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  1. #1
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    The Father's DAy Summer Solstice 24 hour Lake to Lake Weather commiseration thread

    Starting a 24 hour race in pouring rain doesn't sound fun, but then the ATV trails knee deep in mud in 33 degree humidity could also be brutal. Discuss if you want.

  2. #2
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    Rumor has it that a secondary trail has started beside the ATV ruts. Apparently the ATVs got sick of riding in their own ruts and cut the grass along the trails. Thus we may not have to ride in the ruts.

    As for starting a 24hr race in the pouring rain, I'd only want to do that if I was going solo. I mean if your going to suffer....

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedumbopinion
    Rumor has it that a secondary trail has started beside the ATV ruts. Apparently the ATVs got sick of riding in their own ruts and cut the grass along the trails. Thus we may not have to ride in the ruts.

    As for starting a 24hr race in the pouring rain, I'd only want to do that if I was going solo. I mean if your going to suffer....
    Leaving aside the irony, that sounds promising.

    Those ATV ruts are like I imagine the cobbles of Paris-Roubaix to be. Pick a line, hope you're right, keep pushing a big gear, and if you screw up, GOOD LUCK getting going again. And if they're wet, Hell of the South-Eastern Niagara Peninsula

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedumbopinion
    Rumor has it that a secondary trail has started beside the ATV ruts. Apparently the ATVs got sick of riding in their own ruts and cut the grass along the trails. Thus we may not have to ride in the ruts.
    That rumour is some what true.
    On our pre-ride last Sunday there was one section that had ruts so bad the 4x4's and ATV could not even use the trail any longer and they started a new trail next to the mess of ruts. For the most part the trails are the same craptacularness except for the section that now has cross ruts mixed into the normal ruts, that was fun to ride...

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    Good luck to everybody getting dirty at the races this weekend. I look forward to seeing your pictures and reading your reports.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

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    Do MTB races ever get canceled because of wet trails?
    It seams that we are all pretty educated to stay off the trails in the spring time. This board would rip someone up for posting a " Man that was a muddy Spring ride" pic.
    But when the forcast is for muddy trails before a race all that is said is what tires should I use? Who is the fast guy in the mud? Boy that was a hard muddy one but we made it to the finish.
    Does anyone know what IMBA's stance is on Rain or Shine MTB events?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Do MTB races ever get canceled because of wet trails?
    It seams that we are all pretty educated to stay off the trails in the spring time. This board would rip someone up for posting a " Man that was a muddy Spring ride" pic.
    But when the forcast is for muddy trails before a race all that is said is what tires should I use? Who is the fast guy in the mud? Boy that was a hard muddy one but we made it to the finish.
    Does anyone know what IMBA's stance is on Rain or Shine MTB events?
    I don't think IMBA gives a damn about the ATV trails.

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    IMBA should care about all trails used by MTBers.
    I ask the question about ALL MTB racing, not a specific race or trail.
    Whats your thoughts coach, race on muddy trails or not?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    IMBA should care about all trails used by MTBers.
    I ask the question about ALL MTB racing, not a specific race or trail.
    Whats your thoughts coach, race on muddy trails or not?
    The price of being flippant means I'd better answer this.

    wrt to the ATV trails, I think an earlier post covered this. They suck. The only time MTBers are ever on these is during LTL, and perhaps pre-riding a little before. The ATVs have wrecked them. They are a deeply rutted confusing mess, and I believe enough to convince some riders not to return to LTL. I usually think that exact thought every time I'm riding them, but fortunately the second half of the course is much better, and I manage to forget enough to sign up again.

    I say trust that the organizers, especially when local, know and care enough about the trails to make certain route changes and/or modifications. It's not exactly possible to cancel or postpone a major event like the Lake to Lake, unlike my weekly series which usually has one rain-out every year.

    I don't know him personally, but I do know that the guy responsible for many, if not most of the trails in the second half of the race, Marv Srigley, races every year and is consistent top ten. I'd imagine that he wants the race to go on, but will no doubt be organizing post-race fix-up if necessary.

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    Marv is a great guy, whose heart is in the right place. The owners of L2L are lucky to have him. He stopped and had a chat about racing and trails with one of our Locals during a race held in our area a few years back. Great guy who will put a ton of time into any problem areas. Notice I did not say the owners of L2L would put that time into the trails. Perhaps the trails you speak of are on private property and can be fixed and rest before the next years pounding. What about a system that is used every fair weather day. How do you fix the damage?

    If I understand you correctly coach, what you said was there will be damage done during a wet race but you are fine with hoping the people you pay for the race will fix any and all damage. Is that a fair assumption from your post?

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    Oh, the flipping drama.

    I just love how everyone starts jumping up and down when it rains. How it's the most evil thing in the world rants. They go on about IMBA dogma and so on. Yet no one ever asks the most important question. That being, what is the soil, what the trail is built on?

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    Good luck tomorrow everyone!!
    Mud sucks, period.
    I'll be at Grand Bend, enjoying the heat wave. Beach time!!!!!
    High on Life

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    Welcome enduramil, what soil stands up to 100's of tires during wet conditions through a couple hour period? No one wants to talk about what should be done with racing during wet conditions. Perhaps you could explain how to ride with 100's of people through mud and have no damage done??? Good luck.

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    OK, it's getting a bit ridiculous. I am also getting tired of people whining about damage to this or that and what is IMBA blahblahblah. I am sure a race like this takes alot of time and planning and you just can't cancel a race the day before because it's raining. MTB is an outdoor sport and the weather is part of everything we do. Just go out and have fun, nature will take care of things. If you want super smooth trails with no rock, roots, ruts or bump just stick to road riding

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    Typical no mind racer boy attitude you have jcr. You do not care about nature at all just you number plate and where you place in the race. Just toss out any Gu packs you have during the race, it will slow you down too much to pocket it, after all you are paying someone to worry about these silly things. Dirt moved roots exposed what ever, who cares, the race must go on, we need more racing. blahblahblah.
    Boy I sure hope you get a chance to race the heck out of my Local trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Typical no mind racer boy attitude you have jcr. You do not care about nature at all just you number plate and where you place in the race. Just toss out any Gu packs you have during the race, it will slow you down too much to pocket it, after all you are paying someone to worry about these silly things. Dirt moved roots exposed what ever, who cares, the race must go on, we need more racing. blahblahblah.
    Boy I sure hope you get a chance to race the heck out of my Local trails.
    Yes, we get it. You hate the fact people have any capacity of fun. Unless of course it fits into your trail dictatorship rules of conduct. All this shows is that you are a disturbed human being.

    All that's missing is a pic of the poster at the trail head wearing jack boots and ranting IMBA dogma at everyone using the trails.

    I await the humorous PM of hatred that I know I will receive.

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    While reading your reply Mr. Phat "Trail Nazi" Tyred I remembered that you where also the one complaining and whining about the fact that people would go race your own trails for the 1st Marathon race @ Horseshoe Valley. Did Dan pick up the few signs that he missed or you are still riding by them all the time without picking them up. By the way, not to break your heart but there is probably another race schedule for your prestine area later this summer.

    Obviously you have no clue about the trails we will be riding @ the Lake2Lake. Those are 4X4 trails that have more chances of being improve by 1000 racers going by than getting damage. Anyway, I already spent enough time replying to the trail Nazi, I am getting ready to go get muddy and have FUN with thousands of other people.

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    enduramil ,I guess you are done explaining "the most important question" like you know or care.

    jcr ,I will swing by the beaver pond and see if the Marathon people have had time to fix the damage from the last race. I guess I will just trust they find the time.

    Trail Nazi, is that a person that does not like to hear about trails getting trashed?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Do MTB races ever get canceled because of wet trails?
    Here is your answer: yes. I was in the 24 Hours Of Summer Solstice yesterday when it was decided that it would become the 12 Hours of Summer Solstice.
    The trails were just too bad, getting too damaged and getting too unsafe. After cutting the lap from 17km down to under 13km, a "fast" lap time was about an hour and half.
    I love riding my bike!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HSCoach2
    I don't think IMBA gives a damn about the ATV trails.
    ATV trails are not in IMBA's area of responsibility, it's under whatever ATV group's. It's only when ATV retards decide to wreck designated MTB trails that it falls under IMBA and the local MTB group.

    I know of at least 2 police investigations into ATVer conduct.

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    I'm not meaning to start anything here but I do find it quite ironic that all this trail damage was done on conservation land. These are the same people that we (engineer types) have to jump through hoops for to get their approvals to do any type of work on land that they have deemed they have control of...

    BTW guys damage like this is not looked at lightly by the general public...Also, crap like this is one of the main reasons I got the heII out of MTBn and hit the road...

    Have a good one...
    "The meek shall inherit the earth"

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbart4506
    I'm not meaning to start anything here but I do find it quite ironic that all this trail damage was done on conservation land. These are the same people that we (engineer types) have to jump through hoops for to get their approvals to do any type of work on land that they have deemed they have control of...

    BTW guys damage like this is not looked at lightly by the general public...Also, crap like this is one of the main reasons I got the heII out of MTBn and hit the road...

    Have a good one...
    I was really impressed earlier today when I saw this in the Rouge, TRCA area of control.

    Hello, erosion disaster.


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    Enduraphuck ,"That being, what is the soil, what the trail is built on?"

    Please correct me if I am wrong, Albion trails are towords the sand particle size and L2L towards the clay particle size. Which soil type stood up to 100's of tires?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Enduraphuck ,"That being, what is the soil, what the trail is built on?"

    Please correct me if I am wrong, Albion trails are towords the sand particle size and L2L towards the clay particle size. Which soil type stood up to 100's of tires?????
    Ok, so first you swear at me in a PM and now in a post. Is that how desperate you are not only to prove your case but force others to obey you without question? It would appear so. All that swearing does is prove not only how desperate but how lacking you are in intelligence. Also how low class you actually are.

    Be advised. You have proven more than once to not only be a Troll but of a Trail Nazi mentality. I have filed the PM and such for in case it is needed in the future. If there is ever a suspicious incident at a race I will without reservation provide this info to the police. Because who knows how desperate you might become in the future.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Which soil type stood up to 100's of tires?????
    1000's

    as much as it pains me to admit it, this sport is dead without racing, dead.

    if your local trails WERENT made by or expanded by event organizers then they WERE made by people that were in some way impacted by racing. guaranteed.

    mtb'ers (in particular) DONT live in bubbles. i think its safe to say that ALL have experienced some form of racing or another...most likely in a positive light.

    this interaction (rider/event) is what solidifies the sport for many and introduces thousands of others. remember the 24hrs of adrenaline hayday? a veritable breeding ground of NEW/CASUAL riders - present co included.

    Phat. racing happens. in my opinion, it HAS to happen.
    ignore or debate it's influence (and necessity) if you must, BUT, the potentially (inevitable) bankrupting of organizers caused by 'acts of god' is not open to interpretation.

    expenses and commitments are made well in advance, non-refundable and totally without the option of garage-sale rain-days...if races were tied to fair weather, races stop.

    instead of venting on riders and organizers why not go to the source?

    why not go to the trca or YOUR local land manager and DEMAND that they change the terms of their land use contract. DEMAND that they remove the 'act of gawd' clause...make THEM put the business side of conservation on the back burner...
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    1000's

    as much as it pains me to admit it, this sport is dead without racing, dead.

    if your local trails WERENT made by or expanded by event organizers then they WERE made by people that were in some way impacted by racing. guaranteed.

    mtb'ers (in particular) DONT live in bubbles. i think its safe to say that ALL have experienced some form of racing or another...most likely in a positive light.

    this interaction (rider/event) is what solidifies the sport for many and introduces thousands of others. remember the 24hrs of adrenaline hayday? a veritable breeding ground of NEW/CASUAL riders - present co included.

    Phat. racing happens. in my opinion, it HAS to happen.
    ignore or debate it's influence (and necessity) if you must, BUT, the potentially (inevitable) bankrupting of organizers caused by 'acts of god' is not open to interpretation.

    expenses and commitments are made well in advance, non-refundable and totally without the option of garage-sale rain-days...if races were tied to fair weather, races stop.

    instead of venting on riders and organizers why not go to the source?

    why not go to the trca or YOUR local land manager and DEMAND that they change the terms of their land use contract. DEMAND that they remove the 'act of gawd' clause...make THEM put the business side of conservation on the back burner...

    Exactly right, cancelling a race because of weather simply costs too much to be a viable option. That does not mean that trail damage during races is a good thing, but it becomes inevitable. Since prevention (besides trying to pick a route which reduces damage to a minimum) of such damage is impossible and damage will occur, I think it is a fair solution that the damage to mtb/hiking trails will be fixed by the organizers of the race. Not sure if/how this is usually done but it could be done cheaply by means of organizing a volunteer trail build/repair day. I'm also willing to pay a little extra for an entry fee if this means that the trails will be repaired properly. Not only is this beneficial directly to us mtber's directly, but it would also improve public perception of the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nogearshere
    1000's

    as much as it pains me to admit it, this sport is dead without racing, dead.

    if your local trails WERENT made by or expanded by event organizers then they WERE made by people that were in some way impacted by racing. guaranteed.

    mtb'ers (in particular) DONT live in bubbles. i think its safe to say that ALL have experienced some form of racing or another...most likely in a positive light.
    You are a wise dude in the ways of MTB, but I take exception with your iron-clad guarantees. there most certainly are trail systems that were not made by racers, not one bit... and the only 'expansion' was the widening of the trails and rounding of corners caused by forcing large groups of spandex riders hell bent for a finish line a couple years after all the work has been done. Where have trails systems been build by race organizers? maybe Mansfield? is that how Albion came to be?

    and although it might be hard for you to believe... many, many mtb'ers have not experienced ANY form of racing... except the negative impact left by others that 'share' the trails with me a few days of the year.

    if you are into that scene, which I understand you are deeply into nogears... it may be hard to believe but please do not make sweeping assumptions and guarantees for the rest of us. There are still many of us who choose to ride (at least twice a week for about the past 10 years) for the pure enjoyment, I have never carried a 'chip', worn a heart-monitor or even a computer and never stopped at a feed station.... although I have stopped to watch many deer, bears, snakes and other critters. I am very committed to this scene but I have no urge to race. And you will have a VERY hard time convincing me that I would be unable to to continue to quietly do so without organizing these grandiose events every weekend in Southern Ontario.

    I like the quiet and the solitude of mountain biking, but I understand that others are looking for something different and I hope everyone can find what they are looking for on a bicycle.... I just believe that there is a time and place to race and this might not include every time and every place with a path in the fresh dirt.

    But, I did chuckle when PT stirred the pot with a question I have wondered myself... how all same people can shift gears from 'how dare you ride on wet trails?' to 'what tire should I race thru the mud with?' and so again against my better judgment I once again take the unpopular stance and post and at least try to call out the hypocrisy. (since I have been called out for riding in April my bad. )

    ...ahh well, for the sake of discussion it is good to get all the perspectives out on the table, right?
    "an inch an hour...two feet per day..."

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    excellent points bill, i cede them all.
    my statement about the influence of racing is that even pristine, virginal trails built without racing in mind PROBABLY (term modified) enjoyed the pulaski of someone raised/influenced by some form of racing.
    racing is an integral part of sport development.

    my point is, even people like yourself (racer free and loving it) were in some way influenced and shaped by racing...even if it isnt an event or organizer or trail there is someone in the mix of your life who was and did...if you follow.
    its like saying sure my parents are catholic...but i dont go to church.

    the question of flipping the switch - good analogy.
    spring time chastisers to muck-fest participants...interesting...no doubt we are lulled from outrage to acceptance through the assumption of responsible event organizers...can you say accountability?

    i saw accountability in the wee hours of sunday morning from sean and adam.
    i saw a massive outpouring of support and requests to 'assist'.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer
    Y
    And you will have a VERY hard time convincing me that I would be unable to to continue to quietly do so without organizing these grandiose events every weekend in Southern Ontario.
    Actually there would be a way to arrange such a event. They do it frequently for running and I have heard of at least one MTB race being organized. Though they tend to be called training events.

    http://www.clubfatass.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Actually there would be a way to arrange such a event. They do it frequently for running and I have heard of at least one MTB race being organized. Though they tend to be called training events.

    http://www.clubfatass.com/
    you...are...not...hearing...me, I am not looking for an event!

    different strokes, different folks.

    and don't worry, insult taken

    and thanks for considering my points, NoGears. I have no idea how you end up on podium after podium while taking 'the high road' time and time again.
    "an inch an hour...two feet per day..."

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    The Lake to Lake re-routed past at least two singletrack sections because of trail conditions. They cut short the Summer Solstice because of the same. I'll repeat my point from earlier in the thread, that I believe that the vast majority of race organizers care just as much about the trail network as any rider out there, perhaps because they help build or maintain them, or maybe becuase they want to use them again, or maybe they're just also avid MTBers themselves.

    Characterizing them as money-grubbing outsiders, swooping in and destroying trails while pocketing vast sums of money is very unfair. They're not pillaging Vikings, multinational clear-cutters or unscrupulous mining comapnies in a third world country, but I think at least two people on this thread think they're pretty much the same, and they couldn't be further from the truth.

    Hey, any racers want to commiserate about the weather this weekend?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer
    I have no idea how you end up on podium after podium while taking 'the high road' time and time again.
    i swear, i didnt inhale.
    plus its not performance enhancing...
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    Flow

    Trail Flow
    Water Flow
    Cash Flow
    Which one do you think race organizer are MOST concerned about?

    no doubt we are lulled from outrage to acceptance through the assumption of responsible event organizers

    nogears if there were trees breaking from the wind and lightning is that enough to stop the race? How about if the trails are in danger? How about people walking their bikes because it is too wet to ride? How long after it was clear that trails were being wrecked did they actually stop it???? Likely just long enough to protect the CASH FLOW.

    Some no mind dummy ran a race through my area and made the dumb decision of routing the race through an area that is a little soft on a dry day. At the time it was VERY clear that the ground was wet. It was a no brainer to stay away from this area BUT I guess we need to save MTBing and make sure we have a good race. Then I come on here and talk of how this will be repaired and what does our great community do? This race promoter is the greatest and you are a troll. I see why all you sheep need a shepherd.

    Nogears I do not want to point out the fact that you were the best trail destroyer at your own home trails and that through your own words make it clear that you are much more interest in CASH FLOW then TRAIL FLOW. SO how be I leave you racer types to rape singletrack behind your bars and say not a thing about it if you guys promise to support$$$$$$$$$ races in my area at Hardwood Hills only. The greatest MTBing location in Ontario with paid employees to handle anything MTB. But we all know why that will be a problem, which flow do you think this decision will hurt nogears.

    Enduramil at least you are consistent in how much you contribute
    PS make your case great because the cops up here that ride love me.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer
    you...are...not...hearing...me, I am not looking for an event!

    different strokes, different folks.

    and don't worry, insult taken

    and thanks for considering my points, NoGears. I have no idea how you end up on podium after podium while taking 'the high road' time and time again.
    Hmm, maybe I misinterpreted your post. It happens.

    Though your mention of non grandiose events had me thinking of the Club Fat Ass method of no fanfare or procession for an event.

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    phat, i want to give you the respect of a thoughtful response...but you haven't left me a whole lot to work with...skim through and bastardize the summary as it suits you if you're so inclined.

    bottom line.
    you got a relatively intelligent solution. contact the land managers.
    you want to put it on me...that's the easy way out.

    learn from the past.
    the green movement was GROSSLY RETARDED by hippies, hipsters and zealots that cried bloody murder when the g.p. didn't make radical, immediate and costly restructuring to their day to day lives in the name of CONSERVATION. people turning off taps and lights were mocked for not doing ENOUGH. so exaggerated and unrealistic were their DEMANDS that they were dismissed and ignored.

    it wasn't until someone (sadly that someone was the corporation and they did it for cashflow) found a way to MARKET green through SMALL manageable steps that people started paying attention.

    yourself and a handful of others that constantly ridicule and chastise are falling into the same trap...waggling fingers and whining incessantly.

    get off your hands. WORK to set reasonable, universal, enforceable goals/requirements that work hand-in-hand with land managers and race promoters or fade into obscurity and be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    nogears if there were trees breaking from the wind and lightning is that enough to stop the race? How about if the trails are in danger? How about people walking their bikes because it is too wet to ride? How long after it was clear that trails were being wrecked did they actually stop it???? Likely just long enough to protect the CASH FLOW.
    you understand that through appropriate use of tone, inflection and context you can successfully illicit the 'inner reflection' you desire with these sorts of rhetorical questions...in future try to refrain from closing with statements of opinion, you may also want to consider avoiding progressive questions that are so blatantly leading...it promotes resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Some no mind dummy ran a race through my area and made the dumb decision of routing the race through an area that is a little soft on a dry day. At the time it was VERY clear that the ground was wet. It was a no brainer to stay away from this area BUT I guess we need to save MTBing and make sure we have a good race. Then I come on here and talk of how this will be repaired and what does our great community do? This race promoter is the greatest and you are a troll. I see why all you sheep need a shepherd.
    i've got nothing here.
    i could also use some insight to the sheep shepherd thing...like hey mc cloud, get offa my ewe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Nogears I do not want to point out the fact that you were the best trail destroyer at your own home trails
    no, don't do that.
    incidentally, is there some sort of national standard you used to tabulate this result?
    are there cash prizes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    and that through your own words make it clear that you are much more interest in CASH FLOW then TRAIL FLOW.
    untrue.
    i love trail flow way more. and cash flow in this content does not apply...but i'm pretty sure you meant something else here...i'm just getting too tired to interpret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    SO how be I leave you racer types to rape singletrack behind your bars and say not a thing about it if you guys promise to support$$$$$$$$$ races in my area at Hardwood Hills only. The greatest MTBing location in Ontario with paid employees to handle anything MTB. But we all know why that will be a problem, which flow do you think this decision will hurt nogears.
    is this really a question?
    i guess i have to admit that i don't know why it will be a problem...i also don't understand why if i KNEW why it will be a problem, why i would have to answer a question inquiring as to what gets hurt...assuming of course that the answer i KNOW remains the same.

    our education system is fawked.
    clearly.
    Expert of the Internet.
    BECAUSE I SAID SO

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