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  1. #1
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    What E-bike should I get for 10% inclines up to around 1000 feet high

    First off, let me say, and this is not kissing butt, that e-bikes seem like the coolest thing I've ever heard of. I don't have one yet. I will get one for sure later. I know a lot of people in different forums bash them, that's OK, don't worry about it. I don't think they would bash what I'm trying to do too much, and that's to get to remote stuff that would take hours for accessing on a 100% pedal bike.

    I will not tell you what two bikes I'm looking at because I already know you will want me to get the more expensive one. What I'm asking is that if there is a long 1.8 mile incline, 1000 feet at the top (around 10.5% incline), then is 250W ok or do I need to get a 500W bike? The 250W bike is 58 lbs and the 500W one is 48 lbs, I am around 145 lbs. Several people on here have said that 250W sucks. OK, but can it go up a 10% incline for 2 miles, if the amps are in theory 7.0 and the volts are 36? That's all I need to know because that's all I need, period. If I don't need the 500W one, then no point in getting it.

    The reason I ask is because there are two sets of hill/mountain trails across the road from where I live. Pedaling takes around 45 minutes just to get to the first set of trails, which are great, but that's 2+ hours of riding total just to get to the 1st set, ride them, and then pedal back home. I wish I had all day to bike but working 60-70 hrs/week means I don't. That's where the e-bike comes in. I could then easily get to the 2nd set of trails further up the 2000 foot mountain and do those trails. If I had to I could pedal everything except the 1.8 mile 10% incline up to the 2nd set of trails. If I had extra juice left I could use that on the way back on the gravel road at the bottom of the mountain. So is 250W, 36V, 7A enough for 9000 feet on a 10% incline? Would the motor need a break or two due to overheating?

  2. #2
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    I don't think it matters. Most of the climbs here are 10%, 1,000'+ and we all do them on 0W bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I don't think it matters. Most of the climbs here are 10%, 1,000'+ and we all do them on 0W bikes.
    What he said^^
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    OK let me rephrase that, will a 250W e-bike climb 1000 feet and 1.8 miles in 10 minutes instead of 30 minutes. I cannot ride a 0W bike 1000 feet up in 10 minutes on dirt, in part because us sea-level mortals don't have the oxygen stamina.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    know a lot of people in different forums bash them, that's OK, don't worry about it. I don't think they would bash what I'm trying to do too much, and that's to get to remote stuff that would take hours for accessing on a 100% pedal bike.
    Ha, that's exactly one the reasons why I bash them but it doesn't matter.

    If they're legal on the trails you're talking about you'd probably want to get whichever one falls into the class 1 status regardless of hill climbing power, unless you're talking about multi-use moto trails.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    OK let me rephrase that, will a 250W e-bike climb 1000 feet and 1.8 miles in 10 minutes instead of 30 minutes. I cannot ride a 0W bike 1000 feet up in 10 minutes on dirt, in part because us sea-level mortals don't have the oxygen stamina.
    Are you on time constraints for your rides? 20 extra minutes doesn't seem like such a big deal.
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  7. #7
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    Why does everything have to easy?

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    Sea-level mortal here - sounds like you're planning to top out at 9000 feet or so. Assuming you are already in good shape at 0ft, it does get easier after a 4-5 rides at altitude - and after a few seasons of that, it takes only ~2 rides to get it back.

    58lb / 48lb bikes are beast to descend with or on technical or tight terrain, it kind of defeats the whole purpose of riding (well for me at least). Are you sure you can't give it a shot with a normal bike (push yourself a little further/higher each ride) and see if you just get in shape?

    What trail system are we talking about here? If there is good stuff but further from your house, can you drive to the trailhead and bike from there? I think you'll have a much better experience in the end.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Why does everything have to easy?
    Why does that matter? I think everyone here knows I'm not exactly pro-ebike but I don't think it's anybody's business how hard someone else works on a ride.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Why does that matter? I think everyone here knows I'm not exactly pro-ebike but I don't think it's anybody's business how hard someone else works on a ride.



    Why do you care about what I care about? And it matters because I wind up having to share trails with effin motorbikes which in my mind trumps anything anyone else thinks about it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    because I wind up having to share trails with effin motorbikes which in my mind trumps anything anyone else thinks about it.
    Sounds like your riding on the wrong trails if there's motorbikes on them......Maybe stick to designated mountain bike trails and leave the motox boys alone eh!!! Someone please give this man a mountain bike trail map....

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Why do you care about what I care about? And it matters because I wind up having to share trails with effin motorbikes which in my mind trumps anything anyone else thinks about it.

    Ha ha, seriously? Never seen you comment on someone else's opinion...............

    My point is that the "it isn't hard enough" argument is lame and should have nothing to do with whether you're for or against e-bikes. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a leisurely ride when I prefer a sufferfest. A single speeder might think you're a wuss for using gears or suspension but if they're polite they'll keep it to themselves.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Ha ha, seriously? Never seen you comment on someone else's opinion...............

    My point is that the "it isn't hard enough" argument is lame and should have nothing to do with whether you're for or against e-bikes. I wouldn't fault someone for taking a leisurely ride when I prefer a sufferfest. A single speeder might think you're a wuss for using gears or suspension but if they're polite they'll keep it to themselves.

    If they're legal then it's personal choice.
    Sensible post there JB, and your 100% correct, its each to their own if they are abiding by the restrictions in place for where they are riding. One of the largest mountain bike races in NZ is held near where I live, a couple of guys enter and compete on a unicycles. There's no complaints that he's not on the MTB, everyone embraces the fact that their out there enjoying what they are doing.

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Why does everything have to easy?
    The same reason that every kid gets a trophy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Sounds like your riding on the wrong trails if there's motorbikes on them......Maybe stick to designated mountain bike trails and leave the motox boys alone eh!!! Someone please give this man a mountain bike trail map....
    On a side note I have noticed that the trails that have rocks on them get pulverized by motorcycles and dirtbikes, to the 'point' that the crushed rocks can get really sharp and slice open a mountain bike tire easily. I really do not like riding on a rocky trail that a dirtbike has recently been on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    The same reason that every kid gets a trophy.
    I wonder how many students of the month end up working at a women's shoe store like Al Bundy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    will a 250W e-bike climb 1000 feet and 1.8 miles in 10 minutes
    Only the motor? No. You + the motor, yes but you will have to push hard.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I wonder how many students of the month end up working at a women's shoe store like Al Bundy.
    The really lucky ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Sounds like your riding on the wrong trails if there's motorbikes on them......Maybe stick to designated mountain bike trails and leave the motox boys alone eh!!! Someone please give this man a mountain bike trail map....



    Did it cross your mind that maybe Poachers are the ones on the wrong trails? Seeing more of them every month in the N.F.

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    Assuming the OP is talking about this area, as he has been in another thread where he has declared the trails impossible for anyone to handle on a SS. Pretty much wide open and non-technical, dunno about legality. Doesn't appear to even get near 2000' elevation, so no idea what the 'oxygen stamina' stuff is about.

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  21. #21
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    Videos like that make me realize how lucky I am. I was working on a section of trail today that is just nasty azz chunk with the goal of making it unridable for 90% of the population. Which makes me happy.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Assuming the OP is talking about this area, as he has been in another thread where he has declared the trails impossible for anyone to handle on a SS. Pretty much wide open and non-technical, dunno about legality. Doesn't appear to even get near 2000' elevation, so no idea what the 'oxygen stamina' stuff is about.

    I've just discovered this exclusive photo of OP, 2000' ft may indeed be high altitude for him:
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Videos like that make me realize how lucky I am. I was working on a section of trail today that is just nasty azz chunk with the goal of making it unridable for 90% of the population. Which makes me happy.
    It really is interesting what passes for trails in some places, isn't it?
    Does look like a perfect place for a very high powered e-bike though. Need something to help make it remotely interesting.

    San Diego is a whole lot different than Boston, that's for sure. This'll make you feel better Harry. We used to ride all this stuff back on late 90s hardtails.
    (Riding starts ~5:00 in)

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Assuming the OP is talking about this area, as he has been in another thread where he has declared the trails impossible for anyone to handle on a SS. Pretty much wide open and non-technical, dunno about legality. Doesn't appear to even get near 2000' elevation, so no idea what the 'oxygen stamina' stuff is about.

    Slap Head you are from SD? The trail area of Sweetwater Reservior is very spread out and the access points are very different from each other in proximity. As the crow flies they are maybe 5 miles apart but driving to each parking lot is more like 20 min and biking from one end to the other is a whole hour because of the mountain, fencing, etc. So it "looks" like one area on the map but it's not.

    The SW part of this area off I-125 (I've never parked there) is flatter and I'm sure single speeds would do OK there. When you start approaching the SE end of the reservoir it gets steeper and there are few trails someone can just bike up all the way. They would for sure need the right gears and beefy back tire. I have a 30t on the largest cog and I simply cannot bike up them w/o walking the bike up around 2/3 of the incline. 42-46t would do it a lot better.

    Most of the pictures and writings about the Sweetwater area are on the I-125 Bonita end and while that area may be fun, again it's not the same as the SE reservoir area between the reservoir and the mountain. Most people access this side from I-94, just across from the shopping mall and movie theater by the old bridge. When I first biked from there, I didn't get to the good trail system I'm describing on the SE side of the lake. I thought "This is a boring overrated trail, it's nothing". Well I thought that because I didn't bike enough through that boring section to get to the good trails lol. This is WHY I'd like an e-bike to get to the good stuff faster. I wish I had all day to bike. I don't.

    On another thread I posted about gearing being so important on certain hills; a few months ago there was a group of 10 guys on the other side of the Sweetwater river that I was watching as I went in the same direction (I was on gravel), some of them had very short gearing and some didn't. Two inclines for them on the way back to the parking lot, one steep and short, one moderate and long. By the time the short-geared bikes got to the top of the 2nd long incline there was a huge separation between the short-geared bikes and the more run of the mill 11-34t stuff I imagine the slow pokes had. When I go on the same inclines I walk the bike up the steep one and slowly ride up the long incline on 30t, at the same speed that the slow pokes did. It's not about fitness it's about gearing. That is NOT bashing fitness. I now have beefier arms w/o lifting any weights. My wife is like WTF how did you do that, well it's biking and also walking 35-40 lb bikes up hills. Fitness is great, but if it can't get a 30t bike up the hill, how is it going to get a single speed up the hill? You can't just wave a magic wand at the back tire and say "Hocus Pocus, please don't slip and stop on the loose dirt and pebbles". If and when I see a single speed in this area I'll let you know how it did.

    I am not bashing single speeds, although I'm sure I would never get one. Where I go is very steep, including Santee/Poway in Bader's/Sycamore Canyon and XC gears there are not enough up the hills, plain and simple. In North Santee I'll be lucky to only walk the bike 5-10 min out of a 90-120 minute ride. A lot of times I walk the bike up for 15-40 minutes on some of the 600-800 foot hills. I could not even imagine a single speed doing that up loose dirt and big rocks. During that time it's not riding it's hiking with a bike. A single speed is a workout, but walking a bike up a steep hill is too, it's just not as glamorous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    Only the motor? No. You + the motor, yes but you will have to push hard.
    Wow a reply to the original question, thank you for the answer. I had no idea this thread would turn into the Attention Deficit Disorder forum lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    It really is interesting what passes for trails in some places, isn't it?
    Does look like a perfect place for a very high powered e-bike though. Need something to help make it remotely interesting.

    San Diego is a whole lot different than Boston, that's for sure. This'll make you feel better Harry. We used to ride all this stuff back on late 90s hardtails.
    (Riding starts ~5:00 in)

    Yeah, its a section of big rocky step ups at 10K ft and @ 8 miles in like in the beginning of the vid, it'll be a challenge to clear the whole thing. I'm not bashing the OP's trails, you can only work with what you've got, those look like they'd be fun on a gravel bike.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    It's not about fitness it's about gearing.
    Gearing is a factor for sure but fitness is always more important, for a bicycle anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Slap Head you are from SD? The trail area of Sweetwater Reservior is very spread out and the access points are very different from each other in proximity. As the crow flies they are maybe 5 miles apart but driving to each parking lot is more like 20 min and biking from one end to the other is a whole hour because of the mountain, fencing, etc. So it "looks" like one area on the map but it's not.

    The SW part of this area off I-125 (I've never parked there) is flatter and I'm sure single speeds would do OK there. When you start approaching the SE end of the reservoir it gets steeper and there are few trails someone can just bike up all the way. They would for sure need the right gears and beefy back tire. I have a 30t on the largest cog and I simply cannot bike up them w/o walking the bike up around 2/3 of the incline. 42-46t would do it a lot better.

    Most of the pictures and writings about the Sweetwater area are on the I-125 Bonita end and while that area may be fun, again it's not the same as the SE reservoir area between the reservoir and the mountain. Most people access this side from I-94, just across from the shopping mall and movie theater by the old bridge. When I first biked from there, I didn't get to the good trail system I'm describing on the SE side of the lake. I thought "This is a boring overrated trail, it's nothing". Well I thought that because I didn't bike enough through that boring section to get to the good trails lol. This is WHY I'd like an e-bike to get to the good stuff faster. I wish I had all day to bike. I don't.

    On another thread I posted about gearing being so important on certain hills; a few months ago there was a group of 10 guys on the other side of the Sweetwater river that I was watching as I went in the same direction (I was on gravel), some of them had very short gearing and some didn't. Two inclines for them on the way back to the parking lot, one steep and short, one moderate and long. By the time the short-geared bikes got to the top of the 2nd long incline there was a huge separation between the short-geared bikes and the more run of the mill 11-34t stuff I imagine the slow pokes had. When I go on the same inclines I walk the bike up the steep one and slowly ride up the long incline on 30t, at the same speed that the slow pokes did. It's not about fitness it's about gearing. That is NOT bashing fitness. I now have beefier arms w/o lifting any weights. My wife is like WTF how did you do that, well it's biking and also walking 35-40 lb bikes up hills. Fitness is great, but if it can't get a 30t bike up the hill, how is it going to get a single speed up the hill? You can't just wave a magic wand at the back tire and say "Hocus Pocus, please don't slip and stop on the loose dirt and pebbles". If and when I see a single speed in this area I'll let you know how it did.

    I am not bashing single speeds, although I'm sure I would never get one. Where I go is very steep, including Santee/Poway in Bader's/Sycamore Canyon and XC gears there are not enough up the hills, plain and simple. In North Santee I'll be lucky to only walk the bike 5-10 min out of a 90-120 minute ride. A lot of times I walk the bike up for 15-40 minutes on some of the 600-800 foot hills. I could not even imagine a single speed doing that up loose dirt and big rocks. During that time it's not riding it's hiking with a bike. A single speed is a workout, but walking a bike up a steep hill is too, it's just not as glamorous.

    It is both about fitness and gearing. You would be amazed at what one can climb on a SS. Most geared riders get to the bottom of the climb and instantly shift into their bailout gear and lightly spin/grind up the climb. Once it gets too hard, your mind tells you to stop, so you stop and walk. However, if you push through that, you will find that your body can tolerate so much more than you think. Yes, it does take time and effort. No, you are not gonna get instant gratification of cleaning all the climbs.

    While I'm not down in the San Diego area, I am up in OC....and there are plenty of long and steep climbs available that we regularly ride on the SS's.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    ...snip.....
    You are simply applying your own limitations to everyone else.
    You also don't really understand gearing very well.

    What gear have you assumed every SS rider is running?
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    First off, let me say, and this is not kissing butt, that e-bikes seem like the coolest thing I've ever heard of. I don't have one yet. I will get one for sure later. I know a lot of people in different forums bash them, that's OK, don't worry about it. I don't think they would bash what I'm trying to do too much, and that's to get to remote stuff that would take hours for accessing on a 100% pedal bike.

    I will not tell you what two bikes I'm looking at because I already know you will want me to get the more expensive one. What I'm asking is that if there is a long 1.8 mile incline, 1000 feet at the top (around 10.5% incline), then is 250W ok or do I need to get a 500W bike? The 250W bike is 58 lbs and the 500W one is 48 lbs, I am around 145 lbs. Several people on here have said that 250W sucks. OK, but can it go up a 10% incline for 2 miles, if the amps are in theory 7.0 and the volts are 36? That's all I need to know because that's all I need, period. If I don't need the 500W one, then no point in getting it.

    The reason I ask is because there are two sets of hill/mountain trails across the road from where I live. Pedaling takes around 45 minutes just to get to the first set of trails, which are great, but that's 2+ hours of riding total just to get to the 1st set, ride them, and then pedal back home. I wish I had all day to bike but working 60-70 hrs/week means I don't. That's where the e-bike comes in. I could then easily get to the 2nd set of trails further up the 2000 foot mountain and do those trails. If I had to I could pedal everything except the 1.8 mile 10% incline up to the 2nd set of trails. If I had extra juice left I could use that on the way back on the gravel road at the bottom of the mountain. So is 250W, 36V, 7A enough for 9000 feet on a 10% incline? Would the motor need a break or two due to overheating?
    I can give you a good technical answer but first you need to specify if you're looking at bikes with hub motors or mid-drive models. And if hub motors are they designed for speed or for climbing? If mid-drive what sort of gearing? Standard derailleur set-up? (chain ring and cassette, sprocket sizes?) Or if IGH what models?

    And then what's probably even more important is battery capacity; regardless of how many watts the motor is rated for or what the system voltage is---how many watt-hours is the battery rated at?
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You are simply applying your own limitations to everyone else.
    You also don't really understand gearing very well.

    What gear have you assumed every SS rider is running?
    I'm applying the laws of physics to rear tire torque in loose dirt up a hill. You can bend the laws of physics but you can't break them. BTW I met a single-speed rider who does do the 1000 foot mountain, unfortunately he didn't say if he walked the bike up or not, the mystery continues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    I can give you a good technical answer but first you need to specify if you're looking at bikes with hub motors or mid-drive models. And if hub motors are they designed for speed or for climbing? If mid-drive what sort of gearing? Standard derailleur set-up? (chain ring and cassette, sprocket sizes?) Or if IGH what models?

    And then what's probably even more important is battery capacity; regardless of how many watts the motor is rated for or what the system voltage is---how many watt-hours is the battery rated at?
    Both are rear-wheel drive models, one is 2-option power and one is 3-option power. I'm not sure about the watt-hours but one is rated for 15 miles pedelec and one 20 miles just on electric power alone. One as you can imagine is 3x as expensive as the other. Ancheer 26" $600 vs. Luna AT Hardtail $1800. Of course the Luna is better. The question is can the Ancheer with 250V do 1000 feet up a hill. I don't need to blow everyone away, just get up the hill to the good stuff without being an overprincipled machochist about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    BTW I met a single-speed rider who does do the 1000 foot mountain, unfortunately he didn't say if he walked the bike up or not, the mystery continues.
    It's only a mystery to one person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Both are rear-wheel drive models, one is 2-option power and one is 3-option power. I'm not sure about the watt-hours but one is rated for 15 miles pedelec and one 20 miles just on electric power alone. One as you can imagine is 3x as expensive as the other. Ancheer 26" $600 vs. Luna AT Hardtail $1800. Of course the Luna is better. The question is can the Ancheer with 250V do 1000 feet up a hill. I don't need to blow everyone away, just get up the hill to the good stuff without being an overprincipled machochist about it.
    Rear wheel drive wasn't really the point; it's whether or not it's a hub motor or mid-drive. The Ancheer has a hub motor with built-in gear reduction and the Luna is most likely a mid-drive (couldn't find a "Luna AT Hardtail" at their website). Sort of an apples and oranges thing; hard to compare.

    That Ancheer is a really great value but not sure you'd get good service from it in the hills. There's a dude in Vegas that's reviewed it to death on YouTube:



    The Luna is probably a much better bet as you can take advantage of the gearing via derailleur to climb at the most efficient speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Both are rear-wheel drive models, one is 2-option power and one is 3-option power. I'm not sure about the watt-hours but one is rated for 15 miles pedelec and one 20 miles just on electric power alone. One as you can imagine is 3x as expensive as the other. Ancheer 26" $600 vs. Luna AT Hardtail $1800. Of course the Luna is better. The question is can the Ancheer with 250V do 1000 feet up a hill. I don't need to blow everyone away, just get up the hill to the good stuff without being an overprincipled machochist about it.
    If you enjoy walking home, you should get the ancheer, with the "high carbon aluminum frame" and front fork mounted backwards. It just screams quality.

    Ancheer Black Electric Mountain Bicycle Ebike Lithium 250W LED headlamp | eBay

    You'd have to disable the throttle on the Luna to make it legal, btw.

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    Luna stuff FWIW:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    You'd have to disable the throttle on the Luna to make it legal, btw.
    Actually the Luna could be legal in CA as a Class 2.

    The throttle is the least of compliance issues with what Luna is selling; just about everything can be ordered with an "upgrade" wink wink nudge nudge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Actually the Luna could be legal in CA as a Class 2.

    The throttle is the least of compliance issues with what Luna is selling; just about everything can be ordered with an "upgrade" wink wink nudge nudge.
    Yeah, I meant on singletrack, it seems most are limited to class1.

    Umhm, for "private property use only", since so many have our own trail systems at our disposal.

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    Luna has the BBS02 with a 48V battery for $750 now. You would be better off buying that kit and installing it on a $200 Craigslist hardtail or your own bike if you have one. They will set the controller to your specs, but normally it's at 25 amps, so 1000+w system. If they can reduce that to 15 amps, it should be legal. It runs fine without the throttle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Rear wheel drive wasn't really the point; it's whether or not it's a hub motor or mid-drive. The Ancheer has a hub motor with built-in gear reduction and the Luna is most likely a mid-drive (couldn't find a "Luna AT Hardtail" at their website). Sort of an apples and oranges thing; hard to compare.

    That Ancheer is a really great value but not sure you'd get good service from it in the hills. There's a dude in Vegas that's reviewed it to death on YouTube:



    The Luna is probably a much better bet as you can take advantage of the gearing via derailleur to climb at the most efficient speed.
    Sorry it was "Alite" and not AT, and one of the pictures shows mid-motor

    Luna Alite Hard Tail
    4 product reviews
    For more information click on one of the below links

    KHS 2017 Alite Hard Tail
    Luna Designed Aluminum 44T Chainring
    Full Color Dashboard gives you all your vital stats
    48v Panasonic GA Shark 13.5ah 648 watt hours
    21 Piece Luna Ebike Tool Kit
    Luna Thin Bell
    Luna Mini Advanced Charger
    Professional assembly
    90 day limited warranty with extended warranty available
    Sold for off road use only


    13.5 ah seems really good. BTW the Ancheer video was a great posting, I didn't watch the whole thing but I listened to it all. Too bad he didn't go up singletracks instead of dirt roads, but that's OK. Good advice about thick Kevlar tires with high PSI. And his problems after 2000 miles are not bad at all for a cheaper bike. All bikes under say $750 are going to have similar problems, e-bike or not. Of course there will be cheaper parts on a cheaper bike but his experience overall was a lot better than I expected. Again, he's doing uphill dirt roads, not uphill singletrack so much, the bike should really go up dirt roads and it DOES. Much of those problems, like wrong Presta valve length, chainring pedal guard breaking, all of that has happened with at least one of my previous bikes, and they were not e-bikes. Cheap is cheap no matter what kind of bike. You can read all you want about biking but sometimes you just have to get out there, stuff ends up breaking, and you learn from it on the fly.

    This video did not scare me away from Ancheer. The guy talks about getting a new bike with more power, OK, totally understandable, but you don't need a new bike for hydraulic brakes. I'm not mechanically inclined and I did $110 pre-bled hydraulic upgrades in the garage, no instructions, they work fine. And a new seat is $20. If you are on a budget you buy the Ancheer and put another $200 or so into parts and tires and it looks good to go. It never broke down according to the video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    If you enjoy walking home, you should get the ancheer, with the "high carbon aluminum frame" and front fork mounted backwards. It just screams quality.

    Ancheer Black Electric Mountain Bicycle Ebike Lithium 250W LED headlamp | eBay

    You'd have to disable the throttle on the Luna to make it legal, btw.
    LOL that's just Chinese manufacturer translations on Amazon. I would not want a carbon-fiber e-bike anyway, that's asking for trouble if the frame crashes badly. And reversed front forks are common for big box bikes, you just bolt on the handlebars, and turn the handlebars around to the front before mounting the front tire. For better or worse I've become quite knowledgeable about cheap bikes...

    BTW most of the Chinese distributor/manufacturer answers to questions are pretty honest, they realize that Westerners do want a real correctly ordered product and they will explain the product right when they find out their English translation (or sloppiness) is wrong. For example, there is a distributor named Whool on Amazon, they have a bunch of different MTB wheels for sale, and they copied and pasted 26" wheels in most of their advertisements. But the title says 27.5" wheels. I asked them is this really a 27.5" wheel because it says 26" twice in the underlying description. They replied yes it's a 27.5" wheel, they will change the description to take out any 26" reference. This happens all the time with Chinese-sourced MTB parts (and other non-MTB parts). It's no big deal if you verify with them it's the right product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Luna has the BBS02 with a 48V battery for $750 now. You would be better off buying that kit and installing it on a $200 Craigslist hardtail or your own bike if you have one. They will set the controller to your specs, but normally it's at 25 amps, so 1000+w system. If they can reduce that to 15 amps, it should be legal. It runs fine without the throttle.
    I thought about that. On paper the Luna kit upgrade for $700 on cheap bike you already have makes 100x more sense than a $650 Ancheer bike, IF you have the proper mechanical inclination and tools. Otherwise it's LBS time to see if they will even help with the conversion. I have a 26" ready and willing to take a conversion. IT WOULD BE SO FREAKING COOL TO DO, no exaggeration, it would really be exciting to explore remote trails and dirt roads that would take hours and hours to do on human power.

    Question: if I right now have a 3x7 drivetrain, will it go down to a 1x7 drivetrain IF the electric power is on, in other words does a a mid- or rear-drive motor have to stay in a certain front chainring during operation? Any other drivetrain changes to the bike during the conversion? What technical problems will I expect to run into if I did the conversion myself? Put yourself in someone's shoes that can put on tires and brakes, tune the derailleurs 'good enough' but not much else. I could not even put on new shifters or get a bolt-axle freewheel off in the last month. So with that mediocre level of inclination, is it out of the question I try the conversion myself or should I be able to do it w/o LBS help?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I thought about that. On paper the Luna kit upgrade for $700 on cheap bike you already have makes 100x more sense than a $650 Ancheer bike, IF you have the proper mechanical inclination and tools. Otherwise it's LBS time to see if they will even help with the conversion. I have a 26" ready and willing to take a conversion. IT WOULD BE SO FREAKING COOL TO DO, no exaggeration, it would really be exciting to explore remote trails and dirt roads that would take hours and hours to do on human power.

    Question: if I right now have a 3x7 drivetrain, will it go down to a 1x7 drivetrain IF the electric power is on, in other words does a a mid- or rear-drive motor have to stay in a certain front chainring during operation? Any other drivetrain changes to the bike during the conversion? What technical problems will I expect to run into if I did the conversion myself? Put yourself in someone's shoes that can put on tires and brakes, tune the derailleurs 'good enough' but not much else. I could not even put on new shifters or get a bolt-axle freewheel off in the last month. So with that mediocre level of inclination, is it out of the question I try the conversion myself or should I be able to do it w/o LBS help?
    Not sure about your question RE "1x7 ... certain front chain ring"?

    Luna sells the tools you'll need; but they are also readily available in the bicycle marketplace. At the very least you'll need the tool to remove whatever type of bottom bracket you may have. A chainbreaker may be good if you need to alter the chain length. A wrench to fit the pedals is good too. Eventually you may need a crank arm puller (but not for assembly).

    Be forewarned that Luna's kits come with very little in the way of assembly instructions and although everything you'll need to know is linked on their site it's not always easy to find. Lots of video how-to's. Chatting with their techs is usually fruitful unless you have an unusual problem.
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    Chart of e-bike legality in California

    For all of the moderators and other viewers from California about the rules, I have not verified this 100%, but this is from the www.sdebike.com webpage:What E-bike should I get for 10% inclines up to around 1000 feet high-cae-bikeinfographic.jpg

    In particular, Class 3 e-bikes are allowed on EVERY path except class I bike paths. If someone has any legal contradiction to this chart, please let me know.

    On a different note, all three LBS shops I called, including this one above, said an emphatic NO about doing the conversion. One mentioned they quoted $200 for the labor on the conversion and spent $400-600 in labor-hours actually doing the conversion. Maybe this is a project for my idiot savant genius stepson...

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    For all of the moderators and other viewers from California about the rules, I have not verified this 100%, but this is from the www.sdebike.com webpage:Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CAE-BikeInfographic.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	75.0 KB 
ID:	1152294

    In particular, Class 3 e-bikes are allowed on EVERY path except class I bike paths. If someone has any legal contradiction to this chart, please let me know.
    Your chart specifies where Class 3 ebikes are allowed, which is class 2-4 bike lanes and routes, which are defined here:

    http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist1/d1projec..._explained.pdf

    If you want more detailed info on where you can ride ebikes in CA, and emtbs in particular, you could wade through this thead:

    Where you can & cannot legally ride E-mtbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Your chart specifies where Class 3 ebikes are allowed, which is class 2-4 bike lanes and routes, which are defined here:

    http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist1/d1projec..._explained.pdf

    If you want more detailed info on where you can ride ebikes in CA, and emtbs in particular, you could wade through this thead:

    Where you can & cannot legally ride E-mtbs
    So uh, that now leads me to believe that actual dirt road and dirt trail biking is 100 times more complicated for e-bike legality, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    So uh, that now leads me to believe that actual dirt road and dirt trail biking is 100 times more complicated for e-bike legality, correct?



    At least 100 times.
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    I see now. Class I and II bikes as of 2015 can go anywhere a normal bike can go, that's why the earlier post below said keep the amps below 15 for the 20 mph max. velocity on the 100% electric assist mode. It's only the class III's that are banned on dirt roads and trails. Again, if this info. is incorrect let 'us' know. This is much simpler than I thought, and much simpler than the frigging conversion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    For all of the moderators and other viewers from California about the rules, I have not verified this 100%, but this is from the www.sdebike.com webpage:Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CAE-BikeInfographic.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	75.0 KB 
ID:	1152294

    In particular, Class 3 e-bikes are allowed on EVERY path except class I bike paths. If someone has any legal contradiction to this chart, please let me know.

    On a different note, all three LBS shops I called, including this one above, said an emphatic NO about doing the conversion. One mentioned they quoted $200 for the labor on the conversion and spent $400-600 in labor-hours actually doing the conversion. Maybe this is a project for my idiot savant genius stepson...
    That chart is correct but you misinterpret "EVERY path" in regards to Class 3 if by "path" you mean paths/trails that are not Class I. Class 3 are OK on street side bike lanes and roads with bike routes but otherwise are only allowed on paths on a case by case basis. (what the local jurisdiction decides)

    Of course bike shops are going to say "no" to DIY bikes, they want you to buy what e-bikes they might be selling plus they don't want the headache of trying to fix a DIY bike that the owner can't figure out.

    FWIW almost all of what Luna offers are in the moped class power-wise but probably wouldn't make state requirements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    So uh, that now leads me to believe that actual dirt road and dirt trail biking is 100 times more complicated for e-bike legality, correct?
    Not really, you can ride it on any dirt road open to motorized, just like any paved road. If you have a Class 1 bike in CA, it would be prudent to do your homework on where you want to ride it offroad, call your local park etc, but there seems to be plenty of motorized and non motorized trails that are legal for class 1. Class 2 seems to be a no go on non motorized, but I'm not sure about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I see now. Class I and II bikes as of 2015 can go anywhere a normal bike can go, that's why the earlier post below said keep the amps below 15 for the 20 mph max. velocity on the 100% electric assist mode. It's only the class III's that are banned on dirt roads and trails. Again, if this info. is incorrect let 'us' know. This is much simpler than I thought, and much simpler than the frigging conversion...
    To clarify, local jurusdiction trumps the state laws and most or all parks or land managers that are allowing emtbs are only allowing Class 1, which is detailed in that thread I linked. MoePed would have better knowledge than I regarding if class 2 are allowed in any parks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    To clarify, local jurusdiction trumps the state laws and most or all parks or land managers that are allowing emtbs are only allowing Class 1, which is detailed in that thread I linked. MoePed would have better knowledge than I regarding if class 2 are allowed in any parks.
    The lawyers I've talked to say Class 2 are allowed on park/etc. trails covered by the CA Vehicle Code (State, County, City and etc.) and that allow regular bikes unless it is specifically posted "No Class 2 Electric Bicycles". Most entities don't have this wording figured out yet so if one can recite the statute verbatim they may be able to have their way in court/talk their way out of a ticket.

    The State Park I volunteer at a lot has nothing posted in writing as of yet but the verbal policy of the rangers is pedal sensing bikes are OK but hand throttles are not. In other words no Class 2. I don't believe anybody has been cited one way or another but the rangers would probably use 14 CCR 4355 lacking policy RE the newer law. They could also use 4360 which closes trails to all users except hikers. Pre-existing use is grandfathered but AB-1096 came after 4360 so likely wouldn't apply.
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    rich: I installed a BBS02 on a 26" hardtail. Here are the steps:
    1) Remove the pedals (usually a 15 mm wrench.
    2) Pull the crank and bottom bracket (you'll need a crank puller and bottom bracket removal tool. The bike shop will do this if you remember not to tell them it's for an e-conversion. All of the necessary tools are in a $40 kit from Performance Bike.
    3) Install the BBS02 which is pretty intuitive, on e-tube or ask Luna. You'll need a tool (Shimano or Luna) to cinch the lock nut - very tight. Also, it's important to have the mounting plate in the correct orientation.
    4) Put the battery in a triangle bag and hook everything up. The triangle bag is perfect for
    storing all the extra wires.

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    He's gonna have to science the shit out of this...

    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post

    snip....snip...

    What I'm asking is that if there is a long 1.8 mile incline, 1000 feet at the top (around 10.5% incline), then is 250W ok or do I need to get a 500W bike? The 250W bike is 58 lbs and the 500W one is 48 lbs, I am around 145 lbs. Several people on here have said that 250W sucks. OK, but can it go up a 10% incline for 2 miles, if the amps are in theory 7.0 and the volts are 36? That's all I need to know because that's all I need, period. If I don't need the 500W one, then no point in getting it.

    snip....snip...
    A bit late to the party, but thought the below might be helpful. A while ago I was looking for similar info; how much power do I need to get up a hill of x% gradient? I found a couple of interesting pieces. In particular this post. There's also a neat little calculator here that you can play with.

    In short, there is a rule of thumb you can use to give you an approximation of the power you need for steep climbs. You have already provided most of the info. The length of the climb doesn't really matter as far as power goes; battery capacity is what matters there.

    From the above link, the rule of thumb is:
    watts = gradient * speed (km/h) * 3 * weight (kg)

    Lets take an example with your 10% hill at say 10km/h with your weight as 92kg from above (145+58)*0.4535924:

    10% x 10kmh x 3 x 92kg = 276W

    Also keep in mind that your ebike may be rated at the motor - not at the cranks. Eg above, you mention 36V @ 7A. But no motor/drivetrain/terrain etc is 100% efficient, so if it was 80% efficient - which is not bad - your 250W motor is actually 200W at the crank.

    You can still make it up hills no matter whether its a lower power or higher powered ebike - and quicker than you can pedal alone - but you may have to put in some more effort yourself vs clown pedalling or throttle alone.

    hth
    db

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    rich: I installed a BBS02 on a 26" hardtail. Here are the steps:
    1) Remove the pedals (usually a 15 mm wrench.
    2) Pull the crank and bottom bracket (you'll need a crank puller and bottom bracket removal tool. The bike shop will do this if you remember not to tell them it's for an e-conversion. All of the necessary tools are in a $40 kit from Performance Bike.
    3) Install the BBS02 which is pretty intuitive, on e-tube or ask Luna. You'll need a tool (Shimano or Luna) to cinch the lock nut - very tight. Also, it's important to have the mounting plate in the correct orientation.
    4) Put the battery in a triangle bag and hook everything up. The triangle bag is perfect for
    storing all the extra wires.
    Are you serious. Luna has three separate instruction manuals for the installation. But I'll do it, it's just too much fun/adventure potential not to do it. Besides who needs two pedal bikes anyway.

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    Obviously I didn't mention every step, like you need to install the crankarms (very tightly) and pedals, but it's pretty easy. Any steps where you're stumped, ask and I'll help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Obviously I didn't mention every step, like you need to install the crankarms (very tightly) and pedals, but it's pretty easy. Any steps where you're stumped, ask and I'll help.
    OK thanks. This should not be as hard as learning how to use a deconvolution microscope at work. I never successfully learned it. $500,000 machine, in 4 parts taking up half a room, 35 steps with no instruction manual. I'm like, I've never done this before where is the protocol. None. Just foreign PhD's coming in and living with the machine until they learned it. After 3 weeks I went back to the other lab doing the usual mundane stuff. That would have been a great machine to get 3-D color images of antibodies binding to HIV viruses, oh well.

    I like detailed protocols to the point of being condescending. As in step 1 put on gloves. Step 2 open the toolbox. Step 3 get the right screwdriver. Boring, monotonous, but it's complete.

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    BTW, IMO you'll be better off if the bike you select has a 68 mm (wide) bottom bracket since that allows the cinch nut and lock nut to fit. Otherwise it's lock nut only with Locktite (AFAIK, they may have changed the system).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Not sure about your question RE "1x7 ... certain front chain ring"?
    What I mean is for mid-drive, there is only one chainring, so if you started with a 3x7 drivetrain you are down to a 1x7 drivetrain. That's kind of a bummer since I just got a new front derailleur put on lol. Maybe I'll drive the bike as is for another several months until the chain and freewheel wear out again, speaking of which...

    The back cogs are 14-28t right now is that going to be OK for hills? Luna's options are 44-52t in front; pretty large for a mountain bike chainring, the largest one I currently have on is 42t. I don't need to go 35 mph, just climb hills so I assume I get the 44t chainring option, and then for the freewheel get a 30t or 34t next time. By that time maybe I'll swap the back out anyway for an 8-speed wheel/hub and cassette; the more I bike the more I have begun to slowly dislike freewheel systems. Shimano has an 11-34t 8-speed cassette. They also have an 8-speed freewheel but I heard they suck in some ways and put a lot of pressure on the rear axle, not to mention take up too much space on it for the right frame dropout, so maybe a whole new wheel and freehub is the way to go anyway. 3x8 is way less maintenance than 3x7. And 1x8 even less maintenance, hopefully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    The back cogs are 14-28t right now is that going to be OK for hills? Luna's options are 44-52t in front; pretty large for a mountain bike chainring, the largest one I currently have on is 42t.
    Depends how many watts you have on hand, you'll need plenty with that gearing.

    Is this the bike you're planning to use to access remote backcountry areas? That freewheel hub is guaranteed to fail and you'll be pushing that rig out with the coyotes nipping at your heals. Even good freewheel hubs aren't designed to handle heavy loads and off road use (except 5 and compact 6 sp) and there is no such thing as a quality freewheel hub anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    . 3x8 is way less maintenance than 3x7.
    No, it's not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    No, it's not.
    It's all starting to make sense....3x7 / 3x8....no wonder they want a bike with a motor, running cheap bikes with outdated drivetrains with limited gearing. Try a new 2x11 or 1x12 drivetrain and maybe they'd be more likely to forego the motor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    It's all starting to make sense....3x7 / 3x8....no wonder they want a bike with a motor, running cheap bikes with outdated drivetrains with limited gearing. Try a new 2x11 or 1x12 drivetrain and maybe they'd be more likely to forego the motor.
    The old 3x drivetrains have plenty of range; more than most new ones actually. Run some set-ups through a gear-inch calc and see.

    3 x 8 with 22-32-44 x 11-34 versus 30 x 11-46.

    Old - min 0.61 max 3.8
    New - min 0.65 max 2.73
    (for 26")

    Lower low and a higher high with the old system.
    Blaming lack of skill and fitness on number of gears and thinking shopping will change things doesn't get anyone up hills.

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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    The old 3x drivetrains have plenty of range; more than most new ones actually. Run some set-ups through a gear-inch calc and see.

    3 x 8 with 22-32-44 x 11-34 versus 30 x 11-46.

    Old - min 0.61 max 3.8
    New - min 0.65 max 2.73
    (for 26")

    Lower low and a higher high with the old system.
    Blaming lack of skill and fitness on number of gears and thinking shopping will change things doesn't get anyone up hills.

    Funny how that works, isn't it?

    Yesterday, I was riding with a friend who was on a SWEET 2016 Rocky Mountain 27.5 1x11 (running 32:12-42). I was on my '01 Homegrown hard tail 26 1x1. He was pointing out an "unrideable" uphill rocky section and was saying how he needed more gear. I cleaned it with a 32:18 and he walked it.

    It's not the gear, it's the attitude.
    Let's kick ass!

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Funny how that works, isn't it?

    Yesterday, I was riding with a friend who was on a SWEET 2016 Rocky Mountain 27.5 1x11 (running 32:12-42). I was on my '01 Homegrown hard tail 26 1x1. He was pointing out an "unrideable" uphill rocky section and was saying how he needed more gear. I cleaned it with a 32:18 and he walked it.

    It's not the gear, it's the attitude.
    I ride with fast guys on singlespeeds regularly and no matter how many gears you add to my bike, I simply ain't keeping up. One thing a lot of years riding with a lot of different people teaches you is exactly what you say: fitness, skill and attitude determines 90+ percent of what's possible.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Obviously I didn't mention every step, like you need to install the crankarms (very tightly) and pedals, but it's pretty easy. Any steps where you're stumped, ask and I'll help.
    Well I hope you are not disappointed, and I have changed my mind like 10 times about this, but after reading:

    Advantages of Electric Bike Mid-Drive Motor Vs. Hub Motor

    I've decided the front hub option looks best. Best for my situation, not for everyone's situation. Why?

    First, because I want to keep my gears, 'crappy' as they are. To me if you take away the lower-sproket chainrings and keep the largest one, you don't really have a mountain bike anymore. If you have a 1x11 setup and excellent cog tooth spread then that's fine but a 1x7 with a maximum spread of either 11-30t or 14-34t just doesn't sound very appetizing if you are not using a lot of electric power. You are essentially crippling the bike and turning it into a hybrid asphalt road/flat surface dirt road bike if the electric power is not on. Mid-drive and rear-wheel are both going to dramatically rob the bike of its lower climbing power w/o electricity. I'm not out to do 20% pedal 80% throttle, it's the other way around. I want to keep it a mountain bike and time permitting pedal it as much as possible, including small inclines w/o any electric power. That's not going to be easy without the smallest 22t chainring in front.

    Second, Luna sells a front kit for around $429 that is disk-brake compatible (very important) less than 10 lbs!!!, and another company sells a $25 hub torque bracers to help protect the front dropouts from too much torque. The front-drive option, not only preserving all gears and chainrings, also is much easier to remove compared with a rear-drive setup. In fact you can even take off the battery, swap out the electric hub for a standard 26" wheel, and turn it right back to a regular mountain bike if you wanted. You can switch back and forth for whatever reason, and it doesn't seem too technically demanding to attach some wires from the front wheel to the battery and handlebar controller.

    I've read that front-hub motors bog down up long climbs. OK...so I have to pedal some, no big deal. Again the electric is for maybe 20% of the entire ride time-wise (maybe 30-40% by distance). I don't mind pedaling! I just want to do 20-25 miles in two hours instead of 3+ hours. Comments and criticism of the above welcome...

  66. #66
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    I wouldn't want to add 10lbs to my front end, that would be a disaster on a mtb. For just cruising around on a road, bike path or even a smooth trail, it would be fine.

  67. #67
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    Adding 10 lbs to your front wheel is going to suck, big time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I wouldn't want to add 10lbs to my front end, that would be a disaster on a mtb. For just cruising around on a road, bike path or even a smooth trail, it would be fine.
    I guess you are not a fan of 45-50 lb steel bikes then (neither am I). If I start with 33 lbs and add 17 lbs of motor and battery, 50 lbs total is not that bad for an e-bike. Assuming equal weight distribution originally, then 20 lbs front, 19 lbs mid, 11 lbs rear plus a rack and duffel bag w/water = 6 lbs so 17 lbs rear in reality. That's not a bad balance, not optimal but not horrible. That Luna Alite Hardtail mid-motor is 48lbs although I assume it's weight distribution would be better. We'll see what happens.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I guess you are not a fan of 45-50 lb steel bikes then (neither am I). If I start with 33 lbs and add 17 lbs of motor and battery, 50 lbs total is not that bad for an e-bike. Assuming equal weight distribution originally, then 20 lbs front, 19 lbs mid, 11 lbs rear plus a rack and duffel bag w/water = 6 lbs so 17 lbs rear in reality. That's not a bad balance, not optimal but not horrible. That Luna Alite Hardtail mid-motor is 48lbs although I assume it's weight distribution would be better. We'll see what happens.
    It's not really the overall weight, it's where you're putting it. Trying to bunny hop or manual a bike with a 10lb front hub motor will be a challenge.

  70. #70
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    Remember that the front hub is the one you steer with, you have to twist all that extra weight around side to side. I think you'd be better off using the money toward getting a better mountain bike. Sell the two you have plus the money for the motor.

    And btw, all 5 of my steel bikes weight way less than 33 lbs.
    "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -Douglas Adams.

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