a big hole.

    As far as making a quarry into a new natural lake, I spent some time up in Atikokin where the largest land excavation took place during WWI and WWII as well as some other huge mining endeavors. There are two lakes there, they are extremely deep, I forget the depth right now, but one is teaming with life plus a fish farm works out of it but the other has no life of any kind in it, they have even tried to introduce green algee into it. It has been studied by Lakehead students and U of T students for masters and phd's as comparisons to learn what happens with old quarries. One of the lakes that was used to dump the water into during the excavation is now a great lake used by outfitters for canoe trips and fishing trips.
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  43. #43
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    anyone going to foodstock on sunday?
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post

    and this little tidbit:

    "May 2000, drinking water contaminated with E.coli and campylobacter bacteria killed seven people and made over 2,300 ill in Walkerton, Ontario."

    farming is not environmentally friendly
    Wrong. The farm that contaminated the well in Walkerton was there first!

    Horrible civil engineering(or whomever decided to put that well near the low lying side of a farm) and poor water treatment operators caused that disaster. Can't blame the farm....
    "I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie View Post
    Wrong. The farm that contaminated the well in Walkerton was there first!

    Horrible civil engineering(or whomever decided to put that well near the low lying side of a farm) and poor water treatment operators caused that disaster. Can't blame the farm....
    Sorry.. logic, fact, and truth are only convenient if it fits his views. Why I now have his tripe on ignore. All I now see is,

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZwPEbE5mINw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie View Post
    Horrible civil engineering(or whomever decided to put that well near the low lying side of a farm) and poor water treatment operators caused that disaster. Can't blame the farm....
    So shít really does flow downhill. Who coulda known??!!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie View Post
    Wrong. The farm that contaminated the well in Walkerton was there first!

    Horrible civil engineering(or whomever decided to put that well near the low lying side of a farm) and poor water treatment operators caused that disaster. Can't blame the farm....
    so a farm is allowed to contaminate groundwater through poor manure management, standards, etc and they are off the hook because they where there first? yeah ok...

    NRDC: Facts about Pollution from Livestock Farms

    http://www.thepigsite.com/pighealth/...on-on-the-farm

    http://www.swinehealth.ca/CSHB_Biose..._StandardE.pdf

    might as will put all of this on ignore also...
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    so a farm is allowed to contaminate groundwater through poor manure management, standards, etc and they are off the hook because they where there first? yeah ok...
    Was that farm in Walkerton ever charged with anything?

    Way to dazzle us with the BS links tho....

    Edit reason: I forgot you...were wrong.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    I believe the last farm in Toronto to city limits- the owner retired a few years ago.
    not true, micro organic farms are gaining ground and have been in operation in the city.

    actually i hope there will be many farms in city toronto limits one day. that is one project i have developed materials for and see as a future resource in cities. all you have to do is look up at the roof tops to see where you can grow. one project which i provided materials for was on top of the carrot common. the project was a succes on many levels within the community and proves that you can farm on a city roof top. many such projects have proven successful here and around the world.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie View Post
    Was that farm in Walkerton ever charged with anything?

    Way to dazzle us with the BS links tho....

    Edit reason: I forgot you...were wrong.
    prove the links i provided are invalid or contain false information... or are bs in any way.
    the farm was not charged because the laws where to vague at that time.

    you might as well read this.
    https://ospace.scholarsportal.info/b...1/10294049.pdf

    http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/eh/wate...anurefinal.pdf

    standards and practices have changed since then and now that farm would be charged.
    yet even now the law is still weak.

    oh and i haven't even gotten into this... but i guess this is bs also...

    <embed src="http://cnettv.cnet.com/av/video/cbsnews/atlantis2/cbsnews_player_embed.swf" scale="noscale" salign="lt" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" background="#333333" width="425" height="279" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" FlashVars="si=254&&contentValue=50083433&shareUrl= http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/09/eveningnews/main6191530.shtml" />
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 10-16-2011 at 08:40 PM.
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