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  1. #1
    humber river advocate
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    Albion Hills conservation Area Master Plan Public Advisory Committee

    I would like to announce that the Albion Hills conservation Area Master Plan Public Advisory Committee has been created and that I have a chair on it. As the TORBA Humber Watershed North Director I look forward to everyone’s comments and input about the Albion Hills trail system. Also think about what kind of trails you would like to ride (flow, xc, dj, pump track, nature, etc.) and what changes/accommodations you would like to be done. I really value your input and will champion your requests.
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  2. #2
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    good to hear this
    the place definitely needs a bit of a rework with more single track connecting the existing single track that is there as an option.
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  3. #3
    humber river advocate
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    thanks for your suggestion trail trash. it has been noted.
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  4. #4
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    Congratulations, SS. ANd thank you for walking the walk by getting involved.

    Frankly, I look forward to YOUR ideas. Change is always good and even as a leg-shaving, sausage-suited XC rider, I admit that it would be good to shake things up at Albion. All I would ask is that the existing trail system be added to, rather than changed. While many of the trails at Albion have been criticized (sometimes on this very forum) for being too tame, a lot of first time/novice riders ride there and so it is important that the trails remain accessible to all.
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  5. #5
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    i agree with Unglued about not changing whats already there.
    some of the trails have great flow and its a great place to get people into the sport.
    but there is a lot of room for improvement also.
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  6. #6
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    i couldn't agree more to have trails for all levels of riders. though until we see what the result of the forest study is i can not say for certain that trails will not be moved. for example a sensitive zone might only allow a low frequency trail or no trails at all. on the other hand an area that had no trials at all might be prime area for trail development.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 01-18-2014 at 05:44 AM.
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  7. #7
    Lemmy Rules!
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i couldn't agree more to have trails for all levels of riders. though until we see what the result of the forest study is i can not say for certain that trails will not be moved. for example a sensitive zone might only allow a low frequency trail or no trails at all. on the other hand an area that had no trials at all might be prime area for trail development.

    That's fair. What I was talking about was changing trails because they are "too easy".
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  8. #8
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    A trail that's something like this would be fun, and it would definitely broaden the spectrum of difficulty at Albion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R671...e_gdata_player

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    Tough scary stuff that may result in hospital trips. I'd like to see a trail or two that are hard enough such that the average rider will throw his hands up in despair, it should be hard enough that I can't clean them unless I'm having a good day. And a 12' high teeter-totter that puts you on top of a row of porta-potties and then goes to an option of a ladder bridge down or a drop to a ramp.

  10. #10
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    Disagree. A trail should be accessible to the majority of a trail network's demographic, not the minority
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  11. #11
    humber river advocate
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    Quote Originally Posted by regularbob View Post
    A trail that's something like this would be fun, and it would definitely broaden the spectrum of difficulty at Albion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R671...e_gdata_player
    i definitely agree that the spectrum of difficulty has to be increased.

    nice trail, i would call that generally a flow trail. i love riding trails like that. these type of trails tend to be popular, plus there are established standards that can be cited Flow Trails | International Mountain Bicycling Association
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Tough scary stuff that may result in hospital trips. I'd like to see a trail or two that are hard enough such that the average rider will throw his hands up in despair, it should be hard enough that I can't clean them unless I'm having a good day. And a 12' high teeter-totter that puts you on top of a row of porta-potties and then goes to an option of a ladder bridge down or a drop to a ramp.
    i don't recommend wooden structures because of the levels of maintenance required. we have to consider the buy in by the property staff and make it easy for them to maintain.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    That's fair. What I was talking about was changing trails because they are "too easy".
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Disagree. A trail should be accessible to the majority of a trail network's demographic, not the minority
    that is an important consideration. it is not cost effective to build a trail that no one will use. you want to spread the people out over the trail network to offer the best possible experience for everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Disagree. A trail should be accessible to the majority of a trail network's demographic, not the minority
    I can see your point, but I'd disagree. For example, the world cup DH trail at Bromont and especially 1837 at Ste. Anne are both disgustingly hard trails that maim people. How hard are they? They're bad enough that they often get overgrown with weeds since not enough riders are using them. And those trails are awesome. At both resorts the vast majority of riders will stick to the easier & more flowy trails and only a small percentage will ride the really hard stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    it is not cost effective to build a trail that no one will use. you want to spread the people out over the trail network to offer the best possible experience for everyone.
    On the other hand, build it and they will come. Kelso back in the day was known as mostly an XC place with a DH run. Then they built the Extreme trail and attracted a whole new demographic of riders. I believe Albion can do the same.

  16. #16
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    I'd like to see a line of jumps/drops like Sprocket's Drop in Palgrave. Starting very tiny and working their way up to that size, so that it's easier for the novice rider to get the courage to hit them at speed. I think you still need to build a chicken line though, or it will be "built" for you whether you like it or not.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i definitely agree that the spectrum of difficulty has to be increased.

    nice trail, i would call that generally a flow trail. i love riding trails like that. these type of trails tend to be popular, plus there are established standards that can be cited Flow Trails | International Mountain Bicycling Association
    I have seen a couple of videos of the Kalamunda circuit in Perth, Australia and the trails definitely look fun. The vidwos feature a lot of flowy XC trails with DH-like features. And it looks like the features are graduated in difficultly and that there are bail outs on each feature.

    In Ontario we seem to have an abundance of XC trail systems. We have a few DH and freestyle options but not a whole lot in between. I would say that the Don Valley and some of Durham forest and some of Hardwood Hills offer some degree of flow but by and large most of the trails are XC. So I think it would be nice to see some more trails like this introduced to other areas. I love the flowy trails in the Don and Hardwood Hills. I definitely think I would frequent any trail system that has more flow.

    Regarding "Tough scary stuff that may result in hospital trips" - I guess it can be expected that people would raise there concerns about elevating the technicality and difficultly of the trails. However everything is relative. I started mountain biking mostly in Albion Hills when I first started biking in Ontario and I found that the Don was a bit too technical for my liking and the steepness of the ridge line and the random bridges and features freaked me out a little. But as I did more riding and as I got fitter, my confidence grew quickly. Now I love bombing down the Don trails and I try to hit all of the features that I see. However, when I watch youtube videos of the DH in Whistler, I just know that those trails would freak me out. Anyway, just wanted to illustrate the point that it's all relative, and not just between riders but also within one rider's progression.

  18. #18
    humber river advocate
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    i think you touched on an important point regularbob. since i got more involved in advocacy this is something riders are asking me on a regular basis. riders want more flowly fun trails with features. the little section i put into palgrave with slowjoe is very popular.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i think you touched on an important point regularbob. since i got more involved in advocacy this is something riders are asking me on a regular basis. riders want more flowly fun trails with features. the little section i put into palgrave with slowjoe is very popular.
    My friends and I love your little section in palgrave. Thank you!!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the little section i put into palgrave with slowjoe is very popular.
    Thanks, just did a search on it and found your posting palgrave gets more fun.... Will definitely need to check it out come spring. Thanks for your efforts with improving the trails.

  21. #21
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    May I be the first to add having more consistent hot water in the showers at the Chalet ;-)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccaddy View Post
    May I be the first to add having more consistent hot water in the showers at the Chalet ;-)
    actually a better/larger/modern washroom/change facility with a power efficient flow through water heating system is a good idea.
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  23. #23
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    I have never understood why a trail with lots of features can't be built to suit all levels of riders. Teeters, skinny sections and other features over rocks do not necessarily take a lot of room and bypasses can be built without widening trails needlessly. Bypasses have to be considered at time of construction or they will develop in random ways or the features altered anyway. A skinny section with a drop of and ride off option is pretty simple to build. In the attached video I saw nice dirt kickers in the trail. You can choose to roll them of catch air off them. That sort of option is what I am looking for in a trail. Man made, well built features would be the way to go at a place like Albion I would think. This would allow the most flexible solutions to improving that trail system.
    I am thinking of a well thought out loop that would cater to this type of riding.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    I have never understood why a trail with lots of features can't be built to suit all levels of riders. Teeters, skinny sections and other features over rocks do not necessarily take a lot of room and bypasses can be built without widening trails needlessly. Bypasses have to be considered at time of construction or they will develop in random ways or the features altered anyway. A skinny section with a drop of and ride off option is pretty simple to build. In the attached video I saw nice dirt kickers in the trail. You can choose to roll them of catch air off them. That sort of option is what I am looking for in a trail. Man made, well built features would be the way to go at a place like Albion I would think. This would allow the most flexible solutions to improving that trail system.
    I am thinking of a well thought out loop that would cater to this type of riding.
    Most of the technical features at Hydrocut are "off-line" and if you're not looking for them, you might just ride right by them. It think they've done a great job of building a relatively easy trail with lots of well-integrated challenges.

    SS, I don't know if you've been to Hydrocut but I would recommend a quick visit if only as a fact-finding mission. It think it's one of the best and most thoughtful systems in Southern Ontario.
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  25. #25
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    I guess I rode right by them as I don't really remember seeing any real features except for about a foot drop off a rock before you get to the open field connecting the two trail systems. At any rate, the HC is a really good place to ride and I enjoyed my one visit where I can't say the same for Albion.
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  26. #26
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    hydro cut is a good example of what could be done to please a broad scope of skill levels.
    the place has great flow.
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  27. #27
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    I'm not really a fan of "technical features" to be honest and I'm not entirely sure why people think having features makes a trail technical or tough. A tight, steep off-camber switchback for instance will dump more riders on their faces than any number of bridges, skinnies, teeters, or jumps. I was on the TORBA Don social ride last summer and nearly everyone made it over all the bridges & other obstacles, but the tight switchbacks near Sunnybrook took out most of the group. It goes to show that features aren't needed to make a trail hard or technical.

    My thoughts are to use the natural terrain to make the trail challenging. Seek out steep slopes, ledges, and other natural obstacles and route the trail on & around them to maximize the difficulty. Instead of putting wide benchcuts or berms on switchbacks, keep them narrow & off-camber. Make the trail go diagonally over a ledge instead of at a right angle. Stuff like that to keep riders honest.

  28. #28
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    it does have great flow. It was a very fun place to ride, though I still would like to see some man made features. I saw plenty of places to work features into the trails without being obtrusive. Puslinch would be a nightmare to develop in this way and would never recommend doing anything for example.

    Aerious- It is not about making the trail necessarily harder or slowing fast riders. It is about having fun and enjoying a different aspect of the ride for me. I don't necessarily want a skinny 9 ft up in the air. Apart from the danger factor, it is just as hard to ride a foot off the ground. I agree that natural technical features such as switchbacks, rocks and roots are awesome and challenging, there just aren't that many of them on a lot of trails. Buckwallow would be my best example of that type of challenging terrain. You hardly need to throw in any man made stuff there.
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  29. #29
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    As an Albion 'regular' I wish I had more of a detailed reply, but all I can think of is the obvious - more trails of all difficulty levels, a bit of rebuilding on sections like Tea Cup, more features on new and existing trails to keep the die hards coming back, maybe a pump track and or skills area.

    SS you've come off as critical of the old school trails there in the past, if the available terrain allows, this would be a great place to showcase you vision of flow!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_o View Post
    As an Albion 'regular' I wish I had more of a detailed reply, but all I can think of is the obvious - more trails of all difficulty levels, a bit of rebuilding on sections like Tea Cup, more features on new and existing trails to keep the die hards coming back, maybe a pump track and or skills area.

    SS you've come off as critical of the old school trails there in the past, if the available terrain allows, this would be a great place to showcase you vision of flow!

    i think it is important to say it is not just my vision, but the vision of the community/stakeholders/trca. it is clear from everyone's reply that we have to broaden the spectrum of riding and increase the progression. the terrain in albion will allow this. there are now excepted standards to build these types of trails. there are professional trail builders with experience building these type of trails all over north america. there are successful trail networks that use this approach the world over.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I'm not really a fan of "technical features" to be honest and I'm not entirely sure why people think having features makes a trail technical or tough. A tight, steep off-camber switchback for instance will dump more riders on their faces than any number of bridges, skinnies, teeters, or jumps. I was on the TORBA Don social ride last summer and nearly everyone made it over all the bridges & other obstacles, but the tight switchbacks near Sunnybrook took out most of the group. It goes to show that features aren't needed to make a trail hard or technical.

    My thoughts are to use the natural terrain to make the trail challenging. Seek out steep slopes, ledges, and other natural obstacles and route the trail on & around them to maximize the difficulty. Instead of putting wide benchcuts or berms on switchbacks, keep them narrow & off-camber. Make the trail go diagonally over a ledge instead of at a right angle. Stuff like that to keep riders honest.


    i think we could start a whole new thread on what is a technical feature and what isn't.
    i've always considered tight switchbacks, off camber logs and roots, natural stone features all as being technical riding.
    when you ride at 3 stage and kolapore, they are known for there technical riding trails which are all natural features.
    so when some of us refer to technical features we don't mean all man made wooden skinnies,teeter totters etc.
    i think most of us would prefer natural features as well as they will stand up well over time and blend in well with the natural landscape.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    i think we could start a whole new thread on what is a technical feature and what isn't.
    i've always considered tight switchbacks, off camber logs and roots, natural stone features all as being technical riding.
    when you ride at 3 stage and kolapore, they are known for there technical riding trails which are all natural features.
    so when some of us refer to technical features we don't mean all man made wooden skinnies,teeter totters etc.
    i think most of us would prefer natural features as well as they will stand up well over time and blend in well with the natural landscape.
    That's exactly what I mean when I say "technical". Basically anything beyond "just riding along" is by its nature technical. Heck, even a berm can be considered technical as it requires "technique" to get the most from it.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Kelso back in the day was known as mostly an XC place with a DH run. Then they built the Extreme trail and attracted a whole new demographic of riders.
    And then many of those riders decided to dumb it down. I've ridden Xtreem on my Ventana tandem with a trail-a-bike.

    Many rocks got moved and there are ride-arounds for almost everything.

    One issue is singage and placement of the trail in the network. I don't think it is clear enough to most people new to Kelso that it is not a 'family' trail. It's also one of the most easily accessed from the upper parking lot, so a lot of those people find it by mistake.

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  34. #34
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    Regardless of what new trails/feature you add, make sure you have ride-around options for any highly technical features (rocks, bridges, jumps, drops, crazy descents, etc). That way anyone can go on the trail and opt out of any features that are too risky for them.

    This is the approach they seem to take in race courses and I like it that way. The slight penalty that comes with riding around a technical section, is the risk-reward we all need to deal with. But at least we don't have to risk injury for a Sport level race.
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    i mention the same thing above. if bypass is not designed in, it will end up being built ad hoc and not particularly in a desirable spot.
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  36. #36
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    Albion Hills conservation Area Master Plan Public Advisory Committee

    Sometimes I like to do an easy cruise on a flowy trail,
    sometimes I like to be pushed beyond my limits on a technical trail ( whether natural or man made )
    Why can't a trail system have both ??
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  37. #37
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    absolutely bernie, variety makes for the best experience and is what draws people back.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crash&bern View Post
    Sometimes I like to do an easy cruise on a flowy trail,
    sometimes I like to be pushed beyond my limits on a technical trail ( whether natural or man made )
    Why can't a trail system have both ??
    Everybody happy.


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  38. #38
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    Albion Hills Conservation Area- Master Plan is now posted with survey.

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/albionhills

    Albion Hills Master Plan : TRCA
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  39. #39
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    Albion Hills conservation Area Master Plan Public Advisory Committee

    "Survey says!" (done!)

  41. #41
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    Done!
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  42. #42
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    Survey done

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    Done!
    It's going to be a busy year for us mountain bikers regarding access issues! SS please post any public meeting dates and let us know if you need us there for support. I think you likely know my thoughts on the trails at Albion (no more pink paint on rocks and roots!). Glad to hear that you're on the committee, good work!
    I'll get it up on team van go's site as well.
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    survey done
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  45. #45
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    Done!

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    Done as well. I too would like to help if possible. It is a bit of a trek, but if an important meeting needs some bodies, I would give it my best to attend.
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  47. #47
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    will do heckler, i will keep everyone posted and thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekler View Post
    Done!
    It's going to be a busy year for us mountain bikers regarding access issues! SS please post any public meeting dates and let us know if you need us there for support. I think you likely know my thoughts on the trails at Albion (no more pink paint on rocks and roots!). Glad to hear that you're on the committee, good work!
    I'll get it up on team van go's site as well.
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  48. #48
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    I like when trails have options - forks in the trail where if you keep straight it's the same difficulty, and if you want to kick it up you take the alternate trail and then rejoin the main one. I haven't been to Albion for a while (just getting back into Mtb) but these may already exist. And of course signage so you know what you're getting into.

    Thanks for reaching out!

  49. #49
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    Signage is already pretty good, and the new maps are excellent. Maybe more 'descriptive' signs, like at Buckwallow or Hydrocut.

    Survey complete, thanks for posting it.

  50. #50
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    Survey Completed!
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