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  1. #1
    namagomi
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    Lost art of the MTB group ride

    Take a minute to read through this.



    Is there a similar problem for recreational mountain biking clubs?

    What would be some of the rules about "raising" an educated eastern canada mtb member. Do you think that leaving the guy behind in the woods who shows up in the parking lot with a broke-ass bicycle is just rewards? Is it impolite to jump the cue when the group is stopped or to tailgate said slower rider until they "get it"? Is anybody telling these new riders not to cut corners or remove terrain features. Is it okay to tell a rider to come back when they have more skills because they're currently too slow. Will we be reaping the rewards with a generation of "wild" recreational cyclists by failing to shepherd them? Perhaps the idea of being domesticated disgusts you! Did anybody teach you some of the art of group mountain biking or did you stumble through all the various issues?

  2. #2
    No. Just No. Moderator
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    I like to give people a chance to see what they're about. Most good practices for running group rides are common sense, and I like to see whether people have that common sense before supplanting it with rules which - if force fed to them too quickly - they may never appreciate the reasons for.

    Having an appropriate pace and level of technical challenge that is communicated when gathering up participants for the ride, before the ride starts, often helps to nip any problems in the bud.

    The only practice I insist on as a hard and fast rule is to make sure before wheels roll that everyone on the ride knows what the commonly understood plan is in case anyone gets unexpectedly separated from the group as a result of being lost, hurt, mechanical, etc. It's no fun lying in a ditch with everyone else long gone. That's more of an issue on some routes than others.

    IMHO everything else can be handled by learning on the "job". If people don't seem to learn, or we have fundamental disagreements on the type of riding experiences we want to be out on respectively, I simply exercise my right to not ride with them again in the future.

  3. #3
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I like to give people a chance to see what they're about. Most good practices for running group rides are common sense, and I like to see whether people have that common sense before supplanting it with rules which - if force fed to them too quickly - they may never appreciate the reasons for.

    Having an appropriate pace and level of technical challenge that is communicated when gathering up participants for the ride, before the ride starts, often helps to nip any problems in the bud.

    The only practice I insist on as a hard and fast rule is to make sure before wheels roll that everyone on the ride knows what the commonly understood plan is in case anyone gets unexpectedly separated from the group as a result of being lost, hurt, mechanical, etc. It's no fun lying in a ditch with everyone else long gone. That's more of an issue on some routes than others.

    IMHO everything else can be handled by learning on the "job". If people don't seem to learn, or we have fundamental disagreements on the type of riding experiences we want to be out on respectively, I simply exercise my right to not ride with them again in the future.
    Alright, that sounds fine in theory... Let me cook this up:

    Eventually somebody shows up who uh, lets say is not catching on, improving or constantly gets carried away. You sit waiting and wondering - where the **** did Bob go? As the experience rider you opt to leave the group, but also do you not feel an onus to correct them or is it school of hard knocks all the way? Is it ok to leave Bob to the forest gnomes or should we pelt him with advice. The author of the article(in another piece) speaks kindly of the group leader who took him off the front to the back of the group and showed him how it's done. I rarely see this nowadays, particularly from racers(sorry) perhaps we're engaging too much in "egoistic" riding as the author suspects??

  4. #4
    No. Just No. Moderator
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    Are we talking about different timeframes perhaps? Below you seem to be talking about a single ride. In my previous post I am talking about a long-term "investment" in helping someone learn the ropes over a number of rides over time.

    Speaking directly to your point below though, it would take a heck of an extreme situation to make me bail on a group or rider during an actual ride. In for a penny, in for a pound, and when you start a ride with people under the expectation that you are are finishing the ride with them, then you're bound to it unless people are in a good position to split off without being in harm's way or feeling like they've been adbandoned.

    Patience is necessary. You can't hammer a newer rider with advice constantly, or they won't be coming back to ride any more - or at least not with you. Besides, if they eventually come to figure something out by themselves intuitively, the lesson sinks in deeper than if taught to them by someone else IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Eventually somebody shows up who uh, lets say is not catching on, improving or constantly gets carried away. You sit waiting and wondering - where the **** did Bob go? As the experience rider you opt to leave the group, but also do you not feel an onus to correct them or is it school of hard knocks all the way? Is it ok to leave Bob to the forest gnomes or should we pelt him with advice. The author of the article(in another piece) speaks kindly of the group leader who took him off the front to the back of the group and showed him how it's done. I rarely see this nowadays, particularly from racers(sorry) perhaps we're engaging too much in "egoistic" riding as the author suspects??

  5. #5
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Are we talking about different timeframes perhaps? Below you seem to be talking about a single ride. In my previous post I am talking about a long-term "investment" in helping someone learn the ropes over a number of rides over time.

    Speaking directly to your point below though, it would take a heck of an extreme situation to make me bail on a group or rider during an actual ride. In for a penny, in for a pound, and when you start a ride with people under the expectation that you are are finishing the ride with them, then you're bound to it unless people are in a good position to split off without being in harm's way or feeling like they've been adbandoned.

    Patience is necessary. You can't hammer a newer rider with advice constantly, or they won't be coming back to ride any more - or at least not with you. Besides, if they eventually come to figure something out by themselves intuitively, the lesson sinks in deeper than if taught to them by someone else IMHO.
    Just speaking about multiple rides with a club or social club where certain trends appear frequently enough that you can predict which rider will do what - (Jim and Steve are going far too fast and people are getting strung out, Bob snapped another chain... that guy never takes care of his bike and Cptsydor got a face-full of dirt again on a tiny jump and is crying)

    I'm also not down with leaving somebody out there in the woods and this is where the "art" of the group ride comes in.

    Particularly i'm now prodding at the fact that perhaps the "sweeper" as they are know in mtb should be the most seasoned lead rider in the recreational group. However it seems that the sweeper position ends up being somebody less skilled and experienced since there is a disconnect on what the philosophy or art of the group ride is(to raise responsible riders?). Most times the more experience rider is blasting it away with others in the front, but what sort of group ride does that encourage? For example - It seems we have a lot of racers on Ontario, but not a lot of advocates who actually do both. I don't even think it would occur to most racers that they could have an alternate role to fill in not using group rides as a hammer fest or leaving a bunch of those "tards" to themselves. OF course it can be overwhelming to train everybody first hand so perhaps that is why a list is needed?

    Yes, I have also seen weaker riders so smothered in advice they'd forget their own name if their mother didn't write it on their whiteys. That isn't surprising though since talk is cheap. Rarely does somebody take time to actually teach the rules or the art of a smooth group ride.

  6. #6
    sock puppet
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    i ride often with a group

    on the road and more often in the winter - MTB.

    my experience is completely contrary to what this guy is writing in his article. i am actually finding his article somewhat ignorant.

    he missed to mention one of the most important rules of group riding: choose your riding group carefully.

    Toronto donut ride is not for everyone. don't blame the group first, if the experience is not enjoyable. blame yourself for picking that group.

    The group that i ride road has not changed it's riding style the last 10 years, that i have been riding with them. at the beginning i would start with the group, but was dropped in the slower group after about 40kms. the group splits in two nowadays as well. no one complains and everyone shows up at the beginning of the next ride, the following sunday. everyone knows the drill. new riders get used to it. they choose to keep riding or find another group. it is on voluntary basis. the group is welcoming and shares knowledge and it's rules with new riders. i went to winter "riding vacations" to Cuba and Mexico with this group. we also went as a group to LaRuta...

    MTB riding groups are even more fun, due to the nature of MTB riding. we share our knowledge of bikes and skills within the group, trying to make each other better. no one gets dropped ever. however, there is a certain fitness expectation - meaning - one rider does not spoil fun for the whole group.

    so, i don't really understand where this guy is coming from. his concerns are not unreasonable, but i don't like the way he writes about them. generalization is an understatement. he takes the experience from one group ride and all of a sudden the whole recreational group riding gets painted pretty bleakly. not really sure about that...

    where i ride - i don't share his concerns...

    no one, no group can spoil my fun when i am on two wheels...

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Take a minute to read through this.



    Is there a similar problem for recreational mountain biking clubs?

    What would be some of the rules about "raising" an educated eastern canada mtb member. Do you think that leaving the guy behind in the woods who shows up in the parking lot with a broke-ass bicycle is just rewards? Is it impolite to jump the cue when the group is stopped or to tailgate said slower rider until they "get it"? Is anybody telling these new riders not to cut corners or remove terrain features. Is it okay to tell a rider to come back when they have more skills because they're currently too slow. Will we be reaping the rewards with a generation of "wild" recreational cyclists by failing to shepherd them? Perhaps the idea of being domesticated disgusts you! Did anybody teach you some of the art of group mountain biking or did you stumble through all the various issues?

  7. #7
    sock puppet
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    let me check something....

    ah of course, you did not join our ride at Copeland...

    we had a seasoned racer leading the pack and the whole group had as much fun as it could be had.

    did you go for group rides with racers, so that you are basing your comments about racers on first hand experience, or is this just one of many generalizations that you are making about sausage suits?

    as a weaker rider few years ago, i desperately wanted to be a part of the stronger group, so that i could improve my skills as well. also, as a weaker rider, i made sure that fitness was not my limiting factor, as i was seeking to join the stronger group...

    the key here is - choose your riding group carefully. if you do it - the potential risk of an intolerable mismatch is minimal...

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Just speaking about multiple rides with a club or social club where certain trends appear frequently enough that you can predict which rider will do what - (Jim and Steve are going far too fast and people are getting strung out, Bob snapped another chain... that guy never takes care of his bike and Cptsydor got a face-full of dirt again on a tiny jump and is crying)

    I'm also not down with leaving somebody out there in the woods and this is where the "art" of the group ride comes in.

    Particularly i'm now prodding at the fact that perhaps the "sweeper" as they are know in mtb should be the most seasoned lead rider in the recreational group. However it seems that the sweeper position ends up being somebody less skilled and experienced since there is a disconnect on what the philosophy or art of the group ride is(to raise responsible riders?). Most times the more experience rider is blasting it away with others in the front, but what sort of group ride does that encourage? For example - It seems we have a lot of racers on Ontario, but not a lot of advocates who actually do both. I don't even think it would occur to most racers that they could have an alternate role to fill in not using group rides as a hammer fest or leaving a bunch of those "tards" to themselves. OF course it can be overwhelming to train everybody first hand so perhaps that is why a list is needed?

    Yes, I have also seen weaker riders so smothered in advice they'd forget their own name if their mother didn't write it on their whiteys. That isn't surprising though since talk is cheap. Rarely does somebody take time to actually teach the rules or the art of a smooth group ride.
    Last edited by osokolo; 09-13-2011 at 09:29 PM.

  8. #8
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    We have this thing down here in the desert called hot weather. Group rides are mostly staged with a nomenclature that defines the pace, the group dynamic and the trail type of riding. It is based on the ABC system where an A ride is very technical, fast and has infrequent stops. You show at your own risk. A B rise is one where the technical sections might be the same as an A ride but the group will stop, wait for everyone after the section and continue on. A C ride is one in which the group waits for everyone at each top of hill, bottom of hill, trail junction etc. The trails are easier and the group is more social than competitive.

    The repercussions for getting lost or left behind is too great down here to let someone fall behind, so usually we have a sweeper, sometimes the ride organizer sometimes just someone that want to take it slow that morning. I noob or a person that shows on an incompatible bike might be ushered by the sweeper through the ride but they will also be recommended to not come to the next ride but try one of the B or C rides instead.

    If they keep coming we keep shepherding them, there is no other option than to read about a dead cyclist on the news later than night if we abandon him. Ultimately the safety of the cyclist is more important than the fun of the ride, some one jumps on the sword and we continue on.
    Try this: HTFU

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    ah of course, you did not join our ride at Copeland...

    we had a seasoned racer leading the pack and the whole group had as much fun as it could be had.
    Yup, and we had another seasoned rider who dropped back to make sure everyone was doing fine and took the right path.

    the key here is - choose your riding group carefully. if you do it - the potential risk of a intolerable mismatch is minimal...
    Unfortunately this can be a bit of a problem these days. When I started mountain biking 20 years ago it was very close to a community thing where pretty much every mountain biker knew each other or knew someone who knew that rider. It was much more close-knit so there was a greater interest in welcoming and helping new riders into the family. We'd take the time to pass on our wisdom to the new riders, someone did it for us so it was our duty to do it for the next group.

    Nowadays there's just so many riders that it doesn't work the same way anymore. We've fractured into groups that don't really talk or have much contact with each other, and as a result we've lost some of that sense of community and duty. It can be harder for someone starting out in the sport to find their way through the mess. Where do they start? How do they find the right group?

    I think the problem was caused partly by the rapid growth of the sport, we had so many people coming into the sport in such a short time that we didn't have enough experienced riders to pass on the wisdom of the elders. We had group rides go from 4 to nearly 40 people in something like 3 years. Many never got the chance to ride & learn from veterans, and some of those people are now the ones leading groups and passing down what they know. It also doesn't help that some of the experienced riders from the old days burned out and mostly dropped out of the scene.

  10. #10
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    ah of course, you did not join our ride at Copeland...

    we had a seasoned racer leading the pack and the whole group had as much fun as it could be had.

    did you go for group rides with racers, so that you are basing your comments about racers on first hand experience, or is this just one of many generalizations that you are making about sausage suits?

    as a weaker rider few years ago, i desperately wanted to be a part of the stronger group, so that i could improve my skills as well. also, as a weaker rider, i made sure that fitness was not my limiting factor, as i was seeking to join the stronger group...

    the key here is - choose your riding group carefully. if you do it - the potential risk of an intolerable mismatch is minimal...
    I'm not talking about the group who went to Copeland in particular and yes i've been on rides with people who are faster - who hasn't - so you should rest assured it's not about sausage suits. Saying that, sometimes those with great fitness really complain when lead through the technical stuff. IMO - It is more common to lose your riders there.

    The ride leader and his lieutenants were serious about their roles, because the safety of the group depended on you, the weakest link. If you did not follow the rules, you were chastised. Harshly. If you did, you became a member of something spectacular. The Peloton.
    Obviously it is important to chose the group which allows you to have enjoy the sport. The donut ride is obviously more towards the selfish end than the group end. Good to know. While we don't have many issue with riders crashing into each other there can be complications unique to mountain biking. I think it is equally important to offer something(like showing how to ride a feature) and not simply kicking that person out to the kiddy pool because they're a noob. What value can that impart - this isn't a categorized race, but a recreational ride - what is the philosophy there of it pretending to constantly be a race*? This is where the experienced rider should step up and practice some group-ride art, by being an ambassador and helping people out of that frustrating kiddy pool(before they start trashing the features and tech lines)

    Read this comment from the post:
    I remember when I started my first group ride in South Africa. Was 15 years old, cocky as hell, think I could drop everyone. The patron was an old Italian ex-pro (old at that time to me, he was 55). Moved to South Africa from Italy, he was in the marble industry. Only rode Campy C-Record on a custom Messina made from Columbus SL tubing. He rode up next to me within the first 2 miles and took me to the back of the group (where I belong according to him). He told me that he is going to show me how the handle the bike before I can ride up front. I think that is only part of it; he wanted to teach me the unwritten rules of the group. Said the first thing I should learn is how to ride without hands. He put his hand on my back and told me to take my hands off the handlebars. Only for 2 seconds at a time and only 1 inch above the handlebars….And so it started.
    *If you are training you ought to be doing it alone so you can follow your program.

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  12. #12
    namagomi
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    The answer cannot be really technology based since the question was more of a philosophical/ethical one. Most of us have cell phone coverage in these areas anyways.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Particularly i'm now prodding at the fact that perhaps the "sweeper" as they are know in mtb should be the most seasoned lead rider in the recreational group. However it seems that the sweeper position ends up being somebody less skilled and experienced since there is a disconnect on what the philosophy or art of the group ride is(to raise responsible riders?). Most times the more experience rider is blasting it away with others in the front, but what sort of group ride does that encourage? For example - It seems we have a lot of racers on Ontario, but not a lot of advocates who actually do both. I don't even think it would occur to most racers that they could have an alternate role to fill in not using group rides as a hammer fest or leaving a bunch of those "tards" to themselves.
    OK, to the point then I think you are cherry-picking an opinion based on your own personal observations which can safely be assumed to be limited to an extremely small sampling of the population in question. Not saying elements of what you or the article describe don't occur at all, but my experiences have trended toward the opposite.

    Sweeps don't have the be the most competent riders, or the most experienced within a group, they just need to be able to do the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Rarely does somebody take time to actually teach the rules or the art of a smooth group ride.
    Maybe you aren't feeling the love any more because you have progressed to the point where you don't look like you need as much hand holding?

  14. #14
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    OK, to the point then I think you are cherry-picking an opinion based on your own personal observations which can safely be assumed to be limited to an extremely small sampling of the population in question. Not saying elements of what you or the article describe don't occur at all, but my experiences have trended toward the opposite.

    Sweeps don't have the be the most competent riders, or the most experienced within a group, they just need to be able to do the job.



    Maybe you aren't feeling the love any more because you have progressed to the point where you don't look like you need as much hand holding?
    Well, i'm not trying to cherry pick something out of the murky cycling backwaters in which I apparently lurk! I do get where the author of the article is coming from though. I do see the reason for his complaints repeated off-road. Sure things aren't as cut and dry as they appear when it comes to deciding what is recreational and what people feel they're responsible for, but we can agree these rides are recreational in the sense that we're not counting coups(sprints) or breakways and other competitive shenanigins which aren't really the spirit of a safer recreational ride and belong more in a race.

    To clarify...before i get too much into what the author calls "egoistic riding". Some ideas might be...

    1) No passing over a yellow line might translate to no passing or racing near hikers or on narrow sections where you'll widen the trail.
    2) Hold your line might translate as no stopping the bicycle in the middle of the trail.
    3) To ride through the top of a climb translates as to ride through the top of a climb.
    4) To give the person ahead of you on a climb a little more room to dismount and not cause a jam.
    5) To give the person ahead of you on a descent a little more room to bail out so you don't run them over or hit them.
    6) To ride for months each year in the small ring translated as use a single speed and learn about cadence.
    7) To start with a humble bicycle so you don't like like a huge poseur or end up getting scalped on craigslist.

    I might not need hand holding, but i think a lot of beginners and groups in general can benefit from being shown the ropes from somebody who didn't flee the kiddy pools for the remote and technical back-waters after encountering so many violators of the sports various un-written rules they pulled their hair out!

  15. #15
    Evil Jr.
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    On rides that I organize, I tend to do the sweeping myself. Might sound weird but there's always at least one other rider (usually Mrs. Monster) that knows the route as well as I do and is capable of leading.

    I actually really like sweeping since I usually have a chance to chat with almost everyone as they drop to the back to eat, tweek their bike or just take a break.

    I find that in MTB group rides, one of the most persistent problems is the tendency for the newest or "weakest" riders to hang off the back and get dropped. I usually encourage them to move a little more toward the middle so that they have experienced people ahead of them (showing them the lines and generally setting a good example) and experienced people behind them (to dust them off when they fall down or help them with a mechanical).

    That being said, all my rides are no-drop, casual affairs. I let the distance (40km off-road or 100km road, for example) be the gate. Seems to work great!
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  16. #16
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    I do recall going on one group ride that had a pretty annoying individual. Probably what you'd call a racer-type, except I'd never seen him out at ANY races. Maybe he did the 24 hours. He was all spandexed up and totally dropped the group (including his just-out-of-hospital girlfriend) at every opportunity. The rest of the group informed us that he rode a singlespeed so he'd still be challenged riding with them. Total d0uche. Totally the type to still have his numberplate from Pond-to-Pond on his bike.

    Last year at Solstice while doing a solo on my singlespeed (and actually riding with dstowe, also crushing the solo field on his singlespeed), we were surprised while going up the Green Monster to hear a guy yelling "Singlespeeder, coming through! Singlespeeder coming through!" who proceeded to practically ride right over us. Turns out this loser had broken his bike and borrowed a SS from a friend of mine. Again, really? (Now, every time dstowe passes me, that's what he calls out.)

    It's these people who tend to stand out, unfortunately. There are some in every crowd.

    As for being taught the art of group mountain biking, I think it just comes with experience. If, on my first group ride, someone had taken me aside and pointed out every mistake I was making, I probably would have quit mountain biking.

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    GM = ride leader extraordineur

  18. #18
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    Maybe the group ride isn't a race.

    But it isn't a learn-to-ride clinic either.

    Unless it's explicitly advertised to the contrary.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    Maybe the group ride isn't a race.

    But it isn't a learn-to-ride clinic either.

    Unless it's explicitly advertised to the contrary.
    Indeed, a number of clubs (and shops) run very successful group rides that range from training type rides to beginner rides. These are very worthwhile.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    Maybe the group ride isn't a race.

    But it isn't a learn-to-ride clinic either.

    Unless it's explicitly advertised to the contrary.
    For me, group rides are usually an off-season thing so I may treat them differently than most people.

    I like them because they give me time to spend with people I usually just race against all Summer and others I don't see much because they don't race.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I find that in MTB group rides, one of the most persistent problems is the tendency for the newest or "weakest" riders to hang off the back and get dropped. I usually encourage them to move a little more toward the middle so that they have experienced people ahead of them (showing them the lines and generally setting a good example) and experienced people behind them (to dust them off when they fall down or help them with a mechanical).
    Back when I was part of group which used to organize & lead a ton of group rides, we put the weaker riders right behind the leader, who was either our best rider or the one most familiar with the trails. This way they got to see the best lines to take, when to brake & shift, and how to ride over various obstacles. It also kept the yo-yo effect to the mininum and prevented the group from being strung out, as well as giving the newer/weaker riders more time to recover at the top of a climb or other rest spot. Keeps the group moving at a better pace too.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Take a minute to read through this.
    He recites a long list of dangerous hack moves the group is doing.

    He says none of them want to me told what to do.

    Then he wonders why the advanced riders take off on them?

    Really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    he missed to mention one of the most important rules of group riding: choose your riding group carefully.
    I'm looking at this from the casual MTBer perspective...

    I always try to team up with MTBers that are a little bit better than me. That gives me the best of both worlds in training and enjoyment which is the essence of group riding is it not? We all have to have the same taste in Scotch too...very important.

    There is something to be said for riding with people who are much better than me and the perfect venue for this is at a 24-hr race - the group ride to the max so to speak. For example the teams I was on for the 24hr events were picked with everyone at the same skill/cardio level so there was a little bit of competition within the group which is good because we all knew that unless there was a massive food-borne virus that affected only the elite teams, there was no way we were placing above 30. There were also other teams at the same level - another plus for some polite competition. The added benefit was the fact that when I got passed like I was standing still by an elite MTBer it allowed me to try to keep up with them (albeit for a short period of time) and I can't believe how much that has helped in the way I pick lines or how fast I corner etc. now compared to before I started doing these events. I would equate that to having Crosby on my hockey team or Jimmy Page in my band.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerdgirl View Post
    last year at solstice while doing a solo on my singlespeed (and actually riding with dstowe, also crushing the solo field on his singlespeed), we were surprised while going up the green monster to hear a guy yelling "singlespeeder, coming through! Singlespeeder coming through!" who proceeded to practically ride right over us. Turns out this loser had broken his bike and borrowed a ss from a friend of mine. Again, really? (now, every time dstowe passes me, that's what he calls out.)
    a favourite memory of mine !

    And this ...

    "Maybe the group ride isn't a race.

    But it isn't a learn-to-ride clinic either.

    Unless it's explicitly advertised to the contrary." I totally agree with
    Cheers, Dave

  25. #25
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    Reputation: jrastories's Avatar
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    Group riding is a lot of fun, it depends on the group as to how it is run though, I find when I go out with a small group of friends (4 or 5 riders) we kind of know what type of pace the group is capable of, in some cases we stop at trail crossings, tops of hills and bottom of hills, other times if it is all fast riders we can pretty much say we will go to this point and just ride, take turns leading though the single track.

    However if I have the chance to lead new riders or new to a group of riders I won't bombard them with information but I will focus on taking them on a fun ride and encourage them as much as possible so they will join us again. Second ride I will take some time to show them the ropes, as the author of the article suggests. Then I see what the limitations of the rider are, what they know and what I can share with them, or if they are a seasoned rider we can just go rip and have fun.

    In the end the best part of MTB is the beer and stories after the ride!
    Rocky Element
    My Attempt at a Blog

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