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  1. #1
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    Dundas - Trail “Hot Head” vs Conservation Authority.

    Dundas - Trail “Hot Head” vs Conservation Authority.
    I will “Grant” you that this is something I would call unusual, for a Sunday long weekend ride.
    Not that there was a new tree across the trail, easily ridden over. The fact, I watched a guy get off his bike and walk over making me stop behind him. He apologized for making me stop and we talked for a few minutes, off the side of the trail. Here comes someone else from the other direction he too is older and stops to walk over the fallen tree. Nicely built up by the way, top hacked off, good branches and dirt packing on each side. So thanks to whoever dud that. Back to the second guy who stopped. Few minutes chatting about how the log destroys the flow for these guys, they move on. Well, I pull out my saw pick a spot and start cutting. In the next hour I was there, 3 more guys went by, and a guy with his 12yr old son (my guess). Everyone stopped and walked over saying thanks for removing the tree. Then the “hot head“comes. Part of a trio. Starts immediately with attitude on what I am doing, and is all pissed off. Saying I am getting rid of a perfectly easy to ride over trail feature, and who cares about the people that cannot ride over it, they need to learn. Before I get further into this, remember the reason I am doing this. The other riders. So the trio consists of “Hot Head”, “Sensible Woman” who tells him to keep going, what he is doing never does any good. The last guy is easy going, actually wished me a good day. After they finally ride away I still hear him beaking off. To the other two riders – my sympathies.

    Now the Conservation Authority does not want the trails widened, period. You can remove something.. but it is considered bad to make an alternate path, odd to me but that is why they only maintain sanctioned trails. So my normal policy is to remove the obstacle and that is that. As I was planning to do in this case. I like riding obstacles. But it would seem this one was spoiling others rides. Plus I am all for EVERYONE enjoying the trails.

    I had no investment other than the hour and a half I spent cutting the downed tree (forgot my big saw).
    More people seemed to appreciate the fact it would be removed restoring “flow”, yet as usual you cannot please everyone. I did do something I would normally not have done. See the pic. I made a bypass. So “Hot Head Guy”, I and others can ride the obstacle and riders not comfortable with it can use the bypass.
    As I said to the trio there are always 2 sides to the story.
    There are those that would be offended by being verbally assaulted while doing “trail maintenance”, and immediately give attitude back. I am not one of them, I think that the trails are for everyone. Plus I share “Hot Heads” thinking in terms of tail features, but respect that there are others in greater number. Come to think of it if you were not respectful of me and you kept lamenting over my actions it worries me. We have enough issues with the CA and horse riders thinking we should be banned from the trails. Horse riders because of disrespectful riders and CA because of invasive seed spreading.
    So “Hot Head Guy” if you read this I hope you think of me and others not just yourself next time you ride over the log.
    I want to make the trails more challenging too, but I do not do it on what I consider a multi use main trail.
    Even if it is not a CA sanctioned trail.
    I would love to see more of what Christie has to offer here in the valley too.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dundas - Trail “Hot Head” vs Conservation Authority.-trail1.jpg  

    night riding - it's an adiction

  2. #2
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    nice work. I rode dundas yesterday but didn't see this. Looks pretty smart. As far as hothead, I doubt that he has done trail work, but believes that he rules the trails. Glad you didn't let him change your attitude.

  3. #3
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    Dundas - Trail “Hot Head” vs Conservation Authority.

    I'd have either cleared it from the main path or just left it alone. You're encouraging alternate lines and trail braiding which the conservationists abhor.

    FWIW, it's not that big of a log and it looks like its been down for quite a while and is worn down.

  4. #4
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    Thanks for posting this. it gives rise to an interesting debate.

    On the one hand I get what you are saying, and appreciate the fact that you put some real time and thought into this modification, rather than riding on a really good day for it. Also, I in no way condone Mr Hot Head's behaviour or attitude.

    But on the other hand, would the safer course not be to mention this log to the CA after your rude, explain how it spoils the flow on a main trail which riders of all levels ride, and leave it to them to deal with rather than taking matters into your own hands. When riders start modifying trails of their own volution (either building obstacles or removing them), no matter how good their intentions, it can easily become a slippery slope.

    Thoughts?
    Strava made me do it....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyjack View Post
    I'd have either cleared it from the main path or just left it alone. You're encouraging alternate lines and trail braiding which the conservationists abhor.

    .
    General rule is that the log is in play. If an easy route is wanted meaning a small cut out made. Then it has to be to to the side of what is in use. Looking at the pic logic is to do it pic left as it doesn't have the down slope in pic left. Less chance of beginner looking down it, launching themselves DH, and needing rescue with a side of ER.



    Far to often people cut the whole centre section out which is bad form.

  6. #6
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    Dundas - Trail “Hot Head” vs Conservation Authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    General rule is that the log is in play. If an easy route is wanted meaning a small cut out made. Then it has to be to to the side of what is in use. Looking at the pic logic is to do it pic left as it doesn't have the down slope in pic left. Less chance of beginner looking down it, launching themselves DH, and needing rescue with a side of ER.



    Far to often people cut the whole centre section out which is bad form.
    I get what you're saying, but in my neck of the woods they frown upon trail expansion, so we'd either live with it or take it out.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyjack View Post
    I get what you're saying, but in my neck of the woods they frown upon trail expansion, so we'd either live with it or take it out.
    Funny thing with that. In my experience most "trail expansion" and such is caused by......


    Wait for it......






    Hikers, walkers, dog walkers, and so on.

    Why? Because they all take the straightest possible line so...braid the trail. Then of course let's add in rain and mud. It's funny how it's okay for them to post hole new mud pits and expand trail areas.

  8. #8
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Element36 View Post
    I will “Grant” you that this is something I would call unusual, for a Sunday long weekend ride.
    Not sure if this is a subtle attempt at humour or just a funny coincidence...

    Anyhoo, I'm not sure there's any right answer here. One person's maintenance is another person's "dumbing down" and since these trails are all "ad hoc", no one really has any authority anyhow.

    I'd rather not have the mild braiding but on those trails, if one isn't built, it usually just starts to happen over time anyway.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Element36 View Post
    Dundas - Trail “Hot Head” vs Conservation Authority.
    I will “Grant” you that this is something I would call unusual, for a Sunday long weekend ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Not sure if this is a subtle attempt at humour or just a funny coincidence...

    Anyhow, I'm not sure there's any right answer here. One person's maintenance is another person's "dumbing down" and since these trails are all "ad hoc", no one really has any authority anyhow.

    I'd rather not have the mild braiding but on those trails, if one isn't built, it usually just starts to happen over time anyway.
    I was wondering the same things as GM.

    Anyway, I concur with GM's comments. It's a tough call and I don't think there is a right answer, especially for the trails in Dundas Valley, which are adhoc with no designated steward(s), such as those found in Christie.

    I thank you for taking the time to do some trail maintenance, making the trails friendly to all users, I also enjoy a log over here and there. The right answer, (beyond no one needs to be a 'hothead') certainly is not coming to me.

  10. #10
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    well there is traibuilding and trailbuilding, see NSMBA | Trails for all, trails forever

    The poster said he would not normally do this but made an exception. Personally I think the trails in Dundas are very friendly, most of them beginners trails. You have to seek out the intermediate trails. The fact that most people riding these trails are able to ride to the trails, not put the bike on the car rack, and a lot of people are not experienced riders means something. This little cheater trail, plus the built up ramp over the log is maybe one off and the poster is not likely to get around to cutting up the trails for his entertainment. I would give him the benefit of the doubt, and thank him for his thoughtful work. Just my opinion.

  11. #11
    I wonder why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyjack View Post
    FWIW, it's not that big of a log and it looks like its been down for quite a while and is worn down.
    I agree with the above and personally enjoy these types of technical features. I think the log should have been left alone and I would rather see logs stabilized (if required) so that they are safe to ride over rather than removed. The log shown has been ramped and does not appear to be too technical for most riders.

    I often notice that many newer or less skilled riders are simply afraid to try riding over logs because it looks too difficult for them, when in fact they find it easy once they have tried (with a little guidance).

    IMO, those rider's who aren't comfortable riding over such features can walk over if they choose. Or, they can spend some time practising their skills, otherwise, if the trails are sanitized, how are they going to learn.

    i1dry?
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  12. #12
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    I just rode this section.

    I'm glad more users, as a result of this, feel their flow is conversed. In general the feature is consistent with the level of difficulty of the trail as a whole. There are 4-5 other log overs, this one being on the easier end. The re-route encourages braiding/widening of the trail, but I'm not sure where that falls in the idea of creating lines for various levels.

    Anyway, I hope everyone is enjoying their rides, I sure did.

  13. #13
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    Is this on the trail that runs off Merrick and into Monarch trail?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol-crank View Post
    Is this on the trail that runs off Merrick and into Monarch trail?
    It's the set of trails that parallels the Monarch trail. Also locally known as 'Tim's Trails'

    This specific section is just in from Old Dundas/Ancaster Road heading West. It's in the 'second' section of trail.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    It's the set of trails that parallels the Monarch trail. Also locally known as 'Tim's Trails'

    This specific section is just in from Old Dundas/Ancaster Road heading West. It's in the 'second' section of trail.
    I think I know that one. Aren't there a few little cheater trails around some of the log overs. Anyways that isn't really a trail for beginers I guess.

  16. #16
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    How would Niño Schurter handle the log?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol-crank View Post
    I think I know that one. Aren't there a few little cheater trails around some of the log overs. Anyways that isn't really a trail for beginers I guess.
    This one 'segment' which is easily entered and exited from the main Monarch Double track is the easiest of all portions of Tim's Trails, plus closest to the parking lot. This downed log is the only technical feature and a more recent addition. I could see many people riding only this section to get a 'taste' of singletrack on a more mellow ride. However, in the scope of the entire trail set, if ridden entirely, this log over is by no stretch a filter and anyone dismounting here will be doing so many other times. They would definitely not be riding the first segment, which contains a few log overs and a couple steep, rooty, off camber ups/downs.

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