Page 9 of 12 FirstFirst ... 56789101112 LastLast
Results 401 to 450 of 563
  1. #401
    Motion activated
    Reputation: Steve71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,199
    Now that I think about it, I get it.

    A moto has so much power, suspension, tires & weight that it is a very different experience than a DH bike.

    What makes mountain bikes so much fun is the light weight and ability to bunny hop & pump etc.

    ebikes don't have enough power/suspension/tires to be like a moto, and are too heavy which takes away from their ability to bunny hop/pump etc.

    So it ends up being like a heavy mountain bike rather than a light moto.

    Which is my biggest fear, given how $$ they are. It'll be the 25,000 watt e-moto that weighs 100-120lb that will be the best of both worlds. That's probably still a decade away.

    Luckily I can and do ride the moto and MTB on my land. My kids have OSET trials bikes and I want to build some trails that are more suited for that. My KTM 300 isn't going to be any good for those type of trails and it's impossible to keep up with them on my mountain bike. And when we're all on our mountain bikes, they can't keep up. First world problems!
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  2. #402
    Motion activated
    Reputation: Steve71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,199
    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Probably I'm not a good enough descender to provide relevant data, but I thought the Specialized Levo was very effective; also put "yardbike" into your browser.
    That looks like a very mature product for first run. But for that price you could by a brand new high end moto. Which of course you couldn't really ride in your back yard...
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  3. #403
    Motion activated
    Reputation: Steve71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,199
    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I doubt the ebikes suck downhill, they are just very different since they carry a low center of gravity for the weight and have a different feel than a DH bike.

    Honestly I would love to try one back to back with my DH rig at the Bike Park.
    That would be a fun test. One of the great things about a moto is being able to use the throttle to lift the front wheel. But an e-bike can't do that (or can they?) so it would end up feeling heavy. Pedaling DH isn't a big deal so what do you really gain? I guess acceleration out of corners? Probably really easy to over shoot jumps if the motor wasn't speed limited, like most are.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  4. #404
    no motor
    Reputation: tiretracks's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,579
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Yep. But who's to say that mtb won't follow. MTB's already heavily influenced by moto.

    I've already voiced my complaints about dirt roadies and how they bring over uncivil behavior from the road side, riding in big groups and not properly following rules/etiquette which help maintain order. Do you really want to be so conservative that you stick to that image? Ebikes are like a moped, but with a cleaner motor to me, distinguishing them from scooters like Vespas and larger motor vehicles. I'd rather see the motors kept small and efficient.

    Gearboxes, DH tires, good suspension, durable frame and parts that are also *affordable*. I can only dream that a big respectable company like Shimano making some partnerships and make things happen. I already dumped $4k into my FS, and would be willing to trade that for an eBike that I'm not scared of cracking in a crash.



    I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.
    Aging out is inevitable, emotorbikes are not.

  5. #405
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    259
    Quote Originally Posted by tiretracks View Post
    I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.
    Such motor prejudice and hypocrisy. Motos and offroad vehicles have motors... ebikes must be the same.

    Wow, much same, so logic... dumb logic is fun. I'd like to see electric toothbrushes, refrigerators, fans/AC, power tools, washing machines, electric cars, etc. allowed to be confined to residences who have proper licensing. Others should be fine with regular toothbrushes, iceboxes, hand-fans, hand tools, hand washing basins, and bicycles. I use most of the latter, therefore I'm not lazy and it's the users of the former that are the problem, being so lazy and causing trouble for others and the environment! I don't want to share the world with them!

    Why would a fit rider want to e-MTB?-shibainuwowlogicfacepalm.jpg

  6. #406
    Motion activated
    Reputation: Steve71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,199
    Quote Originally Posted by tiretracks View Post
    I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.
    The trouble is they ( < 750 watts / pedal assist) are not really suited to moto trails. They are way more MTB than moto.

    However, I believe the enviro nazi's will use e-bikes as an excuse to grab more land. So I don't support them on non-motorized trails. Not because I think they will cause problems with erosion or conflict etc. But because it gives ammo to the enemy. Anything that puts our access in jeopardy is BAD!
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  7. #407
    no motor
    Reputation: tiretracks's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,579
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Such motor prejudice and hypocrisy. Motos and offroad vehicles have motors... ebikes must be the same.

    Wow, much same, so logic... dumb logic is fun. I'd like to see electric toothbrushes, refrigerators, fans/AC, power tools, washing machines, electric cars, etc. allowed to be confined to residences who have proper licensing. Others should be fine with regular toothbrushes, iceboxes, hand-fans, hand tools, hand washing basins, and bicycles. The former are for the lazy, are not good for the environment, and cause trouble to other users.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ShibaInuWowLogicFacepalm.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	47.1 KB 
ID:	1132811





    With the wish list trending to be more like motorcycles push back should be expected. I would expect to see outright bannings as you guys up the quotient in the e motor race. And as an FYI, the preponderance of members here are fine with bicycles without motors. The rest of your straw man argument is simple nonsense.
    Aging out is inevitable, emotorbikes are not.

  8. #408
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    259
    Quote Originally Posted by tiretracks View Post
    With the wish list trending to be more like motorcycles push back should be expected. I would expect to see outright bannings as you guys up the quotient in the e motor race. And as an FYI, the preponderance of members here are fine with bicycles without motors. The rest of your straw man argument is simple nonsense.
    My wish list is for smart design that isn't overpriced nor foolishly fragile. Cars and motos that have been designed from the ground up result in being about the same since they already were made thinking out of the box, and other industry advances haven't opened up new opportunity to improve greatly on it in a price conscious way. If there were suddenly free energy invented introduced to the world, I bet cars would change drastically in a short matter of time. MTB, on the other hand, still works inside a fairly small box. Ever thought how to better interface the feet to the bike? Are the way pedals are connected to the crankarm ideal? Why not go wider on hub spacing up front? What's with the stubby head tubes on bikes, considering how much force is going through them? Anything still thinking in the box after such a singularity-type event would simply not survive. Adapt or die.

    I'm just hoping for anything to break this in-the-box thinking at this point. eBikes are just convenient, since they offer what I'm looking for, more durability and less demand for a rider that has months/years of riding boosting their pedaling/riding efficiency. Just like any other demand, I'm interested if I see a need, but I just want it to be sensibly designed. If there were something to make flossing easier invented, that was very affordable, I'd be interested in buying into it if it weren't a potential pollution problem. Out of the box thinking might be something like that Waterpik, rather than something that relies on a strand of waxed string.

  9. #409
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,298
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Such motor prejudice and hypocrisy. Motos and offroad vehicles have motors... ebikes must be the same.

    Wow, much same, so logic... dumb logic is fun. I'd like to see electric toothbrushes, refrigerators, fans/AC, power tools, washing machines, electric cars, etc. allowed to be confined to residences who have proper licensing. Others should be fine with regular toothbrushes, iceboxes, hand-fans, hand tools, hand washing basins, and bicycles. I use most of the latter, therefore I'm not lazy and it's the users of the former that are the problem, being so lazy and causing trouble for others and the environment! I don't want to share the world with them!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ShibaInuWowLogicFacepalm.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	47.1 KB 
ID:	1132811
    I would be willing to share with all the motorized stuff. I like my electric toothbrush. Once you put a MOTOR on a bike, it is not a bicycle anymore. It is something else. Bikes don't have motors. And in MA, no motorized vehicles( for the most part) allowed on multi use trails. Not going to get an ebike anytime. At least not for off road. I'm a reasonably fit rider.

  10. #410
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,298
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    My wish list is for smart design that isn't overpriced nor foolishly fragile. Cars and motos that have been designed from the ground up result in being about the same since they already were made thinking out of the box, and other industry advances haven't opened up new opportunity to improve greatly on it in a price conscious way. If there were suddenly free energy invented introduced to the world, I bet cars would change drastically in a short matter of time. MTB, on the other hand, still works inside a fairly small box. Ever thought how to better interface the feet to the bike? Are the way pedals are connected to the crankarm ideal? Why not go wider on hub spacing up front? What's with the stubby head tubes on bikes, considering how much force is going through them? Anything still thinking in the box after such a singularity-type event would simply not survive. Adapt or die.

    I'm just hoping for anything to break this in-the-box thinking at this point. eBikes are just convenient, since they offer what I'm looking for, more durability and less demand for a rider that has months/years of riding boosting their pedaling/riding efficiency. Just like any other demand, I'm interested if I see a need, but I just want it to be sensibly designed. If there were something to make flossing easier invented, that was very affordable, I'd be interested in buying into it if it weren't a potential pollution problem. Out of the box thinking might be something like that Waterpik, rather than something that relies on a strand of waxed string.
    Adding a motor is not boosting your pedaling efficiency. Its just adding a motor. Thinking like Lance?

  11. #411
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    259
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I would be willing to share with all the motorized stuff. I like my electric toothbrush. Once you put a MOTOR on a bike, it is not a bicycle anymore. It is something else. Bikes don't have motors. And in MA, no motorized vehicles( for the most part) allowed on multi use trails. Not going to get an ebike anytime. At least not for off road. I'm a reasonably fit rider.
    Motors didn't change any other the listed things either. They all serve the same purpose as the unmotorized version. You are creating classification that is creating segregation, since you don't want laws affecting them to also affect you. That's fine. Just drop the stupid logic that motors alone make it something it's not. Electric is totally different. Have you seen the electric concept vehicles for pavement travel? No real piping required for breathing and exhaust, no need for gear box, etc. Far less oil, grease, fuel to possibly contaminate things in case of a leak. It's something other than a typical car, but it fulfills the same purpose.

    Why would a fit rider want to e-MTB?-hirikofold.jpg

    Affordable full fairing recumbent ebikes might be in the future thanks to some investments here. Quit shitposting on stuff you're prejudiced against.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    eBikes are just convenient, since they offer what I'm looking for, more durability and less demand for a rider that has months/years of riding boosting their pedaling/riding efficiency.
    Adding a motor is not boosting your pedaling efficiency. Its just adding a motor. Thinking like Lance?
    How did you get that idea? An ebike does not require a rider that has boosted their efficiency through years of riding.

    I can twist words too. I know your type pridefully likes to say you're 90+% of the reason why a bike's fast. The bike's fast because of the rider. Well, doesn't that make you a tool? Since you're being used by the bike to go fast? It ain't gonna be as fast under me. On the other hand, an engineered bike, rather than an engineered rider, is the tool when it's doing most of the work, leveraging my input to get a much greater output. I use a hammer to smash something, you use your fist with a padded glove to smash something. If it doesn't smash with your fist, you train up weeks/months to make it happen. So proud, much glory... yea, I'll pass on that culture that you older folks thought up.

  12. #412
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by tiretracks View Post
    I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.
    BREAKING NEWS HERE!!! I would have never guessed since all you do is bash in the ebike forum

  13. #413
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    6,381
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Adding a motor is not boosting your pedaling efficiency. Its just adding a motor.
    Look at it this way. If, instead of electric motors, you had bikes that had petrol engines that put out the same sort of power as an eBike, would you want those on your trails? eBikes are just low powered motorbikes, which are things that have been around for a while. It's the stealthy power that makes them different.

    I was at Glentress trail centre on Saturday and saw eBikes there for the first time. Five of them. One old man on an eBike almost crashed into me when his bike 'ran away' from him, his words. Straight after that he ran up a banking and fell off. He clearly couldn't ride a bike very well at all and couldn't control the eBike very well yet here he was, high up a hill in a trail centre. I'd be very surprised if he made it back down without crashing. Without the eBike there is no way he would've been up there, and he shouldn't have been up there.

    A short while after that, while I was puffing up the difficult climb to Spooky Wood, three guys half my age blew past me on eBikes. I was working very hard but the play-station generation were chatting away as they 'climbed' the hill. You lazy.... I would love to be twenty-five again but you? Instead of pushing yourself, developing your strength and fitness, you just want to push a button for your thrills.

    Incidentally. I noticed that the steep climbs, the turns especially, were rutted in a way I've not seen before. I've been to Glentress many times and this trail damage on the climbs is new and eBikes are the only thing I can think of that might cause it.

  14. #414
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    775
    S71; since you are riding on private land, look at the Stealth Fighter and Hi-power cycles. Also, FYI, a battery-powered MC just won some kind or Red Bull MX drag race against 250 cc ICE bikes. This is for information only since none of it applies to anything but private land and possibly some MC-type areas. Of course, bikes are more expensive now than they should be which isn't surprising for a relatively new product. A friend is looking for a MC chassis to install big front and rear hub motors in for use on his private property.

  15. #415
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    259
    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    A friend is looking for a MC chassis to install big front and rear hub motors in for use on his private property.
    Mid-drive is where it's at, IMO.

  16. #416
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    259
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Incidentally. I noticed that the steep climbs, the turns especially, were rutted in a way I've not seen before. I've been to Glentress many times and this trail damage on the climbs is new and eBikes are the only thing I can think of that might cause it.
    Damage originating from going in the uphill direction?

    It's tough getting the new generation outdoors. A lot of overweight types at work. Only a handful of truly fit looking people (they stand out). A TON of fashionistas. A sadly low number of modest upright healthy-looking people, with some class.

  17. #417
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Look at it this way. If, instead of electric motors, you had bikes that had petrol engines that put out the same sort of power as an eBike, would you want those on your trails? eBikes are just low powered motorbikes, which are things that have been around for a while. It's the stealthy power that makes them different.

    I was at Glentress trail centre on Saturday and saw eBikes there for the first time. Five of them. One old man on an eBike almost crashed into me when his bike 'ran away' from him, his words. Straight after that he ran up a banking and fell off. He clearly couldn't ride a bike very well at all and couldn't control the eBike very well yet here he was, high up a hill in a trail centre. I'd be very surprised if he made it back down without crashing. Without the eBike there is no way he would've been up there, and he shouldn't have been up there.

    A short while after that, while I was puffing up the difficult climb to Spooky Wood, three guys half my age blew past me on eBikes. I was working very hard but the play-station generation were chatting away as they 'climbed' the hill. You lazy.... I would love to be twenty-five again but you? Instead of pushing yourself, developing your strength and fitness, you just want to push a button for your thrills.

    Incidentally. I noticed that the steep climbs, the turns especially, were rutted in a way I've not seen before. I've been to Glentress many times and this trail damage on the climbs is new and eBikes are the only thing I can think of that might cause it.
    You people are ridiculous - Once again a hiker can say someone on a regular bike should not have been somewhere that they got in over their heads. I am sure no one has ever crashed on a MTB on a place that was over their skill level

    And the first time you see all of 5 ebikes they must be the reason of trail damage. Lets see - more grip, fatter tires does not mean more trail damage!

  18. #418
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    6,381
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Damage originating from going in the uphill direction?
    Yes. Grooves cut into the trail. I've never seen that on these climbs before and I don't see how human-powered bikes could do it. You just couldn't put enough power down.

  19. #419
    Motion activated
    Reputation: Steve71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,199
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Yes. Grooves cut into the trail. I've never seen that on these climbs before and I don't see how human-powered bikes could do it. You just couldn't put enough power down.
    Unless it's a one way trail, it's most likely from locking up the rear tire when going DH.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  20. #420
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    6,381
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71 View Post
    Unless it's a one way trail, it's most likely from locking up the rear tire when going DH.
    It is a one-way trail. All trails at Glentress are.

  21. #421
    no motor
    Reputation: tiretracks's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Bmiller71 View Post
    BREAKING NEWS HERE!!! I would have never guessed since all you do is bash in the ebike forum



    Someone needs to do it.
    Aging out is inevitable, emotorbikes are not.

  22. #422
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    775
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Mid-drive is where it's at, IMO.
    I agree for relatively low-power systems; for extreme power hub is better IMO, if for no other reason than less wear on the drivetrain.

  23. #423
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    259
    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    I agree for relatively low-power systems; for extreme power hub is better IMO, if for no other reason than less wear on the drivetrain.
    Never thought about drivetrain wear at 2000+W. I just thought that was ridiculous to begin with, considering the durability of current mtb components. So you're looking for 1000+W hubs front and rear? Well, I see why you want to keep it on his property... that seems like it'd make for a funny "hold my beer" video.

  24. #424
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    7,007
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Such motor prejudice and hypocrisy. Motos and offroad vehicles have motors... ebikes must be the same.

    Wow, much same, so logic... dumb logic is fun.

    Electric bikes and bicycles both have pedals so they must both be the same. Dumb logic is fun?


    Quote Originally Posted by tiretracks View Post
    I'd rather see motors confined to motorized only trails.
    While I do agree with your sentiment I think there's room for a mix. I've advocated here since the beginning that officially separating bicycles from e-bikes and evaluating appropriate uses for trails on an individual basis is the most fair for everyone but most of the e-bike junkies here seem to think that's just hate mail.

    Shoot, almost forgot to address the op. A fit rider might ride an e-bike because they want to.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  25. #425
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    775
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Never thought about drivetrain wear at 2000+W. I just thought that was ridiculous to begin with, considering the durability of current mtb components. So you're looking for 1000+W hubs front and rear? Well, I see why you want to keep it on his property... that seems like it'd make for a funny "hold my beer" video.
    NOT ME, but some individuals are pushing up to 25 kw or so (haven't studied the upper limits, so that's a guess); look at endless sphere for the extremes.

  26. #426
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    775
    JB, that's the only reason that I've had so far; it's a fun diversion (FOR ME, maybe not others). However, it's been interesting reading the other viable uses for them. Sadly (not really), my wife likes to suffer and won't ride one, so I slog along (happily) on one of my MTB's with her. Only ride the "e-creature" when alone or with other "cheaters" (not poachers, cheaters).

  27. #427
    middle ring single track
    Reputation: Moe Ped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,395
    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    I agree for relatively low-power systems; for extreme power hub is better IMO, if for no other reason than less wear on the drivetrain.
    BTW look up "un-sprung weight"; big hub motors are really bad in this regard if the bike/moto has suspension. For extreme power just ride a moto. They do make some really nice electric motorcycles.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

    Windows 10, destroying humanity one upgrade at a time.

  28. #428
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    259
    Who's advocating that ebikes should be bikes? There's already been half a dozen states that made ebike classifications to deal with them. Anyone trying to say they're something else, moto or bike, is trying to con you. These laws are paving the way, green lighting the manufacturing of legal ebikes that fit the mold. A 250W motor pedelec worry you? It's like being afraid of all spiders and snakes since some are venomous, and crying for their extermination as a species, when the 8000+W monstrosities are spawned.

    Wonder what a fit rider on an ebike would behave like. Would you worry that their behavior would be socially acceptable or not? I personally wouldn't be able to tell, though considering all the toxicity, I'd bet on them eventually turning in a jerk, being shaped by how others treat them.

  29. #429
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    7,007
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Who's advocating that ebikes should be bikes?
    Specialized? Giant? Trek?

    I'm not going to delve into specifics but the trend seems to be pushing towards classifying certain type of electric bikes (type 1,2 etc.) as being legally the same thing as a bicycle, and therefore unless otherwise stated are automatically allowed on any trail that a mountain bike is allowed on. I don't claim to be a genius but it seems pretty obvious that the end game is mostly about money, those manufacturers are absolutely chomping at the bit on this one because the market potential is wide open.


    Note that I've nothing against electric bikes or people who ride them, I'd ride one and I'm pretty fit. Because fun.

    (also note the "on topic" clause^^^)
    I brake for stinkbugs

  30. #430
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    775
    JPW, exactly correct based on my conversations with the individuals who lobbied for the laws in CA, UT and NC. Their intent was bike paths and lanes only. If any group is trying to get them on trails (other than individual e-riders), it's the manufacturers.

  31. #431
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,197
    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    JPW, exactly correct based on my conversations with the individuals who lobbied for the laws in CA, UT and NC. Their intent was bike paths and lanes only. If any group is trying to get them on trails (other than individual e-riders), it's the manufacturers.
    Agreed, it's all the manufacturers, retailers and the lobbyists they give money to. There isn't any groundswell of citizen ebike riders or ebike advocacy groups behind any of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71 View Post
    Interesting POV. How is it possible that a dirt bike weighting ~250 pounds can descend well, but a 50-60lb ebike can't. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's an honest question.

    I ride MTB's and dirt bikes and am interested in a powerful ebike for riding on my property with my kids. But if they sux, then I'll not waste the time and money.
    In my extremely unscientific experience chasing motos down single track, on a downhill, an equally skilled mtb rider can easily out ride a moto because it's shorter wheelbase and lighter weight makes if far more nimble and it can brake waaay later going into turns. On the flats and climbing obviously, the tables get turned. I'd guess that switching back and forth between mtb and ebike you'd feel the difference in weight, but I can't imagine you wouldn't get used to it and change your riding style to accommodate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71 View Post
    Which is my biggest fear, given how $$ they are. It'll be the 25,000 watt e-moto that weighs 100-120lb that will be the best of both worlds. That's probably still a decade away.
    All it takes is money: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...2cdf397a796d5a


    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    At least 2 of us were talking about doing this on our own land.

    I don't think we are the only ones.
    Good for you? Since it's your land you can do anything you'd like.

  32. #432
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,298
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Who's advocating that ebikes should be bikes? There's already been half a dozen states that made ebike classifications to deal with them. Anyone trying to say they're something else, moto or bike, is trying to con you. These laws are paving the way, green lighting the manufacturing of legal ebikes that fit the mold. A 250W motor pedelec worry you? It's like being afraid of all spiders and snakes since some are venomous, and crying for their extermination as a species, when the 8000+W monstrosities are spawned.

    Wonder what a fit rider on an ebike would behave like. Would you worry that their behavior would be socially acceptable or not? I personally wouldn't be able to tell, though considering all the toxicity, I'd bet on them eventually turning in a jerk, being shaped by how others treat them.
    Its not the 250 pedelec that worry me. 250, 750, 2,000. How to tell by looking? You can't. After market mods and controller fixes are already here. The American need for speed and power, yah that won't happen.

  33. #433
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,298
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Motors didn't change any other the listed things either. They all serve the same purpose as the unmotorized version. You are creating classification that is creating segregation, since you don't want laws affecting them to also affect you. That's fine. Just drop the stupid logic that motors alone make it something it's not. Electric is totally different. Have you seen the electric concept vehicles for pavement travel? No real piping required for breathing and exhaust, no need for gear box, etc. Far less oil, grease, fuel to possibly contaminate things in case of a leak. It's something other than a typical car, but it fulfills the same purpose.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	HirikoFold.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	72.5 KB 
ID:	1132815

    Affordable full fairing recumbent ebikes might be in the future thanks to some investments here. Quit shitposting on stuff you're prejudiced against.



    How did you get that idea? An ebike does not require a rider that has boosted their efficiency through years of riding.

    I can twist words too. I know your type pridefully likes to say you're 90+% of the reason why a bike's fast. The bike's fast because of the rider. Well, doesn't that make you a tool? Since you're being used by the bike to go fast? It ain't gonna be as fast under me. On the other hand, an engineered bike, rather than an engineered rider, is the tool when it's doing most of the work, leveraging my input to get a much greater output. I use a hammer to smash something, you use your fist with a padded glove to smash something. If it doesn't smash with your fist, you train up weeks/months to make it happen. So proud, much glory... yea, I'll pass on that culture that you older folks thought up.
    Bikes are human powered. E bikes are something different. Disagreeing with those facts? Ever seen signs, " No Motorized Vehicles" ? Pretty clear. Electric cars, great. E bikes for commuting, awesome. But off subject here. My bike doesn't go anywhere unless I'm pedaling. So 100% of the power. No need for artificial power for me. I use coffee and bacon for speed and distance. It's too far, too steep, too hard, I have kids, not enough time? Yada, yada. Seems like a younger persons sense of whining and entitlement. Some things are meant to be challenging, difficult and human powered only. Do you take a chairlift when you go hiking? Or complain that hiking is too hard, takes too long and you don't have enough time? Being a fit rider, won't see me ever on an e bikes in the woods. Guess its a mater of perspective. I like mt biking under my own power, in the woods. A quiet getaway in nature. And not trying to pedal a really heavy bike. Can you even loft the front tire up and over anything? Would be a non starter here in MA. Logs and ledges everywhere. And last time I checked, this was the e bike forum, not the pro e bike forum. Dude. Older folks. Hmmm. The ones who started the mt bike movement, made the bikes, created' some " of the trails. Forged relationships with the land managers to get and keep mt bike access? The ones who show up for trail meetings, trail work days, meet with stake holders and dig dirt every season. I take pride in that culture. So the younger crowd" assuming you?" just shows up and thinks access and the trails were always here? Hmmm. I realize many of the riding areas/trails were hiking and moto made. Upkeep, bridges, reroutes and drainage don't get done by forest gnomes. Thats me. Your welcome. How many trail days have you done in say the last 2 seasons?

  34. #434
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,272
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Motors didn't change any other the listed things either. They all serve the same purpose as the unmotorized version. You are creating classification that is creating segregation, since you don't want laws affecting them to also affect you. That's fine. Just drop the stupid logic that motors alone make it something it's not. Electric is totally different. Have you seen the electric concept vehicles for pavement travel? No real piping required for breathing and exhaust, no need for gear box, etc. Far less oil, grease, fuel to possibly contaminate things in case of a leak. It's something other than a typical car, but it fulfills the same purpose.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	HirikoFold.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	72.5 KB 
ID:	1132815

    Affordable full fairing recumbent ebikes might be in the future thanks to some investments here. Quit shitposting on stuff you're prejudiced against.



    How did you get that idea? An ebike does not require a rider that has boosted their efficiency through years of riding.

    I can twist words too. I know your type pridefully likes to say you're 90+% of the reason why a bike's fast. The bike's fast because of the rider. Well, doesn't that make you a tool? Since you're being used by the bike to go fast? It ain't gonna be as fast under me. On the other hand, an engineered bike, rather than an engineered rider, is the tool when it's doing most of the work, leveraging my input to get a much greater output. I use a hammer to smash something, you use your fist with a padded glove to smash something. If it doesn't smash with your fist, you train up weeks/months to make it happen. So proud, much glory... yea, I'll pass on that culture that you older folks thought up.
    Do you see any difference between these two boats? Would you allow them everywhere together? Do you see any problems with both on the same lake?





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  35. #435
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,948
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    My bike doesn't go anywhere unless I'm pedaling. So 100% of the power.
    Your bike never goes downhill? Bikes are "potential energy" powered much of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Some things are meant to be challenging, difficult and human powered only.
    Bicycles are not one of those things. Until recently, it was largely impractical to do otherwise. Bicycles, throughout most of their history, were devices intended to make things easier, not to be "challenging, difficult and human powered only". You are completely on the wrong side of this argument and you only present it because it suits your point of view. Bicycles thoughout the world are, to this day, a tool to make work easier, not a recreational toy for you to define narrowly.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Do you take a chairlift when you go hiking?
    Many cyclists do as part of their rides!

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Being a fit rider, won't see me ever on an e bikes in the woods.
    Being an arrogant a-hole about it means I hope to never see you in the woods at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    And last time I checked, this was the e bike forum, not the pro e bike forum. Dude. Older folks. Hmmm. The ones who started the mt bike movement, made the bikes, created' some " of the trails. Forged relationships with the land managers to get and keep mt bike access? The ones who show up for trail meetings, trail work days, meet with stake holders and dig dirt every season. I take pride in that culture.
    Those are many different things and I doubt you really understand many of them. I'm certain your don't speak for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    So the younger crowd" assuming you?" just shows up and thinks access and the trails were always here? Hmmm. I realize many of the riding areas/trails were hiking and moto made.
    I don't think you do. Most trail systems were made by motor vehicles. You pretend they are due to efforts of heroes and that those heroes are privileged to define how bikes should be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Upkeep, bridges, reroutes and drainage don't get done by forest gnomes. Thats me. Your welcome. How many trail days have you done in say the last 2 seasons?
    You are talking about public land, you are not entitled to say who rides a trail simply because you worked on it. If you don't like it then quit doing it. Good riddance. The community would be better off without such entitled, judgmental, and wrong-minded attitudes. Public lands are for the enjoyment of all, not just you and your "difficult" bikes which you are so good at riding.

    It's ironic that these very arguments that were used against mountain bikers not long ago are now used by mountain bikers against their closest relatives.

  36. #436
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,948
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Do you see any difference between these two boats? Would you allow them everywhere together? Do you see any problems with both on the same lake?





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Those two boats coexist on lakes all over my state. There is no problem with it. There is an expectation that people operate their vehicles responsibly. I find it interesting that the assumption is that e-bike riders cannot while MTB riders always do. My impress is that the opposite is far more true.

  37. #437
    > /dev/null 2&>1
    Reputation: Procter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,479
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    Motors didn't change any other the listed things either. They all serve the same purpose as the unmotorized version. You are creating classification that is creating segregation, since you don't want laws affecting them to also affect you. That's fine. Just drop the stupid logic that motors alone make it something it's not.
    I get your point, but regardless of whether you get all MTBR to agree that the 'motor/non-motor' designation is arbitrary, the presence of the motor alone will be the single, most effective counter argument used by HIKERS/EQUESTRIANS in places like Marin (where it has already been used in council meetings.)

    Any segregation/designations we make here: fast ebikes (with no cutoffs), slow ebikes (with cutoffs), powerful ebikes (>1000w), non-powerful ebikes (<750w), throttle bikes, pedal assist bikes . . . no matter how practical they seem to be, will be completely irrelevant when the legal and policy battles are fought out, because all those things are customizable and none of them are reliably distinguishable by a Ranger on the trail. The motor itself is the only reliable, single, solid, binary identifier which can be used to restrict access for e-bikes but still protect access regular bikes. I see only one of these two outcomes in coming years:

    A) Ebikes are segregated from regular bikes based solely on their motor, and regular bikes retain access
    B) All bikes and e-bikes lose access

    Just watch the videos in this thread, there is an ebike in the background and they jump back and forth between bashing all bikes and decrying ebike access for the disabled. Once non-ADA are riding 1000W throttle assist ebkes around, do you really think stuffy old parks councils and the HOHAs will differentiate between bad ebikes, good ebikes, and regular bikes?

  38. #438
    > /dev/null 2&>1
    Reputation: Procter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,479
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Those two boats coexist on lakes all over my state. There is no problem with it. There is an expectation that people operate their vehicles responsibly. I find it interesting that the assumption is that e-bike riders cannot while MTB riders always do. My impress is that the opposite is far more true.
    Good luck with that argument in council meetings full of HOHAs.

  39. #439
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,948
    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Good luck with that argument in council meetings full of HOHAs.
    You can't argue with stupid people, without a doubt. You make a perfectly valid observation on an inane comment like that one and this is the response you get. Look no further than this very thread.

    The enemies of e-bikes are other cyclists. Need to stop pretending otherwise.

  40. #440
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    259
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    You can't argue with stupid people, without a doubt. You make a perfectly valid observation on an inane comment like that one and this is the response you get. Look no further than this very thread.

    The enemies of e-bikes are other cyclists. Need to stop pretending otherwise.
    You can't argue with stupid people, but you can dare them to do something that tests what they believe in, as long as you set it up for them conveniently.

    In this case, bet the stupid people that they can't demonstrate how to ride an ebike in a manner that they find is unacceptable, for whatever reason they have against them, providing the ebike to them and some trail which they don't call their backyard (in case they're some NIMBY). Free food and beer helps encourage them to show up.

  41. #441
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by zooey View Post
    You can't argue with stupid people, but you can dare them to do something that tests what they believe in, as long as you set it up for them conveniently.

    In this case, bet the stupid people that they can't demonstrate how to ride an ebike in a manner that they find is unacceptable, for whatever reason they have against them, providing the ebike to them and some trail which they don't call their backyard (in case they're some NIMBY). Free food and beer helps encourage them to show up.


    Stop trying to belittle people into accepting the inbred 3rd cousins of mountain bikes.

  42. #442
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,298
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Your bike never goes downhill? Bikes are "potential energy" powered much of the time.


    Bicycles are not one of those things. Until recently, it was largely impractical to do otherwise. Bicycles, throughout most of their history, were devices intended to make things easier, not to be "challenging, difficult and human powered only". You are completely on the wrong side of this argument and you only present it because it suits your point of view. Bicycles thoughout the world are, to this day, a tool to make work easier, not a recreational toy for you to define narrowly.


    Many cyclists do as part of their rides!


    Being an arrogant a-hole about it means I hope to never see you in the woods at all.


    Those are many different things and I doubt you really understand many of them. I'm certain your don't speak for them.


    I don't think you do. Most trail systems were made by motor vehicles. You pretend they are due to efforts of heroes and that those heroes are privileged to define how bikes should be used.


    You are talking about public land, you are not entitled to say who rides a trail simply because you worked on it. If you don't like it then quit doing it. Good riddance. The community would be better off without such entitled, judgmental, and wrong-minded attitudes. Public lands are for the enjoyment of all, not just you and your "difficult" bikes which you are so good at riding.

    It's ironic that these very arguments that were used against mountain bikers not long ago are now used by mountain bikers against their closest relatives.
    Where to start. Sure my bike goes downhill, coasting. No power used. Most trails systems were I ride were not made by motors here in New England. Try Game trails and hiking trails, Earliest dirt bikes? 50's or 60's? Or trails made by the the CCC during the works progress administration, some history for you. I have no say about public land, only follow the rules( no motor vehicles) set by the managers. Democracy? Don't like the rules? Vote to change them. Here in MA , not all riding areas are public, many are conservation ares, land trusts and reservations as well as open space as defined by state and town bylaws. No motors allowed. I like working on trails, great riding opportunities. I also hike, birdwatch and walk with the dog. Wrong minded, entitled, judgmental, hmmmm. Seems to be you with a big chip on your shoulder. And which community would this be? One of multi use trail users for all to share following the rules set by the land managers? Or the "community" of e motorcycles thinking that they have full access and rights just because it looks like a bike? Hmmm. Time will tell. Good luck with getting access. And you are in shape? And you ride with a motor because? Back to the OP's question. Way, way back.

  43. #443
    > /dev/null 2&>1
    Reputation: Procter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,479
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    You can't argue with stupid people, without a doubt. You make a perfectly valid observation on an inane comment like that one and this is the response you get. Look no further than this very thread.
    Let's give the boat analogy serious consideration:


    Lakes and most boating waterways allow two dimensional movement and have good sightlines, allowing faster vehicles to avoid slower vehicles. This is much different from twisty singletrack in a wooded area. Another argument against your boating analogy would be that there are many lakes/reservoirs/waterways where no motorized boats are allowed, often because they are smaller, or reserved for non motorized users, or have delicate ecology, etc. That's analogous to e-bikes on multi-use singletrack.

    Secondly, humans are extremely averse to ANY collisions of their vehicles for various reasons. For whatever reason, that fear of collision doesn't extend to bikes the same way. When driving your boat, you steer wide of others and behave very cautiously. When riding single track, for whatever reason, something is different and we often take more risk. Ebikes enable more of that risk, due to faster closing speeds for uphill riders and higher sustained speeds on flat. Typical ebike advertisement emphasizes the more risk-taking aspects of ebike riding.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    The enemies of e-bikes are other cyclists. Need to stop pretending otherwise.
    The cycling community needs to police itself on this before someone else does. Most of the opposition here is based on real practical reasons why Ebikes will have an overall negative effect on access and trails/environment/erosion.

    I have no objection to ebikes on 4wd roads, OHV trails. Take it to Northstar, ride the lifts if you want, no issues here because that doesn't pose any threat to access or do any worse trail damage than DH bikes already do. If ebikers want to petition their local authorities to allow e-bike only trails I'm totally cool with that too, they are welcome to do that.

    But beyond that, can't support it. I'll speak up against it before my bike gets lumped in with yours. If you think that means I'm an 'enemy of ebikes' I'm perfectly fine being called that, the comment is not derision to me.

  44. #444
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,948
    Quote Originally Posted by baddest grandpa View Post
    Stop trying to belittle people into accepting the inbred 3rd cousins of mountain bikes.
    These are among the stupid people I am referring to, zooey. You should know they will easily demonstrate something they find "is unacceptable". The failure is assuming that what they find unacceptable is important.

  45. #445
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,948
    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    some history for you.
    SOME history. Some cherry-picked history.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I have no say about public land, only follow the rules( no motor vehicles) set by the managers.
    E-bikes are not motor vehicles.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Democracy? Don't like the rules? Vote to change them.
    We don't have direct elections of rules, generally speaking, nor do we want that.

    But, of course, this isn't your strategy at all. Your course is to brag on the superiority of your form of recreation, criticize others', and lobby to ban those inferior forms from having access to your entitlements. Sure, that engages a form of democracy...that we don't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    No motors allowed.
    The tired old drum keeps getting beaten. It's a sure sign of a closed mind.

    E-bikes are not motor vehicles, they are a new form that is not fully addressed by existing definitions. They are essentially bicycles with some minor differences. Some areas recognize this but others don't. The problem that needs to get fixed is people referring to them as "motor vehicles". People like you. As I've said before, the enemy of e-bikes is cyclists, not hikers. Now that you've got yours, screw everyone else. Just like the equestrian attitude that MTB fought against.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Wrong minded, entitled, judgmental, hmmmm. Seems to be you with a big chip on your shoulder.
    Yes, I do. It annoys me to no end that people would deny others the same access to public resource that they enjoy. This is precisely what you argue. Trail riders suffered this discrimination not long ago and now they dish it out. You are a hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    One of multi use trail users for all to share following the rules set by the land managers?
    As a mountain biker, this would not be your side two decades ago, it only suits you now since in many places the antiquated "rules of land managers" have old language misapplied to a new kind of bicycle. It's an argument of convenience for you, nothing more. Trail riders are well known to violate these very rules when it suits them, there are even terms for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Or the "community" of e motorcycles thinking that they have full access and rights just because it looks like a bike?
    An absurd characterization of an e-bike, most of which ARE bikes that have been converted. Furthermore, once again you stoop to the ridiculous mislabeling of e-bikes as "motorcycles" to encourage prejudice. E-bikes are bicycles, just the kind not "elite" enough for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Good luck with getting access. And you are in shape? And you ride with a motor because? Back to the OP's question. Way, way back.
    I am not trying to "get access", my state defines e-bikes suitably already. I am simply arguing with your narrow-mindedness. I do not own an e-MTB and have never ridden one. I do care that those that do, or might, have the same access to recreation that I do and that if I choose to ride one in the future that I don't have to deal with a mass of stupidity like yours. I ride an e-bike commuter because my commute is very hilly. I think it is fantastic.

    I do find it interesting, though., that you assume my agenda.

  46. #446
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,948
    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Lakes and most boating waterways allow two dimensional movement and have good sightlines, allowing faster vehicles to avoid slower vehicles. This is much different from twisty singletrack in a wooded area.
    Then we should ban speed differential since that's the root cause. There is no evidence that e-bikes cause a greater differential than other trail bikes. We should ban fast riders on conventional MTBs to address this. Seriously. Sorry, does that hurt your enjoyment? How does that feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Another argument against your boating analogy...
    I don't know who the "your" refers to or why you would choose that word...it's a crappy analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    ...would be that there are many lakes/reservoirs/waterways where no motorized boats are allowed, often because they are smaller, or reserved for non motorized users, or have delicate ecology, etc. That's analogous to e-bikes on multi-use singletrack.
    No, it's analogous to banning all bicycles on some trails. You are suggesting that there are trails for which bicycles are suitable and e-bikes are not. What evidence supports that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Secondly, humans are extremely averse to ANY collisions of their vehicles for various reasons. For whatever reason, that fear of collision doesn't extend to bikes the same way. When driving your boat, you steer wide of others and behave very cautiously. When riding single track, for whatever reason, something is different and we often take more risk. Ebikes enable more of that risk, due to faster closing speeds for uphill riders and higher sustained speeds on flat. Typical ebike advertisement emphasizes the more risk-taking aspects of ebike riding.
    A truly absurd argument. Typical trail riding advertisement emphasizes "the more risk-taking aspects" far more than e-bikes do, what there is of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    The cycling community needs to police itself on this before someone else does. Most of the opposition here is based on real practical reasons why Ebikes will have an overall negative effect on access and trails/environment/erosion.
    This assumes that e-bikes need policing, that cyclists are entitled to do it, and that there is evidence that e-bikes have the "overall negative effect" you claim. None of these things are defendable, they are simply entitlement and prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    I have no objection to ebikes on 4wd roads, OHV trails. Take it to Northstar, ride the lifts if you want, no issues here because that doesn't pose any threat to access...
    And there it is. This is at the core of cyclist's hate of e-bikes. I want mine and would rather kill you than suffer any risk to my enjoyment at your hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    ...or do any worse trail damage than DH bikes already do.
    No evidence that e-bikes do more trail damage than any other bike does. No need for the "DH" qualifier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    If ebikers want to petition their local authorities to allow e-bike only trails I'm totally cool with that too, they are welcome to do that.
    Gee, thanks. So generous of you to offer that e-bikes work to exclude themselves from the cycling community. Reminds me of the "marriage equality" argument, we're all free to marry the opposite sex...

    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    But beyond that, can't support it. I'll speak up against it before my bike gets lumped in with yours. If you think that means I'm an 'enemy of ebikes' I'm perfectly fine being called that, the comment is not derision to me.
    Nope, and being called racist wasn't a term of derision to many once upon a time. Doesn't make you right, just shows you are pleased to feel you are in the majority.

  47. #447
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    7,007
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    And there it is. This is at the core of cyclist's hate of e-bikes. I want mine and would rather kill you than suffer any risk to my enjoyment at your hand.
    craigj, king of multi-quotes and wild exaggerations.


    *A fit rider might ride an electric bike because they can't hang with their fitter friends.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  48. #448
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,239
    "Would rather kill you"!??! Where on earth did you get that?

    As everyone here has pointed out repeatedly, we just want e-bikes considered their own class of vehicle on trails. If DIY monsterbikes become a problem, then the disconnect between normal bikes and e-bikes will already be in place so the blanket ban won't catch anyone else. That simple.

    -Walt

  49. #449
    chasing simplicity
    Reputation: MattMay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    532
    Another answer to the OP (remember that?): to compete at Sea Otter Classic.
    I know what it's like to be dead. "To Die & Live In LA."

  50. #450
    no motor
    Reputation: tiretracks's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,579
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    These are among the stupid people I am referring to, zooey. You should know they will easily demonstrate something they find "is unacceptable". The failure is assuming that what they find unacceptable is important.




    Why then should "we" find what you find acceptable important?
    Aging out is inevitable, emotorbikes are not.

Page 9 of 12 FirstFirst ... 56789101112 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. New rider
    By redhot1.4 in forum Texas
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 01-24-2017, 09:22 AM
  2. Faster rider, Stronger Rider
    By Osco in forum Beginner's Corner
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 12-29-2014, 08:29 PM
  3. Are you a "park rider" or a "wilderness rider?"
    By SWriverstone in forum Passion
    Replies: 133
    Last Post: 05-20-2014, 11:26 PM
  4. Experienced rider with newb rider in Moab
    By willdtrout in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-17-2012, 05:01 PM
  5. Rider down.........
    By gollub01 in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 06-23-2011, 11:16 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •