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  1. #1
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    Bike Road rage in Toronto, SUV driver stabbed

    http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_16382.aspx

    when a man riding a bike got into a confrontation with a driver in an SUV. The cyclist, who police believe is a courier, ended up pulling out a screwdriver and allegedly stabbing the motorist in the facial area six or seven times

    I generally don't advocate violence as it has a tendency to spiral out of control, but sometimes the application of force can do alot to change people's minds.

    How many cyclists killed in Toronto this year? Man, I've had two friends collect door prizes.

    Let's say 20 years from now REAL bikes lanes, not those poseur painted lanes, get built, and people reflect back on how it came to be. Perhaps the turning point will be because so many bikers were getting messed with by cars & SUVs that they started getting violent since they weren't being treated rightly. And maybe this case could be the start.

    I'm not saying this biker was a hero, and I'm not sure we need people like him around... but if it was a ******** in an SUV who nearly hurt him, then I don't feel so bad. Especially if it captures public opinion (in either direction) and leads to more discussion.

    Karma.
    Last edited by The Rear Admiral; 11-06-2007 at 10:04 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rear Admiral
    http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_16382.aspx

    when a man riding a bike got into a confrontation with a driver in an SUV. The cyclist, who police believe is a courier, ended up pulling out a screwdriver and allegedly stabbing the motorist in the facial area six or seven times

    I generally don't advocate violence as it has a tendency to spiral out of control, but sometimes the application of force can do alot to change people's minds.

    How many cyclists killed in Toronto this year? Man, I've had two friends collect door prizes.

    Let's say 20 years from now REAL bikes lanes, not those poser painted lanes, get built, and people reflect back on how it came to be. Perhaps the turning point will be because so many bikers were getting messed with by cars & SUVs that they started getting violent since they weren't being treated rightly. And maybe this case could be the start.

    I'm not saying this biker was a hero, and I'm not sure we need people like him around... but if it was a ******** in an SUV who nearly hurt him, then I don't feel so bad. Especially if it captures public opinion (in either direction) and leads to more discussion.

    Karma.
    You're a retard if you think this guy's actions were justified.

    The fact it was an SUV and even if the driver was 100% at fault, there's no need to stab someone in the neck.

    The retalliatiion far exceeds the crime.
    Mike
    Toronto, Canada
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  3. #3
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    Though it might appear I'm justifying his actions, I'm not. It simply is what it is, and I choose to look for ways to benefit from the matter.

  4. #4
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    I used to work in T.O....and I can rightly say that MOST (not all) couriers are a-holes on the road, the weave in and out of traffic, nearly knocked me over as a pedestrian a number of times and are quite often a road menace...so if the alleged courier got into an altercation with a motorist, I'm not suprised. I was witness to quite a few choice words for said bike messengers.

    That being said, in this instance I don't think there is ANY way to justify violent actions on EITHER side. Some idiot on a bike cuts you off, or flips you the bird...dude, relax and let it slide...the guy is dumb enough to ride a bike thru a city. And guy on bike...guy in SUV almost hits you, flips you off....geez, the guy is driving a friggin SUV pal, when he SHOULD be on a bike, just let it go.....

    This incident will do NOTHING to raise the awareness for bike lanes/bike rider's rights in urban environments. If you think it might, great, more power to you, but it'll go down as another incident of road rage, that's about it...

    Tim

  5. #5
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    This has been posted in the general section area already ...
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasingstanley
    This has been posted in the general section area already ...
    correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe this thread was started first.

    anyways, i agree with the others who feel that it is unlikely that any good can come from such an incident.
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  7. #7
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    Some handy info I dug up after getting in a conversation about this elsewhere...

    basically, unless we're turning or passing, or addressing a safety issue... as bikes are 'slow' vehicles we are not entitled to use a whole lane of traffic.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    A Cyclist Is Required To Identify Himself or Herself to Police

    218 (1) A police officer who finds any person contravening this Act or any municipal by-law regulating traffic while in charge of a bicycle may require that person to stop and to provide identification of himself or herself.

    (2) Every person who is required to stop, by a police officer acting under subsection (1), shall stop and identify himself or herself to the police officer.

    (3) For the purposes of this section, giving one’s correct name and address is suffcient identification,

    (4) A police officer may arrest without warrant any person who does not comply with subsection (2)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    HTA Bicycle Violations
    Offence Section Fine
    Improper bicycle lighting 62(17) $30.00
    Improper brakes on bicycle 64(3) $90.00
    No bell (horn) - bicycle 75(5) $90.00
    Defective bell (horn) 75(5) $90.00
    Operate unsafe vehicle 84 N.S.F.
    Permit operation of unsafe vehicle 84 N.S.F.
    Fail to wear proper helmet on bicycle(under 18) 104(2.1) $60.00
    Permit person under 16 not wearing proper helmet on bicycle 104(2.2) $60.00
    Careless Driving 130 $265.00
    Disobey officer directing traffic 134(1) $90.00
    Drive on closed road 134(3) $90.00
    Disobey stop sign - fail to stop 136(1)(a) $90.00
    Fail to yield to traffic on through highway 136(1)(b) $90.00
    Fail to yield - yield sign 138(1) $90.00
    Fail to yield from driveway 139(1) $90.00
    Fail to yield to pedestrian 140(1)(a) $90.00
    Fail to yield to pedestrian approaching 140(1)(b) $90.00
    Pass stopped vehicle at crossover 140(2) $90.00
    Pass stopped streetcar at crossover 140(2) $90.00
    Cyclist - ride in crossover 140(6) $90.00
    Improper right tum 141(2) $90.00
    Improper left tum 141(6) $90.00
    Turn - not in safety 142(1) $90.00
    Change lane - not in safety 142(1) $90.00
    Fail to signal for tum 142(1) $90.00
    Fail to signal lane change 141(2) $90.00
    Fail to signal stop 141(8) $90.00
    Fail to yield to traffic 144(8) $90.00
    Amber light - fail to stop 144(15) $90.00
    Red light - fail to stop 144(18) $90.00
    Cyclist - ride in or along crosswalk 144(29) $90.00
    Bicycle - fail to tum out to right when overtaken 148(6) $90.00
    Fail to tum out to left to avoid collision with bicycle 148(6) $90.00
    Drive wrong way - one way traffic 153 $90.00
    Unsafe lane change 154(1)(a) $90.00
    Fail to stop on right for emergency vehicle 159(1)(a) $90.00
    Permit attachment to vehicle 160 $90.00
    Pass streetcar improperly 166(1) $90.00
    Attach to vehicle 178(1) $90.00
    Attach to streetcar 178(1) $90.00
    Ride 2 on bicycle 178(2) $90.00
    Fail to remain 200(1)(a) $N.S.F.
    Fail to report damage to highway property 201 $90.00
    Cyclist - fail to stop 218(2) $90.00
    Cyclist - fail to identify self 218(2) $90.00

    Regulation 630
    Bicycle on controlled acces highway 1(a) $90.00

    Metropolitan Toronto By-Law 32/92
    Bicycle - fail to exercise due care when passing 14(1) $85.00
    Bicycle - fail to ride in single file 14(2) $85.00
    Bicycle - unable to keep both hands on handlebars 15(2) $85.00
    Bicycle - park as to obstruct (16) $85.00
    Bicycle - ride on sidewalk over 61 cm (24")
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Highway Traffic Act (HTA) In Brief

    * A bicycle is a vehicle, with the same rights and responsibilities as other users of the road.

    * Riders must stop at red lights [HTA 124] and stop signs [HTA 136], and travel in the correct direction on one-way streets [HTA 153].

    * Bicycles are slow vehicles, and so must travel as far to the right as practicable [HTA 147], except when turning or passing. You can ride out from the curb as far as is needed to stay in a straight line path, typically a metre or so, but you may occupy any part of the lane if it is warranted by your safety.

    Don't compromise your safety for the convienance of the car behind you. Sometimes, it is not safe to pass a cyclist: if there is a hill (a double line) preventing you from seeing the traffic ahead, if there isn't a space in the passing lane available (due to oncomming traffic, for example), or if you're preparing to turn, for example. If it is not safe to pass, do not allow the car to pass unsafely! Until there is a safe chance to pass, ride solidly in the middle of your lane to declare your rightful spot in the law. Once there is a chance, return to the right to signal that it is now safe. Otherwise you'll be crowded off the road, passed unsafely, and possibly injured or killed by motorists acting unsafely.

    * If you are turning to the left, for example, you must use the appropriate turn lanes.

    * Riders must identify themselves if stopped by the police for breaking traffic laws. While you must provide your name and address, you do not need to show identification [HTA 218].

    Never show the officer your driver's license, instead providing some other form of identification if you must. If you volunteer your driver's license, you will receive demerit points against it (in Ontario, at least). However, there is absolutely no reason to volunteer your driver's license in Ontario if stopped on your bike.

  8. #8
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    It's hard not to be cynical about the HTA. Fer example, fail to signal a turn, lane change or stop: $90/each, ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching. Yaright, with all the potholes in this city (Toronto), I'm going to take one hand off the bars to signal? Not a chance. By the way, I also swerve for potholes without signalling. And broken glass. And taxis parked in the bike line (ie the space near the curb where slow vehicles are relegated). And peds waiting to cross the vehicle lanes. Ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching. Is it safe to assume that whoever wrote the parts of the HTA pertaining to bicycles hasn't ridden a bicycle?

    As far as road rage goes, I think it's very likely that most cyclists involved in road rage have driven a car, while most motorists involved in road rage have not ridden a bicycle.

  9. #9
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    One of the major problems is that motorists have to get it thru their head that a bike (and a rider on a bike) is more than someone out on their "toy" and that it is a viable form of transportation. Esp. in a city like T.O. which is full of self-absorbed a-holes...it's bad enough walking, I can't imagine driving/riding a bike there.....

    Heck, here in sleepy ol' Hamilton, I have to put up with bad drivers all the time. My biggest pet peeve is when I'm coming up to a red light so slow down but leave lots of room to hopefully time the light well ehough so I dont' have to stop and lose momentum....only to have cars cut me off and force me to slam on the brakes. But never have I thoguht about stabbing someone in the face. Sure I yell a-hole...might flip them the bird, but it ends at that. I go back to pedalling, and all returns to be good in the world

    Tim

  10. #10
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    this story stinks of cliche, despite containing absolutely no insight or detail whatsoever.

    poor courier cyclist wronged by heartless SUV driving monster forced to defend themselves with a common household tool...man vs machine, have vs havenot...hohum. we can do much better then this as an argument for 'the cause' (whatever that be in our own perspective).

    the prick had a screwdriver, obviously prepared. and dont give me any shite about the 'mean streets' because i've ridden them. yes, i've been mad, but not enough to try and kill someone. i do not ever feel the need to arm myself. people, try to beat a man with your fists if you absolutely must - and be prepared for the consequences (thats what we are asking of drivers, ya?) and if you need a weapon please just roll over.

    i think the only lesson (this and other) drivers learned here is that cyclists may have weapons, so if you muck up on the road - keep going. or better yet, perhaps they should carry guns...just in case.
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  11. #11
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    Based on current laws in Toronto . . .

    A pedestrian has more rights than an automobile.
    An automobile has more rights than a cyclist.
    A cyclist has the least rights.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rear Admiral
    Some handy info I dug up after getting in a conversation about this elsewhere...

    basically, unless we're turning or passing, or addressing a safety issue... as bikes are 'slow' vehicles we are not entitled to use a whole lane of traffic.

    ...

    * Bicycles are slow vehicles, and so must travel as far to the right as practicable [HTA 147], except when turning or passing. You can ride out from the curb as far as is needed to stay in a straight line path, typically a metre or so, but you may occupy any part of the lane if it is warranted by your safety.

    As a past resident of Toronto (and for a short time a courier) I know that there are plenty of times where taking up a whole lane is necessary for safety. However, since most of these times are on congested downtown streets (I never tried to take a whole lane on Eglington or Finch - that would be suicide) traffice is not moving much faster than a normal speed on a bicycle and taking up a lane doesn't inconvenience motorists too much.

    My right to safety is more important than a motorist's right to convenience. However, being right doesn't make getting hit by a car any less dangerous.
    "Newfoundland dogs are good to save children from drowning, but you must have a pond of water handy" - Josh Billings

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by notnormal
    Based on current laws in Toronto . . .

    A pedestrian has more rights than an automobile.
    An automobile has more rights than a cyclist.
    A cyclist has the least rights.
    Indeed, this is the heart of the matter. Peds and cagers each have their own designated territory. In between lies no-man's land, the domain of cyclists. Both peds and cagers consider no-man's land to be theirs for the taking whenever it suits them. Thus, cagers will hug the curb in an effort to see past the 25 cars between them and the next red light. Peds will stand off the curb, working the cell phone while waiting for a chance to scoot in between the flow of cars to cross the street. Each will squeeze a cyclist out of his/her mean strip of no-man's land without a second thought.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay.
    Indeed, this is the heart of the matter. Peds and cagers each have their own designated territory. In between lies no-man's land, the domain of cyclists. Both peds and cagers consider no-man's land to be theirs for the taking whenever it suits them. Thus, cagers will hug the curb in an effort to see past the 25 cars between them and the next red light. Peds will stand off the curb, working the cell phone while waiting for a chance to scoot in between the flow of cars to cross the street. Each will squeeze a cyclist out of his/her mean strip of no-man's land without a second thought.
    I don't know if it is still like this, but riding on Danforth Ave. was always kind fo like a video game - pedestrians would always (literally, every single day) wander aimlessly out in to the street, seemingly not looking at anything, not in a hurry to get across. I guess the cars were trained, but It always caught me by surprise.
    "Newfoundland dogs are good to save children from drowning, but you must have a pond of water handy" - Josh Billings

  15. #15
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    agree with this...

    "Based on current laws in Toronto . . .

    A pedestrian has more rights than an automobile.
    An automobile has more rights than a cyclist.
    A cyclist has the least rights."

    Same goes for most Canadian cities...
    In most cities on the planet for that matter.

    Its a god damn shame that the automobile has so many damn rights!!!!
    A damn shame. Because in reality it promotes:
    i) laziness
    ii) more laziness
    iii) consumption of precious resources.
    iv) even more laziness
    v) pollution
    vi) increases taxes as it stresses the infrastructure.

    And, I know... there are azzholes out there that come up with some dck headed phrases like - without cars there would not be any place for bikes...
    WTF!!!!!
    ... we should have a balance...
    WTF!!!!!

    Do you people bike!?!?!?!

    Anyhow, I'm kinda glad we have mass confusion on the roads at times. Disorganization brings about fear in people. Fear brings about people being careful on them roads.
    So, the more people we have wizzing in and out of traffic (i.e. couriers for example) the better!!!!

    The more motorist's hearts should race. Instilling a bit of fear factor. Thus, they'll be a bit more careful.
    Right now, the vehicle is built like a moving couch. With all the comforts at home. I'm sure most motorist's heart rate is at a resting pace... which brings about carelessness as their mind is near "sleep mode".
    A bit of confusion and mass disorganization is a good thing. Keeps people on their feet. Instead of falling asleep at the wheel.

    Damn shame the whole society is built around the automobile. Then again, it keeps the economy going... so, what should we expect. A lazy person equals a dumb person. Dumb people make the economy go around.
    Imagine if everyone biked - my lord would the economy suffer.
    i) healthier people - no need for all those drug companies.
    ii) less pollution - no need for all those drug companies.
    iii) less stress on the infrastructure - lower taxes!!!! Or perhaps more tax being stuff on things that count like education!!!! or keeping our kids fit (i.e. keeping the pools open!!!)
    iv) less deadly collisions - I've yet to encounter a deadly collision with two bikes! yet, when two cars hit... look out! when a human hits a car... deadly!!! 3000lbs of metal with horsepower behind it.... Almost like an amo!

    Lazy people make the economy go around. So, why change it.

    Its what we know though. So, automobile empire wins... most of the time.

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