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  1. #1
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    A fresh perspective on Flats vs. Clips

    .

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  3. #3
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    so flats are faster into the turns, you tend to keep your heels lower, and ride more in the bike? i have such a hard time understanding those english accents...
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    so flats are faster into the turns, you tend to keep your heels lower, and ride more in the bike? i have such a hard time understanding those english accents...
    His English needs subtitling for the North American market... I got that flats riders have their weight back with heels down, better contact with the pedals, can dab easier, enter a turn with inside leg outstretched, and can get a tighter line. The clips riders are more evenly weighted front to back and can exit the turn more quickly, pedal more efficiently, and can be more aggressive about rough stuff that might buck a rider off their flats.

  5. #5
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    There was also a little bit about flat pedals require softer soles vs. a clipped-in rider, thus enhancing "feel".

    Good video. Not once did I consider that weight distribution was different for different pedals. Hmm...

    Great - now I have something else to think about when I'm out riding!
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Good video. Not once did I consider that weight distribution was different for different pedals. Hmm...
    It's something I noted in a previous clipless vs. flats thread; with clipless there's a mechanical connection to the bike which allows the rider to completely unweight the pedals & the rear end of the bike if required without getting bounced off the bike. With platforms, the pedals have to be weighted to some extent to keep the feet on them, and the best way to do that is the heel down method which requires the rider to be further back on the bike to make the force vectors work out (pushing straight down doesn't stick your feet to the pedals as well as pushing forward and down).

    As a hardtail rider, the weight distribution makes a huge difference in the way I ride downhills. With clipless, I can stay closer to the attack position and let the fork do its job at soaking up bumps while the rear stays light and floats over most things. With platforms I need to position myself further back and a bit more upright to weight the pedals and avoid being bounced off. This results in the rear wheel bashing into obstacles a bit harder so I can't ride the trails as fast as I can when clipped in. I'm riding more defensively instead of anticipating and attacking the trail.

    With corners I don't notice much of a difference since I rarely take them close to the limit unless it's a turn that I've done a bunch of times and totally dialed in. In which case I have a slight preference for flats just in case I push it a bit too far and mess up.

  7. #7
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    To un-weight the rear with flats, I point my toes slightly downward and yank my heels towards my butt and with decent shoes (Vans or 5.10s), it seems to do about as good a job as clipless. Not sure if that's DIR or DIW but I get by!
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    I'm not sure either, but I do find that while it is possible to unweight the rear with flats, I can't keep it unweighted like I can do with clipless. Comes in handy for riding rock gardens or stuff like this. I can do it with flats but it's definitely more work.

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    So Single Sprocket is correct?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    To un-weight the rear with flats, I point my toes slightly downward and yank my heels towards my butt and with decent shoes (Vans or 5.10s), it seems to do about as good a job as clipless. Not sure if that's DIR or DIW but I get by!
    That is the technique discussed in the book sand videos I have watched. To clarify, the heels down thing is usually for descending, heels up is for jumping, pivoting, and unweighting.

  11. #11
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    Interesting perspective!

    I was surprised that a lot of the DHers doing the dual slalom at Blue had clips and there was talk about how they made you faster. There are definitely costs and benefits to both. I ride flats at Joyride; clips on XC trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Interesting perspective!

    I was surprised that a lot of the DHers doing the dual slalom at Blue had clips and there was talk about how they made you faster. There are definitely costs and benefits to both. I ride flats at Joyride; clips on XC trails.
    Brian Lopes rides clips for certain events and flats for others. He also rides the same frame in different sizes depending on the application.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Brian Lopes rides clips for certain events and flats for others. He also rides the same frame in different sizes depending on the application.
    When I grow up, I want to be just like Brian Lopes.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    When I grow up, I want to be just like Brian Lopes.
    Son, you have to choose, you can’t do both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    So Single Sprocket is correct?
    yes it would seem so lol...

    about unweighting the rear end, it's more about technique then spd's, a little bit of front brake, getting your weight forward of the cog, pushing back on the pedals, etc. the trials guys do this really well and i see it done at blue also in full dh mode. i've never had a problems keeping my feet on the pedals in the rough stuff on platforms at blue (squeaker, sleaze, etc) or at mt saint anne. i took out a member of the bmbc who just picked up a dh bike to get used to the rig last night. since the person has ridden spds for a long time there was alot of relearning to be done. the trying to pick up the bike with pedals flat was one of the worst culprits and caused a few crashes on the jumps. as well as being in a to easy gear and just spinning your feet off the pedals. if you are in the right gear coming out of a berm or anything else it makes a huge difference in keeping your feet on the pedals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the trying to pick up the bike with pedals flat was one of the worst culprits and caused a few crashes on the jumps. as well as being in a to easy gear and just spinning your feet off the pedals. if you are in the right gear coming out of a berm or anything else it makes a huge difference in keeping your feet on the pedals.
    Every single experienced person I have spoken to has said that it is fine to ride Freeride & DH with clips, but essential to learn the proper habits with flats. Even when using pedals with clips, the experts are pointing their toes down and scumming the pedals to control the rear end, not pulling with the clips.

    As for gearing... I rode DH two weeks ago at Blue with my 32-19 singlespeed and flats. It could be that I was spending too much time coasting, but I’ve also learned through practice to spin in flats. If someone has learned in clips, they may need to adjust their style, but I suspect they can learn to handle any gear with flats.

    JM2C, I am learning myself.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    As for gearing... I rode DH two weeks ago at Blue with my 32-19 singlespeed and flats.
    That must have been some crazy cadence!
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  18. #18
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    Aaron Gwin 2011

    1st place, Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
    5th place, Fort William, Scotland
    1st place, Leogang, Austria
    1st place, Mont Sainte-Anne, Quebec
    1st place, Windham, USA
    3rd place, La Bresse, FRA
    1st place, Val di Sole, ITA

    Clipped in.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That must have been some crazy cadence!
    As posted in Eastern Canada before, I did some of my best work at very low speed with little pedalling at all. And yes, there are at least three places where I hop the rear wheel with my toes pointed down:



    p.s. Spot the dab

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Aaron Gwin 2011

    1st place, Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
    5th place, Fort William, Scotland
    1st place, Leogang, Austria
    1st place, Mont Sainte-Anne, Quebec
    1st place, Windham, USA
    3rd place, La Bresse, FRA
    1st place, Val di Sole, ITA

    Clipped in.
    Platforms.

    So, what are you trying to say?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    the experts are pointing their toes down and scumming the pedals to control the rear end, not pulling with the clips.
    Could you please describe how the experts do this pedal scumming?

  22. #22
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    maybe that the new generation

    of DHers could be faster clipped in... his data is all 2011, yours is kinda outdated...

    what do i know... just trying to help...

    i am just hanging for dear life and let the bike do the work while clipped in...



    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Platforms.

    So, what are you trying to say?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Could you please describe how the experts do this pedal scumming?
    I'm going to take a stab at this based solely on the description. Let's see how it goes...

    Using platform pedals, to get the same use out of your hamstrings and hip flexors as you might from clipless pedals, envision yourself "scraping" dog poo off the bottom of your shoe as you pedal past 6 o'clock.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Could you please describe how the experts do this pedal scumming?
    I am not an expert, so you are best advised to watch some of the videos from The West Coast School of Mountain Biking, or perhaps the Fabien Barel All-Mountain Video, or read Lopes & McCormick’s book. But for entertainment purposes only, here is my explanation of what I do:

    I have level cranks, chocolate foot forward. I am out of the saddle. I point both toes down and press backwards with my feet. I push forward on the bars and use body tension, which keeps my feet on the pedals and pressure on them. I’m wearing soft/sticky shoes (5.10s) and I have pins on the pedals to help.

    If I lean forward over the front wheel, I can pick the bike’s rear end up and move it somewhere else. Although you can’t see it from my POV in the video above, there were a few corners on the skinny that were too tight to ride, so I turned the corner with my front wheel, stopped, leaned forward, and hopped the rear wheel over in line so I could continue forward.

    Likewise when going off jumps and drops in flats, the same technique is used to keep myself in control of the entire bike. If I fail to point toes down on a jump or drop, I invariably come off the bike in the air or when it hits the ground, causing me to jounce off and take a chunk out of my shin with a pedal.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post

    As for gearing... I rode DH two weeks ago at Blue with my 32-19 singlespeed and flats. It could be that I was spending too much time coasting, but I’ve also learned through practice to spin in flats. If someone has learned in clips, they may need to adjust their style, but I suspect they can learn to handle any gear with flats.

    JM2C, I am learning myself.
    Not to hijack the thread but I find that ever since I started riding my Fixed Gear bikes (which happen to have flat pedals to keep on topic) I find I pedal more often on any bike in any terrain than before...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Son, you have to choose, you can’t do both.
    I normally just try to forget that the rep system even exists, but for this post I feel compelled to make an exception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Platforms.

    So, what are you trying to say?
    Gwin's domination of the WC this year is on a level even above Hill's previous good years.

    If we were do a matrix of the top 3 riders at each WC DH event for the last 5 years we'd see that clips outnumber the flats.

    Hill is a anomaly.

  28. #28
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    here's what one guide said...

    "Can you ride those trails on clipless pedals?

    Sure, but it’s no advantage. I will carry a spare set of pedals and shoes when people show up with clipless set ups. To date, only one person used them for more than one lap, and he admitted that he was “just making a point.”

    For maximum enjoyment, you should get a cheapo pair of flats and go out and do three or four hours on them at least before you get here. It’s always better to have the option available and not use it than the other way around."

    the advice was spot on, and while i rode with him i was a diehard clip in fan.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I normally just try to forget that the rep system even exists, but for this post I feel compelled to make an exception.
    Ditto but I did it for the skinny video.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    of DHers could be faster clipped in... his data is all 2011, yours is kinda outdated...
    My shit’s all retarded? What!?

    Just kidding!!! DHers could be faster clipped in. Gwin could be the first of an unbroken line of riders dominating in clips. Maybe not, maybe the next dominating rider will be in platforms. Right now it seems safe to say that clips don’t make you lose, but no matter how dominating he seems this year, we don’t have enough data to say anything statistically significant. It’s not like teh top ten spots at every DH race are taken by clipped in riders. Yet.

    Whereas in XC, there is no doubt. None of the riders on the WC circuit ride platforms, ever.

    Personally, I think we are waiting for someone to revolutionize technique. Someone may invent a new kind of dab or shoe that gives them a marked and obvious advantage, such that when we watch them race, it’s not just that they win but everyone can see that they win because of their platforms.

    Or someone may come up with something revolutionary with clips, such that again it’s obvious that what they’re doing could never be done with platforms. Gwin is winning, but it looks like he could beat everyone with platforms, he’s just riding their pants off!

    JM2C. FWIW, I think there’s a lot of room for innovation in the AM/DH/Freeride pedal area, especially when it comes to putting feet back on the pedals while jouncing down a difficult bit of technical rockery.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Ditto but I did it for the skinny video.
    Self-admission by rider of wild dab fail makes the skinny ride vid inadmissable for rep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Self-admission by rider of wild dab fail makes the skinny ride vid inadmissable for rep.
    I did it to prove a point about platforms.

    (ducks!)

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    I did it to prove a point about platforms.

    (ducks!)
    Point taken.

    BTW, with my pseudo ADHD I probably would have lost concentration after the first 12" of the skinny and bailed.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    My shit’s all retarded?
    How the heck did you get that by the MTBR auto-censor. Hmm...

    ****! <- See!
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    How the heck did you get that by the MTBR auto-censor. Hmm...

    ****! <- See!
    Maybe raganwald's account has been tagged by the moderators as being worthy of responsible use of **** so as to bypass the filters, as opposed to hacks like yourself who cannot apply it in the proper context?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    How the heck did you get that by the MTBR auto-censor. Hmm...

    ****! <- See!
    Getting shìt past the censor is pretty easy if you ask me...

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Getting shìt past the censor is pretty easy if you ask me...
    Aha, I see the use of the special character set now. So simple it's ingenious.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Point taken.

    BTW, with my pseudo ADHD I probably would have lost concentration after the first 12" of the skinny and bailed.
    Well, to move this back in the direction of “how things are different” rather than “which one is better,” As I’ve gained experience, the need to dab has gone markedly down. The one remaining reason I prefer platforms for dangerous stuff like high skinnies (the one in the video is lawyer-friendly) is to perform the “West Coast Bail:”



    Jumping straight up to bail off a bike with level cranks is impossible while using the clipless pedals I’ve seen. You’d need to twist to unclip and then jump off a moment later. This has nothing to do with DH but is significant when riding skinnies, logs, tough ride-overs and other low-speed but treacherous features.

    So honestly, I’m quite comfortable riding in either my Crank Brothers Candys or my Mallets. In fact, I had planned to put the mallets on for Blue, but decided to stick with platforms to work the skinny on Shotglass.

    Although I ride platforms nearly all of the time, I’m not religious about them being better. I believe that I learn better technique practising with platforms, but that is not the same thing as saying that I would be faster riding DH using them, or that I would not be able to ride the skinnies on Dr. Quads with mallets.

    (Okay, I admit that my heart would be pounding when facing a fall of four to six feet if I couldn’t jump off my bike with both feet.)

  39. #39
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    Lol!!

    i ain't even trying. i'd be in banana land in no time...

    still waiting for Circlip to present the matrix... until then no one is having the last word on this...

    not even shirk...



    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Getting shìt past the censor is pretty easy if you ask me...

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    Not that I profess to have any sort of advanced skinny skillz, but I can offer up that you may be surprised at the level of efficiency that can be achieved with a "west coast bail" using clipless pedals. Like the basic use of clipless pedals, a mix of practice/familiarity/confidence in the move makes for seamless execution on a subconscious level, to the point where it doesn't matter much if there's a quick twist involved instead of straight up and off. I'm not claiming it's 100% as easy or reliable, only that the difference may not be as much as one would think. YMMV.

    P.S. Using Eggbeaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Well, to move this back in the direction of “how things are different” rather than “which one is better,” As I’ve gained experience, the need to dab has gone markedly down. The one remaining reason I prefer platforms for dangerous stuff like high skinnies (the one in the video is lawyer-friendly) is to perform the “West Coast Bail:”

    Jumping straight up to bail off a bike with level cranks is impossible while using the clipless pedals I’ve seen. You’d need to twist to unclip and then jump off a moment later. This has nothing to do with DH but is significant when riding skinnies, logs, tough ride-overs and other low-speed but treacherous features.

    So honestly, I’m quite comfortable riding in either my Crank Brothers Candys or my Mallets. In fact, I had planned to put the mallets on for Blue, but decided to stick with platforms to work the skinny on Shotglass.

    Although I ride platforms nearly all of the time, I’m not religious about them being better. I believe that I learn better technique practising with platforms, but that is not the same thing as saying that I would be faster riding DH using them, or that I would not be able to ride the skinnies on Dr. Quads with mallets.

    (Okay, I admit that my heart would be pounding when facing a fall of four to six feet if I couldn’t jump off my bike with both feet.)

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    still waiting for circlip to present the matrix
    what...is..the...matrix??? (best said in deep Larry Fishburne tones for maximum effect)

  42. #42
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    the ... matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    what...is..the...matrix??? (best said in deep Larry Fishburne tones for maximum effect)
    you asked for it...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A fresh perspective on Flats vs. Clips-matrix_in.jpg  


  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    you asked for it...
    Post makes no sense. I cannot tell if they are using flats or clipless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Larry Fishburne tones
    LIke these?


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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Although I ride platforms nearly all of the time, I’m not religious about them being better. I believe that I learn better technique practising with platforms, but that is not the same thing as saying that I would be faster riding DH using them, or that I would not be able to ride the skinnies on Dr. Quads with mallets.
    I think this is something that gets lost every time we get a clipless vs. flats or whatever debate on here. There are trade-offs inherent to both types of pedals, the question is which ones work better for a person's style of riding and what he feels more comfortable and has more fun on. It's really that simple.

    I don't ride the same stuff nor have the same riding style as my riding partner, nor do I have his level of risk tolerance. Why the heck should I use the same pedals as him? That's like me saying everyone should ride the World Cup DH course at MSA clipped in on an XC hardtail just because I did it and it worked for me.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Gwin's domination of the WC this year is on a level even above Hill's previous good years.

    If we were do a matrix of the top 3 riders at each WC DH event for the last 5 years we'd see that clips outnumber the flats.

    Hill is a anomaly.
    You're saying clipless are more popular at, but not necessary to win WC DH events. All other implications are void.

    Also i'm wondering if anybody has checked out the correlation of broken collar-bones and AC joints to clipless. Pretty hard to tuck and roll with a bicycle still attached to a leg.

    About hopping - Constant abrupt "pulling up" with your clipless will give you a really sore lower-back. Not to mention that doing that requries more tension on the spring or you'll be in a pickle, but then you're in a pickle anyways because you've got the tension cranked up on the spring and will have a tougher time getting out!

  47. #47
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    actually this is something most clipped

    riders emphasize all the time... it is not which one is better, period! it is which one is better for any given type of riding...

    there was another debate a while ago on this subject which turned into a beating the dead horse after a few posts...

    i ride exclusively clipless, but don't really care what everyone else is riding as long as they are comfortable with it... clipless work for me, but i am not saying that they are better for everything else.

    there were a few that tried to conclude one is better than the other, period. coincidence or not, most of them were platform riders

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I think this is something that gets lost every time we get a clipless vs. flats or whatever debate on here. There are trade-offs inherent to both types of pedals, the question is which ones work better for a person's style of riding and what he feels more comfortable and has more fun on. It's really that simple.

    I don't ride the same stuff nor have the same riding style as my riding partner, nor do I have his level of risk tolerance. Why the heck should I use the same pedals as him? That's like me saying everyone should ride the World Cup DH course at MSA clipped in on an XC hardtail just because I did it and it worked for me.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    There are trade-offs inherent to both types of pedals, the question is which ones work better for a person's style of riding and what he feels more comfortable and has more fun on.
    And what trail you are riding. I recently bought platforms/shoes to add to my Time clipless/shoes, and I have no doubt I will be using both set ups depending on the terrain for the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Not that I profess to have any sort of advanced skinny skillz, but I can offer up that you may be surprised at the level of efficiency that can be achieved with a "west coast bail" using clipless pedals. Like the basic use of clipless pedals, a mix of practice/familiarity/confidence in the move makes for seamless execution on a subconscious level, to the point where it doesn't matter much if there's a quick twist involved instead of straight up and off. I'm not claiming it's 100% as easy or reliable, only that the difference may not be as much as one would think. YMMV.

    P.S. Using Eggbeaters.
    Very true. I don't un-clip and then put my foot down, I just put my foot down. I've had over the bar crashes where I end up literally jumping over the bars and landing on my feet on the ground (one time also with my bike on my shoulders). I don't have to think about un-clipping from the pedals, it just happens.

  50. #50
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    My observation is that unless someone has a very specific goal, the debate is meaningless for them. Most riders don’t have a specific goal. They can’t name a trail that they want to ride without dabs by the end of the season, or a race they want to win, or an amount of weight they want to lose or anything else. They simply want to ride and enjoy themselves. For such riders, the most important thing is that their bike fits and that they learn how to use whatever equipment is on their bike competently.

    Now if someone has a nice tight goal, it does make sense to look into whether their current equipment is going to get them there, and if so, what they have to learn to make it work for them. I don’t worry about Gwin vs. Hill because I don’t race DH. I do trials-y moves, so I use trials-y techniques and—surprise, surprise—the same style of pedals used by every. single. world cup. trials. rider.

    Only sometimes my goal is to ride with a pack of geared riders on a hilly course. Then I pull out the candys and stand by to crank up the hills. Again, I have a specific goal on the day.

    Without those goals, I could just ride whatever pair of pedals happen to be on the bike from the last time I had a goal. Pedals go round, bike goes forward, smile appears on face. Simple.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickboers View Post
    Very true. I don't un-clip and then put my foot down, I just put my foot down. I've had over the bar crashes where I end up literally jumping over the bars and landing on my feet on the ground (one time also with my bike on my shoulders). I don't have to think about un-clipping from the pedals, it just happens.
    I have many times been ejected from the bike to find myself running along while the bike crashes into the woods. I do not however remember any effort releasing my clips. It is just second nature I guess...

  52. #52
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    Some will like clips..some will like flat pedals...some will swing both ways depending on their moods.

    Ride yer fracking bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    My observation is that unless someone has a very specific goal, the debate is meaningless for them. Most riders don’t have a specific goal.
    That's a good point. For instance I was the rider in a photo shoot last week, it had rained the day of the shoot and I was required to ride over rocks and hit a turn at speed. And I'd have to repeat that run many times while the photographers dialed in their setups. Soft compound mud tires and flats were the order of the day. Could I have done it clipped in? Sure, but then I wouldn't have the confidence to push as hard and really lean the bike over time & time again in the turn.

    And if I'm riding at my friend's cottage where there's a ton of climbing? Clipless, no question, cause I suck at climbing and need every bit of help I can get to make it up the hills.

    But if it's just my local trails, whatever, I just go with whatever shoes I feel like wearing that day.

  54. #54
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    same here...

    hopped over the handlebars and ran 20-30 feet down the hill with my bike chasing me...

    Quote Originally Posted by egggman View Post
    I have many times been ejected from the bike to find myself running along while the bike crashes into the woods. I do not however remember any effort releasing my clips. It is just second nature I guess...

  55. #55
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    I find it hard to believe nobody is going to fess up to crashing will still clipped in.

    If you see the crash coming i'm sure you can get out, guess nobody has accidents





    Being able to push the bicycle away through your feet is handy just as when unexpectedly and unpredictably going otb not having the back of the bicycle attached to you is also handy.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    In a futile attempt to take the convo back to how things differ rather than which one is “better...” Perhaps this lucky person going OTB failed to adjust the shocks to account for having their weight more evenly distributed between front and back when using clips?

  57. #57
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    I'm going to both agree and disagree with you. Of course there's a greater chance of still being attached to the pedals in a crash when using clipless. However, speaking for my own experience the number of times that actually happens is remarkably rare, and I usually don't need to "see the crash coming" to have an outcome where I have detached from the pedals from a combination of instinctive motion and the regular jostling that tends to occur in many wrecks.

    Cute pics. Dude in first image has bigger problems than being clipped in.

    Lots of pics from DHers on platforms available on the web going over the bars too. XC riders go over bars. DH riders go over bars. That's part of the mountain biking, and everyone's number gets called sooner or later.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I find it hard to believe nobody is going to fess up to crashing will still clipped in.

    If you see the crash coming i'm sure you can get out, guess nobody has accidents

    Being able to push the bicycle away through your feet is handy just as when unexpectedly and unpredictably going otb not having the back of the bicycle attached to you is also handy.

  58. #58
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    nah... not more than taking a spill because I am NOT clipped in...

    did you ever take a spill because your foot could not "find" a platform?

    i'd say it is 50:50... one may take a spill because of clippless as well as not being clipped in... fair?

    look at all bellow pics of riders taking a spill because they were not clipped in:

    pic1


    pic2


    pic3

    horrible...

  59. #59
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    Oh man. If we are going to take a conversation about how one sets a bike up differently between clips and platforms to whether clipless pedals are or are not less safe than platforms, and if they are just as safe there is no need for platforms, and so on and so forth, I am going to ask each and every one of us to do a search of this forum.

    If whatever we are going to say has already been said, let’s just post a link to the original thread. Especially if this is something we have said before ourselves. Of course if you have something new to add, I have my finger on the “Add Reputation” button.

    When I started this thread, I genuinely thought that people would find the comments in the video interesting and fresh. Whether clips are less safe than flats while riding DH? Hmmm. Perhaps there is something new to say, surprise me if you can.

    But let’s try to keep the title of the thread in mind. The first three words are, “A fresh perspective.”


  60. #60
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    a big mistake n00b

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    If whatever we are going to say has already been said, let’s just post a link to the original thread. Especially if this is something we have said before ourselves. Of course if you have something new to add, I have my finger on the “Add Reputation” button.

    you must have missed the original thread... it was closed after UN security council unanimously voted for resolution #4475


  61. #61
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    i wish i could could magically change my pedals from clipless to flats every time i hit a technical section. because i dont like riding "dabby" rock stuff clipped in...so i'd unclip. then you cant frikkin ride right unclipped. i said, eff this, i'm going with good flats. but like i said, i wish i was clipped for the easier stuff sometimes, and the flat/clip combos didnt work for me.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    When I started this thread, I genuinely thought that people would find the comments in the video interesting and fresh.
    The video you posted to start the thread offered good content.

    As for endlessly rehashing the same topics over and over, what good would teh interwebz be if we eliminated that?

  63. #63
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    I will close my remarks with a true story:

    I used to take the Go Train from Oakville to Toronto. It works on an honour system. You buy and punch tickets, and every once in a while a transit cop inspects your ticket. If you haven’t paid, you are given a warning or $90 fine.

    I got to know all the cops on the line, and chatted with them. One senior constable told me his system for deciding when to let someone off with a warning and when to impose a fine. His rule was, you have to come up with an original excuse. Forgot? Nope, he heard it before. Running to make the train, no time to punch the ticket? Nope, he heard it before.

    What, I asked, was the last excuse to get through his filter? Well, he laughed, one woman explained that she had painted her nails and they were too wet for her to reach into her purse for the ticket, so she decide to punch it when she got off the train. he said it was brazen, but he hadn’t heard it before, so he let her off with a warning. he was looking forward to hearing that one again.
    I don’t always live up to it, but the ideal debate for me is one that follows the same rules: If it’s a new idea you haven’t heard before, it gets through. If it’s been used before, don’t bother. I know I’ve explained the West Coast Bail before, so I am not perfect. But that’s my ideal...

  64. #64
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    ding, ding, raganwald - rep award here

    this is ingenious - convertible pedals. platforms when you need them, clipless when you need them...

    if you say this is not refreshing - you are not being honest...

    rep points from me...


    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    i wish i could could magically change my pedals from clipless to flats every time i hit a technical section. because i dont like riding "dabby" rock stuff clipped in...so i'd unclip. then you cant frikkin ride right unclipped. i said, eff this, i'm going with good flats. but like i said, i wish i was clipped for the easier stuff sometimes, and the flat/clip combos didnt work for me.

  65. #65
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    haha, i thought my post was nooby and dorky, but hey, thats me. thanks snuggles, some nice person did boost me to 2 green balls. better than 2 blue balls.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    In a futile attempt to take the convo back to how things differ rather than which one is “better...” Perhaps this lucky person going OTB failed to adjust the shocks to account for having their weight more evenly distributed between front and back when using clips?
    Perhaps the WTC was primed for demolition by ultra-secret agents working for a radical faction of the american government. The fact is the building came down anyways.

    So point here is not why that bicycle is coming with her only that it is 100% coming with her and she is still clipped in and not getting out at that point until impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I'm going to both agree and disagree with you. Of course there's a greater chance of still being attached to the pedals in a crash when using clipless. However, speaking for my own experience the number of times that actually happens is remarkably rare, and I usually don't need to "see the crash coming" to have an outcome where I have detached from the pedals from a combination of instinctive motion and the regular jostling that tends to occur in many wrecks.

    Cute pics. Dude in first image has bigger problems than being clipped in.

    Lots of pics from DHers on platforms available on the web going over the bars too. XC riders go over bars. DH riders go over bars. That's part of the mountain biking, and everyone's number gets called sooner or later.
    Of course, but those not clipped in don't end up as awkwardly positioned and dare i say - in landing positions more prone to injury. I know that a REAL emergency crash almost always goes better when i'm not fixed to the bicycle. I can tie your shoelace together in a loose knot and push you if you want to see a demonstration of how having free legs can help a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    nah... not more than taking a spill because I am NOT clipped in...

    did you ever take a spill because your foot could not "find" a platform?

    i'd say it is 50:50... one may take a spill because of clippless as well as not being clipped in... fair?

    look at all bellow pics of riders taking a spill because they were not clipped in:

    pic1


    pic2


    pic3

    horrible...
    True terror, yes. I'm not saying clipless makes for more crashing only that if crashing it means your chances of a bad crash go up.

    Of course you can miss the platform pedal and you'll shin yourself or tenderize the gonad, but the flat pedals are wide and easier to find(as evidence by flats use in dirt jump). Easy to find pedals are nice as I found out the other night while trying to locate the business side of some eggbeaters in the pitch black.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    The video you posted to start the thread offered good content.

    As for endlessly rehashing the same topics over and over, what good would teh interwebz be if we eliminated that?
    Yup, not uncommon to watch somebody post a thread in a public forum only to then turn tail and run away since they fail to get "it". Some of the best threads are like that in spite of the op's personal and often boring wish for how the forum ought to be.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I find it hard to believe nobody is going to fess up to crashing will still clipped in.


    If you see the crash coming i'm sure you can get out, guess nobody has accidents





    Being able to push the bicycle away through your feet is handy just as when unexpectedly and unpredictably going otb not having the back of the bicycle attached to you is also handy.
    knowing how to ride a bicycle is also handy!
    'fessing up' to crashing? are you seriously looking for confessions your silly.
    rest assured, ive crashed with both clips and platforms, im sure everyone has and understands thats MTB'ing....sleep well buttercup.

    reading past threads, its clear you have a phobia of crashing (nasty crash pictures ect.. ) platforms are a great for you because they will offer you quick dismount in the event you lack soul! other positives for platform uses include, but not limited to, are: walking your bicycle, sessioning TTF's, standing in line for a 7 minute chairlift/gondola ride, walking up hills, tiptoeing through the tulips!

    thats what makes mountain biking great....
    so much variety, you can build a bike to suite your personal needs

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Of course, but those not clipped in don't end up as awkwardly positioned and dare i say - in landing positions more prone to injury. I know that a REAL emergency crash almost always goes better when i'm not fixed to the bicycle. I can tie your shoelace together in a loose knot and push you if you want to see a demonstration of how having free legs can help a lot

    True terror, yes. I'm not saying clipless makes for more crashing only that if crashing it means your chances of a bad crash go up.
    I apply probabilties in a casual way based on my experience, with a little bit of "what if?" mixed in just in case. The "what if?" of still being attached to my pedals isn't enough to warrant any change in my behaviour.

    What have probably looked like my worst crashes typically resulted in surprisingly little injury. The more noticeable injuries occurred from seemingly innocuous spills. While I can't count on that luck in the future, spending an inordinate amount of time and effort worrying about worst case scenario crashes and resulting injuries would not only ruin my enjoyment of the activity, but would probably also cause me to ride in a more hesitant and "tight" fashion, which as many of us know is one of the most common precursors to a crash. I exercise reasonable care within the context of my riding abilities.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    knowing how to ride a bicycle is also handy!
    'fessing up' to crashing? are you seriously looking for confessions your silly.
    rest assured, ive crashed with both clips and platforms, im sure everyone has and understands thats MTB'ing....sleep well buttercup.

    reading past threads, its clear you have a phobia of crashing (nasty crash pictures ect.. ) platforms are a great for you because they will offer you quick dismount in the event you lack soul! other positives for platform uses include, but not limited to, are: walking your bicycle, sessioning TTF's, standing in line for a 7 minute chairlift/gondola ride, walking up hills, tiptoeing through the tulips!

    thats what makes mountain biking great....
    so much variety, you can build a bike to suite your personal needs
    Not about knowing how to ride a bicycle. Don't be a snob -everybody crashes - and that is the point. No matter how you crash, crashing while clipped in is less safe.

    Now.

    Back in the day you didn't just pick tulips and walk up hills in shoes you could ride a mtb with them... at the risk of being nostalgic i'll just comment that it's too bad the world has filled up with so many albiotards and donut riders that are convinced they need $300 shoes and $150 pedals to ride a bicycle uphill. Getting out there in shitty ass tennis shoes and pushing the limit is the riding type that has soul in spades. Don't waste your time trying to tell me you've stalked me and that I don't have soul. I can smell a personal attack like that is just elitist and your bastardization of the word soul is probably heresy! I think you need to spend more time on platforms and less time talking about your thousand dollar wheelset and how you're not afraid. I don't know a person who ate the **** really hard and runs their mouth to another person who is afraid of crashing. Respect that.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Not about knowing how to ride a bicycle. Don't be a snob -everybody crashes - and that is the point. No matter how you crash, crashing while clipped in is less safe.
    You know what? Prove it. And by prove I mean hard actual statistics instead of stories about some guy who did so & so on clipless and broke his spine in 10 places. You made the claim, you go prove it, find the studies & statistics and post them here where everyone can see them.

    Everything else is just pointless arguing, because if I want to I can share countless stories about how some guy on platforms mangled himself in a crash and how it might not have happened if he were on clipless, and I can do the same with regards to clipless riders. We can trade stories, pictures, and videos till the end of this board and settle nothing, but if someone can pull out the cold hard stats it's effectively settled one way or another.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I apply probabilties in a casual way based on my experience, with a little bit of "what if?" mixed in just in case. The "what if?" of still being attached to my pedals isn't enough to warrant any change in my behaviour.

    What have probably looked like my worst crashes typically resulted in surprisingly little injury. The more noticeable injuries occurred from seemingly innocuous spills. While I can't count on that luck in the future, spending an inordinate amount of time and effort worrying about worst case scenario crashes and resulting injuries would not only ruin my enjoyment of the activity, but would probably also cause me to ride in a more hesitant and "tight" fashion, which as many of us know is one of the most common precursors to a crash. I exercise reasonable care within the context of my riding abilities.
    A total yard sale is not that common and those stupid little awkward low-speed crashes almost always seem to happen while clipped in. Like my physiotherapist said it's almost always the small accidents that bring people in to see them and it's one of the reason i'd never ride in the winter without a studded tire and am careful while walking down any stairs in the winter. Other poster called me paranoid, but when you see the stream of injured bodies coming through you start to think about how you can prevent it. The older I get the less i feel like mocking the guy in the full face. Hubris is a *****.

    The flip side to what you mentioned is instead of forgetting the added risk(and assuming you've calculated it) one can always just ditch the clips and forget the added feeling of being clipped in. Given time you probably won't be as unhappy with flats or a full-face as you suspect. It's more about the attitude than anything.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    You know what? Prove it. And by prove I mean hard actual statistics instead of stories about some guy who did so & so on clipless and broke his spine in 10 places. You made the claim, you go prove it, find the studies & statistics and post them here where everyone can see them.

    Everything else is just pointless arguing, because if I want to I can share countless stories about how some guy on platforms mangled himself in a crash and how it might not have happened if he were on clipless, and I can do the same with regards to clipless riders. We can trade stories, pictures, and videos till the end of this board and settle nothing, but if someone can pull out the cold hard stats it's effectively settled one way or another.
    I can't prove it, but i have good evidence to suspect it is so and i don't see you disputing it is harder to control your movements in a crash with 30lbs of bicycle hanging off your feet.

    Note, you can't prove your point either.

  74. #74
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    Exactly. You can't prove it and I can't prove it either, though we can both supply evidence to support our claims. It ends the exact same way as every other religious argument where nothing's settled and everything is taken on faith.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    As for endlessly rehashing the same topics over and over, what good would teh interwebz be if we eliminated that?
    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yup, not uncommon to watch somebody post a thread in a public forum only to then turn tail and run away since they fail to get "it". Some of the best threads are like that in spite of the op's personal and often boring wish for how the forum ought to be.
    if you want a certain discussion then do more to promote it and interest people instead of blaming the failure on the big bad internet people.
    You have spoken clearly, and I have listened. I will try to be more observant of what the Eastern Canada forum wants to talk about in the future. I will try to observe the tone and style of how the Eastern Canada forum likes to talk about these things and respect its traditions. I am guilty of ignoring the examples set for me by the various threads about platforms/clips and Albion Hills in the past. I have not respected the example of proper discourse set by those experienced members who sacrificed themselves to the ten day suspensions and those who made the ultimate sacrifice and were felled by the ban hammer.

    I will try to be worthy of an Eastern Canada thread about platforms or Albiotardiness before I dare to comment upon these weighty matters in the future. I thank you for correcting my errant thoughts.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Exactly. You can't prove it and I can't prove it either, though we can both supply evidence to support our claims. It ends the exact same way as every other religious argument where nothing's settled and everything is taken on faith.
    well said!

    studies show that if those that spend too much time posting useless info/pictures could infact gain confidience to ride basic Ontario terrain without dabbing if they focused as much riding there bicycles

  77. #77
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    It seems winter has already begun.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Not about knowing how to ride a bicycle. Don't be a snob -everybody crashes - and that is the point. No matter how you crash, crashing while clipped in is less safe.

    Now.

    Back in the day you didn't just pick tulips and walk up hills in shoes you could ride a mtb with them... at the risk of being nostalgic i'll just comment that it's too bad the world has filled up with so many albiotards and donut riders that are convinced they need $300 shoes and $150 pedals to ride a bicycle uphill. Getting out there in shitty ass tennis shoes and pushing the limit is the riding type that has soul in spades. Don't waste your time trying to tell me you've stalked me and that I don't have soul. I can smell a personal attack like that is just elitist and your bastardization of the word soul is probably heresy! I think you need to spend more time on platforms and less time talking about your thousand dollar wheelset and how you're not afraid. I don't know a person who ate the **** really hard and runs their mouth to another person who is afraid of crashing. Respect that.
    No thousand dollar wheelset here...simple steel everyday hardtail! though i do have a fancy dh frame/ desk lamp made in South Africa....

    No im far from an elitest...

    No i havent stalked you before, are you asking me to? would you be just as offended if i said no?

    No you may not have respect, you post as a child....go to your room.

    there are underlining issues here...with you.
    i have the slightest interest in uncovering them....its slight, none the less there is interest!
    please continue......

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    You have spoken clearly, and I have listened. I will try to be more observant of what the Eastern Canada forum wants to talk about in the future. I will try to observe the tone and style of how the Eastern Canada forum likes to talk about these things and respect its traditions. I am guilty of ignoring the examples set for me by the various threads about platforms/clips and Albion Hills in the past. I have not respected the example of proper discourse set by those experienced members who sacrificed themselves to the ten day suspensions and those who made the ultimate sacrifice and were felled by the ban hammer.

    I will try to be worthy of an Eastern Canada thread about platforms or Albiotardiness before I dare to comment upon these weighty matters in the future. I thank you for correcting my errant thoughts.
    Hah, I figure you were done with us and this disgusting vomit like un-fresh thread! I see you can't get enough though. Which makes sense because you did start it, despite your predilection for truly original discussion. Which AFAIK sounds like it stopped happening after your first golden post.

    Just remember young man, if somebody can train Quiz the cat to flush the toilet you can train Eastern canada to fill your thread with only the freshest of ideas!

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    It seems winter has already begun.
    That is a lie, but I can tell things will be muuuuch better this winter.

  81. #81
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    horror... a horror...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    It seems winter has already begun.
    one against the rest of the world...

    please see how the one tried to convince the rest of the cycling world how platforms are better than clipless for XC racing...

    Clipless or Platform Pedals for XC Racing?

    facepalm, facepalm, facepalm....

    please let this one die...

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Just remember young man, if somebody can train Quiz the cat to flush the toilet you can train Eastern canada to fill your thread with only the freshest of ideas!
    It's not my thread! I'll do my best to stay up late and watch things unfold.


  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Every single experienced person I have spoken to has said that it is fine to ride Freeride & DH with clips, but essential to learn the proper habits with flats. Even when using pedals with clips, the experts are pointing their toes down and scumming the pedals to control the rear end, not pulling with the clips.
    I honestly don't remember where I heard once that if you are going to ride clipless pedals DH then ride them the same way you would ride flats.

    This is pretty much how I have been riding lately, after a day of DH riding at blue I really got the hang of descending with my heals down, then I started to do that on my XC bike, and WOW what a difference. The same with controlling the rear wheel, don't use the clips to do it use your body weight and momentum to pick up the rear wheel. When ever I teach a new rider I always try to teach them how to un-weight the back of the bike rather then try to pick up the back wheel with the pedals.
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    knowing how to ride a bicycle is also handy!
    'fessing up' to crashing? are you seriously looking for confessions your silly.
    rest assured, ive crashed with both clips and platforms, im sure everyone has and understands thats MTB'ing....sleep well buttercup.

    reading past threads, its clear you have a phobia of crashing (nasty crash pictures ect.. ) platforms are a great for you because they will offer you quick dismount in the event you lack soul! other positives for platform uses include, but not limited to, are: walking your bicycle, sessioning TTF's, standing in line for a 7 minute chairlift/gondola ride, walking up hills, tiptoeing through the tulips!

    thats what makes mountain biking great....
    so much variety, you can build a bike to suite your personal needs
    You know, I don't always agree with what you have to say but for some reason, the way you say it always makes me smile.

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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    I honestly don't remember where I heard once that if you are going to ride clipless pedals DH then ride them the same way you would ride flats.
    Exactly, the OP video is further hogwash regarding pedal interface. I particularly enjoy the part of the video about how flats need to run a softer front suspension and firmer rear because the rider is backwards... well that is just genius.

    At least they didn't start about pedaling in circles.... pure ****.

  86. #86
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    Sorry if it has already been mentioned, but this guy has already unclipped his inside shoe. Can we get a better pic please?

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I find it hard to believe nobody is going to fess up to crashing will still clipped in.

    If you see the crash coming i'm sure you can get out, guess nobody has accidents




    That's better.

  87. #87
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    lets look at the cycling disciplines for an answer...
    bmx=platforms
    trials=platforms
    dh=mainly platforms (small percentage spds)
    freeride=mainly platforms (small percentage spds)
    all mountain= 50/50 platforms/spds
    xc=spds
    leisure riders=platforms
    road=spds
    though as was said in the past thread emotions come into play...

    anyway here is how i looked at the grouping

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  88. #88
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    As someone who makes graphs for a living, I have to say I'm having a hard time grasping that one.

    Anyhow, it's not a popularity contest; it's about using the right tool for the job.

    If someone asks me about the best way to drive a screw, I'm not going to suggest a hammer just because that's what most people have.
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  89. #89
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    The chart seems pretty clear. It is a probability curve of the type of pedal each discipline is likely to be using. Though it may not be elegant, I think it describes a pretty accurate picture. I agree that you should be using what is best for you and the what is best for the job at hand. If you are not comfortable with clipless pedals either in the trails or road, and are afraid, then they will not be the best for you no matter how much they are proven to increase performance. I run clipless on the road bike, and occasionally on the XC bike, and run flats on the trials bike and most of the time when doing trail riding or at Joyride. It's all good as long as it is good for you.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    The chart seems pretty clear. It is a probability curve of the type of pedal each discipline is likely to be using.
    Yes, but what's the x-axis? The disciplines should be in bar form if it's a random thing ("Discipline"). Connecting them with a line that looks like a normal curve suggests some sort of relationship is implied. What's between road and all-mountain?

  91. #91
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    Something to keep in mind, as explained to me a long time ago by a wise person: popular isn't neccessarily good and good isn't always popular. Case in point - Justin Bieber.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Yes, but what's the x-axis? The disciplines should be in bar form if it's a random thing ("Discipline"). Connecting them with a line that looks like a normal curve suggests some sort of relationship is implied. What's between road and all-mountain?
    Using a histogram is the wrong approach but if it's supposed to be a bar chart, I don't get the Y-axis either. Is it implying that not many road riders use SPD?
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Yes, but what's the x-axis? ..... What's between road and all-mountain?
    I have no idea. He said that's how he looked at it. He's free to look at it in whatever chart form he likes, even if it doesn't make sense to other people.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Using a histogram is the wrong approach but if it's supposed to be a bar chart, I don't get the Y-axis either. Is it implying that not many road riders use SPD?
    Good point. It's more of a matrix, really. I think he is saying that most road riders use spds.
    Really the y-axis (I think) is frequency of platform use. When it approaches zero, the implication is that the riders are using the alternative (spds). Given that, it seems fairly accurate.

    This chart completely overlooks Circlip's spindle-only pedaling system [/kissing the new mod's a$$]. And balance bikes are also off the chart.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Good point. It's more of a matrix, really. I think he is saying that most road riders use spds.
    Really the y-axis (I think) is frequency of platform use. When it approaches zero, the implication is that the riders are using the alternative (spds). Given that, it seems fairly accurate.
    Now I get it but using a normal distribution curve is still a weird approach. For instance, there's no reason to stick road and XC at either end. They could just as easily be stuck in the middle or anywhere else for that matter.
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    bmx=platforms
    Do you mean park, street, flatland and DJ bmx (a/k/a “tricks”)?

    Or do you mean bmx racing?

    (I’m guessing tricks if we’re talking flat pedals)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A fresh perspective on Flats vs. Clips-bmx_racing_action_photo.jpg  


  97. #97
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    I made a graph. Now, I just approximated the function based on the preliminary data I took, but it seems to fit with great correlation.

    Let us look to it for an answer.

    Yep, 42.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A fresh perspective on Flats vs. Clips-graph.jpg  


  98. #98
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    now i have not stated in the graph which is better, but rather how to visualize the users of both systems. i think the next step is to identify the largest user group and then look at injury rates. other then being hit by a car the greatest cause of injury on a bicycle is falling down... you can see what i'm getting at here... it also brings up some new questions. does one system have a higher rate of injury than the other system? if so then does the system that causes the least amount of injury the better system?

    this would be a interesting paper to write if someone is so inclined.
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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    I made a graph. Now, I just approximated the function based on the preliminary data I took, but it seems to fit with great correlation.

    Let us look to it for an answer.

    Yep, 42.
    Oh my, your asymptote is showing!
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    now i have not stated in the graph which is better, but rather how to visualize the users of both systems. i think the next step is to identify the largest user group and then look at injury rates. other then being hit by a car the greatest cause of injury on a bicycle is falling down... you can see what i'm getting at here... it also brings up some new questions. does one system have a higher rate of injury than the other system? if so then does the system that causes the least amount of injury the better system?

    this would be a interesting paper to write if someone is so inclined.
    Paper would never get published anywhere respectable. Far too many variables to isolate to make it a valid study.

    Children never ride clips, but have lots of injuries (cause they are just learning). Dirt jumpers are injured all the time, cause they push the limits. Old XC farts probably not as much, cause we rarely progress the sport and so on, and so on...

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