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  1. #1
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    Massacre at Mansfield

    I want to Mansfield and it was a disaster,there is a logging operation going on in the south part of the forest where the big old ladder bridge is and some single track was torn up by horses and dirt bikers.It was the worst conditions I've seen all year.

    I hope we can get the trail restored in the spring.Who takes care of things out there? I'd like to help out come spring time.

  2. #2
    namagomi
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    The big old ladder bridge?

    I saw a bunch of dirt biker and horse in there like 2 months ago riding all the singletrack. What the hell is the point to fix it if there is no enforcement and a logging company comes in every 2yrs and thrashes everything.

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    Iv been on those trails more than 20 years
    Most of the trails on the north end are old dirt bike trails !
    The upper parking lot was always full of motor bike trailers.
    Where do you think all the berms and 'woops' came from ??
    Mt.bikes came alot later when the motor bikes were licked out long ago !!
    Mt bikes maintained those trails and made new ones as did the out door centre.
    ( they have their own trail system)
    The horses , well they just ride other people's trails.
    The loggers ? , can't stop them , it's their forest to log

  4. #4
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    Yep, same with most of the trails around here. Every couple years a section of trail gets logged and all chewed up. Nothing you can do about it....After a few repairs and a couple months of riding things are back to normal.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    The big old ladder bridge?

    I saw a bunch of dirt biker and horse in there like 2 months ago riding all the singletrack. What the hell is the point to fix it if there is no enforcement and a logging company comes in every 2yrs and thrashes everything.
    Yes,one of the trails to the south of the parking lot on airport road has a big ladder bridge that is falling down.That's where the logging starts.

    Why?Because the trails are awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Most of the trails on the north end are old dirt bike trails !
    The upper parking lot was always full of motor bike trailers.
    Where do you think all the berms and 'woops' came from ??
    Mt.bikes came alot later when the motor bikes were licked out long ago !!
    Mt bikes maintained those trails and made new ones as did the out door centre.
    ( they have their own trail system)
    The horses , well they just ride other people's trails.
    The loggers ? , can't stop them , it's their forest to log
    Yes I know.I just want to know who takes care of the trails out there.I remember reading something about who does on this forum but I can't find the post.

  6. #6
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    the local riders which include people like Crash & bern are responsible for whats in there

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    the local riders which include people like Crash & bern are responsible for whats in there
    Actually there are alot of people who do alot of work & I tip my hat to them !!
    Compared to them I do just a small part , as every one should who rides any trail. !
    That said , if you ride these trails , PLEASE don't dumb them down or change them. To suit your riding style or ability !
    and if your ride has four legs instead of two wheels ,
    We can share the forest , just make your own trails and we will stay off them.
    Dirt bikers ( 2 wheel) , I've no problem with. They cut some nice trails.

  8. #8
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    First trail south of the parking lot near airport?

    JohnnyK build that one. I can remember poaching left over shingles from when I was working out at the Nottawasaga Inn and putting them on the big long log ride.

    Trail was built as an alternative to climb up and either head off into the MOC trail or after climbing up you would bomb back down into Ken's trail.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Iv been on those trails more than 20 years
    Most of the trails on the north end are old dirt bike trails !
    The upper parking lot was always full of motor bike trailers.
    Where do you think all the berms and 'woops' came from ??
    Mt.bikes came alot later when the motor bikes were licked out long ago !!
    Mt bikes maintained those trails and made new ones as did the out door centre.
    ( they have their own trail system)
    The horses , well they just ride other people's trails.
    The loggers ? , can't stop them , it's their forest to log
    Took me a couple minutes to figure out who this was.

    Kwityer*****en

    Or was it Quityer*****en?

  10. #10
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    Holly sensor batman you can't bit b-i-t-c-h in a post without it getting picked up.

  11. #11
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    Hey shirk it's easy to figure out who I am!
    Crash &....... "BERN"
    Who's this shirk ???

  12. #12
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    Earl

    Gotta keep an eye on the old stomping grounds from out here in BC.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    The big old ladder bridge?

    I saw a bunch of dirt biker and horse in there like 2 months ago riding all the singletrack. What the hell is the point to fix it if there is no enforcement and a logging company comes in every 2yrs and thrashes everything.
    the opp was in there yesterday, but good luck catching anyone.
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Actually there are alot of people who do alot of work & I tip my hat to them !!
    Compared to them I do just a small part , as every one should who rides any trail. !
    That said , if you ride these trails , PLEASE don't dumb them down or change them. To suit your riding style or ability !
    and if your ride has four legs instead of two wheels ,
    We can share the forest , just make your own trails and we will stay off them.
    Dirt bikers ( 2 wheel) , I've no problem with. They cut some nice trails.
    i have no problem with dirt bikers, i used to be a dirt biker also back in the day. atv's on the other hand...
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the opp was in there yesterday, but good luck catching anyone.
    I was told by a dirt biker who did get caught ( not sure how ? ) , that the cops are there because the horse people hire them ! Not sure how true that is but I can't see motor bikes bugging anyone else in the forest

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Earl

    Gotta keep an eye on the old stomping grounds from out here in BC.
    Hey Earl !
    Some of us are headed your way to go the next bc bile race

  17. #17
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    bile race????

    i don't know what kind of sh*t your into
    i think everyone else is going to the bike race

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    bile race????

    i don't know what kind of sh*t your into
    i think everyone else is going to the bike race
    Hehe yep sometimes I cam be full of it !!

  19. #19
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
    Yes,one of the trails to the south of the parking lot on airport road has a big ladder bridge that is falling down.That's where the logging starts.

    Why?Because the trails are awesome.



    Yes I know.I just want to know who takes care of the trails out there.I remember reading something about who does on this forum but I can't find the post.
    Oh... one of the old stunts? They're logging between the two parking lots off airport?

    The trails are good, yes, but the logging is pretty intense and even though moto guys made some of the trails they're not permitted to use the forest anymore for moto!

    Moto and mtb bike can't exist on the same trail because the moto guys chew it to bits such that only other moto can use it. So if moto people are here they need to decide if they want to illegally poach the trail and drive out the mtb bikers and face the OPP and angry users or just ride their damn bikes. BTW i think the answer is obvious if you love these trails.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Oh... one of the old stunts? They're logging between the two parking lots off airport?

    The trails are good, yes, but the logging is pretty intense and even though moto guys made some of the trails they're not permitted to use the forest anymore for moto!

    Moto and mtb bike can't exist on the same trail because the moto guys chew it to bits such that only other moto can use it. So if moto people are here they need to decide if they want to illegally poach the trail and drive out the mtb bikers and face the OPP and angry users or just ride their damn bikes. BTW i think the answer is obvious if you love these trails.
    BS. Moto and mtb can share the same trail system. There was zero problems in Mansfield for years. Open fast trails without sharp zero flow corners kept the moto's from destroying any sandy corners. The hill climb was the only chewed up spot.

    Locals will continue to ride moto in there mid week for an after work rip, some of them also happen to be the same guys that mtb in there.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    BS. Moto and mtb can share the same trail system. There was zero problems in Mansfield for years. Open fast trails without sharp zero flow corners kept the moto's from destroying any sandy corners. The hill climb was the only chewed up spot.

    Locals will continue to ride moto in there mid week for an after work rip, some of them also happen to be the same guys that mtb in there.
    also some of the same guys who have built and maintained trails in there.

    maybe in some areas its a large problem but for most parts the locals understand the history and relationship between the two user groups here in mansfield.
    not to say there are absolutly no issues,

  22. #22
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    BS. Moto and mtb can share the same trail system. There was zero problems in Mansfield for years. Open fast trails without sharp zero flow corners kept the moto's from destroying any sandy corners. The hill climb was the only chewed up spot.

    Locals will continue to ride moto in there mid week for an after work rip, some of them also happen to be the same guys that mtb in there.
    No, they can't. All the moto i've seen just tear any singletrack to peices same as the equestrian groups, mansfield was a great place to ride, the dufferin agreement forest got a lot better, but now it's going down the shitter again.

    Why try to justify.

    a) people breaking the law.
    b) people ruining trails.

    There is a forest right across the road they can use.

    The locals can do what they want, but it's a dumb dog that pisses in it's own waterbowl.

  23. #23
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    also some of the same guys who have built and maintained trails in there.

    maybe in some areas its a large problem but for most parts the locals understand the history and relationship between the two user groups here in mansfield.
    not to say there are absolutly no issues,
    Ah, come on. Get back to reality and stop living in the past.

    The title of the thread is Massacre at Mansfield, not singletrack perfect and ready to shred at mansfield.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    No, they can't. All the moto i've seen just tear any singletrack to peices same as the equestrian groups, mansfield was a great place to ride, the dufferin agreement forest got a lot better, but now it's going down the shitter again.

    yeah... way more destructive the quadtards.

    This thread is starting to reek of self righteousness.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Holly sensor batman you can't bit b-i-t-c-h in a post without it getting picked up.
    Yeah, the censor can be a bit of a bítch at times...

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    No, they can't. All the moto i've seen just tear any singletrack to peices same as the equestrian groups, mansfield was a great place to ride, the dufferin agreement forest got a lot better, but now it's going down the shitter again.
    This is part of a local trail system, almost all of which was originally cut by dirt bikes.



    They still ride there from time to time and the trails are just fine.


    As a sidenote, the person on the dirt bike rides the same trails on a mountain bike.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Earl

    Gotta keep an eye on the old stomping grounds from out here in BC.
    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Holly sensor batman you can't bit b-i-t-c-h in a post without it getting picked up.
    According to the Ontario MTB Illuminati unless you live within a 50ft radius of said trail and meet their personal approval.. you have no say. You will be sensored.


    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post

    They still ride there from time to time and the trails are just fine.


    As a sidenote, the person on the dirt bike rides the same trails on a mountain bike.
    Nice trials bike. Some BC builder once commented that the best way to build structures was to build it strong enough to handle a dirt bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    BS. Moto and mtb can share the same trail system. There was zero problems in Mansfield for years. Open fast trails without sharp zero flow corners kept the moto's from destroying any sandy corners. The hill climb was the only chewed up spot.

    Locals will continue to ride moto in there mid week for an after work rip, some of them also happen to be the same guys that mtb in there.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to shirk again.

  28. #28
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    The reality is we as Mt bikers can get kicked out of the forest just as easily as the motorbikes did !!
    Then we would be breaking the law by riding there !! The horse people would love that.
    Think it won't happen ?? Look around ! Here and in the states we're losing places to ride !
    When it's illegal to ride there will you poach the trails or turn to road riding ?
    I'm not saying it's right but that's what the dirt bikers are doing. No I haven't dirtbiked there for a loooong time. They don't ride there that often but they stick to the trails they built.
    Our issues should be the horses that ride there often, do more damage & have yet to build a trail

  29. #29
    namagomi
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    Hey guys, you can tell me moto don't ruin our singletrack trails... i'm not going to believe it because i've personally witnessed otherwise. To me it is just making excuses. No doubt some moto guys helped to cut trails, but they don't perpetually own the forest because of it particularly in light of the fact they were banned. I don't assume the right to ride my bicycle anywhere i please, even though i'm not hurting things, so why should dirtbikers get a break?

    Do you ride moto, just say yes before you answer so this conversation can be a little more honest because i think a few people here are a little biased. Most of the mtb i meet do not appreciate dirtbikes on their singletrack and while an occasional dirtbike poacher is unavoidable when you get too many like mansfield it's the end of your singletrack if you don't stand up. Which is what i do, now that i know who to call and where the plates are located on a dirtbike.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Hey guys, you can tell me moto don't ruin our singletrack trails... i'm not going to believe it because i've personally witnessed otherwise. To me it is just making excuses. No doubt some moto guys helped to cut trails, but they don't perpetually own the forest because of it particularly in light of the fact they were banned. I don't assume the right to ride my bicycle anywhere i please, even though i'm not hurting things, so why should dirtbikers get a break?

    Do you ride moto, just say yes before you answer so this conversation can be a little more honest because i think a few people here are a little biased. Most of the mtb i meet do not appreciate dirtbikes on their singletrack and while an occasional dirtbike poacher is unavoidable when you get too many like mansfield it's the end of your singletrack if you don't stand up. Which is what i do, now that i know who to call and where the plates are located on a dirtbike.
    Don't dirtbike. Don't give a flea's fart whether you believe anything or not. This whole self righteous "I don't like you and how you recreate. Stay off a my trails." bull puckey is getting old and tired.

    So far have seen better attitudes towards trails and others from dirt bikers then mountain bikers. I could explain it but I know I'm just wasting my time because you don't care to actually listen. You have made up your mind and anyone who has differing views is the enemy.

    Hmmm... doesn't it sound like the last 3 years of Copeland??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
    This thread was supposed to be about fixing the trails not fighting over them.
    I thought it was about which group should be hated more and should be banned while basking in the good feelings of post self righteouness orgasmic posting.

  32. #32
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
    This thread was supposed to be about fixing the trails not fighting over them.
    This is why those trails are broken. I won't spend my time fixing trails for some moto guy or horse will rip up in a few months. Further those moto guys don't give a **** about trail sustainability, it's only a co-incidence for them that bicycles use the same trails. Horse riders will get everybody banned if they could.

  33. #33
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    This thread was supposed to be about fixing the trails not fighting over them.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Don't dirtbike. Don't give a flea's fart whether you believe anything or not. This whole self righteous "I don't like you and how you recreate. Stay off a my trails." bull puckey is getting old and tired.

    So far have seen better attitudes towards trails and others from dirt bikers then mountain bikers. I could explain it but I know I'm just wasting my time because you don't care to actually listen. You have made up your mind and anyone who has differing views is the enemy.

    Hmmm... doesn't it sound like the last 3 years of Copeland??
    Maybe dirt bikers have a better attitude about the whole thing because they have nothing to lose.

    Tell me i'm close minded, but really i'm here listening waiting for you to rock my world. Show me some real points that dirt bikers don't erode up singletrack, pollute the forest and create so much noise every animal for a km runs for cover.

    I'm interested.

    Copeland is in much better shape now that they're getting organized... not like dufferin forest.

  35. #35
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    don't ride moto either and never have

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Hey guys, you can tell me moto don't ruin our singletrack trails... i'm not going to believe it because i've personally witnessed otherwise.
    It mostly comes down to responsible riding. Ride when the trails are firm, ride smooth & light and you'll never know that dirt bikes went through the trails. Back in the days before the area got developed, groups of dirt bikers would ride my local trail system every weekend IF the conditions were good. If the conditions weren't so good they'd session a couple empty lots in the area where they'd built some jumps & berms.

    Most of the damage that's done to my local trails happens when mountain bikers ride the trails when they're too wet & soft. And also by riders who get in over their heads and skid.

    Do you ride moto, just say yes before you answer so this conversation can be a little more honest because i think a few people here are a little biased.
    Nope.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    It mostly comes down to responsible riding. Ride when the trails are firm, ride smooth & light and you'll never know that dirt bikes went through the trails. Back in the days before the area got developed, groups of dirt bikers would ride my local trail system every weekend IF the conditions were good. If the conditions weren't so good they'd session a couple empty lots in the area where they'd built some jumps & berms.

    Most of the damage that's done to my local trails happens when mountain bikers ride the trails when they're too wet & soft. And also by riders who get in over their heads and skid.



    Nope.
    Well, not what is happening over at Dufferin forest. I only wish moto guys who rode there were as responsible and had less impact than a mountain biker - as you claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post

    Tell me i'm close minded, but really i'm here listening waiting for you to rock my world. Show me some real points that dirt bikers don't erode up singletrack, pollute the forest and create so much noise every animal for a km runs for cover.
    Interesting words. So basically it comes down to mtbers do less damage and such therefore have more rights than a dirtbiiker according to you. This right here is half the problem with all this. Next you will want to ban trail runners because they run in packs.

    Maybe if people turned down the hate and all that is showing on this thread more could be accomplished. Maybe something novel could occurr like actually talking to the dirt bikers and finding common ground. But that will never happen.

  39. #39
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Interesting words. So basically it comes down to mtbers do less damage and such therefore have more rights than a dirtbiiker according to you. This right here is half the problem with all this. Next you will want to ban trail runners because they run in packs.

    Maybe if people turned down the hate and all that is showing on this thread more could be accomplished. Maybe something novel could occurr like actually talking to the dirt bikers and finding common ground. But that will never happen.
    Yeah, damage is a very important variable when considering how to share a resource. It doesn't matter too much to a dirt biker if the trail is torn loose on straights, the corners are rutting out with brake bumps before and acceleration bumps afterward and all the ups are ending up like dunes. However all that stuff makes it pretty hard to ride your mtb on singletrack.

    It's bad enough we have to fight off the equestrian crowd from mountain bike singletrack.

    What is the common ground here? Dirtbikers lost their claim to that section of forest a while ago. Maybe they could figure out why? I am still waiting for some points regarding noise, erosion and pollution. Do you enjoy huffing 2-cycle exhaust and listening to brap while out in the woods riding eroded up singletrack - just curious.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
    This thread was supposed to be about fixing the trails not fighting over them.
    I rode there saterday night Apart from the logging ( which there's nothing you can do about ) the trails where still good to ride

    I have no problem sharing the forest with dirtbikes hikers & even horses !
    Everybody cut ,maintain & stay on your own trails !
    Then everybody's happy

  41. #41
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    Totally unrelated to Mansfield, but I have a local hiking trail here that I use as part of a charity ride each fall, with permission of the land owner (township) of course and they've sort of turned any maintenance on that trail over to me because there just isn't a budget to do anything. So this trail crosses a swampy section and a bunch of quads that had pulled out the boulders at the trail heads intended to keep them out managed to absolutely destroy sections of the trail - one portion is perpetually 14" or more under water now with a soggy, shoe sucking bottom. So I built a detour, intentionally too small for a quad to fit through. Now this trail see relatively little traffic but I was surprised by how quickly my side trail was breaking in - what I expected to be spongy trail for a couple years given the amount of traffic, was setting up into good trail in just a year.

    Until one day I was out working and a moto guy came up the new trail and stopped when he saw me working on it and thanked me. Turns out the reason that this trail was setting up so quickly was this moto was passing over it twice a day on his commute to and from work and he and some friends rode it regularly on the weekends. Until that point I had no idea that there was any moto on it at all, they left so little trace it was easily covered over by bicycle and foot traffic.

    Moral of the story, throttle twisters are our friends. Sure there are some idiots with no throttle control that give the rest a bad name, but in case you haven't noticed there are some idiot cyclists out there with no brake control giving us a bad name. The only trail user I have problems with are the quads who think the solution to all problems is more throttle on their heavy machines - which unfortunately they seem to be more than the small minority of quad riders

    Just my random thoughts...

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biff Pedachenko View Post
    Totally unrelated to Mansfield, but I have a local hiking trail here that I use as part of a charity ride each fall, with permission of the land owner (township) of course and they've sort of turned any maintenance on that trail over to me because there just isn't a budget to do anything. So this trail crosses a swampy section and a bunch of quads that had pulled out the boulders at the trail heads intended to keep them out managed to absolutely destroy sections of the trail - one portion is perpetually 14" or more under water now with a soggy, shoe sucking bottom. So I built a detour, intentionally too small for a quad to fit through. Now this trail see relatively little traffic but I was surprised by how quickly my side trail was breaking in - what I expected to be spongy trail for a couple years given the amount of traffic, was setting up into good trail in just a year.

    Until one day I was out working and a moto guy came up the new trail and stopped when he saw me working on it and thanked me. Turns out the reason that this trail was setting up so quickly was this moto was passing over it twice a day on his commute to and from work and he and some friends rode it regularly on the weekends. Until that point I had no idea that there was any moto on it at all, they left so little trace it was easily covered over by bicycle and foot traffic.

    Moral of the story, throttle twisters are our friends. Sure there are some idiots with no throttle control that give the rest a bad name, but in case you haven't noticed there are some idiot cyclists out there with no brake control giving us a bad name. The only trail user I have problems with are the quads who think the solution to all problems is more throttle on their heavy machines - which unfortunately they seem to be more than the small minority of quad riders

    Just my random thoughts...
    Biff, it's all about the attitude. Doesn't anyone think by now that the land managers are tired of hearing all the whining about how the other group is more evil then us? After a while they will role their eyes and tune it out.

    Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the same mentality of banning a group based on their mode of recreation? Think about it.. we where banned from places simply based on the fact we rode a knobby tired bicycle. We don't like that either yet we are doing the same thing we rebel against. So now we become part of the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the same mentality of banning a group based on their mode of recreation? Think about it.. we where banned from places simply based on the fact we rode a knobby tired bicycle. We don't like that either yet we are doing the same thing we rebel against. So now we become part of the problem.
    I'm fine with motos and horses. It's mimes I don't like!

    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Biff, it's all about the attitude. Doesn't anyone think by now that the land managers are tired of hearing all the whining about how the other group is more evil then us? After a while they will role their eyes and tune it out.

    Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the same mentality of banning a group based on their mode of recreation? Think about it.. we where banned from places simply based on the fact we rode a knobby tired bicycle. We don't like that either yet we are doing the same thing we rebel against. So now we become part of the problem.
    I think you mean hypocritical. I like your all inclusive attitude, but you've got no answers to my questions, only that we ought to hug and kiss or just accept everybody and never complain when one group destroys the others hard-work. Wacky.

    Bicycles and dirt bikes aren't the same things, so don't get too carried away. I think a lot of people here haven't had the chance to try and exercise in any forest where some moto are driving around ahead of you on the singletrack.

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    Electrik did a moto guy steal your girlfriend?

    Yes I rode moto in Mansfield. Yes it was illegal. I used my moto to keep trails open that didn't see enough mtb traffic to knock back the overgrowth. I am going to bet you have not been riding in Mansfield very long. At a time in the late 90's trails were being reclaimed by the forest faster than we could keep them open in Mansfield. The gates had gone up and trail moto riding was at a low point so very few moto riders were in there. We re-opened a number of old moto trails and I am willing to bet they've overgrown again and 99% of the people that ride Mansfield never knew they existed.

    As for the trail destruction, noise, and pollution. A trail bike like the Honda XR400 could be riding the same trail as you just ahead and you would never know. Quiet, 4stroke with low rpm torque delivery ridden by a competent rider you'll never know it was there. I am not saying that all bikes and all moto riders are perfect, a jerk on a Cr250 with no throttle control will damage a trail. But you can't lump all bikes an all riders into the same class, just like there are mtb riders out that that cause lots of damage to certain trails.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Electrik did a moto guy steal your girlfriend?

    Yes I rode moto in Mansfield. Yes it was illegal. I used my moto to keep trails open that didn't see enough mtb traffic to knock back the overgrowth. I am going to bet you have not been riding in Mansfield very long. At a time in the late 90's trails were being reclaimed by the forest faster than we could keep them open in Mansfield. The gates had gone up and trail moto riding was at a low point so very few moto riders were in there. We re-opened a number of old moto trails and I am willing to bet they've overgrown again and 99% of the people that ride Mansfield never knew they existed.

    As for the trail destruction, noise, and pollution. A trail bike like the Honda XR400 could be riding the same trail as you just ahead and you would never know. Quiet, 4stroke with low rpm torque delivery ridden by a competent rider you'll never know it was there. I am not saying that all bikes and all moto riders are perfect, a jerk on a Cr250 with no throttle control will damage a trail. But you can't lump all bikes an all riders into the same class, just like there are mtb riders out that that cause lots of damage to certain trails.
    I get that particular bit of Dufferin forest was once upon a time a place where not much would be made of moto, but now it's different. I haven't come across these super stealth riders yet. Most are on whatever they've got belching out noxious fumes and tearing around loudly through the whole forest. It is not cool unless you're the guy riding around with the grin of an idiot. At the other agreement forests in Ontario the moto guys stay out of the single-track or have totally thrashed any trail there it so there is no more singletrack.

    I think a guy on a mtb would have to work pretty hard to get up the level of a yahoo dirt biker in terms of trail damage.

    As far as helping dufferin forest i'm out for maintenance as of now. It is one of the worst in my experience for it's singletrack getting it's ass kicked by horses, moto and loggers.

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    The logging you'll never stop. It's county forest and they'll log it as they see fit.

    We can debate the moto thing till we are blue in the face and I don't think either opinion will change.

    The horse group has a right to be there, they don't have a right put undue wear on trails they didn't build.

    If this was still my home trails I'd be putting up a damn strong lobby to get them to build their own trails. I know years ago Ken talked to the person is charge of the forests and was given the green light to cut new trails.

    How much of the trails are being impacted by the horses? Could be that you guys that only every ride the one trail out of the parking lot need to go explore and find all the other goods in there.

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    This is the NASCAR of threads , constantly going in circles !!!
    This forest is grown for wood. It's not a nature reserve , you can't do anything about the logging
    Except stop the whining and pick up a rake & start again
    I've ridden Mansfield all summer , only saw one dirt bike.
    Horses , I see way too often and the damage is heartbreaking.
    I still think that if everybody cut ,maintained & stayed on their own trails
    We can share the forest

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    fortunately there are still a number of trails there that are untouched by horses.
    the horses will not go away but the mountain biking community is resilient and will keep fixing and building new trails and thats just how it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I think you mean hypocritical. I like your all inclusive attitude, but you've got no answers to my questions, only that we ought to hug and kiss or just accept everybody and never complain when one group destroys the others hard-work. Wacky.
    Answers have to be found by all involved. And besides Shirk has made exellent points but like the whole bike lane issue. You don't want to hear about it unless it fits your view. And that is the problem. That being to much of "I want it this way and screw everyone else" mentality.

    Here's a reality... development and such will destroy more trail in Ontario then anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post

    Bicycles and dirt bikes aren't the same things, so don't get too carried away. I think a lot of people here haven't had the chance to try and exercise in any forest where some moto are driving around ahead of you on the singletrack.
    Actually I have. A few times here as well as up in Whistler way back in the day. Add in Belcarra specifically the CPTA guys. Shirk will know the place and group I speak of. Back in 97 they invited us after a bike trials comp they put on to come play on their lines and such. Fun day... two different groups playing in the same are. Us marveling what can be done on a Gas Gas while they shook their heads at stuff we tried on our bikes. This in an area that was under their care. Yet they are willing to share.

    Then add in this- One of the local dirt bikers last weekend walked over and helped me shift a 400pound rock into position. He didn't have to stop it's not what he enjoys. But did more then most mtbers would ever do.

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