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  1. #1
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    How Not To Coach

    Seb makes an exellent point. And I will now say no more as I don't want to off balance anyone's sensitivities.

    How not to…coach. | Spoke Magazine

  2. #2
    Evil Jr.
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    It can be very challenging for a talented rider to be an effective coach. So many things come so easily to them that it can be tough to break something down into its component parts.

    Even a putz like me can take for granted how many moves are now "automatic". You should see Mrs. Monster roll her eyes when I say something dumb like "This bit is easy - just a little wheelie-drop at the end..."
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  3. #3
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    Oh there is one other bit that needs to be said.

    Just because your kid is involved in a sport does not mean you should coach. Especially the same sport.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Oh there is one other bit that needs to be said.

    Just because your kid is involved in a sport does not mean you should coach. Especially the same sport.
    Unglued Jr. is still about a year away from organized sports but it seems to me that of all the potential coaches he could have, the one he would be most likely to tune out would be his dad. That's why you'll find me in the stands cheering, not behind the bench yelling.
    Strava made me do it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Oh there is one other bit that needs to be said.

    Just because your kid is involved in a sport does not mean you should coach. Especially the same sport.
    But if you actually know what the hell you are doing it's pretty good to have your parent as a coach.

    I grew up playing rep hockey and my dad was either coaching my team or my brothers team or the local Jr. C team. My brother and I got to spend a very large part of our time on ice with my dad. I learned lots from watching my dad manage the team in all kinds of situations.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    It can be very challenging for a talented rider to be an effective coach. So many things come so easily to them that it can be tough to break something down into its component parts.

    Even a putz like me can take for granted how many moves are now "automatic". You should see Mrs. Monster roll her eyes when I say something dumb like "This bit is easy - just a little wheelie-drop at the end..."
    That's so true. I'm an average rider at best but I find I have a lot of difficulty teaching things to riders who aren't as good as me. I really have to think everything through and try to give a breakdown but even then the results are mediocre. The only thing I'm ok at teaching is line choice.

    Strangely enough I have much better success coaching those who are as good or better than me. One of the guys I ride with was struggling with a drop sequence that I wouldn't even attempt on my bike, I was like "more speed, pre-hop the log drop, line it up and commit". Two runs later and he had it completely dialed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Just because your kid is involved in a sport does not mean you should coach. Especially the same sport.
    If it weren't for my dad coaching me, I'd likely still be playing tennis instead of mountain biking. So in this case I suppose it's a good thing he did coach me or else I wouldn't have gotten into mountain biking.

  7. #7
    namagomi
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    Yes... how to end up in a neck brace in 5 minutes. :P

    In general, never take advice from a pro(only his coach). They RARELY have any conscious concept of how they do it and lack the teaching skills to elucidate the technique in a meaningful way from the groms.

    It's funny also, because you'll get people swearing this and that about a certain piece of equipment and how its so important and makes them better, but it's all hogwash and placebo!! That is what you get when no scientific method is followed.

    Oh, and i'll add to that article - STOP scrolling through the cRC site, all these cafe racers and parking lot crit riders stop dropping wads on carbon wheels and shoes... at your level you'll get way better bang for performance buck by having a coach!! Your friends will be mystified how u beat them when your bicycle weighs 10lbs more!!

  8. #8
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Oh there is one other bit that needs to be said.

    Just because your kid is involved in a sport does not mean you should coach. Especially the same sport.
    Yup yup!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    But if you actually know what the hell you are doing it's pretty good to have your parent as a coach.
    I never had my dad as a coach but he was always involved in the things I did in one way or another. When I was a Cub Scout, he was a Scout Leader and so on...

    I guess I took it for granted at the time but now I realize what a lasting impression always having him around me like that left. Volunteerism, leadership and community involvement are just some of the invaluable lessons I learned from the experience.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    But if you actually know what the hell you are doing it's pretty good to have your parent as a coach.

    I grew up playing rep hockey and my dad was either coaching my team or my brothers team or the local Jr. C team. My brother and I got to spend a very large part of our time on ice with my dad. I learned lots from watching my dad manage the team in all kinds of situations.
    Unfortunately there are to many out there who really shouldn't be coaching. It's an unfortunate by product of the old NCCP system where a parent could take a couple of weekends of training. Maybe a few hours of practicum and suddenly they can coach. The process was to easy.

    Now it's more involved.

  11. #11
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    Involved sure, but its still around, just happened to get renamed to CanFitPro...


    *Disclaimer*

    I'm not knocking CanFitPro, I've just seen so many terrible trainers that have this and only this as their certificate like its some sort of key to being a professional trainer.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Stone View Post
    Involved sure, but its still around, just happened to get renamed to CanFitPro...


    *Disclaimer*

    I'm not knocking CanFitPro, I've just seen so many terrible trainers that have this and only this as their certificate like its some sort of key to being a professional trainer.
    Just to be clear, Can Fit Pro has nothin g to do with coaching in Canada. Two different systems.

    CDEP is way more involved than Can Fit Pro ever will be. I walked away from Can Fit Pro as it's more about making you spend money at some conference. Plus the recert stuff is useless unless you want to be an aerobics instructor... aka prance around to music like some Nancy barking orders to a bunch of bored house wiives.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    aka prance around to music like some Nancy barking orders to a bunch of bored house wiives.

    ...... so where do I sign up?

  14. #14
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    I coached ski racing for 10 years, and then went back to racing myself for the last 10 years or so. My youngest is a couple years away from becoming a Nancy Greene racer herself, and I have good examples to follow for how to coach your own kid. I plan to jump back into coaching for a few years while child #1 goes through the NG program, then child #2. At 9 or 10, I'll pass them off to other coaches, but I'm going to do what I can to get them to catch the ski racing bug. If they become snowboarders, I simply disown them.

    I could never coach anybody in mountain biking. I can barely keep myself alive. I expect my son will be teaching me more things than I'll ever teach him.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Stone View Post
    ...... so where do I sign up?
    Sorry. Can't help you. Having been involved with the gym industry for over a decade. Walked away from that aspect of it. Ugh... really brings out the clowns who have no clue.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by chansen View Post
    I coached ski racing for 10 years, and then went back to racing myself for the last 10 years or so. My youngest is a couple years away from becoming a Nancy Greene racer herself, and I have good examples to follow for how to coach your own kid. I plan to jump back into coaching for a few years while child #1 goes through the NG program, then child #2. At 9 or 10, I'll pass them off to other coaches, but I'm going to do what I can to get them to catch the ski racing bug. If they become snowboarders, I simply disown them.
    Having a mentor of a coach is a hugely overlooked aspect especially in the lower ages. Plus talking to other coaches both in your sport as well as others is overlooked. To often you see the whole keep it secret mentality going.

    Speaking of sharing, Learned this little tidbit from Shepley. Don't worry about their performances till they are 18-20, basically when they stop growing. Worry about their technical skills and teach them correctly.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by chansen View Post
    If they become snowboarders, I simply disown them.
    This.

    Ship them off to the salt mines in Siberia. Hopefully you get enough for a ski pass and skis in the sale.

  18. #18
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    This.

    Ship them off to the salt mines in Siberia. Hopefully you get enough for a ski pass and skis in the sale.
    As an aside i find people who have DH skied pick up the basics DH riding and cornering much quicker than average. I don't see much skills transfer from snowboarding though.

  19. #19
    Evil Jr.
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    Snowboarding skills all come out in longboarding. You should see the stuff kids can do around here down the Escarpment!
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    As an aside i find people who have DH skied pick up the basics DH riding and cornering much quicker than average. I don't see much skills transfer from snowboarding though.
    Interesting. Not true for jumping at Joyride though. Hayden Boucher, XC elite rider took to doing jumps with remarkable alacrity, which he credited to snowboarding skillz. Makes sense to me!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    As an aside i find people who have DH skied pick up the basics DH riding and cornering much quicker than average. I don't see much skills transfer from snowboarding though.
    Hmm.. somewhat. Having been a Alpine ski racer- slalom, GS, Super G, and DH. The biggest challenge isn't learning the skills. It's wrapping your head around the differences of crashing.

    I crash during a Alpine DH at Whistler I will slide, bounce, tumble, and in some cases do the Herminator.

    I crash during a MTB DH run you pretty much come to a screeching halt.

    Trust me... the differences in that area are immense.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Interesting. Not true for jumping at Joyride though. Hayden Boucher, XC elite rider took to doing jumps with remarkable alacrity, which he credited to snowboarding skillz. Makes sense to me!
    For jumping it is likely different, both skiing and boarding will apply as it is more about body awareness in the air than feet, hips and slope. I'm sure a gymnast could get the hang of jumping a bicycle even faster than Hayden.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Hmm.. somewhat. Having been a Alpine ski racer- slalom, GS, Super G, and DH. The biggest challenge isn't learning the skills. It's wrapping your head around the differences of crashing.

    I crash during a Alpine DH at Whistler I will slide, bounce, tumble, and in some cases do the Herminator.

    I crash during a MTB DH run you pretty much come to a screeching halt.

    Trust me... the differences in that area are immense.
    Hah, well crashing aside! Not supposed to happen I have seen a couple yard sales though on the DH... nothing like the herminator though.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Hmm.. somewhat. Having been a Alpine ski racer- slalom, GS, Super G, and DH. The biggest challenge isn't learning the skills. It's wrapping your head around the differences of crashing.

    I crash during a Alpine DH at Whistler I will slide, bounce, tumble, and in some cases do the Herminator.

    I crash during a MTB DH run you pretty much come to a screeching halt.

    Trust me... the differences in that area are immense.
    I've heard it referred to as "the price of failure." I'm not that afraid to fall on skis. I really try not to, and I have a very strong sense of self-preservation that has allowed me to pull off impressive recoveries from very bad situations. I'm a weeble on skis. I wobble, but I don't fall down. When I do, unless I slide into something, I'm generally fine.

    On a bike, all bets are off. I can fall on the most innocent looking obstacle. I will not try DH. I'm 38, and it seems my recovery time has doubled every 5-10 years since I was 18. I haven't even done a 360 on skis in years. I am, it seems, turning into a wuss.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chansen View Post
    I am, it seems, turning into a wuss.
    You're not alone. I've been getting steadily wussier for years now and it went into hyper-drive when I found out we were expecting. I can't fathom the thought of waking up in a hospital bed with no feeling below the neck...
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I can't fathom the thought of waking up in a hospital bed with no feeling below the neck...
    According to most wives this is a normal male condition.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    According to most wives this is a normal male condition.
    Ehhh, whaat? I thought it was the other way around. You'd think it would go the other way around with the age/risk taking also, but testosterone is a funny thing

  28. #28
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    I think Seb makes a good point.

    I had the pleasure of a private lesson with Ken Doraty in WBP last summer focused on jumping technique. We don't have any Dirt Merchants, Alines or CIUs out here and I found I was getting sketchy when the jumps got lippy. In a morning his instruction colossally improved my jumping. He was really able to assess what we were doing and then communicate what we were doing versus what we should be doing in terms that made it easy to visualize and implement. Exactly what you want in a coach/instructor. Super nice guy too!

  29. #29
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    I've got to say, I really agree with this. A good rider does not necessarily make a good coach. This was highlighted to me when I went to Ray's Women's Weekend. There were all these amazing female riders there trying to coach. Not all were that good at communicating. The most useful coaching for me actually came from guys who were trained coaches.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    As an aside i find people who have DH skied pick up the basics DH riding and cornering much quicker than average. I don't see much skills transfer from snowboarding though.

    The opposite is also applicable for DH riding to DH skiing

    I took DH ski lessons last winter at Hockley Valley (I had never DH skied before) After the 4th 1 hour lesson I was no longer snow ploughing. By the 6th lesson I was swooshing on the advanced black diamond runs. My coach was a mountain biker and his coaching style incorporated riding techniques I could relate to. I learned quickly how to take the corners with speed and shifting weight to the ski edges was very much like like DH riding (speed, balance, hitting powder, turns etc)

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    I've got to say, I really agree with this. A good rider does not necessarily make a good coach. This was highlighted to me when I went to Ray's Women's Weekend. There were all these amazing female riders there trying to coach. Not all were that good at communicating. The most useful coaching for me actually came from guys who were trained coaches.
    Nerdgirl brought up the other challenge with coaching. That being communication and is why there are so many coaches. They all are trying to pass on the same info yet they all do it slightly differently.

    The reality is while coaches try their bbest to get the athlete to grasp what they are passing on. Not every athlete will absorb that info from that coach for whatever reason. Yet they hear the same thing from a different coach they will suddenly get it. Nothing wrong with that as everyone communicates the same info differently just as each rider absorbs it differently.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chansen View Post
    I coached ski racing for 10 years, and then went back to racing myself for the last 10 years or so. My youngest is a couple years away from becoming a Nancy Greene racer herself, and I have good examples to follow for how to coach your own kid. I plan to jump back into coaching for a few years while child #1 goes through the NG program, then child #2. At 9 or 10, I'll pass them off to other coaches, but I'm going to do what I can to get them to catch the ski racing bug. If they become snowboarders, I simply disown them.

    I could never coach anybody in mountain biking. I can barely keep myself alive. I expect my son will be teaching me more things than I'll ever teach him.
    I want my ski lesson!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Unglued Jr. is still about a year away from organized sports but it seems to me that of all the potential coaches he could have, the one he would be most likely to tune out would be his dad. That's why you'll find me in the stands cheering, not behind the bench yelling.
    Yes. My experience coching is that my children have been the worst listeners to me. However, typically, minor hockey teams have 3-4 coaches, so I let the other coaches deal primarily with my Sons. Also, they listen to me 24/7 so I can understand not wanting to be bossed around by me at their leisure time.

    It is easy for parents to screw up this aspect of parenting. Our family had one epic fail with hockey parenting. After my Sons first "Rep" game, 2 levels higher than the hockey he had played the previous year - we didn't get the fact he had just moved up a level. My Wife, who knows nothing of hockey lectured him, then I had my 2 cents to add, then his Dad took a few shots (I'm his Step Dad)....The 10 year old mass of quivering tears did very well not to quit right then and there! The funny thing was the team had 5 coaches! Realistically, was there any advice me, my Wife, her Ex could offer that one of those 5 coaches missed? I doubt it. We FKed up.
    "I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Unfortunately there are to many out there who really shouldn't be coaching. It's an unfortunate by product of the old NCCP system where a parent could take a couple of weekends of training. Maybe a few hours of practicum and suddenly they can coach. The process was to easy.

    Now it's more involved.
    Nope.

    With minor hockey the Coach stream course or the Trainers course are both 8 hours. That's all it takes to get started.
    "I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    The opposite is also applicable for DH riding to DH skiing

    I took DH ski lessons last winter at Hockley Valley (I had never DH skied before) After the 4th 1 hour lesson I was no longer snow ploughing. By the 6th lesson I was swooshing on the advanced black diamond runs. My coach was a mountain biker and his coaching style incorporated riding techniques I could relate to. I learned quickly how to take the corners with speed and shifting weight to the ski edges was very much like like DH riding (speed, balance, hitting powder, turns etc)
    I was prompted about the skiing aspect again while watching this video. Pretty sure those guys do a lot of DH skiing also!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    It's funny also, because you'll get people swearing this and that about a certain piece of equipment and how its so important and makes them better, but it's all hogwash and placebo!! That is what you get when no scientific method is followed.
    Yeah, like flat pedals? Or 29'ers? Or singlespeeds? Or whatever the "in" thing is these days?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Yeah, like flat pedals? Or 29'ers? Or singlespeeds? Or whatever the "in" thing is these days?
    Yes, though singlespeeds and flat pedals have been around for over a century... in and out of course in terms of what's popular and better.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yes, though singlespeeds and flat pedals have been around for over a century... in and out of course in terms of what's popular and better.
    I'm thinking wheels with the so-called 29er rim size have been around an awfully long time too, if we're getting technical.

    As you said, what's old is new, and what's new is actually old.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie View Post
    I doubt it. We FKed up.
    Don't be too hard on yourself. I've been a Dad all of 36 days now and I've probably F'ed up at least twice a day. Every morning, we high-five and congratulate ourselves on another day of Theo surviving his parents.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I'm thinking wheels with the so-called 29er rim size have been around an awfully long time too, if we're getting technical.

    As you said, what's old is new, and what's new is actually old.
    GaryFischer crew may show up at your house with a black shoe bag for you to wear if you let their secret out!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I was prompted about the skiing aspect again while watching this video. Pretty sure those guys do a lot of DH skiing also!
    Watched that video this morning on PB. Tough climbing, awsome decents! Beautiful scenery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macming View Post
    I want my ski lesson!
    Let us know when you two can make it up. I will email you my race schedule. Pick a weekend when I'm not racing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie View Post
    Nope.

    With minor hockey the Coach stream course or the Trainers course are both 8 hours. That's all it takes to get started.
    Hmmm. Interesting as the whole NCCP program was revamped to the new CDEP. From what I was told it's supposed to take much longer. Class room is just the start. Then you have to do the practicum part- first spend so many hours with a higher level coach. But then it gets fun.. under the watch of a coach you have to run so many hours of practice and explain after wards what you did. Oh.. and then add in the special course on thlete and Coach relationship.. basically though shall not sleep with the 19 year old female athlete you are coaching.

    If you think a year is toigh. The level 4 is a 2 year process.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Don't be too hard on yourself. I've been a Dad all of 36 days now and I've probably F'ed up at least twice a day. Every morning, we high-five and congratulate ourselves on another day of Theo surviving his parents.
    Remember even when they got older. Your child doesn't care how much you make, how well you spell, ride a bike, or whether you write well. They only care about feeling safe, to explore the world, to prove to you and themselves they can do it, that you give them space to try, be there when they tell you they want you there, and many more.

  45. #45
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Wonder if it comes without footnotes, source credits, or bibliography as his previous work did.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Wonder if it comes without footnotes, source credits, or bibliography as his previous work did.
    Haha, prob... still some relevant techniques in the original books to skim through though they are a bit shallow. Main complaint being a few sentences for a complex sequence of moves or only a small discussion on say handlebar width.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Haha, prob... still some relevant techniques in the original books to skim through though they are a bit shallow. Main complaint being a few sentences for a complex sequence of moves or only a small discussion on say handlebar width.
    Kind of a sticking point with me. Whenever I did a project or essay for class it was pretty much a close to fail mark if I didn't have all that. And this was in high school, bording scool teachers can be real anal about that stuff.

  49. #49
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    Heard something mentioned tonight about coaching and sport. That the most important area of coaching is at the level 1 and 2. Basically the bottom. As this is where all the skills need to be gained to succeed as one gets faster and so on.

    Unfortunately the average people think that coaches are for guy's chasing podiums. Or in some cases think that instructor and coach are the same thing.

  50. #50
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