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  1. #1
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    Why would a fit rider want to e-MTB?

    Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:

    1) Bikepacking with a big load.
    2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
    3) Need to travel a long distance for some reason.

    Any others?

  2. #2
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    I'm not. "fit rider" and don't have one but I see 2 reasons that they would be great. For me it would be e-fat bike.

    Your first option except the bike packing part. Carrying trail maintenance gear is faster by bike but totally sucks when your trails have steep punchy stuff. Having a motor to help on work days would be amazing. But for bike packing it doesn't make much sense. How are you going to charge it? It becomes way worse than no motor trying to pedal one once the battery dies.

    You option 2 seems to be the biggest thing. It's a "new toy" just like buying a different discipline of bike and using it for such. New type of fun, new smiles.

    3rd one again you run into battery range and trying to move the thing once dead. Far better than to just do it under your own power unless the going out is a lot of up meaning the trip back is a lot of down.

    I think majority is the second option though, just something different.

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  3. #3
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    Race course setting/clearing.
    Trail work.

  4. #4
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    Why would a fit rider want to-

    Skydive
    Paddle the Grand Canyon
    Ride lift assisted downhill
    Drive a few laps on the Nurburgring Ring
    etc.

    Lots of people are pretty diverse in their recreational pursuits and a mountain bike is just one toy among many so it's not surprising that an e-bike might be another one of them. One common denominator seems to be the fun factor, and I'm sure electric bikes deliver there.

    One reason I'm not interested in them is because the trails I really like riding now don't permit electric bikes and I hope they never do. Another is that they're really expensive and require a lot more maintenance than a bicycle, which isn't my thing.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:

    1) Bikepacking with a big load.
    2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
    3) Need to travel a long distance for some reason.

    Any others?
    Bike packing? Yes, I want a heavier bike? Not. And charge the battery? Just plug it into a tree or cactus?
    Change of pace? Thats why I GO bikepacking.
    I can go long distances on my bike, no battery required. Coffee and bacon make great fuel. Dried salami too. So go long distances, what does one do when the battery runs out? Carry yet another heavy battery? How about a generator on a trailer to to charge the batteries? My Karate Monkey weighed 70 pounds this summer, can't imagine needing more weight, at least for a summer tour. YRMV.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
    I thought eBikes were no faster than normal mountain bikes?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I thought eBikes were no faster than normal mountain bikes?
    Meant different experience; didn't say anything about speed. Sorry if I was obtuse.

  8. #8
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    Didn't open this to argue, just mention some of the reasons that I might use e-power and see what might motivate others. Also, riders use solar power to recharge batteries and it's unlikely that I would exhaust my battery since I never have and know the consumption. I'd have a small (3 lb) back-up if my wife and I decide to try this; by the way, we hike and backpack too. Of course, there's possible mechanical malfunction, but I haven't experienced that in two years of riding on and off road.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Of course, there's possible mechanical malfunction, but I haven't experienced that in two years of riding on and off road.
    Well, it's gona happen.

  10. #10
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    Meh, it's easy to find justification for new toys or to be "that guy". I'm a reasonably fit rider and wouldn't have one.
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  11. #11
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    stop trying to make it happen

    it's not gonna happen

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Didn't open this to argue, just mention some of the reasons that I might use e-power and see what might motivate others. Also, riders use solar power to recharge batteries and it's unlikely that I would exhaust my battery since I never have and know the consumption. I'd have a small (3 lb) back-up if my wife and I decide to try this; by the way, we hike and backpack too. Of course, there's possible mechanical malfunction, but I haven't experienced that in two years of riding on and off road.
    Bikepacking for 2 days or two weeks? One of the reasons I go bikepacking is to unplug. How big is that solar array? Weight? I know people who charge stuff like lights and a phone, not large stuff. No arguing in the e bikes section, ever. Uggg. Do you even bikepack? Or just guessing at stuff?

  13. #13
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    To go faster and/or farther would be the top reasons I could see. More DH laps if you were an enduro racer training for instance. Faster is always fun.

    I could see it being useful for a bushwacking efat bike. Not that there are many places that would be happy to see people riding off trail.

    Besides the weight, for bikepacking you'd also be eating up valuable storage space with batteries and controller. I just don't see it as an attractive option for a fit rider.

  14. #14
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    Harry, that was pretty much my point (totally lost on the cretins); my only reasons (and I'm not even fit anymore although I ride or hike 4 or 5 times a week) would be the need for extra power, for whatever reason to travel further or as something different once in a while.

  15. #15
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    Well I haven't heard of anyone at any experience level go ride singletrack on an ebike, come back and say "well, that sucked." If a lot did, I highly doubt almost every manufacturer would be producing one.
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  16. #16
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    I'm an avid trail rider with a 43 mile round trip commute. My eBike lets me put 150+ miles a week commuting and still have the energy left for singletrack shredding.

    Regular road bike with panniers means 1h40m one way while eBike cuts it down to 0h58m

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    stop trying to make it happen

    it's not gonna happen
    For what value of ''it"?

    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Trail work.
    That would be my reason. Unlikely at current prices though.

    Quote Originally Posted by kermit_xc View Post
    I'm an avid trail rider with a 43 mile round trip commute. My eBike lets me put 150+ miles a week commuting and still have the energy left for singletrack shredding.

    Regular road bike with panniers means 1h40m one way while eBike cuts it down to 0h58m
    Best reason I've seen yet.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit_xc View Post
    I'm an avid trail rider with a 43 mile round trip commute. My eBike lets me put 150+ miles a week commuting and still have the energy left for singletrack shredding.

    Regular road bike with panniers means 1h40m one way while eBike cuts it down to 0h58m
    I think this is fantastic use of an e-motorbike. Not only are you not burning gas and sparing your vehicle some wear and tear, you're getting a moderate workout.

    I'm guessing you could make the drive in 10-15 minutes? As one who puts more miles on his bicycles and legs than on his car each year, it's refreshing to encounter another throwback who doesn't mind sacrificing time for fitness and air quality.

    Seriously, I salute you.

  19. #19
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    To address OP, trail building and maintenance are two great uses for e-motorbikes. Those guys sacrifice a lot of time and effort for the greater good of anyone who enjoys our trail systems, and much of the equipment they must haul around is very heavy.

    However, generally speaking, I am not a fan of e-motorbikes on trails designated as non-motorized. Despite what certain state legislatures or city ordinances proclaim, a motor is a motor. Anyone who would argue that 350W (or, god, 750W!) isn't much power needs to hop on a stationary with a powermeter and see how long he/she can maintain that output.

    I understand the desire to be on the trails, but I don't understand the wish for motorized assistance, and I probably never will. It's weird to say, but the work is half the fun.

    Realize these points have been covered ad nauseum within this subforum, so my apologies for being redundant. I don't hate anyone for riding an e-motorbike on singletrack trail, but I do feel at some point you probably decided you didn't want to put in the work anymore, and that makes me a little sad.

  20. #20
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    ^Why post in an "emotorbike forum?" I'm sure the ebike riders on the ebike forum value your opinion.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Well I haven't heard of anyone at any experience level go ride singletrack on an ebike, come back and say "well, that sucked." If a lot did, I highly doubt almost every manufacturer would be producing one.
    My ride sucked. Dirt road, way fast, too fast almost. For me and my riding here in MA, lots of ledges, logs, tech up and downs too. Some trials type moves as well. Not on all the trails, but many. Lofting the front wheel? Way too much work and awkward to say the least. Ruined the flow. And the fun. So there's that. YRMV.

  22. #22
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    Why are you riding in MA? I thought they are shunned and banned there?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Why are you riding in MA? I thought they are shunned and banned there?
    Dirt ROAD, he said.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Why are you riding in MA? I thought they are shunned and banned there?
    ^^^^ Needs some clarity here. I was at an accessibility event, for those with some physical disabilities. In part sponsored by the state park agency. So there were some electric off road wheel chairs, some e bikes, e trikes and some hand cranks type mobility devices. Actually a pretty cool event to get some folks out in the woods who would not have an opportunity otherwise.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    ^Why post in an "emotorbike forum?" I'm sure the ebike riders on the ebike forum value your opinion.
    Partly because mtbr.com is a forum for mountain bikers, and partly because I believe at least a portion of my response addressed the OP's question.

    I'm not aware that participation in this subforum requires one to be a proponent of e-motorbikes. If that's the case, I will delete or edit my comments accordingly, but until then, maybe leave moderating to the moderators?

    And whether you value my input or not is of no consequence to me. That's the beauty of forums--we're not all going to share the same interests or viewpoints.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdparrish View Post
    I'm not aware that participation in this subforum requires one to be a proponent of e-motorbikes. If that's the case, I will delete or edit my comments accordingly, but until then, maybe leave moderating to the moderators?
    Participation in this subforum does not require one to be a proponent of e-motorbikes.
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  27. #27
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    They probably wouldn't. It really is cheating. I'm a big guy and find some climbs nearly insufferable. But on an e-bike it's a breeze. I was able to easily 'pedal' along at over 16 mph on the climbs and pass everyone else on the trail. Normally I'd struggle to keep a 4.7 mph pace. I don't find he weight to be that bad so it didn't effect the descending that much. If there were numerous drops then I could possibly see it being a bit of a hindrance.

    I was able to knock out 3 loops in the time it would have taken me to complete one on a normal mtb. And I still had energy to spare. In fact it was a bit ungratifying. I like riding and feeling some exhaustion. I imagine a fit rider would be even more perturbed as they wouldn't feel like they got a good workout in. I do like ebikes but I kinda feel they should regulate the power output more and reduce the speed at which they operate. Being able to hit 25 mph on a climb is ridiculous and will certainly draw the ire of others.

  28. #28
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    Good response, and that was my reasoning. I MIGHT use a e-bike for bikepacking, but never have. My wife and I have explored some sites on MTB's (round trip obviously since we didn't stay overnight). We could try it this summer. I MIGHT need to travel further than necessary on a given ride, but that has not occurred, although we've been on the trail all day on MTB's. The only reason that I ride an e-MTB is for a different experience when bored with "normal" rides. Obviously most here don't agree which is fine since I'm way past trying to please anyone.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    The only reason that I ride an e-MTB is for a different experience when bored with "normal" rides.
    Do you ride your e-bike on the same trails that you mountain bike on? As mentioned they're not allowed most places I ride which sort of eliminates them as an option for trail riding. Plenty of atv trails here but I guess I'd rather ride a bike on those too.
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  30. #30
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    JB, good to hear from you & hope the weather is reasonable up yonder. We had the mid-80's or so today. Usually, I ride the e-bike on errands or to supplement MTB, that is, now that the newness has waned a little, I ride MTB as much as I would and take an extra e-ride every so often.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:

    1) Bikepacking with a big load.
    2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
    3) Need to travel a long distance for some reason.

    Any others?
    Because they are f-ing FUN!!!!!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    Being able to hit 25 mph on a climb is ridiculous and will certainly draw the ire of others.
    I've been on an ebike for 2 months now. I'm reasonably bike fit, have above average skills and have been mountain biking for 15 years... I want to know what ebikes you're riding to achieve 25 mph on any sort of reasonable climb.

    I know here in Oz, our ebikes are limited in output and speed... but I don't get anywhere near that speed on a climb. My experience has shown that I actually don't ride much faster on the ebike than I used to on my previous bikes... I can just now do the climbs without being in pain.

    It's not always about the speed.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by russmu66 View Post
    I've been on an ebike for 2 months now. I'm reasonably bike fit, have above average skills and have been mountain biking for 15 years... I want to know what ebikes you're riding to achieve 25 mph on any sort of reasonable climb.

    I know here in Oz, our ebikes are limited in output and speed... but I don't get anywhere near that speed on a climb. My experience has shown that I actually don't ride much faster on the ebike than I used to on my previous bikes... I can just now do the climbs without being in pain.

    It's not always about the speed.
    With an unrestricted 750W bike and no regard for battery life, 25mph would be doable on a very smooth/not too steep climb, but agreed, that was ridiculous hyperbole.

    Old farts who want to be in less pain and slow/timid SOs (which is almost the entire market right now) are never going to be an issue for trail access. It's the next generation of riders who will want to go faster rather than just take it easy that are the problem.

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdparrish View Post
    Partly because mtbr.com is a forum for mountain bikers, and partly because I believe at least a portion of my response addressed the OP's question.

    I'm not aware that participation in this subforum requires one to be a proponent of e-motorbikes. If that's the case, I will delete or edit my comments accordingly, but until then, maybe leave moderating to the moderators?

    And whether you value my input or not is of no consequence to me. That's the beauty of forums--we're not all going to share the same interests or viewpoints.
    Everybody that doesn't own one always has an opinion, here's mine - if I didn't like Ebikes, why would I post in an ebike forum? MOST ebike riders are CURRENT or past mtbrs. NON EBIKE owners, have the mindset that we are very green and don't understand the bike scene. The ebike is new, not the riders.
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  35. #35
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    I don't own a nuclear powered excavator, but I'm pretty sure I don't want to share trails with any.

    Just saying.

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  36. #36
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    Not one thing wrong with legally riding an ebike on legal trails. Who are we to judge people and what they do for enjoyment. ANY ride is better than no ride.
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  37. #37
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    Oh, for sure. I'd ride one in a hot second on a lot of motorized trails that are too chewed up or steep to be fun on a normal mountain bike.

    -Walt

  38. #38
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    I currently don't own an emtb, but do own 4 Turbo road bikes and like the emtb, they are super fun, but doesn't mean that I stop riding normal bikes. As for my next "motorbike" Ducati desert sled. To answer the OP question, I would just simply get one for fun. All my bikes are fun, hell, if I'm not getting paid to ride, is there any other reason?
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Everybody that doesn't own one always has an opinion, here's mine - if I didn't like Ebikes, why would I post in an ebike forum?
    This isn't unique to the e-bike forum. If you go into the 27.5 forum, there are still(!) arguments about why anyone would ride such a contraption. The 26er forum has people telling others to 'get with the times'. The drivetrain forum has people wondering why anyone would ride a 2x since they, specifically, do not. It's the internet man. Arguing about everything under the sun is what we do.

  40. #40
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    That's for sure, human nature I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by russmu66 View Post
    I've been on an ebike for 2 months now. I'm reasonably bike fit, have above average skills and have been mountain biking for 15 years... I want to know what ebikes you're riding to achieve 25 mph on any sort of reasonable climb.

    I know here in Oz, our ebikes are limited in output and speed... but I don't get anywhere near that speed on a climb. My experience has shown that I actually don't ride much faster on the ebike than I used to on my previous bikes... I can just now do the climbs without being in pain.

    It's not always about the speed.


    25mph isn't likely to be realistic on anything but a gradual climb. Even 15mph though seems like the person is passing at a much higher speed if it's a decent enough ascent. Even if plugging along at 6 mph and some passes at 13mph it seems like they are going quite a bit faster that just double your rate.

    One thing I've noticed out here though is many people will mod their bikes from the get go. In fact the LBS will often do it and uses it as a selling point.
    Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

  42. #42
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    25mph is non achieveable on ANY bike climbing singletrack.
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    I'm not talking about an 8000w contraption. A Levo, no way.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    25mph is non achieveable on ANY bike climbing singletrack.


    20 mph? 18? When a human powered MTB may be grinding along at 6 mph.The disparity in speeds is telling and when pointed out to land managers, eye opening.
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  45. #45
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    I agree, they may want to purchase one themselves and get on with more riding and less farting around at 6 mph.
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    Riding or just using a motor with a little pedaling?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I agree, they may want to purchase one themselves and get on with more riding and less farting around at 6 mph.


    Rather, they may just simply prohibit motor assisted bikes to forego future conflicts. Path of least resistance and posts like yours are making it even less so.
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  48. #48
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    Yes, as a landowner they have that right. So let's let them decide what to allow on their land rather than what "you" feel would be best. I allow them on my land, along with mtbs and snowmobiles and motorbikes. Why? because I'm not threatened over a small number of Ebikes, bigger fish to fry. Also, if I lived and rode somewhere where things are that "delicate" I'd move on, not worth it. I'm trying to think of the last disrespectful rider I've encountered on the trail and it wasn't an Ebiker, it was a Strava freak going gangbusters and the sad part is they are EVERYWHERE unlike Ebikers.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I'm trying to think of the last disrespectful rider I've encountered on the trail and it wasn't an Ebiker, it was a Strava freak going gangbusters and the sad part is they are EVERYWHERE unlike Ebikers.
    Yet. If you think the strava freaks are bad now just wait until they have an extra 700 watts or so on tap.
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  50. #50
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    True, but they won't be going downhill any faster, most are slower downhill on an emtb due to the hefty handling. I don't buy the uphill speedster argument.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Riding or just using a motor with a little pedaling?
    Make no mistake, you can go out and return completely hammered from a full day on an emtb. You need awesome technical skills and a strong upper body.
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I don't buy the uphill speedster argument.
    And I don't buy the "they're slower downhill" argument either.

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  53. #53
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    Do you have any experience riding like a Levo for a day on some technical downhills or are we basing our facts off hearsay or video's?
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Do you have any experience riding like a Levo for a day on some technical downhills or are we basing our facts off hearsay or video's?
    No, that's why I watched the review on the Levo. The guy did seem to be having a blast.

    Funny about all the arguments, I have absolutely no problem with them other than the industry's sneaky (IMO) back-door approach to trail access. Let them stand on their own merits, or lack thereof instead of changing the definition of a bicycle to accommodate them.

    Where I live there should be no conflict or need to change existing laws because there are endless atv/jeep tracks that are challenging and fun and they are already legal to ride there.
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  55. #55
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    I also agree that the industry is being sneaky. They should stand on their own merits. I personally am much faster downhill on my Niner, than I was on my Levo. Everywhere else, forget it.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Everybody that doesn't own one always has an opinion, here's mine - if I didn't like Ebikes, why would I post in an ebike forum? MOST ebike riders are CURRENT or past mtbrs. NON EBIKE owners, have the mindset that we are very green and don't understand the bike scene. The ebike is new, not the riders.
    Why do you care whether I post here? OP asked a question and I gave my input. I don't own a 29er, and I'm not a bona fide weight weenie (certainly not with my current tires!), but I've posted in those subforums. Is it a matter of time before you play fake thread police there, too?

    My comments haven't implied anything about e-motorcycle owners/riders being new to trails. You've completely made that up, apparently to suit an agenda.

    If anything, my statements have suggested the opposite--it seems most e-motorcycle owners got to a point where they didn't want to put in the work anymore and traded in their bicycles for motors, and that saddens me because the work, pain, sweat, weight loss, gradually improving over time, mastering several thousand vertical feet in one climb, and knowing you did it all yourself, is half the fun.

  57. #57
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    ^idc where you post. I'm stating most ebike owners also own normal bikes. You keep stating or implying that we all trade in our bikes for Ebikes, don't sweat, lose weight etc. Your a rider that's never ridden one, but is now an expert on the ebike rider and their habits, funny and very sad.
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    My comment about trading bicycles for motors stems from the fact that all the e-motorcycle riders I know here where I live were hard-core mountain bikers who did just that.

    And I have ridden an e-motorcycle, so you're also wrong about that.

    I don't hate anyone, least of all someone who pedals around on an e-motorcycle. I just don't think they belong on non-motorized singletrack ... cuz, you know, they have motors. /shrug

  59. #59
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    Whatever works for you. If they are legal, there legal. WTF?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Whatever works for you. If they are legal, there legal. WTF?
    Like all of your other responses quoting me, this has nothing to do with what I've stated.

  61. #61
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    Do you still ride with your hardcore mtbrs that turned solely ebikers? Or are you a bike snob? The OP asked "Why would a fit rider want to ride a ebike?" They don't belong on non- motorized trails is not an answer, but whatever. The reason why fit hardcore riders ride Ebikes is because it's FUN and a new twist on their riding. If they are truly hardcore mtbrs, they are not going to abondon their traditional bikes. I'm sure your a nice guy and I bet I could take you out for a day on a emtb and you'd have fun. Keep in mind, it's never "all" people do this or "all" ebikers ride like jackasses. IF YOU ARE ON A LEGAL TRAIL AND A FIT RIDER RIPPING A EBIKE, BY ALL MEANS RIP IT! IM NOT GOING TO JUDGE.
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    Of all the e bikes that I have come across out riding and its only been a few, I have never seen one ridden like we see in the videos . I go slower on the down hills and stop for hikers more often now , with the e bike you don't need to carry speed on the DH s like a reg mt bike . Its easy to stop then get back up to speed agane I spend more time spotting deer n turtles on the trail its a relaxing ride for me .

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    JUST MY OPINION --- For those who answered 'because it's fun", guess that might be the best answer. I encountered a very fit rider at a local park yesterday (normally he rides a Pivot MTB) who was on an e-Giant. He said that his biggest problem was removing the smile from his face after riding the PAS bike. Probably this will incite some members and maybe even elicit a few snarky comments, but this is one example.

  64. #64
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    ^yes
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    I am a fit rider and I do think of them as e-motorbikes. I don't think they belong on non motorized trails like many here do.
    But why would a fit rider want one? What about when you are too old and beat up to rip off the local beginner loop. Will our minds change then?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlee View Post
    I am a fit rider and I do think of them as e-motorbikes. I don't think they belong on non motorized trails like many here do.
    But why would a fit rider want one? What about when you are too old and beat up to rip off the local beginner loop. Will our minds change then?
    I think then, by definition, you would no longer be a "fit rider".

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  67. #67
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    This has some good points in it and touches on "fitness" as well:

    Old mountain bikers never die, they just add watts and amps to keep the thrill alive!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Do you still ride with your hardcore mtbrs that turned solely ebikers? Or are you a bike snob? The OP asked "Why would a fit rider want to ride a ebike?" They don't belong on non- motorized trails is not an answer, but whatever. The reason why fit hardcore riders ride Ebikes is because it's FUN and a new twist on their riding. If they are truly hardcore mtbrs, they are not going to abondon their traditional bikes. I'm sure your a nice guy and I bet I could take you out for a day on a emtb and you'd have fun. Keep in mind, it's never "all" people do this or "all" ebikers ride like jackasses. IF YOU ARE ON A LEGAL TRAIL AND A FIT RIDER RIPPING A EBIKE, BY ALL MEANS RIP IT! IM NOT GOING TO JUDGE.
    He probably doesn't ride with e-bikers as he won't be able to keep up.

    And if they are true hardcore mtbers they won't abandon traditional bikes? What kinda nonsense is that? I know plenty who've gone e-bike and never looked back. It's more fun for them and that's why they ride. It still provides a workout but makes the strenuous unpleasant portion more enjoyable.

    They basically justify or rationalize it as technological progress. They always ask why people don't ride 26 wheels anymore. Or why people ride full suspension bikes. Why are people on wide ratio cassettes? We should ride fully rigid single speeds. But we don't we want to be efficient and faster. For them ebikes are just a natural progression.


    I've also seen a number of e-bikers ride like in the video above. Most have the courteous to slow down when they approach slower "traffic". It really depends on the trails though. Flowy trails just lend themselves to speed. I gravitate more towards techy trails with a lot of drops and rock gardens. Not as many e-bikers there since they can't carry much speed and the weight can make handling more difficult.

    I'm in California now and so ebikers can ride anywhere a regular mtber can. Do I like that? Not really. It does feel like they are cheating. But I also remember when I was just a hiker and thought mtbers shouldn't be on trails since they were also cheating with their mechanical apparatuses. But maybe I just have an inferiority complex and don't like someone passing me by at double my rate of speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiptastic View Post
    This has some good points in it and touches on "fitness" as well:

    It's interesting that one of the criticisms in this video is lack of speed on downhill or other fast sections of trail, though of course this is with Euro speed restrictions which I think are 5 mph (3 mph) less than in the US. So while most of the criticism here on mtbr relates to the motors and the power they're providing, to these bikeradar guys, the problem is that they're too slow!

  70. #70
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    E bikes on your trail can be a positive thing a e bike has no impact on a reg mt bikers enjoyment of the trail none what so ever , land mangers have no ideal if e bikes are using a trail and seem to have little concern about them . E bikers are better at sharing a trail with hikers n horse's and other riders we tend to be a more older and more respectful rider.

  71. #71
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    I was in Dales, a large bike shop in Glasgow, yesterday. Kinda depressing, they now have a big eBike display right in front of the entrance. Counted, nearly twenty different bikes. You young guy who served me was strangely enthusiastic about them but a lot of his arguments seemed to ring a little hollow to me, a bit like rider95's post above.

    He went further than saying that had no impact on other trail users, he reckoned they were a positive thing as it got more people on the trails. But the popular trail centres in Scotland are already packed full in the summer months. It's almost a waste of time going because you know you're going to get log-jammed all day.

    He also said that he didn't think they damaged the trails, but admitted doing 15+mps going up hill! How does that work? And how is that not going to create conflict with people peddling at half your speed?

    I have idea why a bike shop would want to push these really expensive bikes that that make big profits on.

  72. #72
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    Here's the deal; compared with walking, a regular bicycle is something like 8X more efficient on level ground (1/8th the exercise). Add an electric motor and nearly the only energy consumed is the effort of keeping balance. Probably an unhealthy (low) level of activity fitness-wise.

    But...

    Add in hills, cargo and/or the need for speed and an e-bike (or electric motorcycle) can be every bit the workout a pedal-only bicycle can be. The downside is that this workout is going be happening at a much greater speed on e-bikes than on regular bikes.

    Another thread discussing the merit of the adrenaline rush relative to e-bikes and regular bikes should be started.

    Think you can't get a rush on an e-bike...?
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  73. #73
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    In your climbing way, there may be a few slopes that are too steep that you are not able to climb.
    Even you make it, it will consume most of your power and you may not be able to have good condition in the following climbing.
    E-bike enables you to conquer more hills with steep slopes, go different routes and see different scenery.
    And you will be able to travel much longer distance.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    But the popular trail centres in Scotland are already packed full in the summer months. It's almost a waste of time going because you know you're going to get log-jammed all day.
    Why aren't there more trails? Scotland would seem to have a lot of potential there.

    Are all the trails in "trail centers" or just the downhill ones.
    Who owns & operates the trail centers?

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Why aren't there more trails?
    Scotland has a heck of a lot of trails. Most are walking routes, disused railways and roads, farm tracks, forest tracks and other countryside trails that offer good surfaces to cycle on even in remote places. These trails need a bit of homework and commitment.

    There is also a growing population of trail-centres. The most famous of these is Glentress in the borders, we go there a lot. It has everything from green to black trails, free-ride area, it's brilliant to be honest. The problem is that over the last few years the popularity of these places has sky-rocketed and during the summer months they are too busy. Families and school trips clog the trails up with kids that cannot ride them. It's hopeless.

    Most trail centres are owned by the local councils or the forestry commission. Some are very well maintained with good facilities, others are overgrown with bomb-craters on the trails. The type of trail varies a lot too. Some cover everything, some are just down-hill and some are so tame and poorly designed they're not worth going to.

    So it doesn't matter what kind of riding you want to do, Scotland has it. I like the trail centres but riding in the countryside is the best I think. Some of the scenery is stunning and you never know what the trail is going to throw at you. You can have miles of old farm track and then it just...stops. And you've got to figure out how you are going to get to where you want to be without a path. It changes all the time, you wouldn't beleive how quickly a path can disappear. When you hit a deep bog it's just the worst! :0(

    If you like cycling, Scotland is a great place to be. Apart from the rain. And the midges...

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiptastic View Post
    This has some good points in it and touches on "fitness" as well:

    Great video. While I don't mind sharing the trails with Pedal Assist E-bikes, I have no intention of purchasing one. I just hope the majority of e-bikers in the area keep their speed down when traveling uphill and on the flats where there could be potential trail conflicts with other riders and pedestrians. I do not believe the 250watt Pedal Assist bikes pose any threat to trail damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    I'm in California now and so ebikers can ride anywhere a regular mtber can.
    That is not exactly true. Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage.
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Do you still ride with your hardcore mtbrs that turned solely ebikers? Or are you a bike snob? The OP asked "Why would a fit rider want to ride a ebike?" They don't belong on non- motorized trails is not an answer, but whatever.
    I addressed the OP's question in my second response in this thread (the first post was to praise someone for using an e-motorbike as a commuter). You would know this, of course, if you actually took the time to comprehend what people had written instead of taking offense and talking out of your ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    The reason why fit hardcore riders ride Ebikes is because it's FUN and a new twist on their riding. If they are truly hardcore mtbrs, they are not going to abondon their traditional bikes.
    Snowmobiles are fun, but I'd rather cross-country ski. ATVs are a blast, and so are dirt bikes, but they are inherently destructive, so I choose not to own or use them.

    I've got buddies with jet boats who fish big water, but I prefer to wade rivers, creeks, and streams. I might catch more fish--or at least bigger fish--from a boat, but it's not for me.

    As for e-motorcyclists not abandoning their bicycles, I don't know. My sample size is small. One of the guys I know pretty much only rides his e-motorbike now. The other, it hasn't come up.

    I'm still friends with them and I still respect them, but I don't agree with their choice or their rationale. Yet, somehow, our lives will go on.

  78. #78
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    Mr P, thanks; your description of riding in Scotland was very interesting.

    My opinions only - not to be confused with those of an intelligent individual.
    This thread was initiated because I wondered if I would have considered an e-MTB when I was very fit. Probably not since all my riding pals were on MTB's, and I wouldn't have wanted to get the minimal workout assist would have provided. Don't know how I would have reacted to non-physically challenged riders on them (I have always championed extra allowances for those who are physically challenged), but I hope that I would have been as gracious as SHM, JBW and KJ in my "negativity".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is not exactly true. Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage.
    I'm no expert on CA law but this doesn't pass the sniff test.

    A land manager of private property can adopt any policy that doesn't violate the law generally. That has nothing to do with e-bikes vs. mtb.

    Government agencies, on the other hand, do not have "the right to set their own definitions" generally. A "right" is something that one has in the absence of government interference; government agencies can generally do only what the law specifically enables them to do (after all, they don't even exist without government interference). There would need to be an explicit statement that they could do so for this to be the case. Perhaps there is here but more likely there's just an assumption.

    Even assuming this is the case, it would be unlikely, for example, that an agency could declare "Giant brand" bicycles off limits in a park. That's a reasonable example "a right to set their own definitions" but would most certainly be addressed by the courts. I think the hysteria needs to be tempered, especially when it comes from SuperModerators. It's certainly possible for a judge to view negatively a unilateral redefinition of an e-bike inconsistent with existing state law.

    Again, what I see here is that the enemy of e-bikes is regular cyclists, not the public. Even so-called statements of support are qualified with "so long as they ride slow around me" and they don't interfere with my personal riding entitlement. Trails are shared resources for the enjoyment of all, not just for you and the bike you choose to ride. Be part of the solution, not the problem.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I'm no expert on CA law but this doesn't pass the sniff test.

    A land manager of private property can adopt any policy that doesn't violate the law generally. That has nothing to do with e-bikes vs. mtb.

    Government agencies, on the other hand, do not have "the right to set their own definitions" generally. A "right" is something that one has in the absence of government interference; government agencies can generally do only what the law specifically enables them to do (after all, they don't even exist without government interference). There would need to be an explicit statement that they could do so for this to be the case. Perhaps there is here but more likely there's just an assumption.

    Even assuming this is the case, it would be unlikely, for example, that an agency could declare "Giant brand" bicycles off limits in a park. That's a reasonable example "a right to set their own definitions" but would most certainly be addressed by the courts. I think the hysteria needs to be tempered, especially when it comes from SuperModerators. It's certainly possible for a judge to view negatively a unilateral redefinition of an e-bike inconsistent with existing state law.

    Again, what I see here is that the enemy of e-bikes is regular cyclists, not the public. Even so-called statements of support are qualified with "so long as they ride slow around me" and they don't interfere with my personal riding entitlement. Trails are shared resources for the enjoyment of all, not just for you and the bike you choose to ride. Be part of the solution, not the problem.
    Read AB-1096. Become an expert.

    As Klurejr correctly states local government agencies in California are permitted to ban Class 1 & 2 e-bikes on biking trails under their jurisdiction. (And/or permit Class 3)

    This decision can be up to a single individual; in CA State Parks it's the District Superintendent that makes the call. (They do take some guidance from Sacramento, which hasn't yet created a general e-bike policy)
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Again, what I see here is that the enemy of e-bikes is regular cyclists, not the public.
    Cyclists are part of the public, some of the best public there is IMHO.

    A large portion of the public could care less if they built freeways through national parks but there are a substantial number of citizens (equestrians/hikers) that oppose the use of motors on many multi-use trails.

    Not just cyclists.
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Cyclists are part of the public, some of the best public there is IMHO.
    And some of the worst as well. Cyclists are no different.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    A large portion of the public could care less if they built freeways through national parks but there are a substantial number of citizens (equestrians/hikers) that oppose the use of motors on many multi-use trails.

    Not just cyclists.
    And many cyclists don't oppose it, not just a large portion of the public. Cuts both ways and I don't know why you think this argument is convincing. Furthermore, I don't think very many people agree with the arbitrary distinction of "motors" vs. "motor vehicles". There's a big difference between gas engines and 1hp electric assist. The ones who seem to care about "motors" appear to all be cyclists, especially those who feel entitled to exclude others from the club.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Again, what I see here is that the enemy of e-bikes is regular cyclists, not the public.
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    And many cyclists don't oppose it, not just a large portion of the public. Cuts both ways and I don't know why you think this argument is convincing.

    Make up your mind, you're only arguing with yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdparrish View Post
    I addressed the OP's question in my second response in this thread (the first post was to praise someone for using an e-motorbike as a commuter). You would know this, of course, if you actually took the time to comprehend what people had written instead of taking offense and talking out of your ass.


    Snowmobiles are fun, but I'd rather cross-country ski. ATVs are a blast, and so are dirt bikes, but they are inherently destructive, so I choose not to own or use them.

    I've got buddies with jet boats who fish big water, but I prefer to wade rivers, creeks, and streams. I might catch more fish--or at least bigger fish--from a boat, but it's not for me.

    As for e-motorcyclists not abandoning their bicycles, I don't know. My sample size is small. One of the guys I know pretty much only rides his e-motorbike now. The other, it hasn't come up.

    I'm still friends with them and I still respect them, but I don't agree with their choice or their rationale. Yet, somehow, our lives will go on.
    I take it back, your probably not a nice guy but whatever. You're too mellow for an ebike. I think the pace might disrupt your soy burger at lunch time.
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by dman_mb1 View Post
    It's interesting that one of the criticisms in this video is lack of speed on downhill or other fast sections of trail, though of course this is with Euro speed restrictions which I think are 5 mph (3 mph) less than in the US. So while most of the criticism here on mtbr relates to the motors and the power they're providing, to these bikeradar guys, the problem is that they're too slow!
    They weren't really clear about what speed limit eMTB they were riding. IIRC one mentions 15mph and the other mentions 28mph. My best guess is they were riding the Euro 15mph limited eMTB (?). No one that I've met or read about testing out a 15mph eMTB likes the feeling you get on the faster flats or semi-flats when they hit the assist limiter "brick wall." Again IIRC speed limiters here in the USA are 20mph and 28mph, so not quite as problematic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    As Klurejr correctly states local government agencies in California are permitted to ban Class 1 & 2 e-bikes on biking trails under their jurisdiction. (And/or permit Class 3)
    Not what he said at all.

    "Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage."

    "are permitted" is not "the right" and banning "Class 1 & 2 e-bikes" is not the same as "set their own definitions". Had the comment been reasonable and defensible there would have been no need to comment.

    Now I don't really know whether that's true nor do I have any skin in it, but what I do know is that agencies do things all the time that exceed their authority. In Texas it is commonplace for agencies to enact policies in violation of law. They sometimes get caught but never punished. In CA, has any such ban been defended in court? An important question when it comes to declaring "rights". This generally boils down to how wealthy are those that are wronged and I'd guess e-bike riders aren't a powerful force (especially with the "support" they receive from fellow cyclists).

    The purpose BTW wasn't to correct a post, it's to call attention to the fact that some posters make statements of fact in ignorance, including moderators. If you want to enable change you have to know the game. Comments like his are unhelpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    This decision can be up to a single individual; in CA State Parks it's the District Superintendent that makes the call. (They do take some guidance from Sacramento, which hasn't yet created a general e-bike policy)
    I believe they take "significant" guidance from Sacramento since they don't exist in absence of the state. It's more likely this is a matter of "might makes right" rather than anything else. What e-bike rider is going to challenge an official that asks him to leave? That would be true in my state as well, whether the legal authority exists or not.

    Regardless, if you argue for the government's ability to discriminate then you are part of the problem. These agencies exist to enable public enjoyment of public resources, not to reserve them for the few at the cost of the many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Make up your mind, you're only arguing with yourself.
    You're making yourself look bad, par for the course here on MTBR.

    Saying that regular cyclists are the enemy of e-bikes is, of course, not the same as saying "all cyclists" are. I'm not stupid though it appears you think everyone else is.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Not what he said at all.

    "Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage."

    "are permitted" is not "the right" and banning "Class 1 & 2 e-bikes" is not the same as "set their own definitions". Had the comment been reasonable and defensible there would have been no need to comment.

    Now I don't really know whether that's true nor do I have any skin in it, but what I do know is that agencies do things all the time that exceed their authority. In Texas it is commonplace for agencies to enact policies in violation of law. They sometimes get caught but never punished. In CA, has any such ban been defended in court? An important question when it comes to declaring "rights". This generally boils down to how wealthy are those that are wronged and I'd guess e-bike riders aren't a powerful force (especially with the "support" they receive from fellow cyclists).

    The purpose BTW wasn't to correct a post, it's to call attention to the fact that some posters make statements of fact in ignorance, including moderators. If you want to enable change you have to know the game. Comments like his are unhelpful.


    I believe they take "significant" guidance from Sacramento since they don't exist in absence of the state. It's more likely this is a matter of "might makes right" rather than anything else. What e-bike rider is going to challenge an official that asks him to leave? That would be true in my state as well, whether the legal authority exists or not.

    Regardless, if you argue for the government's ability to discriminate then you are part of the problem. These agencies exist to enable public enjoyment of public resources, not to reserve them for the few at the cost of the many.
    I was melding what Klurejr had posted elsewhere. My bad.

    The way the CA law was written was so local authorities can discriminate based on local conditions; a rather common sense provision IMHO. Unfortunately this leeway also allows for individual preferences/opinions to hold sway.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I'm not stupid though it appears you think everyone else is.
    Not true, I don't think everyone is stupid.

    - the above comment was typed in a lighthearted and jovial manner.
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  90. #90
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    AFAIK, the office of the superintendent of parks in Orange County, CA decided NOT to allow e-bikes on trails in the parks (this information was from a friend who contacted them). The individual park Rangers that I asked confirmed this, but said it was legal for physically challenged individuals. The Irvine Conservancy, which manages 60,000 acres of private wilderness in the county has pretty much the same rules (delineated on their web site "Let's Go Outside").

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Not what he said at all.

    "Every Land manger has the right to set their own definitions as to what is or is not allowed in the Parks they manage."

    "are permitted" is not "the right" and banning "Class 1 & 2 e-bikes" is not the same as "set their own definitions". Had the comment been reasonable and defensible there would have been no need to comment.

    Now I don't really know whether that's true nor do I have any skin in it, but what I do know is that agencies do things all the time that exceed their authority. In Texas it is commonplace for agencies to enact policies in violation of law. They sometimes get caught but never punished. In CA, has any such ban been defended in court? An important question when it comes to declaring "rights". This generally boils down to how wealthy are those that are wronged and I'd guess e-bike riders aren't a powerful force (especially with the "support" they receive from fellow cyclists).

    The purpose BTW wasn't to correct a post, it's to call attention to the fact that some posters make statements of fact in ignorance, including moderators. If you want to enable change you have to know the game. Comments like his are unhelpful.


    I believe they take "significant" guidance from Sacramento since they don't exist in absence of the state. It's more likely this is a matter of "might makes right" rather than anything else. What e-bike rider is going to challenge an official that asks him to leave? That would be true in my state as well, whether the legal authority exists or not.

    Regardless, if you argue for the government's ability to discriminate then you are part of the problem. These agencies exist to enable public enjoyment of public resources, not to reserve them for the few at the cost of the many.
    Regardless of what you happen to think about the way I explained it, Land Managers in California have the right to decide if they will or will not allow e-bikes of any kind to travel on the land they manage. I happen to believe my words implied that clearly and I apologize if you took it to mean something very different. I am not sure how it could be construed differently, but whatever... That is the fact of the matter.

    As for unhelpful posts... perhaps spend less time dissecting the way something is stated online? I was merely clarifying a mistaken post:
    I'm in California now and so ebikers can ride anywhere a regular mtber can.
    That statement quoted is flat out incorrect.

    Also, before you make anymore comments, please go visit the forum rules and become familiar with them:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/befor...e-1022310.html
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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavin -LightCarbon View Post
    In your climbing way, there may be a few slopes that are too steep that you are not able to climb.
    Even you make it, it will consume most of your power and you may not be able to have good condition in the following climbing.
    E-bike enables you to conquer more hills with steep slopes, go different routes and see different scenery.
    And you will be able to travel much longer distance.
    Travel longer ? How so? Until the battery runs out? Then what? I've done 50 miles off road and 80 on road ( touring) in a day. No motor needed. Farther than that?

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I think the pace might disrupt your soy burger at lunch time.
    Can't say I've ever had a soy burger. However, I'll raise a toast to you tonight while enjoying a beer and a bacon jalapeno cheeseburger.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I'm no expert on CA law but this doesn't pass the sniff test.

    A land manager of private property can adopt any policy that doesn't violate the law generally. That has nothing to do with e-bikes vs. mtb.

    Government agencies, on the other hand, do not have "the right to set their own definitions" generally. A "right" is something that one has in the absence of government interference; government agencies can generally do only what the law specifically enables them to do (after all, they don't even exist without government interference). There would need to be an explicit statement that they could do so for this to be the case. Perhaps there is here but more likely there's just an assumption.

    Even assuming this is the case, it would be unlikely, for example, that an agency could declare "Giant brand" bicycles off limits in a park. That's a reasonable example "a right to set their own definitions" but would most certainly be addressed by the courts. I think the hysteria needs to be tempered, especially when it comes from SuperModerators. It's certainly possible for a judge to view negatively a unilateral redefinition of an e-bike inconsistent with existing state law.

    Again, what I see here is that the enemy of e-bikes is regular cyclists, not the public. Even so-called statements of support are qualified with "so long as they ride slow around me" and they don't interfere with my personal riding entitlement. Trails are shared resources for the enjoyment of all, not just for you and the bike you choose to ride. Be part of the solution, not the problem.
    Umm, bikes don't have motors. E bikes are something else. And need to be defined differently. Motor vehicles on the trail don't seem to be " part" of the solution. Maybe in areas with lots of trails, lots of motos, and few users with little conflicts. Many trail areas have lots of user issues, crowding and conflicts. And getting trails shut down to all wheeled users would be a "problem" for me.

  95. #95
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    If you only have a limited amount of time in the day to ride, such as a two hour block, then an eMTB will let you cover more ground in the same amount of time. There is also an undeniable appeal to having "seven league boots" and being able to magnify your input up to superman levels when wanted.....

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    And some of the worst as well. Cyclists are no different.


    And many cyclists don't oppose it, not just a large portion of the public. Cuts both ways and I don't know why you think this argument is convincing. Furthermore, I don't think very many people agree with the arbitrary distinction of "motors" vs. "motor vehicles". There's a big difference between gas engines and 1hp electric assist. The ones who seem to care about "motors" appear to all be cyclists, especially those who feel entitled to exclude others from the club.
    It has a motor. Not arbitrary. Usually there are these things call trail rules and regulations. As in no motor vehicles. Everyone with a bike is welcome to join the club. Where bikes are legal that is. Not excluding any one, just leave your emotorcycle at home, or on the street, or where they are legal like some atv /ORV areas. Easy. Adding a motor to your bike makes it be in a different club. The problem lies with thinking that they are in the same club. And the key to most of the talk here.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    This thread was initiated because I wondered if I would have considered an e-MTB when I was very fit. Probably not since all my riding pals were on MTB's, and I wouldn't have wanted to get the minimal workout assist would have provided.
    I'm older than I would like to be and a lot less fit than I used to be but I still wouldn't want an eBike. I hate the way today's society is happy with the dumbing down of just about everything. People aren't prepared to put any effort into anything any more.

    When I was a kid there would be fifty kids playing football on the park outside our house. Now there are none. They are all playing computer games. Peddling is a major component of cycling. If you don't want to peddle, go watch TV?

    I must agree with you that of course this does not apply to people who are disabled in some way.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If you only have a limited amount of time in the day to ride, such as a two hour block, then an eMTB will let you cover more ground in the same amount of time. There is also an undeniable appeal to having "seven league boots" and being able to magnify your input up to superman levels when wanted.....
    So my two hour ride is somehow diminished because I don't have a motor? Maybe distance is not the only measure of the fun scale?

  99. #99
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    Mr P, not to argue (and I'm too old to have played video games as a kid, and my kids, now including granddaughter, all enjoy outside activities), if I implied that I NEED assist, I was wrong. My only contention is that I enjoy the change of pace the e-Mtb provides and it supplements, not replaces my MTB riding (that is, I add it to the amount of MTB activity that would be experienced). This is just to clarify, I don't care what anyone thinks of my position.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Wondered about this while reading a previous thread; maybe there's a few possibilities WHERE IT'S LEGAL:

    1) Bikepacking with a big load.
    2) Change of pace; it's been fun for me.
    3) Need to travel a long distance for some reason.

    Any others?
    To follow and film Absa Cape Epic. Ex-riders/winners on ebikes. Amazing footage. You need one to follow these super humans!

    Stage 1 today (20 March )
    7500 vert over 62 miles in 95 degree heat: winning time 4 hr 25 min...avg speed 14.25 mph!!!

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