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  1. #1
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    Copeland Forest ride - Labour day - Monday

    don't really know why our mod locked the previous great thread.

    We need it, as we need to communicate the car pooling etc. Also - ride reports and pics...

    Please leave this one alive. Thank you.

  2. #2
    bi-winning
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    With a fresh start on the topic, you could have at least included the relevant details in your post - i.e. starting time and location.

    I'm considering this ride, though the traffic factor concerns me. I would be up for carpooling if anybody else from the Niagara area is also interested.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  3. #3
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    I am sorry, you are absolutely correct

    Though those interested must have followed the old thread.. I re-opened it only so that we can continue to talk about the logistics... Hopefully mod will let it live.

    The ride is Monday - 11am start - parking lot at 4th line and Ingram road. Best access to Ingram road is from highway 93 off ramp.

    We plan on riding around 3 hours and then we will consider dropping by the Horseshoe bike park and maybe take the plunge down the hill. I am thinking about setting up my Tallboy for this reason.

    I am carpooling with one rider, can take another if needed. We depart from 427/Burnhamthorpe probably around 9:00am.



    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post
    With a fresh start on the topic, you could have at least included the relevant details in your post - i.e. starting time and location.

    I'm considering this ride, though the traffic factor concerns me. I would be up for carpooling if anybody else from the Niagara area is also interested.

  4. #4
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    Also, anyone got a helmetcam? If we're hitting the DH runs at Horseshoe it would be nice to see how it looks to fly off the drops and jumps on the advanced runs.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    don't really know why our mod locked the previous great thread.

    We need it, as we need to communicate the car pooling etc. Also - ride reports and pics...

    Please leave this one alive. Thank you.

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  6. #6
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    Alright gentlemen and gentleladies

    The forecast isn't horrible, but not quite good enough to warrant a 4 hour round trip by car.

    I wish you all the best, but I'm going to stay local.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    Alright gentlemen and gentleladies

    The forecast isn't horrible, but not quite good enough to warrant a 4 hour round trip by car.

    I wish you all the best, but I'm going to stay local.
    Weather Network is showing 40% chance of <1mm of showers for the Barrie area. Moderate temperatures of ~15*. Does it get better than that?
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post
    Does it get better than that?
    Emily Batty shows up for a ride?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post
    Weather Network is showing 40% chance of <1mm of showers for the Barrie area. Moderate temperatures of ~15*. Does it get better than that?
    Yeah, that pile of work gets magically done. You know, the one I sat down with today and got very little accomplished on.

  10. #10
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    ARE YOU READY TO ROCK?

    Weather forecast now calls for no precipitation today, that's right, cloudy but no rain.
    Gonna be a good ride.

  11. #11
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    Great Ride!!!!!

    I just got home and the smile is still on my face. I'm pretty sure everyone else is still smiling too.

    No rain and the phenomenal trial system was in excellent shape.

    Eight riders turned out, Oggie, Mudhead, Matt 24 solo, rki, aerius, BlackCanoeDog, Kathy, and myself. Plenty of pictures were taken and I'm sure they will be posted shortly.

    It was great to meet everyone and enjoy the day. Special thanks to Matt for giving us the tour.

    i1dry?
    ...some drink from the fountain of knowledge..some only gargle...!!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry View Post
    I just got home and the smile is still on my face. I'm pretty sure everyone else is still smiling too.

    No rain and the phenomenal trial system was in excellent shape.

    Eight riders turned out, Oggie, Mudhead, Matt 24 solo, rki, aerius, BlackCanoeDog, Kathy, and myself. Plenty of pictures were taken and I'm sure they will be posted shortly.

    It was great to meet everyone and enjoy the day. Special thanks to Matt for giving us the tour.

    i1dry?
    Looking forward to the pics. So disappointed we didn't join you. We ended up at Hardwood Hills thinking Copeland would be too wet but I had friends also say conditions were perfect

  13. #13
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    Thanks Matt for leading us. Conditions were great, temperature was great. As many have said, the climbs are tough, but the downhills are worth it.

  14. #14
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    Every ride at Copeland is a great ride and today was no exception. Matt put together a great loop for us that covered several of the signature trails including the bermed downhill. Everyone had giant grins on their faces at the bottom of that run, it was like "holy crap! Did I just ride that? I want to go back and do it again!" it was the happiest group of riders I've ever seen. Another highlight was the salamander we spotted beside one of the trails, it was the first one I've ever seen there and I had no idea they were so small. Great ride, great company, and a perfect end to the long weekend.

  15. #15
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    Copeland Forest [o]

    First off thank you to Oggie for putting this ride together and making it open to sweeps and anchors Second also a huge thanks to Matt for leading such a fun ride! Where I come from elevation change is when I go upstairs to bed at night! Overcast and 15C is typically not fun weather but it is perfect for riding! Even the cows looked bored, wishing they had bikes...












































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  16. #16
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    Copeland Forest [o] cont'd..













































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  17. #17
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    what a day of riding
    my first full dan in the saddle after a long time...
    started with a ridiculously fun group ride at Copeland, ended up at Horseshoe bike park, letting the wheels roll down the hill, catching a bit of air at times...
    Copeland Forest is truly beautiful. Trails are challenging, both technically and physically but extremely rewarding. The nature is breathtaking. We only ran across another 2 individual riders and a small but fast group of 3 led by Kevin Simms. Everyone was enjoying every second of this ride. We kept the group together and short breaks were filled with entertaining and informational conversations. The diversity of the group contributed to the total fun of this outing. All riders truly lovers of the sport and great people. As mentioned so far, Matt was a great host and managed to get us lost for (unfortunately only) about 2-3 minutes. My appreciation goes to those that spend their time working on these trails.

    After the ride the 3 of us headed to Horseshoe Bike park - aerius, rkj_ and myself. When in Rome, do what Romans do - so I quickly put baggy shorts and appropriate shirt on, however no body armour. Paging stefanb for a quick meet and greet and after a short welcome brief by him - we were off to the trails...

    We covered all trails, bypassing the toughest features, but catching air on easier ones. Great work by Stefan and the crew on building an entertaining trail system on the slopes of Horseshoe. The three of us always put a smile on faces of the crew at loading and unloading stations, as our bikes were so light. Blasting down the hill was fun, as long as we matched the speed to the ability of our bikes and our own. Stefan was so wrong saying: "if girls can do it..." as we came across at least 2 girls that were catching some serious air, that the three of us would not attempt even if our life depended on it. Way to go girls. We stopped and observed big drops on the trail with highest difficulty. Everyone was so friendly, including exchanging compliments on our bikes. Temperature was in low teens and it started to take a toll on me, as I was completely underdressed. However, after a full day of riding, it didn't take long to convince the group that it is the time to graciously retire.

    The drive back home was as short as it can be. No cottage country traffic at all.

    Thanks to all that showed up and made this day of riding one of the best I have ever had.

    Can't wait to see the pics from the pic master himself - BCD.

  18. #18
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    WOW!! Pics speak thousand words.

    Truly outstanding BCD. Thank you!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    WOW!! Pics speak thousand words.

    Truly outstanding BCD. Thank you!
    It's my turn to once again thank:
    Matt24solo for the tour
    osokolo for the idea
    BCD for some top notch photos, and letting me try his wicked bike.
    Everyone else for the fabulous company.

    The trails we rode in the Copleand forest were indeed top notch. It's such a naturally beautiful area. All the climbs were followed by very rewarding descents. There were technical challenges; roots, log piles, steep descents, and berms. Weather and trail conditions were great. The ride was relatively incident free, with no injuries to riders or bikes. There were lots of huge smiles.

    It was also a treat to try out some lift assisted riding at Horseshoe. After our first run down the hill, I could not believe we were at the bottom already. After reminding myself we were in Ontario, I accepted it for what it was, and continued to feel out the trails. Though my skills and bike kept me away from the biggest features, there were still plenty of really fun features to be hit. The trails are actually really well done. Anything tough has a ride-around. More skilled riders can launch off certain features, while those less daring have the option of just rolling over them. Again, there were twists, and turns, and berms, and all kind of MTB goodness.

    It was definitely worth the drive from Niagara Falls. Traffic was not a problem at all.

    My pictures will be up shortly.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  20. #20
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    A few photos from today.

    Yes, there are hills, and everyone was walking this one.


    Photo session and catching a breather after one of the climbs



    And then we headed off to Horseshoe resort for some downhill riding. We warmed up on the easier runs to get a feel for the speed & terrain, then headed over to the advanced runs where I learned that directing traffic while riding a technical feature was not the brightest idea in the world.

    Oggie nails the bermed planks


    rkj__ hits the s-turn bridges



  21. #21
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    Last edited by rkj__; 09-05-2011 at 08:37 PM.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  22. #22
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    RKJ .... finally gets a new lid
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccaddy View Post
    RKJ .... finally gets a new lid
    I've been working at a bike shop this summer, and the deals I get allow me to consider buying items that I would otherwise never consider, due to cost. I tried on the Giro Ionos, and could not stop wanting it. After contemplating for a week or two, one of the plastic bits in the harness of my cheapo bell let go. It was a sign, I had to get the Ionos.

    The Ionos is my first "high end" helmet, and I must admit, the airflow is absolutely fantastic, it's light, and the fit is great.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Oggie nails the bermed planks


    That would be a perfect 1997 freeride pic. Narrow bars with a short travel fork.

  25. #25
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    glad everyone enjoyed the ride. no trails were harmed during the adventure and a few trails are actually cleaner from the group.

  26. #26
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    awesome pictures, looks like it was a fun time!
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  27. #27
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    Looks like it was an awesome ride! We were thinking of you guys when we were zooming by on 11. Really hoping I can make the next one!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  28. #28
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    Nice to meet everyone who came across the road and hit the bike park; looks like you had a blast!
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  29. #29
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    Wow. Looks like good times all around at both Copeland and Horseshoe. Nice double header. Thanks for the pics and stories.

  30. #30
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    Looks like the perfect way to have spent Labour Day Monday! Great pictures!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    That would be a perfect 1997 freeride pic. Narrow bars with a short travel fork.
    No wagon wheels in 97.

    Looks like you guys had a great time. Nice work.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    No wagon wheels in 97.

    Looks like you guys had a great time. Nice work.
    There was a guy in the park last week, 2nd run down and taco'd his 29er wheel and he had to sit on a bench and watch his buddies do laps...So we went and got him a rental and a full-faced helmet for free, under the condition he wipe that frown off.

    Oksolo seemed to fair better though, being a more graceful rider than the other guy.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefanb View Post
    There was a guy in the park last week, 2nd run down and taco'd his 29er wheel and he had to sit on a bench and watch his buddies do laps...So we went and got him a rental and a full-faced helmet for free, under the condition he wipe that frown off.

    Oksolo seemed to fair better though, being a more graceful rider than the other guy.
    That is wicked customer service.

  34. #34
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    no kidding... stefan was very welcoming

    to our little group as well, however, we decided to stick with our XC bikes and have as much fun with them as we could. And it indeed was fun. Took a few runs to warm up and gain some confidence to start catching some air. Bridges and walls were fun after I got acquainted with the demands... Wagon wheels were just fine, but would not try them on the drops, not that my skill level nor the bike would allow for that. But short of few features, everything else was quite rideable and totally fun. Good for building skills as well. Some tech rollovers and rocks were advantageous for big wheels.

    Good times were had. Recommended to all before the park closes...


    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    That is wicked customer service.

  35. #35
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    to our little group as well, however, we decided to stick with our XC bikes and have as much fun with them as we could. And it indeed was fun. Took a few runs to warm up and gain some confidence to start catching some air. Bridges and walls were fun after I got acquainted with the demands... Wagon wheels were just fine, but would not try them on the drops, not that my skill level nor the bike would allow for that. But short of few features, everything else was quite rideable and totally fun. Good for building skills as well. Some tech rollovers and rocks were advantageous for big wheels.

    Good times were had. Recommended to all before the park closes...
    Osokolo, if you don't have one I think you should get another bike and try it on the drops! I endorse nothing here and addiction to hang time is not my responsibility!

    Glad everybody had a good ride with no mechanicals/major crash and that salamander is pretty neat.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Osokolo, if you don't have one I think you should get another bike and try it on the drops! I endorse nothing here and addiction to hang time is not my responsibility!
    If you're rick rolling me when I click on that link, there's going to be words...

  37. #37
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    I am having a tough time with allergies (ragweed) right now so would not have been fun company, but that looked like an awesome ride. Next time, for sure....
    Strava made me do it....

  38. #38
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    uglued, I know how your feeling, won't be much longer

  39. #39
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    So many smiling faces....

    According to the pictures good times indeed.
    I haven't had a decent mtb ride for ages and I'm missing it a lot...

    I really hope it'll be an encore presentation sometime soon...

  40. #40
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    we hope to see you both join us next time

    this was truly an awesome experience, that took us to the root of why we love this sport... you'd fit in perfectly... hope you remain positive...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rkay View Post
    Looks like the perfect way to have spent Labour Day Monday! Great pictures!

  41. #41
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    excellent video. thanks

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    If you're rick rolling me when I click on that link, there's going to be words...
    You're safe. No Rick Roll.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  43. #43
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    Wow is that BCD on a log bridge.........I rub my eyes.....maybe it's photoshopped.....we need the forensic team to check this out... Looks like ever one had a great ride!

  44. #44
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    hehe, you see what pure peer presure

    does to otherwise humble and ordinary people...



    Quote Originally Posted by Near north View Post
    Wow is that BCD on a log bridge.........I rub my eyes.....maybe it's photoshopped.....we need the forensic team to check this out... Looks like ever one had a great ride!

  45. #45
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    Noway you must have had a bag of chocolate cookies or maybe you all promised to buy a Pugsley this winter...

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Near north View Post
    Noway you must have had a bag of chocolate cookies or maybe you all promised to buy a Pugsley this winter...
    Make that Hermit cookies please!!
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  47. #47
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    Fresh from the desk of Jason Murray, it looks like the Couchiching Conservancy is looking for people to help steward in Copeland!

    Read on if you're interested!

    If you visit the Copeland Forest for recreation and relaxation, we hope you will get involved in an innovative project to help put users of the Copeland Forest in the driver's seat. While the Ministry of Natural Resources will continue to have ultimate management control over Copeland, they are interested in working with those who use and love the forest to help with management decisions and participate in stewardship activities.

    Over the next three years, the Couchiching Conservancy will be coordinating the creation of a Copeland Forest Stewardship Committee, comprised of people like you who like to do anything from ski and snowshoe to horseback ride and picnic in the Copeland Forest.

    In the first phase, we are compiling scientific information such as a four-season biological inventory, a lichen study, aquatic species research, and a human footprint study. All of this information will ultimately help the stewardship committee make informed decisions. Additionally, we will be holding educational workshops (see "Wetlands and Watersheds" article) and speaking with as many people as possible about how you use the Copeland, how often, and what you value about it most.

    If you would like to be involved, please join our mailing list,and/or contact Dorthea Hangaard:dorthea@couchconservancy.ca (705) 326-1620
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  48. #48
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    positive development, i think...

    i hope this is an opportunity for Bill Payer, satan, Tom and few others to get recognized and actively involved in the development...

    it'd be interesting to hear their comments...

    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Fresh from the desk of Jason Murray, it looks like the Couchiching Conservancy is looking for people to help steward in Copeland!

    Read on if you're interested!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Fresh from the desk of Jason Murray, it looks like the Couchiching Conservancy is looking for people to help steward in Copeland!
    While no specific activities were excluded from the recreational uses of the land, I find it an ominous portent that mountain biking was not one of the listed uses.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    While no specific activities were excluded from the recreational uses of the land, I find it an ominous portent that mountain biking was not one of the listed uses.
    Yes, not to poo poo any users contacting them, but certainly that group must notice mountain biking as one of the larger user groups... everytime i've visited there have been other cyclists(IME more than hikers or horse - though oxfam(?) left tags around and there are the usual piles of horse "evidence").

    Never seen a picnic, though I have seen a decent amount of logging.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    While no specific activities were excluded from the recreational uses of the land, I find it an ominous portent that mountain biking was not one of the listed uses.
    This is the same group, that I had mentioned in a previous thread, that is anti-mountain biking. I can only hope we get our voices heard.

  52. #52
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    Myself and The Barrie Cycling club have added our names to the email list, the first newsletter I recieved had a big huge picture of a DH mtber on it. They are very aware the mtbing is an important draw to the forrest.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yes, not to poo poo any users contacting them, but certainly that group must notice mountain biking as one of the larger user groups... everytime i've visited there have been other cyclists(IME more than hikers or horse - though oxfam(?) left tags around and there are the usual piles of horse "evidence").

    Never seen a picnic, though I have seen a decent amount of logging.
    I would agree, we are one of the larger groups...and also the least liked/respected. Hopefully nobody outside of the biking community gets a glimpse in here, it is embarrassing enough being on the inside.

    There is no logging in Copeland, that would be one of the neighbouring forests, I believe. Bike tourism does not bring the cash that equestrian does, and bike owners do not have the political pull that horse owners and/or hikers or naturalist do, in general.

    This is a battle that has been fought, and lost more often than not, all over the continent. I just returned from a trip to California, to Marin County, that included a bunch of riding. The birthplace of mountain biking. The hollowed ground where Gary Fisher, Charlie Kelly, Allan Bond, Fred Wolf and Joe Breeze started what we love today. It was very, very sad. The bulk of the trip was spent riding at night and poaching because virtually all of the quality trail there is off limits to bikes.

    I am afraid that numbers will not win this battle. The lessons learned on this board.. out-shouting, bullying, mocking and ganging-up will not translate outside of Regional Bike Trails and Rides Forums > Eastern Canada

    This one will only be properly addressed with intellect and maturity... God help us all.


    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    i hope this is an opportunity for Bill Payer, satan, Tom and few others to get recognized and actively involved in the development...

    it'd be interesting to hear their comments...

    NOW folks would like comments from this group, nobody was too interested in what we had to say previously...but now interested since the agenda focuses on a need to "develop some standards before the place is totally overrun, ruined, and MNR kicks MTB'ers out." (to quote a Conservancy member directly)

    now that it seems that permanently getting kick outta this place is a distinct possibility, you want US to join a committee. brilliant! how about you all join the committee, you all attend endless mind-numbing meetings, we have been imploring with this group not to drive this issue to this point in time. Like us 'nut jobs' trying to keep it on-the-down-low are somehow responsible for this situation and the obvious choice now to waste our riding time in boardrooms... right, I can see that. not.

    well, I can tell you the mood is bitter, yes, more bitter. too bad we could not turn the clocks back and just shut the hell up about it. Yes, it was an inevitability, but the accellerator had been pressed....hard. I hope those with the 'lead foot' dig in and get recognized and actively involved in the development rather than just move on and exploit the next 'hidden gem'.

    What will not help at this point is to respond with an 'we told ya so' ..that seems WAY to obvious to me now and will probably be completely lost on the rest of ya and simply fodder for more pointless noise.

    I know... I will be 100% incorrect, and most likely called out once again as a selfish idiot and will probably be followed up with several uber clever .jpgs of facepalms and other hilarious images harvested in seconds via google

    I feel that I have been baited osokolo, you knew what Bill Payer, satan, Tom and few others would have to say. bait taken.
    Last edited by Bill Payer; 09-09-2011 at 07:55 AM. Reason: took a couple deep breaths, you should have seen the first draft :)
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  54. #54
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    Here are some more answers from the Couchiching Conservancy and the stewardship program they started.

    http://www.couchconservancy.ca/image...s-june2011.pdf

    quote from the artical

    "The forest is managed by the MNR as a Resource Management Area. That designation allows for many activities, including logging. The range of uses spans from hunting and fishing to mountain biking and horseback riding...Itís important to spell out what the Conservancy is not doing through this project. We are not taking over the management of the forest; that role rests firmly with the MNR, which holds full authority over Copeland. We arenít looking to stop specific user groups from using the forest, either. Rather, our role will be to help those users develop the tools and systems they need to make sure the things they love about Copeland will be preserved for the future."
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    There is no logging in Copeland, that would be one of the neighbouring forests, I believe.
    The selective logging was done in the Copeland just by my friend's cottage.

    Bike tourism does not bring the cash that equestrian does, and bike owners do not have the political pull that horse owners and/or hikers or naturalist do, in general.
    Of course not, it's called demographics.

    This is a battle that has been fought, and lost more often than not, all over the continent. I just returned from a trip to California, to Marin County, that included a bunch of riding. The birthplace of mountain biking. The hollowed ground where Gary Fisher, Charlie Kelly, Allan Bond, Fred Wolf and Joe Breeze started what we love today. It was very, very sad. The bulk of the trip was spent riding at night and poaching because virtually all of the quality trail there is off limits to bikes.
    So you went and illegally rode a bunch of trails yet become all indignant and upset that others are lawfully riding on the trails in your area? Given that you've just publicly admitted to illegally riding a bunch of trails, I'd venture to say that you've just done more damage to the public image of mountain bikers than the rest of us put together. Furthermore, having done the above, what makes you think you have the right or standing to tell us what we can or can't do? You've committed an illegal act and tarnished the image of mountain bikers in the process, and you presume to lecture us on the proper ethics of riding?

  56. #56
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    I probably should have mentioned in my original post that the Conservancy actually reached out to Jason/IMBA to invite MTB riders to the table.

    I don't know the players and I don't know the history but if experience tells me one thing a TRUE dialogue is always a good thing.

    I say if the Conservancy is extending a hand, it's time to put the past behind and grasp it.
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  57. #57
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    we have some PROMINENT MTB names

    living in the area - that can also help a LOT in promoting our case.

    Thanks swabag.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    Myself and The Barrie Cycling club have added our names to the email list, the first newsletter I recieved had a big huge picture of a DH mtber on it. They are very aware the mtbing is an important draw to the forrest.

  58. #58
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    and this is the KEY...

    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories View Post
    We arenít looking to stop specific user groups from using the forest, either. Rather, our role will be to help those users develop the tools and systems they need to make sure the things they love about Copeland will be preserved for the future."
    a certain group can learn a lot from this statement...

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    So you went and illegally rode a bunch of trails yet become all indignant and upset that others are lawfully riding on the trails in your area? Given that you've just publicly admitted to illegally riding a bunch of trails, I'd venture to say that you've just done more damage to the public image of mountain bikers than the rest of us put together. Furthermore, having done the above, what makes you think you have the right or standing to tell us what we can or can't do? You've committed an illegal act and tarnished the image of mountain bikers in the process, and you presume to lecture us on the proper ethics of riding?
    Ok......and this helps how?

    I am not sure that I am right.. but I hate to see you waste your effort while completely missing the point

    not sure this is the best use of my time but...
    - I did not attempt to tell anyone what to do or not do, I simply ask folks to keep it on the down low (this point is important and gets lost every single time).... 'lecture us on the proper ethics of riding' no pretty sure I was not. sometimes I too even roll thru city stop signs
    - this was 3000 miles way, but a valid point still Aerius. poaching it is wrong anywhere (although I do sympathize more with those with no reasonable options)
    - my point was that I will be doing the same thing here in a few years if the MTB community continues to poop in it's own backyard. building stunts, unauthorized trails, running races and events in inappropriate locations

    ...this group is looking to reign this in. this all actually suit those that I know well.

    the point is that this is clearly out in the open now. now those with an interest and concious will need to attend, participate and work for our place on these trails. I wanted to quietly ride, along with quiet others for as long as possible, not attend meetings

    but the promoters got their way and this has moved outside of mtbr.com > Regional Bike Trails and Rides Forums > Eastern Canada

    alright... floodgates are open, who is next to bait me into wasting more of my day?
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  60. #60
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    me please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    - I did not attempt to tell anyone what to do or not do, I simply ask folks to keep it on the down low (this point is important and gets lost every single time)....
    Why?

    Are you also involved and vocal in equestrian community, asking them to keep it down?


    - my point was that I will be doing the same thing here in a few years if the MTB community continues to **** in it's own backyard. building stunts, unauthorized trails, running races and events in inappropriate locations
    Why is Copeland Forest inappropriate location?
    It is public land. Permits are obtainable.


    I am not sure that I am right.. but I hate to see you waste your effort while completely missing the point
    I think Aerius made quite a good point in exposing hypocrisy. I guess the biggest point that can be made is against your policy of trying to restrict people, including MTBers to enjoy the public land at Copeland Forest. Everything else stems right from there. You can preach, but you don't do what you preach - does not matter if it is 3000 miles away or in your backyard. It is a moral and credibility issue.

    Can you try to explain it?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    alright... floodgates are open, who is next to bait me into wasting more of my day?
    I wasn't trying to bait you. I was genuinely excited to see Jason's message. As an outsider, it seemed like a golden opportunity for local riders to get face-to-face with the MNR in a productive way.

    My bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    now that it seems that permanently getting kick outta this place is a distinct possibility, you want US to join a committee. brilliant! how about you all join the committee, you all attend endless mind-numbing meetings, we have been imploring with this group not to drive this issue to this point in time. Like us 'nut jobs' trying to keep it on-the-down-low are somehow responsible for this situation and the obvious choice now to waste our riding time in boardrooms... right, I can see that. not.
    OK - so here's how I read your first message:
    - The ten or so extra riders who discovered Copeland through mtbr and the 50 or so who participated in the marathon a couple of years ago are solely responsible for a land manager deciding that pro-active management of the land is a good idea. Because it isn't your fault that they found out that you've been oh-so-secretly riding in there for years, you feel no sense of responsibility to step up and participate in this process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    - my point was that I will be doing the same thing here in a few years if the MTB community continues to poop in it's own backyard. building stunts, unauthorized trails, running races and events in inappropriate locations
    And here's how I read your second:
    - No matter how much effort people put in through IMBA, Barrie Cycling Club and personal participation, MTBers will be banned from Copeland (pessimistic, I'd say)
    - The unauthorised trails that you built and use are to blame.

    Fundamentally, it seems to me that a big issue in this area is that there isn't any kind of organisation that coordinates or manages trail building or use in the area. As a result, many users end up annoyed at certain building practices or uses, but have no outlet to be heard other than occasional b*tch sessions on the internet. However, now that there is the potential for an organisation to oversee such things, these same users (you) think it's wasted effort and can't be bothered to put in a bit of time for their own community.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. At minimum, donate some money to IMBA to put in the effort for you so you can continue to enjoy using your trails, and even maybe have some input into their use.

    I admit, I remain mystified at your reticence in sharing these trails when you're happy to use other trails. Most other builders are happy and proud to share their accomplishments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Why?

    Are you also involved and vocal in equestrian community, asking them to keep it down?




    Why is Copeland Forest inappropriate location?
    It is public land. Permits are obtainable.




    I think Aerius made quite a good point in exposing hypocrisy. I guess the biggest point that can be made is against your policy of trying to restrict people, including MTBers to enjoy the public land at Copeland Forest. Everything else stems right from there. You can preach, but you don't do what you preach - does not matter if it is 3000 miles away or in your backyard. It is a moral and credibility issue.

    Can you try to explain it?
    nope, not sure I can. my message does not get simpler than

    - I simply ask folks to keep it on the down low

    (see lost again )

    no, I am not part of any equestrian forums or communities.

    I sometimes have run with scissors.. once I rode without a helmet....how is this related, does this make me a bigger hypocrite? I am lost in all of the other noise. sorry.

    Nerdgirl... I wanted EVERYONE to ride quietly. it was foolish I suppose. I did not build an inch of trail there, did I say I did somewhere? I am suggesting that those who wish to promote and shout and profit from these trails would be obvious choices to attend the meetings is that wrong?

    I lied... I lied... I can't keep up and have nothing more to say on the topic... actually I do, but I do not have the time or energy to do so here, to no point. I suppose I will need to save up for the impeding group meetings and such YAAA!

    I don't want to fight with ya'll. This ship has sailed. nothing left to do but attend the meetings. (I am sorry, I deplore meetings)

    Osokolo asked what I thought, (I knew better, I was an idiot for responding). I can see now that I was wrong on all fronts, I apologize

    this is all great stuff, once again gang...thank you all for hearing me out with an open mind and ears! lets slap up a few facepalm images and call this one done.
    Last edited by Bill Payer; 09-09-2011 at 09:54 AM. Reason: I'm done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    I am suggesting that those who wish to promote and shout and profit from these trails would be obvious choices to attend the meetings is that wrong?
    I agree. Who are those people?

    I too hate meetings.Still, I've gone to a fair few in our area to advocate for local trails. It's been worth the hassle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Fundamentally, it seems to me that a big issue in this area is that there isn't any kind of organisation that coordinates or manages trail building or use in the area. As a result, many users end up annoyed at certain building practices or uses, but have no outlet to be heard other than occasional b*tch sessions on the internet. However, now that there is the potential for an organisation to oversee such things, these same users (you) think it's wasted effort and can't be bothered to put in a bit of time for their own community.
    A few things. I've been riding in Copeland for close to 15 years and during that time I've met countless hikers, runners, horse riders and other trail users. I also know & ride with several of the locals who live right on the forest and ride there every day. As far as I know the conflicts & discontent amongst other trail users which is alleged by Bill Payer are highly overblown. The only complaints I've heard were the large A-frame log-over which was originally a sizable jump/drop that could cream an unsuspecting rider, which was why a bridge going down from the log was added soon thereafter. No issues since then. That and the jumps & bridges over the fallen trees on one of the trailheads. For the latter, the jumps & bridges were removed and the area was selectively logged so it's a moot point anyway.

  66. #66
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    I am sorry to hear that...

    I just asked for your comment - and you went on the same tirade that we are so familiar with. I felt that you would not like the fact that there will be some sort of stewardship over the public area. I also suspected that you would not want to be involved. That is all fine. Your choice and completely within personal parameters.

    Obviously there is no point in continuing discussion as this has been rehashed many times.

    We agree on many things, but we also disagree on many. One of which is "keeping the toy just for yourself", but there are few more.

    The discussion was completely unproductive and did not mend any fences, unfortunately.

    BTW, I totally do not see this move as something that will see MTBers booted out of the forest. Absolutely not.

    Nerdgirl and Aerius made some very good points. I agree with most of them.

    Ride on Bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    nope, not sure I can. my message does not get simpler than

    - I simply ask folks to keep it on the down low

    (see lost again )

    no, I am not part of any equestrian forums or communities.

    I sometimes have run with scissors.. once I rode without a helmet....how is this related, does this make me a bigger hypocrite? I am lost in all of the other noise. sorry.

    Nerdgirl... I wanted EVERYONE to ride quietly. it was foolish I suppose. I did not build an inch of trail there, did I say I did somewhere? I am suggesting that those who wish to promote and shout and profit from these trails would be obvious choices to attend the meetings is that wrong?

    I lied... I lied... I can't keep up and have nothing more to say on the topic... actually I do, but I do not have the time or energy to do so here, to no point. I suppose I will need to save up for the impeding group meetings and such YAAA!

    I don't want to fight with ya'll. This ship has sailed. nothing left to do but attend the meetings. (I am sorry, I deplore meetings)

    Osokolo asked what I thought, (I knew better, I was an idiot for responding). I can see now that I was wrong on all fronts, I apologize

    this is all great stuff, once again gang...thank you all for hearing me out with an open mind and ears! lets slap up a few facepalm images and call this one done.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    For the latter, the jumps & bridges were removed and the area was selectively logged so it's a moot point anyway.
    About the selective logging, is Copeland a pine plantation? If it is, the selective logging is probably something set out in the MNR's Forest Management Plan.

    Regular thinning of plantations aids succession and it would be another great reason to get involved since then, you wouldn't waste time building/maintaining trails in areas that are due to be thinned anyway.
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    Bike tourism does not bring the cash that equestrian does, and bike owners do not have the political pull that horse owners and/or hikers or naturalist do, in general.
    Got any real facts to back that up? Have any actual bike rider vs horse rider usage numbers?

    Who says that the horse or hiker group have more political pull? Perhaps they are more organized.

    If you guys want to preserve your trails it's time to get organized. Learn from what other local communities have done to save their trails.

    North Vancouver has gone from risk of loosing all illegally built trails to having them recognized and accepted to now having the local municipal government putting tax dollars into building and maintaining them. It's been a huge amount of hard work from dedicated volunteers that are passionate about saving the trails. The hard work is finally paying off.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    I would agree, we are one of the larger groups...and also the least liked/respected. Hopefully nobody outside of the biking community gets a glimpse in here, it is embarrassing enough being on the inside.

    There is no logging in Copeland, that would be one of the neighbouring forests, I believe. Bike tourism does not bring the cash that equestrian does, and bike owners do not have the political pull that horse owners and/or hikers or naturalist do, in general.

    This is a battle that has been fought, and lost more often than not, all over the continent. I just returned from a trip to California, to Marin County, that included a bunch of riding. The birthplace of mountain biking. The hollowed ground where Gary Fisher, Charlie Kelly, Allan Bond, Fred Wolf and Joe Breeze started what we love today. It was very, very sad. The bulk of the trip was spent riding at night and poaching because virtually all of the quality trail there is off limits to bikes.

    I am afraid that numbers will not win this battle. The lessons learned on this board.. out-shouting, bullying, mocking and ganging-up will not translate outside of Regional Bike Trails and Rides Forums > Eastern Canada

    This one will only be properly addressed with intellect and maturity... God help us all.
    Really though... you been to a public meeting of any type? It really is not so different than here and the intellectual and mature aspects often do not seem obvious! In that respect we may be blessed! Please, continue to grind your axe though...

    I was also surprised to hear a few year ago that it is basically impossible to legally MTB in marin county. As you know - they've banned bicycles everywhere, even from trails cyclists cut out.

    The logging was done on the south western border of copeland forest. I suspect like most county forest(dufferin and 7/8th is another) occasional and limited logging is done by permit as means for the country to raise money.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudhead View Post
    This is the same group, that I had mentioned in a previous thread, that is anti-mountain biking. I can only hope we get our voices heard.
    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    Myself and The Barrie Cycling club have added our names to the email list, the first newsletter I recieved had a big huge picture of a DH mtber on it. They are very aware the mtbing is an important draw to the forrest.
    Perhaps they've switched ideology as numbers for hiking only support would be low. Given this group has already tipped their anti-mtb card though - would it be smart to trust them?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    The logging was done on the south western border of copeland forest. I suspect like most county forest(dufferin and 7/8th is another) occasional and limited logging is done by permit as means for the country to raise money.
    In Hamilton, the HCA has to pay people to do the thinning. There's not enough money in the lumber to get anyone out on their own to take it away!
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Perhaps they've switched ideology as numbers for hiking only support would be low. Given this group has already tipped their anti-mtb card though - would it be smart to trust them?
    Given that they have the MNR's ear, it may be the smartest path either way. Keep your enemies close!
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    About the selective logging, is Copeland a pine plantation? If it is, the selective logging is probably something set out in the MNR's Forest Management Plan.

    Regular thinning of plantations aids succession and it would be another great reason to get involved since then, you wouldn't waste time building/maintaining trails in areas that are due to be thinned anyway.
    As I understand it, the forest is a mix of the original deciduous forest with sections of former pine & softwood tree farms. You're riding along through normal forest then suddenly all the trees are in regularly spaced rows, then it's back to normal forest.

    I'm not sure why they logged the section near one of the trailheads but it's possible tippy trees might've been part of the reason; that area was rather prone to trees falling over in a stiff breeze. Considering that it was one guy on an ATV doing the work over a period of months, I rather doubt they made any money on it.

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    I just returned from a trip to California, to Marin County, that included a bunch of riding. The birthplace of mountain biking. The hollowed ground where Gary Fisher, Charlie Kelly, Allan Bond, Fred Wolf and Joe Breeze started what we love today. It was very, very sad. The bulk of the trip was spent riding at night and poaching because virtually all of the quality trail there is off limits to bikes.
    I'm one of the people whose names appear above. I rip "Repack" any time I want, at any speed I want and I have never been hassled about that.

    I can ride the gnarliest singletrack in Marin County at Tamarancho, and I would remind others that these trails did not exist "back in the day," but have been built and maintained more recently by mountain bikers, for mountain bikers. Whatever trails have been "lost" (Northside?) are more than made up for by new ones in Marin County. You want to see trails, don't sneak in and poach them, ride with a local who knows where they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Repack Rider View Post
    I'm one of the people whose names appear above.
    I <3 MTBR. Cheers RR!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repack Rider View Post
    I'm one of the people whose names appear above. I rip "Repack" any time I want, at any speed I want and I have never been hassled about that.


    Hey Repack Rider, thanks for visiting the Eastern Canada forum. And especially thank you for helping to invent my most favourite thing in the world.
    Strava made me do it....

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    Thanks Bill. Well said.

    After being called a liar the last time I posted trying to get a point across, I said to myself that I was done here. I guess its tough to watch this crap continue without saying a few things.

    Great to see people step up to the plate now that we NEED to. Will I be involved? Of course I will. Its my backyard and my family and I want to be able to use it. I hope some of the $hit disturbers step up to the plate. Its long overdue.

    Oggie. I have no other comment. Anything I would say won't be positive and make you all happy so I will just keep it to myself.

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    Bill and Satan, I sincerely hope you do choose to get involved. I know meetings are boring but such is the way of our world these days. As riders, we rely on a network of well-intentioned people to step up and speak up for us as a group to help keep our sport alive in Ontario and around the world.

    FWIW, from the IMBA Google group, another user just posted this:

    "FYI, Jason, and I think you already know this - I am told there is a core group who have been riding and tending to trail for at least 10 years - I hope they can/will get involved."

    Happy trails!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repack Rider View Post
    I'm one of the people whose names appear above. I rip "Repack" any time I want, at any speed I want and I have never been hassled about that.

    I can ride the gnarliest singletrack in Marin County at Tamarancho, and I would remind others that these trails did not exist "back in the day," but have been built and maintained more recently by mountain bikers, for mountain bikers. Whatever trails have been "lost" (Northside?) are more than made up for by new ones in Marin County. You want to see trails, don't sneak in and poach them, ride with a local who knows where they are.
    Very cool Repack Rider.

    I was with some locals. We did ride China Camp and Tamarancho, and we bought passes for both, but they couldn't stop talking about Mnt. Tam.....probably just a case of wanting what you can't have. (certainly not going to argue with you, a king of locals)

    I was told by others that night riding was not allowed and that speed limits were enforced at all of these areas, bike legal or not. It sounded like a lot of legislation that I hope we are not heading into.

    ... but I suppose some is urban legend and some a case of focusing on the negatives. maye not hooking up with the right folks to show me around. PM me, I will be back in a couple months (I can keep it on-the-down-low) heh heh

    ****

    I agree that nothing has been gained thru hours of keyboard mashing here. I will certainly be involved and we do have a common goal.

    My biggest problem is bemoaning how quickly we got to this point and how I believe it could have been prolonged. foolish. Nothing is gained by that now. (some would suggest that a dozen or so years is not 'quickly' but it goes by fast.)

    full steam ahead, right! meetings... agendas, wildlife studies and trail impact reports. carving up the trails to designate which ones will be for horses, which ones will be for hiking and those that we are allowed to bike on. hey! maybe on alternating weeks we can trade trails with the horses? cool

    I try to be a glass 1/2 full guy... but it is HARD! I am sure it will be just fine.

    Satan2, thanks. I know it is exasperating, hope you stick around.

    Garage Monster, Yes I will certainly do my part. I sincerely hope that all the other Copeland locals and experts on here get involved.
    Last edited by Bill Payer; 09-09-2011 at 08:16 PM.
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  80. #80
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    I will ask you one question - same question

    Bill asked of Aerius - how does that help?

    I will change that question to: how can I help?

    Let's put it this way - Copeland Forest will be ridden - it is completely beyond our control. That is the fact. The question is what can we do to save it under current circumstances - forget who rides it and how many... We can not affect that.

    Satan - you are not here to make anyone happy. You are not here for anyone else, but for yourself because you share the same passion as everyone else around here. Intrawebz is a weird animal. Lots of statements come across in a wrong way, many thoughts are misinterpreted. When we ride together - it is completely different story. I don't know if you are a loner, if yes, I understand why you would not want to ride with anyone.

    However, if you are not - let's go for a ride and talk about what we can do to get the most out of the situation. Ignoring me and others that ride Copeland will not help. Even if no one, other than locals, rode Copeland - we would be facing the same issue.

    So lets maximize our stakes. Try me. What have you got to lose?

    Same applies to Bill and Tom. We have much more in common than you think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    Thanks Bill. Well said.

    After being called a liar the last time I posted trying to get a point across, I said to myself that I was done here. I guess its tough to watch this crap continue without saying a few things.

    Great to see people step up to the plate now that we NEED to. Will I be involved? Of course I will. Its my backyard and my family and I want to be able to use it. I hope some of the $hit disturbers step up to the plate. Its long overdue.

    Oggie. I have no other comment. Anything I would say won't be positive and make you all happy so I will just keep it to myself.

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    cool to have you here RR...

    if you ever come to this neck of the woods - make sure you let us know so that we can go for a ride...

    Quote Originally Posted by Repack Rider View Post
    I'm one of the people whose names appear above. I rip "Repack" any time I want, at any speed I want and I have never been hassled about that.

    I can ride the gnarliest singletrack in Marin County at Tamarancho, and I would remind others that these trails did not exist "back in the day," but have been built and maintained more recently by mountain bikers, for mountain bikers. Whatever trails have been "lost" (Northside?) are more than made up for by new ones in Marin County. You want to see trails, don't sneak in and poach them, ride with a local who knows where they are.

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    So...moving on. Where is everyone riding next weekend?
    Strava made me do it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    So...moving on. Where is everyone riding next weekend?
    I will riding Sunday in Gravenhurst to the Torrance Barrens and back at the 'Puppy Pedal' to raise money for the Lions Club Guide Dog program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Payer View Post
    full steam ahead, right! meetings... agendas, wildlife studies and trail impact reports. carving up the trails to designate which ones will be for horses, which ones will be for hiking and those that we are allowed to bike on. hey! maybe on alternating weeks we can trade trails with the horses? cool
    Although the Couchicing Conservatory group is involved at the request of the MNR, we do have a something going for us. That is that Copeland is within Simcoe County. The County Forestry department is the most proactive in the province as far as making their land available for interested groups. The Recreational Policy which was revamped in 2006 allows user groups to use their forests (approx 170 of them) for activities such as hunting, biking horseback riding, dirtbikes, atv's snowmobiles etc. The County forestry dept. is self-sustaining through the sale of land, sale of lumber replanting etc. All that by 2 dedicated individuals. They are in the process of getting their lumber designated with the highest certification available. The point I am making with this is that if their land can still produce high quality lumber even though people are using the lands for activities that the environmentalists would deem harmful to those lands, we may have a fighting chance with Copeland. So while I'm sure there will be wildlife studies and trail impact reports, hopefully some input can come from Simcoe County in how little damage is being caused by allowing shared use trails in forest lands.

    My personal opinion is that while there needs to be people step up and help fight for the right to continue using Copeland land, it must also be done with as little publicity as possible. The more this is promoted the less likely the area will be accepting of change. We are all aware of land that is being closed off to mountain biking, we bring most of that on ourselves. Thats just my opinion, so please don't bash me for it.

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    way to go!

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    Although the Couchicing Conservatory group is involved at the request of the MNR, we do have a something going for us. That is that Copeland is within Simcoe County. The County Forestry department is the most proactive in the province as far as making their land available for interested groups. The Recreational Policy which was revamped in 2006 allows user groups to use their forests (approx 170 of them) for activities such as hunting, biking horseback riding, dirtbikes, atv's snowmobiles etc. The County forestry dept. is self-sustaining through the sale of land, sale of lumber replanting etc. All that by 2 dedicated individuals. They are in the process of getting their lumber designated with the highest certification available. The point I am making with this is that if their land can still produce high quality lumber even though people are using the lands for activities that the environmentalists would deem harmful to those lands, we may have a fighting chance with Copeland. So while I'm sure there will be wildlife studies and trail impact reports, hopefully some input can come from Simcoe County in how little damage is being caused by allowing shared use trails in forest lands.
    do we have any relationship with these two people? can they get involved in the process?

    My personal opinion is that while there needs to be people step up and help fight for the right to continue using Copeland land, it must also be done with as little publicity as possible.
    definitely. can you elaborate on publicity please? not saying right or wrong - just don't understand why either way.

    The more this is promoted the less likely the area will be accepting of change. We are all aware of land that is being closed off to mountain biking, we bring most of that on ourselves. Thats just my opinion, so please don't bash me for it.
    not sure that it is us who bring most of that on ourselves. as ignorant as some members of MTB community can be - you can find same examples on all sides. when we rode Copeland last weekend - we could see piles of horse droppings. last week at Palgrave we saw even more horse belongings, some of which were so big and so in the middle of the trail that if hit with speed - it could have been detrimental to bikes and riders.

    atv damage need not be explained.

    however, they are either better organized or have more influence within the committees or simply do a better job blaming someone else. at the same time, i don't know of any equestrian who helped in building trails anywhere. so while we certainly do not help ourselves as much as we can - i don't think we are as bad as we are painted. it is all politics and it is very unfair.

    however, i like the direction you and Bill seem to be taking. i am seriously suggesting that you guys take the lead - not that you have any other options - BUT - let us know how we can help. you've got nothing to lose.

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    Staying local so BW or the Village for our group Sunday morning

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    do we have any relationship with these two people? can they get involved in the process?
    Yes I do. I would assume they are involved already.

    definitely. can you elaborate on publicity please? not saying right or wrong - just don't understand why either way.
    While mountain bikers think they are doing nothing wrong, and I agree for the most part, the rest of the public may not agree. The more people that know there is meeting, the more people come out to try and stop what others enjoy for their own selfish reasons. As an example. If I live agross the street from the parking lot at Copeland and I bought there because its a quiet road with very little traffic, I might not support the use of Copelkand for others to do any activity because if will bring traffic . While that person is only 1 voice, its a voice that will be heard over the people that want to do the activity. (There used to be a commercial "they tell 2 friends and they tell 2 friend") Why is that, cause they live there and can make crap up. I have seen that 1st hand at other meetings similar to what we are about to embark on.


    not sure that it is us who bring most of that on ourselves. as ignorant as some members of MTB community can be - you can find same examples on all sides.
    Have a look at Ajax/Pickering northshore thread. If you still don't get it, there is nothing else that Bill, Tom or I can explain that will help.

    when we rode Copeland last weekend - we could see piles of horse droppings. last week at Palgrave we saw even more horse belongings, some of which were so big and so in the middle of the trail that if hit with speed - it could have been detrimental to bikes and riders.
    If you think we can compete with horses, you are sadly mistaken. I am the first to agree that horses cause alot of damage, however the tree huggers love horses. They are nature in its own element.


    atv damage need not be explained.
    What about your damage. If you rode the swamp last week, I would suggest that you did cause damage. Did you get your bike covered in mud. That = damage. What happned to, "we would never ride if the conditions were not right". It rained for 2 days prior to that. One day being a major storm with substancial rain.


    however, they are either better organized or have more influence within the committees or simply do a better job blaming someone else. at the same time, i don't know of any equestrian who helped in building trails anywhere. so while we certainly do not help ourselves as much as we can - i don't think we are as bad as we are painted. it is all politics and it is very unfair.
    They are not organized at all and they don't need to be. See above. You are right, they have never lifted a finger to help with trails. Why would they, others do their work for them plus they used to have roads. Now they have fireroads and any other trail they can bash the horse through.

    however, i like the direction you and Bill seem to be taking. i am seriously suggesting that you guys take the lead - not that you have any other options - BUT - let us know how we can help. you've got nothing to lose.
    Of course you are suggesting we take the lead. Its the easy thing to do. I think I already said what people should do, Step up, get involved and not just wait for someone else to do it. Swabag has done it already. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan2 View Post
    What about your damage. If you rode the swamp last week, I would suggest that you did cause damage. Did you get your bike covered in mud. That = damage. What happned to, "we would never ride if the conditions were not right". It rained for 2 days prior to that. One day being a major storm with substancial rain.
    My bike hasn't been ridden nor cleaned since the Copeland/Horseshoe Resort double header on Monday.



    Look at all that mud! Why I must've totally trashed the trails!
    Most of that was from Horseshoe where I veered off into the bush after a run, which was witnessed by both Oggie and rkj_.

    Oh, one more thing. We rode through the swamp. I was riding sweep. There were no tracks left, period. Anywhere.

    Oh. And one last thing. You may be able to convince others that the trails are completely unfit for riding the day after it rains, afterall, that is how most typical trails are. But don't try to pull that BS here since both you and I know how well those trails actually drain. It takes a lot more rain than we got to make the trails unfit for riding.

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    I don't know man.... There is so much bitterness, almost anger between the lines you wrote, and I am not saying that to pi$$ you off or bait you or anything negative. It is so disarming and disappointing.

    Aerius posted pics of his bike. I can not fathom why you would assume we would damage trails like we are the enemy. Many other assumptions are made in the same fashion by you...

    It is natural that Swabag and you and Tom and Bill are involved, as it is in your neck of the woods. If there is a meeting about our cause in my neck of the woods - I would not expect you to be there, but I would be - without you suggesting it...

    Don't know what else to say, really. I'll stay away from your posts. I see nothing positive coming out of this, really. No matter what I say - your tunes are the same. If you think we can help and change your tone - I will welcome that change.

    Take care...

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    Ganaraska for Pauls DE

  91. #91
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    Was in there this week! Conditions are awesome!
    Last edited by stefanb; 09-10-2011 at 05:20 PM.
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    Off topic slightly but can you link the trails at Bass Lake side road and 6th line into Copeland ? I seem to recall the Hardwood Hills Raid course might have but not really sure if what looks like a trail head is indeed such ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-t- View Post
    Off topic slightly but can you link the trails at Bass Lake side road and 6th line into Copeland ? I seem to recall the Hardwood Hills Raid course might have but not really sure if what looks like a trail head is indeed such ?
    Yeah probably, but it's a hell of a hike. You'd have to pass through Sugarbush too. Not 100% if there is anything cut the entire way though.

    Oh also, you're not allowed to discuss those trails publicly, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiotMTB View Post
    Ganaraska for Pauls DE
    Me too! Can't wait to spend the whole day on the bike....
    Strava made me do it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by stefanb View Post
    Yeah probably, but it's a hell of a hike. You'd have to pass through Sugarbush too. Not 100% if there is anything cut the entire way though.

    Oh also, you're not allowed to discuss those trails publicly, either.
    Do you mean hike as in hike a bike or hike as in distance ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Why I must've totally trashed the trails!
    We rode through the swamp. I was riding sweep. There were no tracks left, period. Anywhere.

    Oh. And one last thing. You may be able to convince others that the trails are completely unfit for riding the day after it rains, afterall, that is how most typical trails are. But don't try to pull that BS here since both you and I know how well those trails actually drain. It takes a lot more rain than we got to make the trails unfit for riding.

    I made a quote in relation to the damage that atv's cause. I just said that we do cause damage.

    I know that the high trails drain very well there but the swamp and creek trails do not. I would be careful saying that you did not leave any marks. Remember the photos of your ride were posted earlier.Copeland Forest ride - Labour day - Monday-img_7326.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-t- View Post
    Off topic slightly but can you link the trails at Bass Lake side road and 6th line into Copeland ? I seem to recall the Hardwood Hills Raid course might have but not really sure if what looks like a trail head is indeed such ?
    There were some white trail markings in Copeland that are possibly from the Ganaraska trail. I need to find my Ganaraska trail guide to confirm if that trail goes through there, but I am sure that the trails you mention a near Bass Lake side road are also from the Ganaraska Trail. I was marshall for one of Hardwood's Raids a few years back. and part of that course was indeed on the Ganaraska Trail. There is a spur of trail that leaves the main trail and leads towards Midland, and with only two or three bridges over the 400 along that corridor, the blazes in Copeland might just be part of that spur.

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    I remember a while ago we did a Lake to Lake North (run by the Lake to Lake guys from the south) it went from Bass Lake to the Horseshoe Valley ski hill. short ride on Bass lake rd. and then mostly trails.

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    Paul's on Saturday. I hope it pisses rain from Wed on so my riding it will further piss off the usuall suspets off.

    Then DJ's on Sunday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post





    Okay I'l bite since Satan is on his podium ranting away with this as an example of how evil this ride was.

    It's so much easier to blame the riders then the failure of trail work. There is so much fail in that one pic. First off look at all the crap under the so called bridging. No wonder it isn't moving. I have lost track of how many problems I have come across that quickly improve by taking the time to clear out the drainage a few times a year.

    Then add in the lousy bridging job. Most of that would be improved by simply putting some time in to actually do the work. As Singlesprocket about his dolly system to move the material in.

    I know you will suggest I come up and do it. But with how you lot act on here why would I? Blow $50 in gas one way to do work to benefit a bunch self rihteous twits? Yeah, right.

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