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  1. #1
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    CCA to Enforce UCI Rule?

    Canadian Cyclist - UCI Tells Federations to Enforce Rules Over Non-Sanctioned Events

    What a joke this is. This sounds like the nonsense Frank Shorter, Pre, and Brian Oldfield fought against.

  2. #2
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    They can pry my UCI license from my cold, dead hands.

    I think the UCI and consequently the CCA and OCA should focus on being the best governing bodies they can be. They should do what they can to work with all organizers, understanding why they may not want/can't be sanctioned and work on correcting these issues where possible. If they are unresolvable, then obviously one segment is providing a service that cannot be met by their guidelines and if they choose to keep it that way, the athletes shouldn't feel the brunt of organizers and organizations being unable to meet on common ground.

    They are going to alienate a crap load of people if this does actually come to fruition.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    They can pry my UCI license from my cold, dead hands.

    I think the UCI and consequently the CCA and OCA should focus on being the best governing bodies they can be. They should do what they can to work with all organizers, understanding why they may not want/can't be sanctioned and work on correcting these issues where possible. If they are unresolvable, then obviously one segment is providing a service that cannot be met by their guidelines and if they choose to keep it that way, the athletes shouldn't feel the brunt of organizers and organizations being unable to meet on common ground.

    They are going to alienate a crap load of people if this does actually come to fruition.
    Already has in the states.

    UCI, USA Cycling clarify rule barring UCI-licensed riders from unsanctioned events

    Really this is all about control and wanting access to the money. Interesting how there is a huge race scene in Oregon not under UCI sanctioned national body control. Now that it is incredibly successful they want their cut.

    As one comment I read a couple of days ago pointed out this whole thing that is now spreading around the world thanks to Pat McQuaid's love note. All this is doing is as you said Capt Sydor creating a divide. And to me if I say I was in charge of this stuff at OCA and wanted to drive away present and future members this is a pretty good way. To me letting guys race at say the HCC Sydenham hill climb while unsanctioned. Well, those racers are the advertising. They are the face of it all and when they can't do that you lose touch of a valuable recruiting tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Already has in the states.

    Really this is all about control and wanting access to the money. Interesting how there is a huge race scene in Oregon not under UCI sanctioned national body control. Now that it is incredibly successful they want their cut.

    As one comment I read a couple of days ago pointed out this whole thing that is now spreading around the world thanks to Pat McQuaid's love note. All this is doing is as you said Capt Sydor creating a divide. And to me if I say I was in charge of this stuff at OCA and wanted to drive away present and future members this is a pretty good way. To me letting guys race at say the HCC Sydenham hill climb while unsanctioned. Well, those racers are the advertising. They are the face of it all and when they can't do that you lose touch of a valuable recruiting tool.
    When I say come to fruition, I mean actually happen. Still just threats and interpretation of the language. Haven't heard of any large class of people loosing their license (which if applied across the board and not in some individual cases would have happened by now). Actually the threats happened here 3-4 years ago with the squeezer.

    And just for clarification, the HCC hill climbs are sanctioned as we are an affiliated club and you must be a member of the OCA to participate.

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    it will be interesting to see how it shakes out, the OCA did bluff a few years ago and they got called on it. We'll see if it happens with USAC I read somewhere they did fine riders last year for Teva, but it was only 50 bucks and the riders made way more than that, but with threatened suspensions the USAC upped the ainty(sp?)

    US athletes are already bringing up the fact the Canadians will not face any sanctions at the event in question. Which may result in USAC going back to the UCI and demanding they strongarm other NSO's into being consistent across the board. All this could get pushed down to the PSO's as well.

    we'll see,

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    ...the USAC upped the ainty(sp?)
    ante

    Here's the article about the Teva fines. Funny that they read a Twitter comment then decided to fine them.

    Analysis: Is USAC feeding grass roots, or trampling them?

    I'm not familiar with how things are structured in the US. Aren't things a little more confusing? It seems to me that there are a lot of big events that the USAC does not have a hand in. It seems to me that the structure is not as cut and dry as it is in Ontario.

    Edit: NORBA, I was trying to think of NORBA. Aren't they the overseers of multiple events? How do they factor in?
    Last edited by thedumbopinion; 04-06-2013 at 06:41 PM.

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    Someone has put forth that there is a possibility that Pat McQuaid and the UCI's instructions will be in violation of the Sherman Act.

    Sherman Antitrust Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  8. #8
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    It's a bit like an AFM (American Federation of Musicians) member not being able to play a non-union gig or with non-union members or risk sanction or expulsion.
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    Actually the threats happened here 3-4 years ago with the squeezer.
    That was the OCA. And I believe the OCA had also sent out a note about that at the beginning of a season. However this recent situation has ramifications in Canada thanks to this memo from the desk of Pat "The Weasel" McQuaid.

    Pat McQuaid, "Forbidden Races" | News | CyclingDirt


    President

    To all National Federations

    Sent by email only

    Aigle, 26 March 2013
    Ref.' Presidency

    Re: forbidden races

    Dear President,

    lt has recently come to our attention that some National Federations are experiencing difficulties in the interpretation and application of the rules relating to "forbidden races", namely Articles 1.2.019l 1.2.020 and 1.2.021 ofthe UCl Regulations.

    With this in mind, we would like to provide the following clarification which we hope you will find useful.

    Article 12.019 ofthe UCI Regulations states:

    "No licence holder may participate in an event that has not been included on a national, continental or world calendar or that has not been recognised by a national federation, a continental confederation or the UCI.

    A national federation may grant special exceptions for races or particular events run in its own country. "

    The objective of this regulation is to protect the hard Work and resources you pour into the development of your events at national level. lt allows for a federative structure, something which is inherent in organised sport and which is essential to being a part of the Olympic movement.

    Of Course the regulation also allows the UCI, in line with its mission as an international federation, to guarantee uniform regulation.

    Article 12.019 applies to all licence holders, Without exception. lt does not solely concern professional riders or just the members of UCI teams, contrary to certain statements in the press and on some blogs.

    The second paragraph of Article 12.019 affords each national federation the facility to grant a special exception for specific races or events taking place in its territory.

    Special races or events are understood to be cycle events which are not registered on the national Calendar of the country's federation or on the UCI international Calendar. This generally Concerns events that are occasional and which do not recur, most often organised by persons or entities who do not belong to the World of organised sport. For example, an event may be organised by an association that does not have a link to the National Federation, such as a race specifically for members of the armed forces, fire fighters or students or perhaps as part of a national multisport event.

    With the exception of these special Cases, the National Federation is not permitted to grant an exemption to a Cycle event which is held, deliberately or not, outside the federative movement. For example, in no case should an exception be granted to a Cycling event that is organised by a person or entity who regularly organises Cycling events.

    The objective of Article 12.019 is that exemptions should only be granted in exceptional cases.

    Licence holders who participate in a "forbidden race" make themselves liable not only to sanctions by their National Federation, as scheduled by Article 12.021 of the UCI regulations, but also run the risk of not having sufficient insurance cover in the event of an accident.

    Thank you for your attention to this matter.

    Please accept our kindest regards,

    Pat McQuaid
    President


  10. #10
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    Now speaking of entering and competing in as Pat McQuaid calles "Forbidden" events. I find this tidbit interesting,

    Pat McQuaid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    He was banned from entering the 1976 Olympics after being caught racing in South Africa, in contravention of the anti-apartheid sporting boycott. He had entered the race using a false name, but was identified after being photographed by a press photographer.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedumbopinion View Post

    I'm not familiar with how things are structured in the US. Aren't things a little more confusing? It seems to me that there are a lot of big events that the USAC does not have a hand in. It seems to me that the structure is not as cut and dry as it is in Ontario.
    I wouldn't say everything here is as cut and dry in Ontario or in Canada in general. Just that here in Ontario we don't have as much of a developed non OCA race scene. But if you go to say places like the Fraser Valley in BC you have thye opposite and same in Whistler. Racing here is primarily been focused on OCUP's and that is only a small area of the province. Brockville has a race scene that has no connection to OCA.




    Quote Originally Posted by thedumbopinion View Post

    Edit: NORBA, I was trying to think of NORBA. Aren't they the overseers of multiple events? How do they factor in?
    NORBA used to be a seperate body. But it is now part of USAC so what USAC decries they will have to follow.

  12. #12
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    Where the **** are anti-trust laws and regulations when this crap shows up? If this continues, I see no reason for a business (say a grocery store chain) to offer "memberships" for better prices and then penalize you when you go buy something elsewhere.

    I cannot even begin to understand why this is tolerated.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Where the **** are anti-trust laws and regulations when this crap shows up? If this continues, I see no reason for a business (say a grocery store chain) to offer "memberships" for better prices and then penalize you when you go buy something elsewhere.

    I cannot even begin to understand why this is tolerated.
    Bingo.

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    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    UCI can get bent. Strong arm tactics.

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    This makes me want to find the nearest non-UCI event and go and sign up for it
    Strava made me do it....

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    This makes me want to find the nearest non-UCI event and go and sign up for it
    SIX IN THE HOOD

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    This makes me want to find the nearest non-UCI event and go and sign up for it
    Graham Fraser's Centurion Cycling event does not require any license. Don't forget those Gan Fondo's as well.

  21. #21
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    The FQSC (Quebec's version of the OCA) handed out suspensions to card carrying members who did the mountain bike leg of the run-bike-kayak Ultimate XC race held at Mont Tremblant back in 2010. Apparently the FQSC approached the organizers about sanctioning/insuring the event under them ($$$), but they were already sanctioned/insured under another organization and declined. The FQSC had someone at the event taking photos of the racers. Suspensions followed.

    The Ultimate XC was officially sanctioned by the FQSC the following year, but I guess the organizers found it wasn't worth the extra expense and bother dealing with the federation; AFAIK, mountain biking was dropped from the event.

    You can read about it here:

    Chroniques de Gilles

    Google translate version:

    Google Translate

  22. #22
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    the fqsc is retarded. at an ocup dh race that was held at camp fortune a few years ago, they insinuated themselves into it just to get some money, they added no value. they did stopwatch timing, but because we were used to Al's fine set up (he didn't make it one time because of a prior engagement), and they knew it because they're seen our operation in the years prior, this year - the first and last they sent out a whole crew of commissiares - they set up photo-eye with wire running to nowhere. they're a f*cking joke. the poor quebec racers that have to put up with that phoney money grubbing bs all the time...

    Also I find it silly that some of these 'sports officials' are 200-300 lbers that looks like they never been on a bike (like the ginormous fqsc lady that was head official at CF that year). and then they bore you to tears talking about their 'coaching'`gigs, or the minutia of the no skin rule in dh. seriously there are people out there dumb enough to hire an overweight coach whose canckles look like a pair of necrotized proscuittos' ?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkidVicious View Post
    seriously there are people out there dumb enough to hire an overweight coach whose canckles look like a pair of necrotized proscuittos' ?
    While I can appreciate your overall sentiments on the issue, people come in all shapes and sizes and there can be many reasons why. I'm not really cool with your closing statement above.

  24. #24
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    All sorts of people decide to become race officials. Some are enthusiasts or parents of athletes and others, like me, are people that used to compete but, for whatever reason (mine is an almost complete lack of time to train), are stepping back from racing but want to remain active in the sport.
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    It's true that some race officials come across as a little rules bound (even though that is their job), and may not fit the fitness criteria of racers. However, without them, races simply would not happen. They put in a lot of valuable free time to ensure that lots of other people have a good time. No need to hate on them.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    While I can appreciate your overall sentiments on the issue, people come in all shapes and sizes and there can be many reasons why. I'm not really cool with your closing statement above.

    Yes and no. Just an observation of endurance sport in general sports like running, cycling, and triathlon as I have observed personally are in general still training. The one's I have seen that much closer match that description of seem to be in the realm of team sports.

    And in general those coaches who yap on about their coaching gigs are not that great. The one's who are good don't. They are more interested in learning more.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Yes and no. Just an observation of endurance sport in general sports like running, cycling, and triathlon as I have observed personally are in general still training. The one's I have seen that much closer match that description of seem to be in the realm of team sports.
    I'm not sure I understand the relevance of your post above. Are you saying that is sometimes OK to bag on larger/heavier people, depending on whether they are involved in endurance sports or team sports? 'Cause neither is cool.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the relevance of your post above. Are you saying that is sometimes OK to bag on larger/heavier people, depending on whether they are involved in endurance sports or team sports? 'Cause neither is cool.
    Not okay to bag or whatever they call it these days.

    Just observing that the whole fat coach comment at least to me is a bit out of place in the endurance realm.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Not okay to bag or whatever they call it these days.

    Just observing that the whole fat coach comment at least to me is a bit out of place in the endurance realm.
    Wow, this is a crazy tangent.

    Back to the original post, does anyone know if ITU triathletes get fined or suspended if they do a ironman or non ITU event? Or vice versa?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post

    Back to the original post, does anyone know if ITU triathletes get fined or suspended if they do a ironman or non ITU event? Or vice versa?
    Not that I know of in regards to competing in non ITU events. Though that has more to do with the triathlon from day one being less rigid then cycling. And the ITU to date has been pretty relaxed when it comes to rules. I never had a race official telling me something about sock length or something like that.

    Now when it comes to the whole IM or ITU pro levels. Well, you need to keep in mind that they are really two completely different beasts. You pretty much focus on one or the other based on what you perform best at. With that understand that the ITU events like you see at the Olympic's or will see at Pan Ams 2015 are athlete's under 30 as well as those whose genetics are good at that. The Simon Whitfield's.

    Also the ITU pro events are totally draft legal unlike the rest of the triathlon world. So really there is no mixing because if say Simon Whitfield had decided to show up at say any of Trisports events,

    trisportcanada.com

    he would be required to follow the rules which negates drafting. As he is only allowed to do so in a WC event with other pro's. And he would have been DQ'd if he was caught.

    The IM is the domain of those who are genetically better at going for hours. And if you look at the last few years the majority of winners are over 30. Reality as demonstrated by Chris McCormack is that it requires a significant level of maturity to race those distances as patience is a huge factor.

    Just on the huge differences between the IM and the ITU WC races. It's hard to switch back and forth. Especially as the IM races do alot of damage to the body that takes time to recover from. And would be a negative to an ITU WC focused athlete.

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  32. #32
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    What other sporting organizations penalize their members for participating in non-sactioned races? Honest question.... I assume there are some others, but I don't know any.

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    I like Barry Wicks' stance regarding USAC (sorry if reposted).

    Wicks is Calling USAC's Bluff | News | CyclingDirt

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    While I can appreciate your overall sentiments on the issue, people come in all shapes and sizes and there can be many reasons why. I'm not really cool with your closing statement above.
    your right, and i'm sorry it has nothing to do with the knowledge they may (or may not) possess. they for sure won't be doing any training rides with whomever they're coaching, meh, but who knows there's enough fit fat peeps around these days...
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkidVicious View Post
    your right, and i'm sorry it has nothing to do with the knowledge they may (or may not) possess. they for sure won't be doing any training rides with whomever they're coaching, meh, but who knows there's enough fit fat peeps around these days...
    Thanks - kudos for you to circle back on this item. Success for now in at laest temporarily resolving the issue, and great that so so many people chose to speak up in all sorts of media, social media, f2f discussions, etc. such that the UCI got enough blowback to back off. This is still going to come to a head in 2014 though, and over the next few months I will be doing what I can in a "trickle up" fashion through the provincial level up to our national cycling federation to put building blocks in place to win the next round in this bout.

  36. #36
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    Knowing how these things normally unfold and judging from a few of the comments I've read, I'd be surprised if we aren't just pushing off the exact same brouhaha until 2014 but at least it would be a happy surprise!
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  37. #37
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    Is this rule and its enforcement even legal in Canada?
    I am by no means a lawyer but the Competition Act covers Sport.
    Here's a copy of the section that looks like it applies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Competition Act C-34
    Canadian Competition Act C-34
    Section 48.
    (1) Every one who conspires, combines, agrees or arranges with another person
    (a) to limit unreasonably the opportunities for any other person to participate, as a player or competitor, in professional sport or to impose unreasonable terms or conditions on
    those persons who so participate, or
    (b) to limit unreasonably the opportunity for any other person to negotiate with and, if agreement is reached, to play for the team or
    club of his choice in a professional league is guilty of an indictable offence and liable on conviction to a fine in the discretion of the court or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding
    five years or to both.

    (2) In determining whether or not an agreement or arrangement contravenes subsection (1), the court before which the contravention is alleged shall have regard to
    (a) whether the sport in relation to which the contravention is alleged is organized on an international basis and, if so, whether any limitations, terms or conditions alleged
    should, for that reason, be accepted in Canada; and
    (b) the desirability of maintaining a reasonable balance among the teams or clubs participating in the same league.

    (3) This section applies, and section 45 does not apply, to agreements and arrangements and to provisions of agreements and arrangements between or among teams and clubs engaged in professional sport as members of the same league and between or among directors, officers or employees of those teams and clubs where the agreements, arrangements and provisions relate exclusively to matters described in subsection (1) or to the granting and operation of franchises in the league, and section 45 applies and this section does not apply to all other agreements, arrangements and provisions thereof between or among those teams, clubs and persons.
    1974-75-76, c. 76, s. 15.

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  38. #38
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    I remember during the NHL strike/lock-out thingy that the NHLPA threatened to dissolve itself in a bid to go after the league on anti-trust grounds but the actual nuts and bolts of it went way over my head.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I remember during the NHL strike/lock-out thingy that the NHLPA threatened to dissolve itself in a bid to go after the league on anti-trust grounds but the actual nuts and bolts of it went way over my head.
    Paging our resident lawyer.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray.vermette View Post
    What other sporting organizations penalize their members for participating in non-sactioned races? Honest question.... I assume there are some others, but I don't know any.
    IAAF doesn't as far as I know. From what I have seen they encourage it as it as a form of exposing the various disciplines. Over 10 years ago when they first had those sports all the time channels. They used to broadcast from Europe little meets from small towns. The town would organize say a 3000m race and a Pole Vault comp. Invite a few stars and give them an appearance fee, cover room and board. But the real purpose was to raise funds to say fix the stands. And unlike the 70's there is no negative response from the IAAF.

    The ITU is pretty much following the same mentality. It's only the UCI who is archaic and shall we say being anal with this nonsense.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Thanks - kudos for you to circle back on this item. Success for now in at laest temporarily resolving the issue, and great that so so many people chose to speak up in all sorts of media, social media, f2f discussions, etc. such that the UCI got enough blowback to back off. This is still going to come to a head in 2014 though, and over the next few months I will be doing what I can in a "trickle up" fashion through the provincial level up to our national cycling federation to put building blocks in place to win the next round in this bout.
    I think everyone who is a member needs to communicate to the OCA and the CCA this. Take advantage of the technology we have and make it clear this will have a negative effect. And it will effect revenue from memberships in the future.

  42. #42
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    I am guessing an important question here is whether the activities in question in Canada can be considered a "professional sport" which is the scope of the Act provided by pubcrawl below. I understand licenses say "pro/elite" and there is sometimes some pittance of prize money paid out, but those facts notwithstanding it may be a stretch to call it a professional sport in which case the Act may not be applicable.

    It's quite possible there are other legal texts which apply instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL View Post
    Is this rule and its enforcement even legal in Canada?
    I am by no means a lawyer but the Competition Act covers Sport.
    Here's a copy of the section that looks like it applies.
    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I remember during the NHL strike/lock-out thingy that the NHLPA threatened to dissolve itself in a bid to go after the league on anti-trust grounds but the actual nuts and bolts of it went way over my head.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I understand licenses say "pro/elite" and there is sometimes some pittance of prize money paid out,
    I wish they would revise this Pro/Elite thing. It harkens back to the era of amateurism when the only way to be allowed to compete at the Olympics was as a poor starving amateur who received nothing for their efforts As it used to be called Elite. Pro's where those who made money of competition and where unable to compete at the Olympics. Basically Pro's like Greg Lee made their living this way.

  44. #44
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    This does rule effect Professional Level teams no?
    For example 3 Rox Racing would be barred from competition in non-sanctioned races. Does this section 48 not directly cover them?
    I know they have as well as other Pro level racers competed in non-sanctioned races over the past years.
    The old Liberty! Squeezer race ran unsanctioned for years and attracted the Elite/Professional level racers with cash prizes.
    The UCI rule covers Professional Cyclists as well as the weekend warrior.

    The Competition Act is quite large and I did not look through every section so other sections might apply as well based on simple business practice and not being sport specific.

    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
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  45. #45
    No. Just No.
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    The UCI rule does cover professional level teams, as well as amateurs, as you point out below. What is probably very tricky is nailing down a specific legal treatment given this mixed pro/amateur scenario. Or maybe the rule can be attacked separately for each case using the most appropriate legal approaches? I don't know. I'm not a lawyer.

    For Enduramil, where is gets confusing is the names the sport uses internally such as "pro" which may or may not always conform to the use of the word "professional" in other legal contexts.

    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL View Post
    This does rule effect Professional Level teams no?
    For example 3 Rox Racing would be barred from competition in non-sanctioned races. Does this section 48 not directly cover them?
    I know they have as well as other Pro level racers competed in non-sanctioned races over the past years.
    The old Liberty! Squeezer race ran unsanctioned for years and attracted the Elite/Professional level racers with cash prizes.
    The UCI rule covers Professional Cyclists as well as the weekend warrior.

    The Competition Act is quite large and I did not look through every section so other sections might apply as well based on simple business practice and not being sport specific.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    The UCI rule does cover professional level teams, as well as amateurs, as you point out below. What is probably very tricky is nailing down a specific legal treatment given this mixed pro/amateur scenario. Or maybe the rule can be attacked separately for each case using the most appropriate legal approaches? I don't know. I'm not a lawyer.

    For Enduramil, where is gets confusing is the names the sport uses internally such as "pro" which may or may not always conform to the use of the word "professional" in other legal contexts.

    Also what is being overlooked by the UCI is the rule that has started this fiasco was created to address issues in the road cycling part of the UCI world. The USAC and the UCI are trying to impose this now across the board. Where this is back firing is trying in mountain biking. As the way pro's and teams work in this world is completely different then in road. Mountain biking tends to see racers more individuals as pro's unlike road where a pro is part of a team. Mountain Bike pro's are more like Triathlon pro's who individually have their own sponsor's. Look at Geoff Kabush who has his own sponsor's.

  47. #47
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  48. #48
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    The application of this rule is not that different, actually. The UCI made the rule because a (road) race organiser decided it didn't want to pay the UCI sanctioning fees, so the UCI tried to strong arm them by using the teams/riders as pawns. Really, the same thing is happening in the US - the USAC somehow allowed a culture of unsanctioned events (perhaps by being too expensive), and now they're trying to force the organisers back into the sanctioned fold by using the riders as pawns.

    There have always been a few unsanctioned events in Ontario (again, I'm thinking economics is the driver), but most of them are very small. Somehow the OCA has managed to be the easier way to organise / insure events here, so there's no real need for them to enforce this rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Also what is being overlooked by the UCI is the rule that has started this fiasco was created to address issues in the road cycling part of the UCI world. The USAC and the UCI are trying to impose this now across the board. Where this is back firing is trying in mountain biking. As the way pro's and teams work in this world is completely different then in road. Mountain biking tends to see racers more individuals as pro's unlike road where a pro is part of a team. Mountain Bike pro's are more like Triathlon pro's who individually have their own sponsor's. Look at Geoff Kabush who has his own sponsor's.

  49. #49
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    I also think that it would be reasonable for there to be a process by which a Pro or Elite rider could apply for an exemption to ride a race that would benefit his or her sponsors if it was un-sanctioned.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  50. #50
    sock puppet
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    they can kiss my hairy arse with this nonsense...
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  51. #51
    sock puppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    While I can appreciate your overall sentiments on the issue, people come in all shapes and sizes and there can be many reasons why. I'm not really cool with your closing statement above.
    i am fine with it. to hell with political correctness.
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