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Thread: Crunch II

  1. #1
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    Crunch II

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I feel cheated out of gnarly crash... this is what crunch means to me - a broken bone or bicycle part!!
    Your wish is my command:


  2. #2
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    Nice impact!

  3. #3
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    First I was like " Sweet, Would love to ride this... "

    Then I 'd.

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    My palms were actually getting sweaty wondering which feature would be your undoing.

    No permanent damage I hope? At least your posting fingers seem to be intact (unless you're now typing with a mouth-held stylus).
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    My palms were actually getting sweaty wondering which feature would be your undoing.

    No permanent damage I hope? At least your posting fingers seem to be intact (unless you're now typing with a mouth-held stylus).
    Sprained one wrist and two fingers of the other hand. I was obviously jumping above my ability level. Any thoughts as to what I might have been doing wrong from what little you can see in the video?

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Sprained one wrist and two fingers of the other hand. I was obviously jumping above my ability level. Any thoughts as to what I might have been doing wrong from what little you can see in the video?
    I watched it twice trying to figure out what went pear shaped. Did you land back-wheel first and then endo? (I find that the perspective from the head-cam almost always make people look like they're on the verge of an endo. ).
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I watched it twice trying to figure out what went pear shaped. Did you land back-wheel first and then endo? (I find that the perspective from the head-cam almost always make people look like they're on the verge of an endo. ).
    I’m wondering about that. back wheel first requires some serious shock absorption from the legs. If I landed back wheel first and failed to absorb, I might have been thrown violently forward onto the front wheel, and then... Bluey!

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    Was this your first-ever attempt of said feature?
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

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    Yup! First... So far.

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    Be honest - it was that paint, wasn't it?

    It seems like you came off leaning to the left, probably hit rear-first too hard and it was curtains. Maybe to square up earlier and try to match the angle of the transition more with a (may need more speed)... just a guess i can't see where you landed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Any thoughts as to what I might have been doing wrong from what little you can see in the video?
    It looks like the front wheel spun sideways when you landed, why is something which I can't really see from the video. If I were to take a guess it could be from being off-balance coming off the drop and/or having a harder landing than expected and not being able to soak it up.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Be honest - it was that paint, wasn't it?
    Oddly, I saw red after the crash too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Oddly, I saw red after the crash too!
    lots of people crash on that when it is wet. not really a jump, more of a drop. it tends to pitch you forward off balance if you don't have enough speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Sprained one wrist and two fingers of the other hand. I was obviously jumping above my ability level. Any thoughts as to what I might have been doing wrong from what little you can see in the video?
    Glad you're alright. That looked painful!

  15. #15
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    Hey, where is that? Looks like fun!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck50 View Post
    Hey, where is that? Looks like fun!
    It's Blue Mountain.

    Ironically, there was a thread kicking around here somewhere about a month ago debating the quality/safety of that feature.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    It's Blue Mountain.

    Ironically, there was a thread kicking around here somewhere about a month ago debating the quality/safety of that feature.
    Coolio! I would never try that feature, I just know I could not clear that! There is somethign similar on my reg ride. I wish I could though!

  18. #18
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    I'm thinking not enough speed - from 1.35 it looks like you are grabbing brake.
    Last edited by tommy; 09-27-2011 at 08:46 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck50 View Post
    Hey, where is that? Looks like fun!
    The trail is called Haole and its one of 5 intermediate level runs. Each trail is unique and has varying levels of difficulty (steepness, features etc). Haole is wide with berms and has several wooden drops and dirt jumps. Over the summer my skills accelerated with practice riding steep/ rooty rocky (often very narrow) decents and managing drops/jumps. I'm doing the advanced trails with ease. And I'm much faster now than I was at the beginning of the season.

    Singlesprocket and I are at Blue most weekends. We've had a great time (the village is also rocking) . There are some but not many females riding dh, so we stand out. If you want to learn more let me know. I'm more than happy to share .

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    It's Blue Mountain.

    Ironically, there was a thread kicking around here somewhere about a month ago debating the quality/safety of that feature.
    The feature seems fine to me, and it’s 100% optional. If people don’t want to find themselves parting ways with their bikes from time to time, there is a nice Mountain Coaster to enjoy :-D

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I'm thinking not enough speed - from 1.35 it looks like you are grabbing brake.
    Hmmm... I’m comfortable wheelie-dropping things that size from a track stand, so I wouldn’t normally worry about being too slow. But perhaps more speed would have helped in some way. The other suggestion is coming down rear wheel first, so perhaps I sailed off the end and failed to push the nose down to get both wheels onto the dirt together.

    What do you think of that possibility?

  21. #21
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    Hard to tell what went wrong. Without another camera angle can't really give any feedback on what may have gone wrong. Need to look at body position, bike position, and such which can't see in the helmet cam angle.

  22. #22
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    see what happens when you ride with clips!
    it tied the room together man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by canadian-clydesdale View Post
    see what happens when you ride with clips!
    Mallets: The worst of both worlds ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Mallets: The worst of both worlds ;-)
    I retract my earlier speculation regarding the cause of your crash.
    Your crash was clearly caused by the use of an inferior Crank Bros. product.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Mallets: The worst of both worlds ;-)

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    lolol!!

    So true, what a **** unreliable product, but somehow it still sells!!

  27. #27
    No. Just No.
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    As a longtime Eggbeater user (and no current plans to change) I can appreciate the humour here. "Set and forget"? No...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post

  28. #28
    namagomi
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    What, you didn't
    a)snap the pedal spindle or
    b)have the cone come loose on the non-drive side and repack 40 2mm bearings
    c)give up deal with "limp pedal" syndrome

    I am shocked sir.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    What, you didn't
    a)snap the pedal spindle or
    b)have the cone come loose on the non-drive side and repack 40 2mm bearings
    c)give up deal with "limp pedal" syndrome

    I am shocked sir.
    Meh. Easy, meet peasy.

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    If people don’t want to find themselves parting ways with their bikes from time to time, there is a nice Mountain Coaster to enjoy
    There must be some way to injure yourself on that thing, and I intend to find it.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Meh. Easy, meet peasy.

    I was getting fed up of those bearing seizing at the worst times (like 40k from home) or having the body separate from the spindle on day two of CTS - with 40k left in the stage; so you can imagine how excited I was when Crank brothers came out with the new re-designed, better seals, stronger pedals - I picked up a set of the eggbeater 3's with the 5 year warranty! YeeHaw - they lasted about 11 months before one pedal seized a couple weeks ago.
    Bad news is that rebuild kit only works on the old style - they will release a kit for the new style "soon"

  32. #32
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    At a bike shop near you.

    Husband "Look sweetie... it's a brand shiny new sexier version of the Eggbeaters."

    Wife " But you know dear, they fail pretty quick."

    Husband " Not this time... shinier means better. And they will have worked out all the bugs this time"

    Wife " Okay dear" as she rolls her eyes.

    Shop door opens as a dirtbag enters on a well beaten hardtail.

    Mechanic " Hey dude"

    Dirtbag " Nice ride."

    Mechanic " Don't you think you should get around to rebuilding those Shimano SPD's? It's been 4 years."

    Couple looks over in shock.

    Dirtbag" Naw dude.. that takes away from ride time.

  33. #33
    namagomi
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    Sooo... the dirtbags know best?

  34. #34
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    I was a shop mechanic when the Eggbeaters and Candys first came out, other than RockShox Judy cartridges I can't think of any other product which broke so often. Well I guess there was the M73x series of XT V-brakes where the pivots went to **** after 6 months, but at least the rebuild kit worked and kept the stinkin' things fixed for years. I still have a set on one of my bikes.

    Also, Time ATAC pedals all the way.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I was getting fed up of those bearing seizing at the worst times (like 40k from home) or having the body separate from the spindle on day two of CTS - with 40k left in the stage; so you can imagine how excited I was when Crank brothers came out with the new re-designed, better seals, stronger pedals - I picked up a set of the eggbeater 3's with the 5 year warranty! YeeHaw - they lasted about 11 months before one pedal seized a couple weeks ago.
    Bad news is that rebuild kit only works on the old style - they will release a kit for the new style "soon"
    Sorry to hear that. After 4 years of riding Eggbeaters, all 3 Crank the Shields and every conceivable race in between, I am yet to break anything or suffer a malfunction. Still riding the same set of 5 pairs of pedals across 3 of my bikes over the last 4 years. Two pairs got rebuilt (by self).

    In the previous 4 years I had 2 pairs of Time Attacks XS Carbon replaced under warranty as they disintegrated on me.

    It is probably just a fluke. Eh electrik?

    I do like those white platforms though. I think I will switch when I stop racing and start attending same beer rides. My platforms will be white. To match my spit shiny sub 21 carbon 29er HT racing red and white colours.

    Thumbsup.


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    My working theory is that Crank Bros. builds 10% of the pedals to last and cheaps out on the other 90% of them. Another person I know has the same experience with Eggbeaters as osokolo, she can't seem to break them while most other people I know have endless problems with them.

  37. #37
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    Never mind.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post

    Also, Time ATAC pedals all the way.
    times are the best, used these pedals for years. if you have to ride spds these are the ones, last forever... i've worn out many pairs of shoes before pedals....

    yup broken eggbeaters, but i guess people like to justify what they buy to the bitter end...

    lol how much for the rebuild kit? more crap for the landfill
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I was getting fed up of those bearing seizing at the worst times (like 40k from home) or having the body separate from the spindle on day two of CTS - with 40k left in the stage; so you can imagine how excited I was when Crank brothers came out with the new re-designed, better seals, stronger pedals - I picked up a set of the eggbeater 3's with the 5 year warranty! YeeHaw - they lasted about 11 months before one pedal seized a couple weeks ago.
    Bad news is that rebuild kit only works on the old style - they will release a kit for the new style "soon"
    That does suck. Eggbeaters seem to be really rider-dependent. Between me and Mrs. Monster, we probably have over a dozen pairs and I've only had one fail on me (after CTS #1, not entirely surprising).

    I still love 'em but I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge they're not for everyone.

    EDIT: The reason we switched to Eggbeaters from SPDs is that Mrs. Monster's cleats REALLY pack up with mud and/or ice since the cleat pocket on women's shoes is so small and the SPDs don't respond well to that sort of build-up. Since we switched about five years ago, it's been a non-issue and that's the short and long of why we like 'em - rebuild kits or no.
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  40. #40
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    [QUOTE=garage monster;8492502]The reason we switched to Eggbeaters from SPDs is that Mrs. Monster's cleats REALLY pack up with mud and/or ice since the cleat pocket on women's shoes is so small and the SPDs...QUOTE]

    Similar reason for me - the 959 pedals would get packed out with ice, switched to the eggbeaters, no more issue. I grew to prefer them over the spd's, just wish they would work the issue out.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Eggbeaters seem to be really rider-dependent. Between me and Mrs. Monster, we probably have over a dozen pairs and I've only had one fail on me (after CTS #1, not entirely surprising).
    From my shop experiences and discussions with the riders I know, it seems to be a random pattern. We've had'em installed on everything from road bikes to freeride bikes with all sorts of different riders, a few have had no failures despite abusing the crap out them while others have had them fall apart from just looking at them wrong. There isn't a pattern like rode weekly at Hilton Falls, failed after 5000km, rider was a Clyde or something along those lines.

  42. #42
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    Time ATAC pedals are great. Nothing wrong with them, though they did have some design issues that were fixed along the line. I did break a couple of sets, when I didn't think they should have broken (hitting the stump ie). However, I did not switch to Eggbeaters because Time ATAC sucked. Time pedals still have some better features than Eggbeaters - like more platform as well as (I believe) stronger spindle.

    On the flip side, Eggbeaters have advantages in other areas, like mud/snow/ice clearance which was the single most important reason I switched to them, as well as reduced weight.

    When I switched, I very well expected shorter life and increased probability of breakage. Neither happened. The life expectancy is about the same as Time ATAC in my case. Rebuild kit is only $20 - and this is a huge advantage over Time ATAC (at least from the time I used them (2000-2006), which did not have any rebuild kits. I mashed Eggbeaters against rocks on multiple occasions, causing sparks etc, but they held up beyond expectations. Not a single set broke or seized on me. I've been using exclusively 2Ti model - don't know if that matters at all, but do believe that they are solidly built for their purpose.

    It is good to have both options, just don't understand those that go out of their way to badmouth the product that quite a few of us continue to use as we are happy with it, portraying it as a character flaw trying to justify the purchase... I find it weird, but not surprising, considering the source.

    But, seeing the flashiness of the oversized, blingy white platforms on the carbon 29er squishy the other day at Palgrave, I must say that I will engage in active search for those pedals, hoping that they will deliver a huge unfair advantage to me next racing season.

    If anyone has any leads as to where to get them, please come forward.

    Thanks in advance electrik.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Credit where credit is due Chris, that is my MS paint magnum opus!

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Eggbeaters have advantages in other areas, like mud/snow/ice clearance which was the single most important reason I switched to them, as well as reduced weight.
    I came to MTB from Cyclocross, and that was the reason I bought a pair. I tried SPDs, they didn’t work for me at all when mixing riding and shouldering the bike, especially on training rides in The Don, the epicentre of sticky clay goodness. The Eggbeaters clipped in every time, even when a large clod would be stuck to the bottom of the shoe. Scrape it on the pedals, then click.

    MTB has different requirements, and I certainly understand folks who prefer SPDs or ATACs or whatever else. Like many things, sometimes one thing is better than another for a certain application, but it’s not better enough to be worth the switch. I don’t ride with proper XC shoes very often, so the few times that I do, I’m happy to put an inexpensive pair of Candy’s on the bike.

    Coming back to this thread’s start, I have ridden platforms pretty much all season, but I wanted to try riding with Mallets and 5.10 DH shoes. If clipless is one style of pedals and platforms another, DH clipless is actually a third flavour.

    You ride with your feet pressed securely on the platforms just like a platform pedal. The cleats are shoved right to the back of the available travel, so your foot is closer to the position you’d adopt for platforms (axle under the arch of the foot) than clipless (axle under the ball of the foot). You aren’t going to get as much cranking power as with a XC-style cleat setup, but you do get more than with a platform. Most importantly, the feet are secured when you take some big hits or jounce through a rock garden.

    I was challenged here on MTBR to learn the “West Coast Bail” while wearing clipless pedals, and this is one of my immediate goals. I haven’t tried platforms with SPDs, so I can’t say whether the mallets are better, worse, or about the same. But for the purpose of learning a new skill, I suspect they’re fine.

  45. #45
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    i swear i read somewhere

    that you unsubscribed from this, although being your own, thread.

    weird.

    but i do share your sentiment on different pedals.

    mullets are it!

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    I came to MTB from Cyclocross, and that was the reason I bought a pair. I tried SPDs, they didn’t work for me at all when mixing riding and shouldering the bike, especially on training rides in The Don, the epicentre of sticky clay goodness. The Eggbeaters clipped in every time, even when a large clod would be stuck to the bottom of the shoe. Scrape it on the pedals, then click.

    MTB has different requirements, and I certainly understand folks who prefer SPDs or ATACs or whatever else. Like many things, sometimes one thing is better than another for a certain application, but it’s not better enough to be worth the switch. I don’t ride with proper XC shoes very often, so the few times that I do, I’m happy to put an inexpensive pair of Candy’s on the bike.

    Coming back to this thread’s start, I have ridden platforms pretty much all season, but I wanted to try riding with Mallets and 5.10 DH shoes. If clipless is one style of pedals and platforms another, DH clipless is actually a third flavour.

    You ride with your feet pressed securely on the platforms just like a platform pedal. The cleats are shoved right to the back of the available travel, so your foot is closer to the position you’d adopt for platforms (axle under the arch of the foot) than clipless (axle under the ball of the foot). You aren’t going to get as much cranking power as with a XC-style cleat setup, but you do get more than with a platform. Most importantly, the feet are secured when you take some big hits or jounce through a rock garden.

    I was challenged here on MTBR to learn the “West Coast Bail” while wearing clipless pedals, and this is one of my immediate goals. I haven’t tried platforms with SPDs, so I can’t say whether the mallets are better, worse, or about the same. But for the purpose of learning a new skill, I suspect they’re fine.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    i swear i read somewhere that you unsubscribed from this, although being your own, thread.
    Imagine, if you will, that you are enjoying some after-ride BEvERages, and you start a conversation with a friend or two. Someone else drifts over, then someone else, and the petty soon there is a small crowd. Naturally, the conversation meanders a bit. Soon, it falls into a predictable pattern somewhat typical of the larger group of people who are now involved.

    You excuse yourself and wander away for a while to talk to somebody else, and check back in later to see if it has turned back to something of interest to you personally. In the mean time, there’s no need to be notified every time someone has something to say. It’s that simple.

    Now back to pedals. These are what I was using in that crash:



    And what I normally ride:



    And when I want some weight -weenie cred:


  47. #47
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    Actually, for a number of years now bike fitting methodologies (which includes cleat setup) for all types of riding including performance road and XC racing, often have the cleats positioned as rearward as possible for optimal pedaling efficiency and power output. Not a hard rule of course, since by definition bike fits are a highly individual matter. The "cleat under ball of foot" thing as a rule of thumb left the building some time ago, even though for some people it still may be the best cleat position.

    This rearward cleat setup is not to be confused with a true "midfoot" cleat position, which is a much more radical bike fit methodology that generally requires some customization of gear to achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    You ride with your feet pressed securely on the platforms just like a platform pedal. The cleats are shoved right to the back of the available travel, so your foot is closer to the position you’d adopt for platforms (axle under the arch of the foot) than clipless (axle under the ball of the foot). You aren’t going to get as much cranking power as with a XC-style cleat setup, but you do get more than with a platform. Most importantly, the feet are secured when you take some big hits or jounce through a rock garden.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Actually, for a number of years now bike fitting methodologies (which includes cleat setup) for all types of riding including performance road and XC racing, often have the cleats positioned as rearward as possible for optimal pedaling efficiency and power output. Not a hard rule of course, since by definition bike fits are a highly individual matter. The "cleat under ball of foot" thing as a rule of thumb left the building some time ago, even though for some people it still may be the best cleat position.

    This rearward cleat setup is not to be confused with a true "midfoot" cleat position, which is a much more radical bike fit methodology that generally requires some customization of gear to achieve.
    What, since when... 1st metarastal ftw. I heard moving the cleat backwards is for losers who can't hack it... true?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    What, since when... 1st metarastal ftw.
    Just one reference below, but unless you want to treat yourself as being more qualified than Steve Hogg (the author of the article) this should open your mind a bit to at least consider the topic;

    POWER TO THE PEDAL – CLEAT POSITION » Bike Fit » Feet » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website

    Steve is coming at this almost exclusively from the perspective of pedaling, but if the more rearward position also adds potential for more stability in mountain biking, then it's a win-win.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I heard moving the cleat backwards is for losers who can't hack it... true?
    If you want to put that tag on me then sure, I guess you've got it nailed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Just one reference below, but unless you want to treat yourself as being more qualified than Steve Hogg (the author of the article) this should open your mind a bit to at least consider the topic;

    POWER TO THE PEDAL – CLEAT POSITION » Bike Fit » Feet » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website

    Steve is coming at this almost exclusively from the perspective of pedaling, but if the more rearward position also adds potential for more stability in mountain biking, then it's a win-win.



    If you want to put that tag on me then sure, I guess you've got it nailed.
    Sweet tat...(!!!!!)


    You're coming out of the closet as anti BOFOPA, well we are a tolerant bunch around here

    and will tolerate even the intolerable including clipless pedal cleat arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    You're coming out of the closet as anti BOFOPA, well we are a tolerant bunch around here
    Nah, I've spent lots of time with BOFOPA, and wouldn't have any problem with going back to it. Heck, I might just do that some day. For the last several years though, I'm liking the more rearward position better by feel, went through hard data collection also, so that's what you find when you flip my shoes over.

    If BOFOPA works for you, it doesn't bother me at all. Do whatever you want with your own gear and setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Nah, I've spent lots of time with BOFOPA, and wouldn't have any problem with going back to it. Heck, I might just do that some day. For the last several years though, I'm liking the more rearward position better by feel, went through hard data collection also, so that's what you find when you flip my shoes over.

    If BOFOPA works for you, it doesn't bother me at all. Do whatever you want with your own gear and setup.
    Do you strike with your heels while running also?

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Do you strike with your heels while running also?
    Time to answer a question with a question. Where do you intend to draw the line between biomechanics for running versus biomechanics for cycling?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Time to answer a question with a question. Where do you intend to draw the line between biomechanics for running versus biomechanics for cycling?
    When there is a relevant biomechanical difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    When there is a relevant biomechanical difference.
    Since I have no formal education, training, or professional experience in the area of biomechanics to be able to intelligently comment on what is or is not a relevant biomechanical difference, you're going to have to fly solo on the rest of this discussion and hope that someone with expertise equal to your own (whatever expertise that is, since we don't know anything about you) picks up on the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Since I have no formal education, training, or professional experience in the area of biomechanics to be able to intelligently comment on what is or is not a relevant biomechanical difference, you're going to have to fly solo on the rest of this discussion and hope that someone with expertise equal to your own (whatever expertise that is, since we don't know anything about you) picks up on the thread.
    Throwing in the towel eh, thats ok... the question was only to satisfy my curiosity not to prove something! Other interesting questions are... What sort of shoe sole do you have? eggbeater or wider platform style clip? Orthotics?

    My expertise isn't great either, so don't worry about throwing out something to discuss!

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Throwing in the towel eh, thats ok...
    If you want to characterize some self-awareness about the progression from hard knowledge, to reasonable speculation, to risk of total BS then I guess I'm throwing in the towel by your definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Other interesting questions are... What sort of shoe sole do you have? eggbeater or wider platform style clip?
    Soles that I collected my observations with were stiff resin and carbon, respectively. For this purpose I treat any difference in stiffness as immaterial.

    Pedals = Eggbeaters. Since that's a constant as my current pedal of choice, any mitigating effects with other pedal types was not relevant to me.

    No orthotics.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    My expertise isn't great either
    Duly noted.

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    Just tossing something into the discussion... The consensus amongst DH riders who use clips is either mid foot using modified gear or with the cleat as far back as the shoes allow. Riders on technical terrain like freeriders or trials riders place the pedal mid foot.

    All of which suggests to me that there is more to choosing a cleat position than pedaling efficiency. For some types of riding, stability and balance matter as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    If you want to characterize some self-awareness about the progression from hard knowledge, to reasonable speculation, to risk of total BS then I guess I'm throwing in the towel by your definition.



    Soles that I collected my observations with were stiff resin and carbon, respectively. For this purpose I treat any difference in stiffness as immaterial.

    Pedals = Eggbeaters. Since that's a constant as my current pedal of choice, any mitigating effects with other pedal types was not relevant to me.

    No orthotics.



    Duly noted.
    You should know I stayed at a holiday inn express last night. It's important to note it seems Steve Hogg himself lands only in reasonable speculation since after reading his fitting hypothesis it is starkly not backed up by much hard evidence.

    I asked about heel-striking because I suspect the reason a person moves to a mid-foot position cleat is because they're the product of the modern shoe where problems like weak arches and other conditions do develop and seem to disable the proper mechanics of the human stride.

    I think that somewhere along the way, the mechanics of walking and running were mistakenly applied to cycling. When we walk, we strike the ground with the outside of the rear foot (which is why the outside rear of the heels of your work shoes show more wear than the the rest of the shoe heel) and progressively roll in until we toe off on the inside edge of the forefoot. Do that as a species for several million years and evolution dictates that the ball of the foot is the largest of the MTP joints because it is the most heavily loaded on the toe off part of the stride. The problem here is that we have evolved to walk and run, not to cycle and cycling foot mechanics differ from walking foot mechanics substantially. As measured from the heel, the MTP joints are all at different distances from the heel with huge individual variation as to the relative placement of the 5 joints. So to spread the load would it not be better to try and find a mid point amongst the MTP joints?
    Another several million years may be required to reorganize the foot such that it will be properly adapted for cycling. The mechanics of the foot and all the synergistic muscles and patterns for stabilizing our running are revolving around weighting and launching off that near the mtp joint. I suspect the mid-cleat position(not what he suggests in the above paragraph) will have negative effects on power output(he repeatedly warns about this) and balance. I also wonder by lessening the stabilizing effect of the ankle joint does the rider shift any imbalance into their hips and knees? I can see how this might increase endurance but it will cost you power. I can go on, but i think you see my point... if you don't have troubles with calves fatiguing or hotspots why should you shift cleat position, it's not clear to me.

    What is also clear using torque analysis is that for a given power output at a given rpm, the torque peak for each pedal stroke is lower but torque is applied for more degrees of crank arc than is possible with forefoot cleat position. So in essence, for a given power output and cadence the rider is able to apply force for longer per pedal stroke but does not have to contract muscles as hard. Typically the difference in torque peak is 10%. So if looking at a torque line graph, the peak is lower but the trough is higher for the same total torque applied per stroke as would be the case with forefoot cleat position.
    Maybe I am mis-reading this. He does not clearly state power is higher for mid-foot positioning, only that rider must work less, which is obvious since the calf is being neutralized.

    I asked about the soles since not all shoes are created equally, they would have to be quite stiff and i asked about the pedals because the smaller the interface the more the sole would bend around it which is problematic.

    Why did you switch? Have you tracked your stats?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Just tossing something into the discussion... The consensus amongst DH riders who use clips is either mid foot using modified gear or with the cleat as far back as the shoes allow. Riders on technical terrain like freeriders or trials riders place the pedal mid foot.

    All of which suggests to me that there is more to choosing a cleat position than pedaling efficiency. For some types of riding, stability and balance matter as well.
    This is because DH'r drop their heels a lot

    Trials riders aren't clipped in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Just tossing something into the discussion... The consensus amongst DH riders who use clips is either mid foot using modified gear or with the cleat as far back as the shoes allow.
    There's a reason for that, DH course have ton of jumps & drops where you want to start pedaling as soon as you land to gain time. With normal XC style cleat placement there's a tendency for the heel(s) to get torqued outward if you try to put the power down too early on a non-straight landing, which describes most landings on a DH course ridden at race speed. This leads to the foot getting unclipped and bad things happening.

    By putting the cleat further back it reduces the heel out tendency so that riders don't get accidentally unclipped when putting down the power off a sideways or off-balance landing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    This is because DH'r drop their heels a lot

    Trials riders aren't clipped in.
    I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Do you ride DH? Do you drop your heels when your bike goes down a steep incline? Do you pedal hop your bike? Do you bunny hop? How about zap-tapping onto a big rock?

    My point is, these are all disciplines of cycling, therefore if we’re going to talk about where to put the cleat on the foot, we should be clear about what we’re trying to accomplish. What I observe is that many of the conversations debating these matters carries a hidden assumption that we are all XC racers or that even if we aren’t, our concerns have enough in common with XC racers that other considerations are ignored.

    All this talk of biomechanical efficiency, for example. Have you established that everyone in the conversation cares about this at the expense of all other considerations? I have no issue with YOU choosing your pedals, cleats, shoes, and setup according to your own priorities, of course, but not evryone shares them.

    In my own case, I’d copy a trials rider before I’d copy a WC XC racer. Your mileage, as they say, may differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    There's a reason for that, DH course have ton of jumps & drops where you want to start pedaling as soon as you land to gain time. With normal XC style cleat placement there's a tendency for the heel(s) to get torqued outward if you try to put the power down too early on a non-straight landing, which describes most landings on a DH course ridden at race speed. This leads to the foot getting unclipped and bad things happening.

    By putting the cleat further back it reduces the heel out tendency so that riders don't get accidentally unclipped when putting down the power off a sideways or off-balance landing.
    I think that is one benefit. But also, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that pretty much every technical riding discipline has a people riding flat pedals with their feet midway over the pedal, and when they use cleats they push them back.

    In addition to avoiding unclipping by accident, it’s also a more stable position for any and all riding out of the saddle, which dominates those disciplines. I also personally ride out of the saddle more than 75% of the time even on trail rides, so have been experimenting with a similar cleat position for all riding, not just DH.

    I have no idea if it’s “optimal” from a biomechanical efficiency perspective, but it is fun and I feel super-stable on skinnies and negotiating other technical features.

    p.s. Just to be clear, I’m not disagreeing with anything being said about biomechanical efficiency, the reliability of eggbeaters, where cleats should be positioned, or whether trials riding is a fringe sport that doesn’t really enter into the typical MTB rider’s decision process. I’m just tossing stuff into the discussion because, frankly, it is more interesting to consider a subject from many different points of view even if at the end you stand fast to your original choices.
    Last edited by raganwald; 09-29-2011 at 07:00 PM.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Do you ride DH? Do you drop your heels when your bike goes down a steep incline? Do you pedal hop your bike? Do you bunny hop? How about zap-tapping onto a big rock?
    Yes, dropping heels is important when going down a decline. As for why those riders you cited do it go midfoot, you must ask them as i don't use clipless for an DH activity.

    Pedal hop, bunny hop and zap-tap can all be done with varying foot position, however midfoot is not likely the best positioning, not sure where you got that from but most of riders i see are fore-foot because it allows greater torque.

    I don't understand why you ask questions you yourself are not interested in having the answer about, only on behalf of an imaginary person? It seems like a waste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I don't understand why you ask questions you yourself are not interested in having the answer about, only on behalf of an imaginary person? It seems like a waste.
    Please remind me: What question did I ask and what makes you think I am not interested in the answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yes, dropping heels is important when going down a decline.
    It appears this former world champion didn't get the memo...


  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    ... I’m just tossing stuff into the discussion because, frankly, it is more interesting to consider a subject from many different points of view even if at the end you stand fast to your original choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Please remind me: What question did I ask and what makes you think I am not interested in the answer?
    When you write that you're just tossing stuff into the discussion, that is the part.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    It appears this former world champion didn't get the memo...

    Nice, however i'm not sure that this means they always have feet level or that the decline/section was difficult enough for them to drop the feet.

    Now that we're being derailed, do you know why dropping a heel is good on the steep stuff?

    *edit* i should also add it looks like they're dropping the heel on their lead foot(R).
    Last edited by electrik; 09-29-2011 at 08:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Nice, however i'm not sure that this means they always have feet level or that the decline/section was difficult enough for them to drop the feet.
    Or it means that dropping a heel on the steep stuff may not be as good as you are trying to present around here...

    Now that we're being derailed, do you know why dropping a heel is good on the steep stuff?
    Nope. That makes us two. Me and the guy in the picture. Did you send him the memo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    When you write that you're just tossing stuff into the discussion, that is the part.
    I also toss ideas around in brainstorming meetings. I’m keenly interested in the explorations and discussions that follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    <snip>
    Between my subjective feelings on the topic and large amounts of data collection as these relate to my needs and circumstances, I'm all good - thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    There's a reason for that, DH course have ton of jumps & drops where you want to start pedaling as soon as you land to gain time. With normal XC style cleat placement there's a tendency for the heel(s) to get torqued outward if you try to put the power down too early on a non-straight landing, which describes most landings on a DH course ridden at race speed. This leads to the foot getting unclipped and bad things happening.

    By putting the cleat further back it reduces the heel out tendency so that riders don't get accidentally unclipped when putting down the power off a sideways or off-balance landing.
    Every dh trail is different. However I was taught by a world class rider that keeping momentum by maintaining speed and conservation of energy is the key and pedaling is only a small fundamental.

    for example:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eH9-O_frjbw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Now that we're being derailed, do you know why dropping a heel is good on the steep stuff?
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Nope. That makes us two. Me and the guy in the picture. Did you send him the memo?
    Come on guys, did you both sleep through high school physics?

    I could tell you the answer, but it sticks better if you work it out for yourselves.
    Hint: Force vectors, gravity, friction. Put the rider on a downhill slope with the feet level with respect to the bike. Resolve the forces on the pedal/foot interface. Then drop the heels down and do it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Come on guys, did you both sleep through high school physics?

    I could tell you the answer, but it sticks better if you work it out for yourselves.
    Hint: Force vectors, gravity, friction. Put the rider on a downhill slope with the feet level with respect to the bike. Resolve the forces on the pedal/foot interface. Then drop the heels down and do it again.
    If that were true, gravity riders would have their saddles angled with the back dropped and the nose pointing upwards instead of parallel to the ground.


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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    If that were true, gravity riders would have their saddles angled with the back dropped and the nose pointing upwards instead of parallel to the ground.

    Funny that you mention that...


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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Funny that you mention that...
    No doubt your next blasphemy will be to claim that gravity riders use short stems so that when they’re riding with a long fork and heels dropped, their center of gravity is aligned with the force vector rather than being perpendicular to the surface of the hill.

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    Never let facts crowd an internet debate!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    No doubt your next blasphemy will be to claim that gravity riders use short stems so that when they’re riding with a long fork and heels dropped, their center of gravity is aligned with the force vector rather than being perpendicular to the surface of the hill.
    That is actually a myth. The reason they use short stems is because the design constraints of DH bikes (amount of travel required, geometry, etc.) makes them too long, so they have use short stems to compensate.

    If you look at DH bikes from the old days when these constraints didn't exist, you will note that they had much longer stems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    That is actually a myth. The reason they use short stems is because the design constraints of DH bikes (amount of travel required, geometry, etc.) makes them too long, so they have use short stems to compensate.

    If you look at DH bikes from the old days when these constraints didn't exist, you will note that they had much longer stems.
    What I see is a fellow going very fast clipped in, with heels up, wearing a sausage suit. Oggie, is that you?

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    It just occured to me that I actually do drop my heels on purpose on some downhills but the reason is different. It's an on-the-bike stretch for my calves that I use during 8 and 24 hour solos. Hmmm...
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    In all seriousness, I find dropping my heels seems to have more to do with being a good way to stay stuck on platforms when both wheels are down than anything else. If I were to point my toes down as I do to control the rear wheel in the air, my weight distribution would be all wrong and the fore I apply to the bike would be all wrong.

    It could be that level pedals works just fine with clips, I dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    What I see is a fellow going very fast clipped in, with heels up, wearing a sausage suit. Oggie, is that you?
    Looks flexy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    It just occured to me that I actually do drop my heels on purpose on some downhills but the reason is different. It's an on-the-bike stretch for my calves that I use during 8 and 24 hour solos. Hmmm...
    I also find myself doing that on long rides sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Just one reference below, but unless you want to treat yourself as being more qualified than Steve Hogg (the author of the article) this should open your mind a bit to at least consider the topic;

    POWER TO THE PEDAL – CLEAT POSITION » Bike Fit » Feet » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website

    Steve is coming at this almost exclusively from the perspective of pedaling, but if the more rearward position also adds potential for more stability in mountain biking, then it's a win-win.



    If you want to put that tag on me then sure, I guess you've got it nailed.
    Unfortunately Steve doesn't know what he is talking about. Firstly, he states that "effort" from the muscles in the calves stabilizes the foot (and ankle), this is not true.

    The muscles that are "actively" involved with stabilizing the foot and ankle are the extensors, peronius longus, peronius brevis, tibialis anterior, and tibialis posterior (located in the upper lateral shin area––commonly associated with shin splints). When contracted (or activated) these muscles both optimally align the bones of the foot and ankle as well as create an active tension which maintains/stabilizes the alignment. This active tension results in an opposing passive tension in the flexors, gastrocs, soleus, etc. (i.e., calf muscles). When the foot and ankle are optimally stabilized, the vast majority of the energy generated by the calf muscles goes towards propulsion.

    In layman's terms, when the shin muscles fire to stabilize the foot and ankle, the arch and toes rise in concert to create a stable "locked lever" for optimal propulsion. If this does not happen (or cannot happen because of restrictions of the shoe/tight lacing) the foot and ankle are unstable and incapable of effectively managing and transferring the forces generated during propulsion. Therefore, depending upon the instability, a proportionate amount of the muscle energy that should go towards propulsion is used to compensate for the biomechanical inefficiency.

    From a biomechanical (mechanical physics perspective), if the foot is optimally stabilized as described the most efficient transfer of propulsive energy is through the metatarsal heads (ball of the foot). From a pedaling perspective, the farther back the axis of the pedal to the metatarsal heads' center of mass, the lower the calf muscles efficiency (i.e., muscular energy applied to the propulsive stroke).

    Steve also states that "under significant loads per pedal stroke (forcing a gear a bit), all but a tiny fraction of riders drop their heels more relative to their individual pedaling technique (heel dropping; run of the mill; toe down etc) than they do at lesser loads." This is only because of the poor biomechanical alignment and musculoskeletal function, as noted above. When this happens it also significantly increases the degenerative stresses on the calf muscles. With optimal musculoskeletal function, there is no reason for the heel to drop unless the rider wants it to.

    i1dry?
    Last edited by i1dry; 09-30-2011 at 10:17 AM. Reason: typo
    ...some drink from the fountain of knowledge..some only gargle...!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    What I see is a fellow going very fast clipped in, with heels up, wearing a sausage suit. Oggie, is that you?
    Yeah. Sorry. I did race DH when I was young and stupid. Now I am old and stupid but I race only XC because I can wear my sausage suit and feel accepted.


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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    Unfortunately Steve doesn't know what he is talking about. Firstly, he states that "effort" from the muscles in the calves stabilizes the foot (and ankle), this is not true...
    I'm not qualified to comment one way or the other. Would you consider emailing Steve at the address on his web site with your comments to see what his response is? Or, if you are not opposed I can forward your comments to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    Unfortunately Steve doesn't know what he is talking about. Firstly, he states that "effort" from the muscles in the calves stabilizes the foot (and ankle), this is not true.

    The muscles that are "actively" involved with stabilizing the foot and ankle are the extensors, peronius longus, peronius brevis, tibialis anterior, and tibialis posterior (located in the upper lateral shin area––commonly associated with shin splints). When contracted (or activated) these muscles both optimally align the bones of the foot and ankle as well as create an active tension which maintains/stabilizes the alignment. This active tension results in an opposing passive tension in the flexors, gastrocs, soleus, etc. (i.e., calf muscles). When the foot and ankle are optimally stabilized, the vast majority of the energy generated by the calf muscles goes towards propulsion.

    In layman's terms, when the shin muscles fire to stabilize the foot and ankle, the arch and toes rise in concert to create a stable "locked lever" for optimal propulsion. If this does not happen (or cannot happen because of restrictions of the shoe/tight lacing) the foot and ankle are unstable and incapable of effectively managing and transferring the forces generated during propulsion. Therefore, depending upon the instability, a proportionate amount of the muscle energy that should go towards propulsion is used to compensate for the biomechanical inefficiency.

    From a biomechanical (mechanical physics perspective), if the foot is optimally stabilized as described the most efficient transfer of propulsive energy is through the metatarsal heads (ball of the foot). From a pedaling perspective, the farther back the axis of the pedal to the metatarsal heads' center of mass, the lower the calf muscles efficiency (i.e., muscular energy applied to the propulsive stroke).

    Steve also states that "under significant loads per pedal stroke (forcing a gear a bit), all but a tiny fraction of riders drop their heels more relative to their individual pedaling technique (heel dropping; run of the mill; toe down etc) than they do at lesser loads." This is only because of the poor biomechanical alignment and musculoskeletal function, as noted above. When this happens it also significantly increases the degenerative stresses on the calf muscles. With optimal musculoskeletal function, there is no reason for the heel to drop unless the rider wants it to.

    i1dry?
    Nice writeup. I have to admit that it matches my personal experience after experimenting with fore and aft cleat position.


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  87. #87
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Come on guys, did you both sleep through high school physics?

    I could tell you the answer, but it sticks better if you work it out for yourselves.
    Hint: Force vectors, gravity, friction. Put the rider on a downhill slope with the feet level with respect to the bike. Resolve the forces on the pedal/foot interface. Then drop the heels down and do it again.
    It was rhetorical question, i guess you missed that.

    Heels are dropped because the rider is behind the wheel. The rider is rearwards because it's DH. Imagine a rider standing on flat ground, now rotate the rider about the pedal spindle so his bicycle sits flat on a steep downhill. You see what happens? The heels drop.

    Slamming the cleats back will reduce torque from large hits and drops and will raise the heels up so they don't smash off ****. Of course there are downsides like the ability to sprint being negatively affected and the inability to have meaningful float off the pedal. However this maybe a good way to get a beginner to learn technique since lots of riders "ankle" the bicycle more than use their hips and body to control it. Ankling offers less power over hips.

  88. #88
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    What I see is a fellow going very fast clipped in, with heels up, wearing a sausage suit. Oggie, is that you?
    I like his seatpost, it's actually more like a mast... where he can fly his flag proudly.

  89. #89
    Perpetual Hack
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    For what its worth.
    I have ridden flats for 40 years.
    Ball of foot over pedal spindle, or just a bit further back.
    Feet flat to slightly heel down for most hill riding.
    When I get over the back on steeps, the heels drop naturally.
    X-hops usually require some amount of toe down scooping.
    In flight corrections usually done with foot position, toes usually.

    just me and your mileage will probably vary.

    michael

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    That is actually a myth. The reason they use short stems is because the design constraints of DH bikes (amount of travel required, geometry, etc.) makes them too long, so they have use short stems to compensate.

    If you look at DH bikes from the old days when these constraints didn't exist, you will note that they had much longer stems.
    Actually everyone was using longer stems back then. It was all the rage.. 120m stems matched with the narrowest of bars one could ride. something about the racer position thinking comes to mind as after all back then NORBA and such where what was setting the example for everyone else. Putting all that weight on the front wheel.

    Look at early video's of guy's like Mountain Bike Mike, Dangerous Dan, Goat Legs Gabe, and the rest. Riding trails like Ladies only with that set up. It changed when guy's showed up with a moto trials back ground. Bikes set up with short stems. The light bul went off when they saw how much more control was had with shorter stems and wider bars.

    Long before it was popular.

  91. #91
    I wonder why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I'm not qualified to comment one way or the other. Would you consider emailing Steve at the address on his web site with your comments to see what his response is? Or, if you are not opposed I can forward your comments to him.
    I sent Steve and e-mail with my comments. It will be interesting to see if he responds.

    Further to my earlier post, the most paramount thing to look at when attempting to optimize the mechanical function of the foot and ankle is whether the cycling shoe permits the toes and arch to rise adequately––most do not. Short of built-in toe spring, most cycling shoes have shallow toe boxes and are tightened excessively over the arch, thereby effectively destabilize the foot and ankle. All restrictive footwear trains/conditions maladaptive proprioceptive musculoskeletal function with a corresponding degree of mechanical (propulsive) inefficiency) and a predisposition to injury.

    Furthermore, aside from compensatory muscle imbalances, just like a splint of a cast, all restrictive/supportive footwear conditions muscle atrophy, loss of bone mass and joint stiffness.

    The only way that this maladaptive function can be reversed is through a stimulus-based proprioceptive reconditioning (rehabilitation) of the supporting muscle function.

    Moving the cleat back simple reduces the forces that the "unstable" foot must manage, it does not enhance the mechanical/propulsive efficiency.

    I could add a lot more, but don't want to highjack the thread.

    i1dry?
    ...some drink from the fountain of knowledge..some only gargle...!!

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    shorter stems and wider bars.
    Aha! Geometry suggests that even if the effective top tube length remains fixed, widening the bars must be accompanied by a shortening of the stem.

  93. #93
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Aha! Geometry suggests that even if the effective top tube length remains fixed, widening the bars must be accompanied by a shortening of the stem.
    Well explained video

  94. #94
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    Moving the cleat back simple reduces the forces that the "unstable" foot must manage, it does not enhance the mechanical/propulsive efficiency.

    I could add a lot more, but don't want to highjack the thread.

    i1dry?

    I thought it was more of a compensatory move for those same reason, not an enhancement. However the author surmises that it's more efficient and comfortable so therefore it's what he calls performance enhancing.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I thought it was more of a compensatory move for those same reason, not an enhancement. However the author surmises that it's more efficient and comfortable so therefore it's what he calls performance enhancing.
    The blog is entitled "Power to the Pedal - Cleat Position" and from my reading of it, the emphasis is on efficiency and performance, not comfort. He further states, "The idea behind midfoot cleat position is to take the idea of an inherently stable foot on pedal to the nth degree. When the cleat is positioned this way, ankle movement is reduced substantially but not eliminated, and the load on the calves is reduced enormously."

    As you have noted, moving the cleat back is a compensatory move to address the mechanical inefficiency of unstable foot and ankle. My point is that this methodology also deceases the mechanical propulsive efficiency of the calf muscles. Reduced loads translate directly to reduced power. Why not recondition/train/rehabilitate optimal musculoskeletal function for enhanced efficiency and power?

    As an analogy, a splint/cast is placed on one arm of a person at early childhood and the the other arm is left unfettered. At the age of twenty the cast/splint is removed. The unfettered arm will be "strong" and highly capable of performing a wide variety of tasks. The arm that has been in the cast/splint will be "weak" and capable of very little.

    So what do you do; put the "weak" arm back in some type of modified cast/splint so it can perform a few tasks in comfort, or rehabilitate the arm with an exercise regime (to promote a balance of strength and flexibility)? The exercise regime may be uncomfortable initially, but this discomfort will soon diminish as mobility and strength increases. There is no reason the "weak" arm can't regain the functional capabilities of the "strong' one.

    Steve's midfoot pedal rationale is similar to putting a modified cast/splint on the weak arm. While the comfort benefits (and if you want to call it "performance"), are greater than would be without the cast/splint, the limb is still weak and unstable, and nowhere near as capable as a strong (rehabilitated) limb.

    Just sayin...

    i1dry?
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    Steve's midfoot pedal rationale is similar to putting a modified cast/splint on the weak arm. While the comfort benefits (and if you want to call it "performance"), are greater than would be without the cast/splint, the limb is still weak and unstable, and no where near as capable as a strong (rehabilitated) limb.
    One thing to keep in mind is that our bodies do not have equal potential for strength in all axes and ranges of motion. For example, many people can easily train their glutes, hamstrings, and quadriceps to generate more power than their knees can effectively stabilize. This varies with genetics, of course, but it may be possible for some individuals to “max out” how much stabilization they can accomplish relative to how much power they can generate. Once they reach this limit, artificial stabilization such as knee wraps will allow them to continue to develop even more power.

    That being said,the counter-argument that you make has some credence. For example, there are runners who swear that barefoot running is just fine even on pavement if you train properly for it. It was once thought that our foot muscles simply weren’t engineered for serious running on concrete.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that our bodies do not have equal potential for strength in all axes and ranges of motion. For example, many people can easily train their glutes, hamstrings, and quadriceps to generate more power than their knees can effectively stabilize. This varies with genetics, of course, but it may be possible for some individuals to “max out” how much stabilization they can accomplish relative to how much power they can generate. Once they reach this limit, artificial stabilization such as knee wraps will allow them to continue to develop even more power.
    Every person, except perhaps those with severe genetic deformities or those who have had a severe debilitating injury, can optimize their strength and flexibility in all ranges of motion. Those people who encounter knee issues when attempting to increase their performance levels do so only because of the maladaptive muscle function that has been conditioned by habitual footwear use––which contributes directly to improper technique. Proper technique being defined as exercise that promotes a balance of strength and flexibility at the joints. The resulting poor alignment at the knee and resulting compensatory muscle function predisposes the athlete to injury either, acutely with increased loads, or chronically over time.

    If the athlete incorporates a more biomechanically sound exercise regime to address the foot and ankle instability, they can make substantial gains in power without the need for artificial stabilization or support, and without an increased risk of injury. This would involve them taking a few short steps backwards (if you will) to bring things into balance before pushing forward.

    i1dry?
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    I sent Steve and e-mail with my comments. It will be interesting to see if he responds.
    That it will. Thanks for reaching out to Steve. He seems to have a reasonable circle of influence from a professional standpoint. That doesn't mean he's correct, but he does describe that it gives him the opportunity to do testing with a large number of subjects. Whether that testing and methodologies are simply intended to create differentiation to support the perceived value or uniqueness of his commercial venture is another question altogether. If he is feels threatened or insecure in his knowledge, it's possible he may choose not to respond. Or, maybe he'll surprise with good dialogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    The only way that this maladaptive function can be reversed is through a stimulus-based proprioceptive reconditioning (rehabilitation) of the supporting muscle function.
    Well, here's where things take a few twists and turns. I have a history of foot problems, which I attributed to several decades of relatively intense participation in a different sport (not cycling). I invested significantly in long courses of treatment with several types of practitioners, including phsyiotherapists, sport medicine specialists, chiropractic and accupuncture. Unfortunately, I did not have a successful resolution and I was ultimately forced to finish up my participation in this sport (at any level beyond playing with my kids) as a result. I wish I could remember more of the specific medical info, but that's already years ago, and I was never certain what to trust anyhow. Cycling was something I mostly took up afterwards to fill the gap.

    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    Moving the cleat back simple reduces the forces that the "unstable" foot must manage, it does not enhance the mechanical/propulsive efficiency.
    ...
    My point is that this methodology also deceases the mechanical propulsive efficiency of the calf muscles. Reduced loads translate directly to reduced power. Why not recondition/train/rehabilitate optimal musculoskeletal function for enhanced efficiency and power?

    Steve's midfoot pedal rationale is similar to putting a modified cast/splint on the weak arm. While the comfort benefits (and if you want to call it "performance"), are greater than would be without the cast/splint, the limb is still weak and unstable, and nowhere near as capable as a strong (rehabilitated) limb.
    Let's proceed under the assumption that I was not a candidate for successful rehabilitation. Not saying that's a 100% certainty, only that it's where I gave up, as I described above. I may be in a fairly unusual situation in which it was actually of benefit to me. Intuitively, Steve's suggestions resonated positively with me, admittedly perhaps with some bias on my part to how it fit my scenario. I didn't gain any performance, but my comfort level and confidence in the stability of my position increased and my performance didn't decrease - based on a large amount of stable, historical instrumented power data to analyze and compare, and also in-race results (which have always been satisfactory enough for me as an "amateur" part-timer). All in a good outcome the way I saw it.

    In a perfect world, I'd have a successful rehab on my feet, but that isn't the way it's worked out so far, and I'm quite a few years into the acceptance stage on that issue.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    In a perfect world, I'd have a successful rehab on my feet, but that isn't the way it's worked out so far, and I'm quite a few years into the acceptance stage on that issue.
    I'll PM you with a response.

    i1dry?
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  100. #100
    Evil Jr.
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    All I can say is that all of a sudden, this thread has made me feel very stupid or at least ignorant.

    I can talk all day about tensile modulii and such but all I know about my cleat position is that my feet/legs don't hurt so I'm all good!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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