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  1. #1
    Gears, beers and slices..
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    Marathon Race #4 (August) - what's the mystery location?

    Any leads/rumours on the TBA location?
    Where can they do a race that large?
    New location or a repeat?

    (you could run a totally different course in Horseshoe/Copeland - there was lots of singletrack that never made it into the course)

    Haliburton Forest?

    Any ideas?

  2. #2
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    I heard it was back at horseshoe...I think Dan told Craig (Big Ring).

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    Also a chance of Kolapore area.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza_Royale
    Any leads/rumours on the TBA location?
    Where can they do a race that large?
    New location or a repeat?

    (you could run a totally different course in Horseshoe/Copeland - there was lots of singletrack that never made it into the course)

    Haliburton Forest?

    Any ideas?
    I heard that the promotor signed an agreement with Phat "Douche Bag" Tyred to run the race on "his" trails...This is groundbreaking news, literally.
    A bad day on the bike is better than a good day doing anything else...

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    Hey mtbmeister if your business can't give it away, it is not called a business, it's called a bad idea.

  6. #6
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    ???????

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Hey mtbmeister if your business can't give it away, it is not called a business, it's called a bad idea.

    What does this mean?
    your posts are so cryptic. I very rarely understand what you mean but you seam upset.

  7. #7
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    I heard the 4th race will be held at Horseshoe Valley. They are currently waiting on the approval from Deputy Mayor Mr. Phat tyred

  8. #8
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    oh, I hope, I hope that is not true... several trails including those down by the beaver pond are still destroyed... as of Sunday.

    I have emailed Dan and others in his organization politely asking questions about his group's plans to repair the area and remove the signage but nobody ever got back to me.

    this is not a staffed park and when the podiums are wheeled away nobody seemed to circle back to houseclean & repair. There are so many businesses out there looking to host this type of business and setup to house these types of events... I really, really hope that they support some of the local operations setup with the infrastructure to manage and post-op these races.

    The racing fans must also wonder if there is a shift away from the classic and traditional facilities... what will come of these facilities? I love having Hardwood Hills a few miles away, but it if they lose all these types of events what will come of it and others like it? would Mansfield still be a day to day option if more events were held there? I don't know.

    It really really concerns me that something similar to what happened to Albion could happen to an area or organization that is not lucky enough or organized enough to see the outpouring of support and volunteers that Chico has.

    to repeat myself...I am not into it myself, but I am not anti-race... just firmly believe that there is a time and place for them.

    it has also been repeated many, many times on this board that we should be sticking together rather than squabbling... does everyone disagree that races belong in areas designed and managed to hold races? if any mtb people saw the after math of this past weekend in Albion they would go bizzerk... what would you mountain bikers say if that mess at Albion was after a weekend of horseback riding? I know what my reaction would be! ....but I have been told that those trails were build, designed and designated for these types of events, so it will be fixed (as best they can) and life goes on.

    what will be the repercussions if we are unfortunate enough to have something like that happen to a multi-use area!?! I will suggest that as a group it is irresponsible to hold rain/shine events in multi-use areas for the sake of the mtb reputation... oh I know, there will be a fraction of the riders, no laps, rain will never fall like that again... but grow up, we have to account for these types of thing re-occuring when we are dealing with events where mother nature is involved and even a fraction of that mess would be a disaster (and was in certain areas particularly sensitive areas, last time)

    does everyone, except one other vocal dude , disagree?
    "an inch an hour...two feet per day..."

  9. #9
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    I hope it is at Copeland and they run a different course to mix it up a bit. It's nice to map that place out with the garmin.

    Harwood Hills did a good Raid 80 km event a few years back that started at HH and went up to Hoeseshoe and then back down.

    There are a ton more trails in there to use for sure.

    On a side note, I was speaking with someone who lives up in that area and rides a lot in Copeland and they seemed to think that the good majority of single track that has been built in Copeland has technically been built illegally ?

    Still a excellent venue for this type of event though.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer
    I hope that is not true... this is not a staffed park...there is a shift away from the classic and traditional facilities...I am not anti-race... just firmly believe that there is a time and place for them...races belong in areas designed and managed to hold races...what would you mountain bikers say if that mess at Albion was after a weekend of horseback riding...disagree?
    I do not disagree with most of your statements. I’m glad you have conveyed them in a clear, respectable, point noted kind of way, unlike some of the other b.s. that has gone back and forth in this forum lately. Not that I want to strike up a 5th thread that discusses trail use/damage/repair.

    I was in the first Marathon race at Horseshoe and read your concerns about having an event like that in your back yard. At that time it had seemed to me that the race organizer was holding the event in an attempt to benefit the trail system and the community with donations to the IMBA and the local food bank. While riding the trail I understood why you were so concerned about damage, that is a beautiful system and you are very lucky to be able to ride an area like that. I know why you care so deeply about protecting it. It is a different place, its more natural. Its not the “paved” type course you get in Albion or Mansfield, its naturally rugged, its for MTB riding not MTB racing I guess you could say.

    I’m not sure what the event organizer’s stance is on the damage that was caused and I don’t know how much damage was caused. I assume I know where the beaver pond is because there was one area (ran through twice) that was so muddy I walked most of it (the second time). I understand there was some garbage left on the ground and some signs left in place. I know I am part of the problem. To be honest I’m pretty ignorant in this area since I have just recently (last year) started riding.

    I do not know what I can do about the damage that has been caused. If I lived closer I would go and repair the damage, I would pick up the litter and take down the signs. Can I pay it forward? The mountain bike club I belong to has built an entire trail system in a city that had virtually nothing and I know how I would feel if excessive amounts of damage were caused by horses, dirtbikes or bike riders.

    I don’t want to argue about who is right or wrong about what happened at Albion or the Lake to Lake or Horseshoe the last time and I don’t know the full story in either of those situations. I just wanted to say I understand your sentiments and they have made me more aware for my future riding/racing because I share the same sentiments about my local trails.

    Perhaps as racers we can;
    1. Express our concern to the race organizers about excessive damage to the trail system via e-mail prior to the event.
    2. Offer to help clean up and repair the course after the event. If we do this to our local races I’ll clean your mess when you race here, you clean my mess when I race there.
    3. Perhaps the course should be re-routed before the event in the case of rain before or expected during. This will protect the most sensitive areas (i.e. beaver pond).
    Last edited by thedumbopinion; 06-25-2009 at 02:16 PM.

  11. #11
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    Bill - you have communicated your views in a well thought out and well presented manner. Much more effective, and a whole lot easier to respect, than the methods chosen by Mr. Tyred. I participated in the race at Copeland, and am sorry to see that the Beaver Pond area is still muddy. Unfortunately, it was muddy before the race and probably never should have been included. All of the other trails have come out without a mark, other than some being cleared of leaves. Except for some muddy spots, both where the race went and where it did not, Copeland is enjoying some of its best conditions in years.

    The water table seems to be very high this year, and we have also had a lot of rain - that has left sections of Copeland that are normally dry to have standing water. I would hope that Dan is more sensitive about this area, and chooses trails appropriate for the conditions.

    DumbOpinion - your opinion on this is not dumb at all, and I would be in full support of seeing a clean-up plan prior to the race. I saw what happened at Albion, and am confident that the 50 racers - regardless of conditions - could never do that kind of damage at Copeland on a 1 lap event. However, I understand that some signage was left behind, and to me there really is no excuse for that. The last race went well, except for some post-event forgetfullness.

    Copeland is pristine, and should remain that way. I would have no problem calling him out on the start line in front of the racers to explain his plans for post race clean-up and repair if necessary. If he is respectful of the environment, then this would likely not post a problem for him.

  12. #12
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    I am with BP.
    Take it for what it's worth.

    I enjoyed Dan's last event and I hope to do another...that said, with Mansfield closed to the public (probably because of me) I never had an opportunity to confirm that Dan 'left no trace'.

    I will miss Ganaraska as I will be destroying trails and raping buffalo in Colorado...so the 4th venue sounded good.

    Trouble is, chicken little type(s) (the s is really for courtesy) really terminated ANY interest I had in the what/who/how of the first Horseshoe event.

    If there is ANY truth to what BP says about trail wear or remnants from the last marathon I won't attend.

    Dan seemed like a stand-up guy, seemed like he had ample experience and more then enough in the way of qualifications to be putting on an event.
    Of course this would and should include appropriate dismantling, clean-up and repair. ONCE THE PODIUM WHEELS AWAY.

    With his events growing in popularity the NEED for each of these considerations grows.

    BP, thanks for the update.
    Keep us posted.

    Others, consider this event (series)...but do email Dan and get a feel for yourself.
    We need to support people that do the right thing and let the others slip away.
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    thedumbopinion "Can I pay it forward? "

    You just did.....most helpful......Thank you

    nogearshere

    "If there is ANY truth to what BP says about trail wear or remnants from the last marathon I won't attend."
    It must be a tall tail givengears we both know that racing does not hurt trails, want to go for a ride with me at Albion today, please???

    "We need to support people that do the right thing and let the others slip away"
    In your mind did Chico do the right thing? What about me? Should I just shut up and have my area Albionized?.

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    "Trouble is, chicken little type(s) (the s is really for courtesy) really terminated ANY interest I had in the what/who/how of the first Horseshoe event."

    givengears
    and what did you do with your interest in what/who/how of the first Horseshoe event.
    Had a good laugh I bet.
    Me too....how are your trails??? How was this weeks Tuesday night buddy?? Was it FAST???

  15. #15
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    Hi Bill

    Can we get some pics and locations of the damage and signage?

    Its been a wet summer and some areas in all parks have been muddy, I'd think it'd be good for everyone to see whats going on and discuss logically.

    If Dan really has left garbage there, and not gone to clean it up, I think the community will care as it is being discussed in a grown up fashion.

    As for what PT is writing, all i see is post after post that is hidden, I'm sure its great stuff though.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    thedumbopinion "Can I pay it forward? "

    You just did.....most helpful......Thank you

    nogearshere

    "If there is ANY truth to what BP says about trail wear or remnants from the last marathon I won't attend."
    It must be a tall tail givengears we both know that racing does not hurt trails, want to go for a ride with me at Albion today, please???

    "We need to support people that do the right thing and let the others slip away"
    In your mind did Chico do the right thing? What about me? Should I just shut up and have my area Albionized?.
    i'm sorry phat, i have no experience with special needs.

    this is not personal. i dislike the elderly, think dogs smell, have a low tolerance for children and only a moderate amount of sympathy for simpletons.

    i dont want to offend you further, so moving forward please proceed under the assumption that i don't understand you or what you're saying, before you've said it.

    defects such as yourself are entirely unworthy of my attention.
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  17. #17
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    I am surprised that the same kind souls that repeatedly ripped Dan's signs down before the race (according to Dan) were not inclined to do so after the event was actually over.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbgobie
    Can we get some pics and locations of the damage and signage?
    Its been a wet summer and some areas in all parks have been muddy.
    Not much to take pioctures of, really. It's really in very good shape up at Copeland, and there are really no remnants of the race. There are a couple of small signs still there from a running race, but even those are slowly disappearing.

    The Beaver Pond section is SLOWLY drying out, but it's so shaded that it likely may remain wet for the entire summer. It's a fairly popular little side trail, and it's clearly seen a fair share of riders since the marathon race. The mud is not the fault of the marathon race - it was muddy prior to the race, and continues to be muddy in low sections. It also continues to be ridden quite a bit by the public. All of the fresh tracks laid down in there the last month aren't from the race, but from the public. You don't need to avoid the trail, but merely carry your bikes over the mud pockets.

    Outside of that, the only other muddy spot patch left that may show remnants of the race is a 10ft long/wide mud pocket linking two doubletrack sections. The race ran through it, and probably made it wider, but it's even muddier today. I would think it's more to do with the high water in that area, and the lack of sun exposure. No matter what you do, you cannot avoid it so it too (like the beaver pond) is full of new tracks since the race.

    The irony, if there is any, is that both areas that showed any sign of damage were muddy before the event, and continue to be ridden after it by the public. Whether there was a race or not, they would both be showing a fair amount of tracks. Yes, the race should have been routed around the Beaver Pond - that's a no brainer - but in reality Copeland has seen more incidental damage done this summer by the recreational riders, and only because of the high water table.

    We may be led to believe by PT that it's a mess in there, but it's actually quite the opposite, and in the best shape it's been in years. No garbage, no signs, and no sign of damage of any kind from the marathon race and as usual, no people. The thousands of riders that PT predicted would flock to this once pristine paradise just has not happened. Just a couple of muddy spots that really just happen to be muddy anyway. Some years there are sections (like the beaver pond) that just don't dry out, and this is one of them.

    The thing about Copeland is that it's so lush and grows so fast, that you can run a race there and after a week of rain the foliage will be creeping over the trails again. It's a resilient little area - it a trail goes unraked for a season, the forest almost erases it after a year.

    All that said, if there is another marathon race there, then fine. It's fair for Dan to be accountable to clean up right away and route around low areas. If that happens - of he does what he should - it will be really hard to find evidence that a race happened. The area can handle a race/event of this scale with ease and still go on basically unaffected.

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    Thank you P_R.

    I've never ridden there, having met Dan in person on numerous occasions, I find it hard to believe he would knowingly leave tons of signs and garbage on the trails.

    Since most of us do not ride up there, we can only take 3rd party accounts in to form an opinion. Its amazing what respectable posts can do to form peoples of opinions of whats going on!
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbgobie
    Hi Bill

    Can we get some pics and locations of the damage and signage?

    Its been a wet summer and some areas in all parks have been muddy, I'd think it'd be good for everyone to see whats going on and discuss logically.
    I do not normally carry a camera, I was going to make an effort to on Sunday but with all the rain I did not. Plus anyone involved has seen the mess, as confirmed by others here...nobody I know has a 'before' shot for comparison anyway but in my opinion, which differs from some others here, it is worst it has been. I have not been back since my post-race inspection because I know it is a wet area that can only be ridden in the dries of conditions. I also generally carry my bike and tiptoe thru the area when it is unridable... I think most recreational riders do...? but that did not appear to be the case on May 17th

    I think the take-away here is that incredibly bad decision making and a severe lack of judgment was used to include this area in any race.

    I know other user groups in the area are already rolling their eyes at what resulted, this area is popular with foot traffic and is pretty unsightly right now.

    signage.. I personally hauled a few camelpacks of the stuff out, a few of the guys I ride with hauled a bunch out...I am assuming that this is how the place got cleaned up, eventually. I sent a couple polite notes to Dan and heard nothing back, I assume if he sent a crew in he would have notified me about it or corrected me? I have yet to hear from anyone who got feedback after the event... although I heard he was very quick on the replies before the events.


    Pizza... I disagree with a few of your points and do not share your view several observations.

    How long have you been riding this area? you say it is "better than ever".. come on, does that even make sense, you think it the area is more natural and pristine than it was 5 or 7 years ago? can we stop time? no but we do not need to put the accelorator to the floor either.... or maybe does "better" in your opinion mean more suited to racing? wider, harder trails with intersections ever few feet? I realize that "better" is a relative term so I wanted a sense of what you see as better. If that is your idea of better, then I see why we disagree so often.

    (a whole side issue here is that the stunt builders have infected the place and now large man made objects are springing up and large amounts of dirt being moved to accomodate big banked corners and jumps, attracting the attention of the authorities... and we all know with this WE ALL LOOSE. if anyone knows who is doing this, ask them to please stop or risk having bikes banned.... just part and parcel of an area gaining exposure with the wrong crowd)

    In terms of damage you want to compare an entire summer of recreational riders vs. one 4 hour race?... of course the rec riders are the bulk of the impact, the fact that you can even compare a 4 hour event to 6 months of recreational enjoyment is the sad part.

    And I feel that assuming mother nature will simply mop-up and reclaim our messes is both naive and irresponsible. In this day and age, you do not count on any forest to sweep our bad decisions and mistakes under the carpet for us.

    Any finally, in my opinion...and the couple dozen riders that I rub elbows with, Dan had his chance. He ran his race in an area unsuitable for race events, we politely emailed our concerns and voiced our opinions. He sent out some emails and even posted on this board assuring everyone that he would both clean up and fix everything after the race. So we took him at his word and avoided that bush on race day, however I have yet to see anyone, including participants nor Dan himself say that HE cleaned up or fixed anything... Pizza, can you say that Dan cleaned or fixed anything?

    Dan, please fill me in on what your group has done post-race. My name is Chris, I have emailed you many times with zero replies

    When Chico's race reeked havoc with a trails system (intended for racing) Chico jumped up and organized the repairs/clean-up. Substance Projects, and most on this board, put the onus on cleaning up on the very people who did not support the race in the first place. I am not convinced that anyone from Substance Projects did anything after the podiums were wheeled away. Trying to shame PT for not cleaning up after this race is really backwards, guys... I did it because I love the forest, not because I feel is should and it really pissed me off having to do so!!! (too be honest I was reluctant to take them for a few days because I assumed they would recycle them for each race, they are plastic and now stacks of signs will sit in my local landfill for 100+years)


    Also, I am VERY tired of this whole tread and negativity in general... but so long as people keep posting things that I disagree with strongly, will find the strength to reply. I feel that in this post, I might have finally found one of the root causes for some of the disagreement. Perhaps there are some that would prefer to see every trail system pounded and hardened and widened to match some of the excellent race facilities available in the area. I can see where you are coming from if that is your goal or agenda, it is counter to mine and so we will be disagreeing for a very long time and I dearly wish you would just ride 2 or 3 KM down the road to Hardwood Hills and find what you are seeking and let me ride what I seek. You can make a race track in a weekend... but the pristine singletrack only comes around once, charish it!
    Last edited by Bill Payer; 06-29-2009 at 08:04 AM.
    "an inch an hour...two feet per day..."

  21. #21
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    Since some people have forgotten how race directors get the go ahead to put on races.

    It's very simple really. 5 Peaks, Chico, and so on send a letter to the land manager in charge of the area. Groups like the TRCA and City of Toronto are a couple that come to mind. They look at the proposal and dates requested. They then make a decision and suggestions.

    It is groups like the TRCA who give the go ahead on these lands. If anyone has issues with permits getting issued then talk to them as they are the one's who give permission not the race director.
    If you hurt in your efforts and suffer painful dings. Then you are doing it right.

  22. #22
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    i did receive an email back from Dan.
    not sure if he wants the final locale made public yet but it won't be on the same trails.

    while i dont suggest mass emails, i would contact him directly with concerns/questions. incidentally, i received a response from Dan in about 20 minutes...maybe it was the low rumble of the camaro in the background...
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    wtf

    yes, I finally got my reply

    carefully worded.
    it won't be on the same trails
    seems they will pound a 'new' set of established trails in the same forest. ARRRG! I can't believe it.

    Once again being polite and laying low has left Dan with the impression that everyone is thrilled with his little race. A couple participants blow some sunshine up his butt and then drive off to their homes and someone is left with the impression that the 'most of the locals' all love the idea.
    Most of the locals, aside from those that showed up to block the start and finish,were very positive.
    ...does that sound right to you? when was the last time you had a race start and finish blocked by ANYONE? clearly there is a problem. I do not even know anyone who was there on May 17th...you have got to know that for every person willing to lay across the start line of a race that there are at least a dozen like minded individuals staying home... the couple dozen of unhappy riders that I talked to were silently letting this go down without a protest... only to get rear-ended again 2 months later, makes me really wish I had of confronted him on May 17th if only to be counted. I suppose I will get my chance August 16th.

    locals = people that frequent this trial system regardless of where they live.

    Sorry to vent on the board, I know that there is a push to project a more positive message and I usually do not post when I am upset.
    "an inch an hour...two feet per day..."

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer
    yes, I finally got my reply

    carefully worded.

    seems they will pound a 'new' set of established trails in the same forest. ARRRG! I can't believe it.

    Once again being polite and laying low has left Dan with the impression that everyone is thrilled with his little race. A couple participants blow some sunshine up his butt and then drive off to their homes and someone is left with the impression that the 'most of the locals' all love the idea.
    ...does that sound right to you? when was the last time you had a race start and finish blocked by ANYONE? clearly there is a problem. I do not even know anyone who was there on May 17th...you have got to know that for every person willing to lay across the start line of a race that there are at least a dozen like minded individuals staying home... the couple dozen of unhappy riders that I talked to were silently letting this go down without a protest... only to get rear-ended again 2 months later, makes me really wish I had of confronted him on May 17th if only to be counted. I suppose I will get my chance August 16th.

    locals = people that frequent this trial system regardless of where they live.

    Sorry to vent on the board, I know that there is a push to project a more positive message and I usually do not post when I am upset.
    Ok, so your not happy that a race permit was issued. We get it. However he got permission from the land manager. if one has issues with a race permit then complain to the Land Manager. They are the one's who gave the go ahead.

    Right now all your doing is basically whining on the internet about the situation. Yet if you want real change it's the land manager who has true control.
    If you hurt in your efforts and suffer painful dings. Then you are doing it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    The reality is that the trails are on public land. Which means there isn't alot one can do. The only real option one has is to contact the event organizer to voice any concerns.
    oh, I am getting so confused here...

    just kidding and you are right, this is helping nothing.
    "an inch an hour...two feet per day..."

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