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  1. #1
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    Poaching Penalties

    Wife and I were on our MTB's at a park near the beach since it was cooler there than other places. Encountered two policemen on e-MTB's patrolling and asked them what they do if they encounter scofflaws riding e-bikes. They just ask the offenders to leave the park which surprised me since there are stings at various times to catch individuals poaching trails or speeding and (I THINK) the fines are up to $1000 (this is ritzy Newport Beach, OC, CA). What I'm wondering is the penalties for riding e-bikes in other areas where they're prohibited. Anyone have information for them? BTW, if your answer is that you'll reproach, eviscerate, murder or apprehend the individuals, save your braggadocio for your parole officer, jailer or asylum therapist.

  2. #2
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    Bike forfeiture is not unheard of in some really egregious cases. Fines up to $1,000.00. Like everything else, expect penalties to be more aggressively levied as occurrences become more common and the constituency becomes more vocal about it.
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    I posted this in another thread a couple of weeks ago.

    Poaching Penalties-no_motors.jpg
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    Nice to see that they do allow for wheelchairs.

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    Good question, I'm assuming here it would fall under the motorized on non motorized ordinance, but I couldn't find anything, I"ll have to ask. Based on other park related fines, I'd guess $50, maybe $100 tops.

    They hurt you badly in Australia though.

    'Our trails aren't built for that': eBike riders risk fines in Canberra nature parks

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    Harry, thanks. I was surprised there wasn't a more definitive penalty structure in CA (don't know how that is established). The only individual I've met who was accosted by a Ranger on an e-MTB where prohibited was asked politely not to return with it, but allowed to complete his ride. Just wondering what other rules are in place, not some inane guess.

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    What I know about OC Parks....OC Parks generally prohibit what they refer to as "motorized vehicles" in many areas. Not sure if pedal-assist bikes are "motorized vehicles" as defined by OC Parks (haven't done the research). But as far as I can tell, e-bikes like Levos haven't raised concerns in OC Parks. I see a few at Santiago Oaks, Whiting Ranch and Laguna Coast just about each time I've been out riding at these parks in the past year or so.

    Nonetheless, if the OC Parks definition of "motorized vehicle" validly includes pedal assist bikes, then a violation of the "motorized vehicle" prohibition would a misdemeanor. Violations of misdemeanors in OC Parks can, in many instances, result in a fine of up to a $1000 fine and/or up to 6 months in jail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Encountered two policemen on e-MTB's patrolling and asked them what they do if they encounter scofflaws riding e-bikes.
    Interesting... Did you mean "scofflaws" in the sense that you were trying to understand what police would do to persons undertaking criminal acts while riding e-bikes?

  9. #9
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    We just brand them with a big "E" on their forehead.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    What I know about OC Parks....OC Parks generally prohibit what they refer to as "motorized vehicles" in many areas. Not sure if pedal-assist bikes are "motorized vehicles" as defined by OC Parks (haven't done the research). But as far as I can tell, e-bikes like Levos haven't raised concerns in OC Parks. I see a few at Santiago Oaks, Whiting Ranch and Laguna Coast just about each time I've been out riding at these parks in the past year or so.

    Nonetheless, if the OC Parks definition of "motorized vehicle" validly includes pedal assist bikes, then a violation of the "motorized vehicle" prohibition would a misdemeanor. Violations of misdemeanors in OC Parks can, in many instances, result in a fine of up to a $1000 fine and/or up to 6 months in jail.

    Yup....we have requested several times that the signers be changed to specifically state E-bikes Prohibited....the response is that they are motorized vehicles, thus the signs will not change.
    Last edited by mtnbikej; 06-27-2017 at 08:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    the response is that they are king yorizrd vehicles, thus the signs will not change.
    what on earth does that mean?
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    AG, sorry, should have just said "poachers". Your comment about the OC laws is interesting since AFAIK the superintendent of parks has stated no e-MTB's allowed, so the penalty could be pretty harsh. I know a couple of people with the wherewithal who are waiting to challenge the situation in court if they are fined or their vehicle confiscated. FYI there are a couple of bike paths in Irvine, where Class 1 & 2 bikes would be legal, with "no e-bikes" signs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    what on earth does that mean?
    Damn auto fill. Fixed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    Damn auto fill. Fixed.
    oh... gotcha... So the OC Parks are claiming even a class 1 is motorized... this is going to lead to a ton of confusion as more people purchase e-bikes that are designated by the state as Class 1 to not be classified as motorized when it comes to vehicle code, but ARE considered motorized when it comes to trails....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    oh... gotcha... So the OC Parks are claiming even a class 1 is motorized... this is going to lead to a ton of confusion as more people purchase e-bikes that are designated by the state as Class 1 to not be classified as motorized when it comes to vehicle code, but ARE considered motorized when it comes to trails....

    Each jurisdiction can set their own rules. OCParks is their own jurisdiction. Irregardless of what the vehicle code says, OCParks has decided that all bikes with motors are a no-go.

    I go back to the LBS's not warning buyers that they are not legal to ride in the parks.

    Hell, one I the LBS managers is regularly seen riding one in the county parks.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    Each jurisdiction can set their own rules. OCParks is their own jurisdiction. Irregardless of what the vehicle code says, OCParks has decided that all bikes with motors are a no-go.
    What I've seen in the County regulations is "no motorized vehicles." I have not seen the County regulations define that term. Nor have I seen County regulations or OC Parks documentation declare that "all bikes with motors are a no-go."

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    AG, sorry, should have just said "poachers". Your comment about the OC laws is interesting since AFAIK the superintendent of parks has stated no e-MTB's allowed, so the penalty could be pretty harsh.
    In writing? I'd like to see that! Honestly.

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    AG, heresay, although I've asked Rangers at a couple of local parks (Aliso & Irvine) and they say no e-MTB's on the trails except physically challenged. Maybe MTBJ can elucidate further. I don't think the Rangers redefined "motorized", but just decided to prohibit e-MTB's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    AG, heresay, although I've asked Rangers at a couple of local parks (Aliso & Irvine) and they say no e-MTB's on the trails except physically challenged.
    That that I presume. Folks who "think" they know the rules...and enforce accordingly.

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    LFB, that looks like a nebulous BS guess you reported. I requested actual rules and regulations.

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    AFAIK, each park has the authority to make and enforce their own rules. Accordingly, those two parks agree with what (I THINK) is the general rule. Also, an acquaintance was stopped at Aliso and asked not to return on an e-MTB. What is your basis for what you think the rules are?

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    Here are the Aliso and Woods Canyon Park Rules, as posted on their website:

    Consumption of intoxicants prohibited.
    Park only in designated areas.
    All fires are prohibited. Fire prevention must be the first concern of every visitor.
    No pets. (horses exempt)
    Park Subject to closure during rainy weather.
    A speed limit of 10 MPH enforced at all times.
    No Hunting allowed.
    No feeding the animals
    This wilderness area is characterized by certain inherent dangers. These dangers include mountain lions, rattlesnakes, poison oak, and rugged terrain.
    No fishing allowed.
    Minors (under 18 years) should be accompanied by an adult at all times.
    No smoking.
    Use of motorized vehicles and equipment is prohibited
    The park depends on visitors to protect all wildlife, vegetation, features, and improvements.
    MINORS SHOULD BE UNDER DIRECT ADULT SUPERVISION AT ALL TIMES.
    Possession or use of firearms or weapons is prohibited.
    Swimming or wading in creek or lake is prohibited.

    I don't know what a "motorized vehicle" is. Can't find a definition in the County regulations or the park regulations. But I certainly see nothing in the rules here that says "no emtbs" or "no pedal assist bikes."

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    Problem is, most park rangers don't know the changing rules, at least here in los penasquitos. I called to verify if e-bikes are allowed on this trial and the PR i spoke with doesn't know. He had to call his senior PR. And yes e-bikes class 1 are allowed on los penasquitos. ( this after i told a rider he can't ride his e-bike on LP the day before)

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    Here are the Aliso and Woods Canyon Park Rules, as posted on their website:

    Consumption of intoxicants prohibited.
    Park only in designated areas.
    All fires are prohibited. Fire prevention must be the first concern of every visitor.
    No pets. (horses exempt)
    Park Subject to closure during rainy weather.
    A speed limit of 10 MPH enforced at all times.
    No Hunting allowed.
    No feeding the animals
    This wilderness area is characterized by certain inherent dangers. These dangers include mountain lions, rattlesnakes, poison oak, and rugged terrain.
    No fishing allowed.
    Minors (under 18 years) should be accompanied by an adult at all times.
    No smoking.
    Use of motorized vehicles and equipment is prohibited
    The park depends on visitors to protect all wildlife, vegetation, features, and improvements.
    MINORS SHOULD BE UNDER DIRECT ADULT SUPERVISION AT ALL TIMES.
    Possession or use of firearms or weapons is prohibited.
    Swimming or wading in creek or lake is prohibited.

    I don't know what a "motorized vehicle" is. Can't find a definition in the County regulations or the park regulations. But I certainly see nothing in the rules here that says "no emtbs" or "no pedal assist bikes."
    Random thoughts:
    It would seem you can bring your horse, but you can't feed it.
    10mph seems really low for a speed limit for cycling.
    I would err on the side of caution riding an e-bike where it specifies no motor vehicles unless a specific exception is made.

  25. #25
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    Actually... I did some additional research turned up language in the Orange County codes relating to Parks and Recreational Areas:

    Sec. 2-5-29 (g) Unauthorized Motor Vehicles. No person shall operate an unauthorized motor vehicle: Four-wheel drive vehicle, motorcycle, motor bike, motor dirt bike, all-terrain vehicle, off highway vehicle or any other motorized vehicle within any County owned, managed, or controlled reserve area, habitat sensitive area, wilderness area, natural area, open space area, undeveloped area, beach front area, turf area, or within river beds, stream beds, creek beds, wash areas, wetland areas, or recreational area trails.

    Sec. 2-5-29 (n) Motorized Wheeled Conveyance Prohibited. No person shall operate or drive any electric or combustible motorized skateboard, scooter, dirt bike, mini bike, mini motor bike, mini motorcycle, go-kart, go-ped, mo-ped, all-terrain-vehicle, quad runner, dune buggy or any similar electric or combustible motorized wheeled conveyance in any park, beach or recreational area.

    So, I guess if one views a Levo or similar e-mtb as "mini-motorbike" or "mini-motorcycle" then one could argue they should be prohibited from park areas. I'd think not, however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    motorcycle, motor bike, motor dirt bike, all-terrain vehicle, off highway vehicle or any other motorized vehicle
    Depends on how they are defining the items listed there.... The terms "Motor Bike" and "any other motorized vehicle" could be applied to a Class 1 or Class 2 Electric Bicycle.... Did you find any verbiage about those terms being defined... they are sorta vague.... And they could be vague on purpose to give the Rangers the ability to use their own judgement and discernment on the matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    AG, heresay, although I've asked Rangers at a couple of local parks (Aliso & Irvine) and they say no e-MTB's on the trails except physically challenged. Maybe MTBJ can elucidate further. I don't think the Rangers redefined "motorized", but just decided to prohibit e-MTB's.

    Exactly....this is the information I was given from the Rangers. We did not go into detail. I was not looking for a small loophole to slip in through. We had the whole Class 1/2/3 discussion. At the end of the day, they are not allowing motorized bikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    And they could be vague on purpose to give the Rangers the ability to use their own judgement and discernment on the matter.
    While I get that is how it works in practice, according the County ordinances, the OC Parks Director is given discretion to interpret, not the individual rangers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Depends on how they are defining the items listed there.... The terms "Motor Bike" and "any other motorized vehicle" could be applied to a Class 1 or Class 2 Electric Bicycle.... Did you find any verbiage about those terms being defined... they are sorta vague.... And they could be vague on purpose to give the Rangers the ability to use their own judgement and discernment on the matter.

    OR......

    The Rangers/OC Parks view E-bikes as motor vehicles....regardless of what the vehicle code says....because, it is not a vehicle code issue. It is an access/rule issue. If the parks say say you dog has to be on a leash, arguing that a shock collar is a leash will end the same way, in a ticket if your dog isn't on leash.

    The parks are also tiptoeing on this because they are afraid of someone suing them for ADA Compliance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    The Rangers/OC Parks view E-bikes as motor vehicles....regardless of what the vehicle code says....because, it is not a vehicle code issue. It is an access/rule issue.
    I wasn't looking at the State Vehicle Code. I was quoting from the County Ordinances that govern OC Parks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Depends on how they are defining the items listed there.... The terms "Motor Bike" and "any other motorized vehicle" could be applied to a Class 1 or Class 2 Electric Bicycle.... Did you find any verbiage about those terms being defined... they are sorta vague.... And they could be vague on purpose to give the Rangers the ability to use their own judgement and discernment on the matter.
    No, I didn't find anything beyond what I quoted. You're right in that it "could be" applied to a class 1 or class 2 bike. But generally, when a list of examples is given within the ordinance, it serves indicates what the ordinance drafter was thinking about regulating. In this case, the examples are --what I would think -- are a different class of vehicle than an e-mtb. But I could be wrong.

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    It's hard to say if it applies, but with my experience dealing with various city, county, state parks depts and USFS, the time lag between policy changes to seeing changes in signage and updated websites can be very great. You'd think some of it would be updated in CA by now, since it's been @ 18 months since it passed, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. I'd expect there'd be a cohesive policy on the ground with the rangers, but it's probably not at the top of their list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post

    Sec. 2-5-29 (n) Motorized Wheeled Conveyance Prohibited. No person shall operate or drive any electric or combustible motorized skateboard, scooter, dirt bike, mini bike, mini motor bike, mini motorcycle, go-kart, go-ped, mo-ped, all-terrain-vehicle, quad runner, dune buggy or any similar electric or combustible motorized wheeled conveyance in any park, beach or recreational area.
    Ok so someone please explain to me why this isnt completely clear that e-bikes are allowed??? No disrespect but but this is very clear cut.

    "Electric or combustible motorized wheeled conveyance"

    Sorry but the fact that anyone thinks this doesn't include e-bikes obviously slept through grade school.

    A bicycle is a wheeled conveyance.

    An e-mtb has an electric motor which provides power to the rear wheels

    So if the regulations don't change to allow pedal assist electric motors, not even those are allowed by legal definition. Not something that can even be debated, get the same response from a judge.

    Is it really worth getting smacked with a fine because the sign doesnt say "you cannot ride turbo levos here"????

    I think pedal assist should be shown leniency but unless the park rangers tell you flat out (and talking about the supervisors, not the day to day grunts) then need to stay off. Otherwise its just making it harder to get access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Ok so someone please explain to me why this isnt completely clear that e-bikes are allowed??? No disrespect but but this is very clear cut.

    "Electric or combustible motorized wheeled conveyance"
    No disrespect at all. That portion of the clause reads "or any similar electric or combustible motorized wheeled conveyance." Standard legal interpretation would require that you look to the types of examples they've referenced. In this case, I'm not sure an e-mtb (at least in Levo or similar form) would be considered similar to a an electric or gas powered skateboard, scooter, dirt bike, mini-bike, go-kart, mo-ped, all-terrain vehicle, quad runner, dune buggy....so on and so on.

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    Well going the "similar" many of the examples are on 2 wheels with handlebars.

    One thing ive learned over my many years, "broad coverage" is done for a reason. Because of how quickly things change. So if it has an electric or combustion motor providing power to 1 or more wheels, its illegal unless specific section covering exceptions shows e-bikes (and what type) is specifically allowed.

    Even a Levo. Motor is directly attached to the chain that drives the wheel. But instead of handlebar control its pedal controlled. So its literally the exact same thing by any legal or dictionary definition. Until they post the except to pedal assist e-bikes.

    Im just looking at it from the legal side. Basically unless the Ranger is feeling generous, anyone caught doing it is going to risk a hefty ticket because their is no way around it. Trying to fight it just means more expenses since its a lost cause.

    I know from experience that trying to skate "broad coverage" wording gets a "are you really that dumb" look from a judge lol. Just a traffic ticket, well a couple of them. Ill leave it at that, but i was young and dumb then.

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    Nevermind.

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    Ya i agree depending. In this case its not lacking any info. Its specific but broad.

    Motorized wheeled conveyance

    Thats why you see signs that specify motorized wheel chairs being allowed. Because a specific exception was made. Why? Because its technically a "motorized wheeled conveyance" Without the exception specifically posted, users could be subject to all penalties just as a motorcycle would be if on the trail.

    Trying to skirt the system because its not specific enough hurts everyone. Its why blanket bans are starting to be seen. People trying to use that exact point that has you thinking. Though most have no issues with a Levo, in stock form its not going to cause any issuse, it opens the door for other types that cause huge problems.

    Call a lawyer if your really curious and read that section to them word for word. Pedal assist bikes have a motor, wheels and are a conveyance.

    Headache I get that. But like our discussion here, theyll be a handful of people that read this thread and see the "oh because it doesnt say ebikes specifically then they are ok" when its the opposite right now because e-bikes have an electric motor. That in turn screws up the efforts of those trying to get pedal assist bikes as an exception to the rules.

    Another example here is its very basically covered "No motorized vehicles allowed". I am yet to see a levo on the trail personally. The only demo including e-anything was a fat bike gathering that the park ok'd electric assist bikes. And everyone knows they have a motor so as of right now, not allowed. Not to say it hasnt happened just i havent seen it. Not even really a topic here as as long as rangers are ok with pedal assist, hell ya come ride (as long as its not some rich kid being ignorant about it). If its not pedal assist look out. They slap max fines for violators of the "no motorized" violations. Heard of one guy getting his gas conversion confiscated, judge refused to let him have it back, on top of the fines.

    Hopefully its not truly that harsh, but i wouldnt debate it myself, Id contact someone that has the answer or can give the OK (and get their name etc just in case). My favorite saying "Assumption is the mother of all f-ups". Remind myself of it daily too hehe.



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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post

    Call a lawyer if your really curious and read that section to them word for word. Pedal assist bikes have a motor, wheels and are a conveyance.
    I'm fortunate to know a lawyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    I'm fortunate to know a lawyer.
    z

    Not a good one.


    "Use of motorized vehicles and equipment is prohibited"

    Twist it however you want but your moped has a motor
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post

    Not a good one.
    Hmmm..I think I've heard that one before. I'm starting to think you might be right. Yes. You might be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Ya i agree depending. In this case its not lacking any info. Its specific but broad.

    Motorized wheeled conveyance

    Thats why you see signs that specify motorized wheel chairs being allowed. Because a specific exception was made. Why? Because its technically a "motorized wheeled conveyance" Without the exception specifically posted, users could be subject to all penalties just as a motorcycle would be if on the trail.

    Trying to skirt the system because its not specific enough hurts everyone. Its why blanket bans are starting to be seen. People trying to use that exact point that has you thinking. Though most have no issues with a Levo, in stock form its not going to cause any issuse, it opens the door for other types that cause huge problems.

    Call a lawyer if your really curious and read that section to them word for word. Pedal assist bikes have a motor, wheels and are a conveyance.

    Headache I get that. But like our discussion here, theyll be a handful of people that read this thread and see the "oh because it doesnt say ebikes specifically then they are ok" when its the opposite right now because e-bikes have an electric motor. That in turn screws up the efforts of those trying to get pedal assist bikes as an exception to the rules.

    Another example here is its very basically covered "No motorized vehicles allowed". I am yet to see a levo on the trail personally. The only demo including e-anything was a fat bike gathering that the park ok'd electric assist bikes. And everyone knows they have a motor so as of right now, not allowed. Not to say it hasnt happened just i havent seen it. Not even really a topic here as as long as rangers are ok with pedal assist, hell ya come ride (as long as its not some rich kid being ignorant about it). If its not pedal assist look out. They slap max fines for violators of the "no motorized" violations. Heard of one guy getting his gas conversion confiscated, judge refused to let him have it back, on top of the fines.

    Hopefully its not truly that harsh, but i wouldnt debate it myself, Id contact someone that has the answer or can give the OK (and get their name etc just in case). My favorite saying "Assumption is the mother of all f-ups". Remind myself of it daily too hehe.



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    While I disagree with your assessment generally, I agree with you that practically, it makes no sense to try to skirt the system. And I totally agree that it wouldn't be wise for most people on e-bikes to thinking everything is "ok" just because of what they read on a forum. And I think you're point on reaching out to someone who can answer or give the ok is right on.

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    I think this shows exactly why it makes more sense to draw the line between

    motor propelled | not motor propelled

    instead of:

    motor greater than 250W propelled | motor less than 250W propelled or not motor propelled

    Having said that, I'm still on the fence in regards to these on paved paths, like the photo I published above. I'm all for people using ebikes for basic transportation, I think we could really use that in the US. But on paths like I showed for recreation, if the price comes down on these and every kid gets one for Christmas, it's going to be a mess. So how would that be handled? "Must be 16 or older to ride ebike"? "No recreational ebike riding"? Or will this not be an issue?

    btw, AGarcia is a lawyer. (And I've already hammered him for that, no need to do so).
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I think this shows exactly why it makes more sense to draw the line between

    motor propelled | not motor propelled

    instead of:

    motor greater than 250W propelled | motor less than 250W propelled or not motor propelled
    And many would choose the second one as practically the things are much more close if you look at the overall performances and impacts.

    "Must be 16 or older to ride ebike"?
    In Switzerland it's 14 and from 14 to 16 years old a moped driver license for 250 W, 25 kph bikes is requirred.

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    As usual, this turned into an access issue when Information about penalties for poaching in specific areas was requested. Relative to bike paths in OC, Class 1 & 2 are permitted except where specifically prohibited. I've seen at least two places with signs depicting that. Poaching penalties is only theoretical at this point since there's no policing except in a few congested areas. One would need to try and get caught here. I can ride at least five places within a few miles of my house where the average number of bikes that I encounter ranges from 0 to 1 per ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    As usual, this turned into an access issue when Information about penalties for poaching in specific areas was requested. Relative to bike paths in OC, Class 1 & 2 are permitted except where specifically prohibited. I've seen at least two places with signs depicting that. Poaching penalties is only theoretical at this point since there's no policing except in a few congested areas. One would need to try and get caught here. I can ride at least five places within a few miles of my house where the average number of bikes that I encounter ranges from 0 to 1 per ride.



    Poaching is about access. Being obtuse about it doesn't help your agenda.

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    As I stated, I was interested in the penalties for e-bikes where they were prohibited not about poaching. Perhaps you should learn to read or maybe you just like to troll every thread with your garbage. Guess that's what the ignore function is for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    As I stated, I was interested in the penalties for e-bikes where they were prohibited not about poaching. Perhaps you should learn to read or maybe you just like to troll every thread with your garbage. Guess that's what the ignore function is for.
    Hmmm, unless I'm missing something, if I were to ride my mtb where it is not allowed I would call that poaching. Maybe you CA guys have a different meaning for the same word?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    As I stated, I was interested in the penalties for e-bikes where they were prohibited not about poaching. Perhaps you should learn to read or maybe you just like to troll every thread with your garbage. Guess that's what the ignore function is for.



    With the title of this thread, I would posit that you are responsible for the trolling. Irony defined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Hmmm, unless I'm missing something, if I were to ride my mtb where it is not allowed I would call that poaching. Maybe you CA guys have a different meaning for the same word?
    My initial comment stated that the interest wasn't poaching in general, but riding an e-bike where it's not allowed. Do you understand or should I be even more explicit? You're one who has stated many, many times, over and over that e-MTB's are prohibited in MA (AIR). Do you know what the penalty is if one is caught riding there, or is it like most areas seem to be - there's no policing so it's a moot point? (If there's anything else you don't understand, I'll try to break it down for you).

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    I'm at least partially at fault for derailing the thread. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    My initial comment stated that the interest wasn't poaching in general, but riding an e-bike where it's not allowed. Do you understand or should I be even more explicit? You're one who has stated many, many times, over and over that e-MTB's are prohibited in MA (AIR). Do you know what the penalty is if one is caught riding there, or is it like most areas seem to be - there's no policing so it's a moot point? (If there's anything else you don't understand, I'll try to break it down for you).
    Problem here is that what your asking and what your arguing against is the same thing:

    What are the penalties for trail poaching with e-bikes?

    If caught, possibility of same penalty as that of riding a dirt bike on said trail. Breaking the same law. Would it actually be that harsh, depends on if the bike is a stock form, low power, pedal assist or basically a battery powered dirt bike. The former I would gather simply a warning the first time. The latter, kiss your e-dirtbike and the next couple paychecks at the least, goodbye.

    AG being a lawyer makes much more sense now. Trying to play the grey areas. Sadly this is one case that unless exceptions are made (which someone already posted that pedal assist is legal in their area, exceptions specifically made) the wording is too clear cut. Prosecution would simply have to pull out a dictionary to win that. Well normally. California's Judicial system is rather screwed up lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    My initial comment stated that the interest wasn't poaching in general, but riding an e-bike where it's not allowed. Do you understand or should I be even more explicit? You're one who has stated many, many times, over and over that e-MTB's are prohibited in MA (AIR). Do you know what the penalty is if one is caught riding there, or is it like most areas seem to be - there's no policing so it's a moot point? (If there's anything else you don't understand, I'll try to break it down for you).
    Motorized vehicles for off road infractions in MA are subject to MA environmental police action. $500 fine as well as impounding of said vehicle. Some policing, usually reports/complaints are made first to alert them. For me poaching = riding where not allowed. Same thing, yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    As usual, this turned into an access issue when Information about penalties for poaching in specific areas was requested. Relative to bike paths in OC, Class 1 & 2 are permitted except where specifically prohibited. I've seen at least two places with signs depicting that. Poaching penalties is only theoretical at this point since there's no policing except in a few congested areas. One would need to try and get caught here. I can ride at least five places within a few miles of my house where the average number of bikes that I encounter ranges from 0 to 1 per ride.
    So the conversation evolved slightly and you're upset? This was staying pretty civil and not far from the original topic, you seem to be the one who really derailed it.


    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    What I'm wondering is the penalties for riding e-bikes in other areas where they're prohibited.
    That's a request for "Information about penalties for poaching in specific areas"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    So the conversation evolved slightly and you're upset? This was staying pretty civil and not far from the original topic, you seem to be the one who really derailed it.
    That's a request for "Information about penalties for poaching in specific areas"?
    Agreed, this thread was not derailed, poaching is an access issue, so discussing access laws for different riding area's would define when a rider is "poaching" or not and since each area has different ways to managing the lands....

    I am glad to see it staying civil.
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    Seems to me confiscation would be the logical first order.

    NYPD cracks down on illegal e-bikes in 24-hour blitz | am New York

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    Seems to me confiscation would be the logical first order.

    NYPD cracks down on illegal e-bikes in 24-hour blitz | am New York
    That is a good use of resources, especially when they could have gone after some murderers, rapists or bank robbers. I'm being sarcastic BTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    AG being a lawyer makes much more sense now. Trying to play the grey areas. Sadly this is one case that unless exceptions are made (which someone already posted that pedal assist is legal in their area, exceptions specifically made) the wording is too clear cut. Prosecution would simply have to pull out a dictionary to win that. Well normally. California's Judicial system is rather screwed up lol.

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    Certainly not trying to "play grey areas." I'm just trying to get an understanding of what is fact and what is opinion, rumor or hearsay. I find the forum helpful and valuable for this endevour.

    I'm also providing evidence and information, in the form of rules, regulations and ordinances. And I post the regulations and ordinances here for others to see as factual evidence and for them to draw their own conclusions on the evidence. You draw your own conclusions, based on your education and experiences. I also draw my own, based on my education and experience.

    And if someone asks for my thoughts on the topic, I'm happy to provide it, as long as we're not straying into me providing legal advice. I'm not here to be anyone's lawyer or provide legal advice.

    It's certainly good dialog to have, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    What I know about OC Parks....OC Parks generally prohibit what they refer to as "motorized vehicles" in many areas. Not sure if pedal-assist bikes are "motorized vehicles" as defined by OC Parks (haven't done the research). But as far as I can tell, e-bikes like Levos haven't raised concerns in OC Parks. I see a few at Santiago Oaks, Whiting Ranch and Laguna Coast just about each time I've been out riding at these parks in the past year or so.

    Nonetheless, if the OC Parks definition of "motorized vehicle" validly includes pedal assist bikes, then a violation of the "motorized vehicle" prohibition would a misdemeanor. Violations of misdemeanors in OC Parks can, in many instances, result in a fine of up to a $1000 fine and/or up to 6 months in jail.
    I can't speak for OC but in San Diego fines "up to" means pretty much nothing. If the defendant shows up in court, the city attorney will always try to strike a deal and if that's refused and the defendant is found guilty, the judge makes up whatever fine he wants...and generally does. I've had judges change the violation altogether to make the offense less serious. It's a rare, rare, rare case when the just give step maximum penalty allowed on a citation such as this.
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    Poaching, as it refers to breaking the law, means that you killed an animal illegally. It is less commonly used when referring to collecting non-animal items from a forest for personal possession. When a cyclist uses their bike or ebike illegally on a trail, they are not poaching. Trespassing could be used in this instance, but since we are discussing public land even that does not apply well. The problem with using a word like 'poaching' is that it can be used by those who hate bikes or ebike to misrepresent the seriousness of the situation.

  60. #60
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    I'm definitely in the camp that this is a classic case of overthinking. Right now, eBikes are a very niche product and most people (including said Park rangers) wouldn't recognize one unless you actually point out, "Hey, look, there's an eBike." In other words, just ride them on bicycle trails and treat them as such. For all intensive purposes, that's all they are. Since most people ride them "like bicycles" anyway, it's never going to be a problem that riding a bicycle doesn't also have.

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    Surely, if you are not riding on trails that you are banned from there won't be any problems and you have nothing to worry about?

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    chazpat, five days late; interesting, thanks
    av8tor --- interesting; that's down in KJ's vicinity AFAIK

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    Only in America, and perhaps, particularly in California, could there be a an extended argument about a. Whether a bicycle with an electric motor is motorized, and b. What the penalties might be for ignoring such a simple prohibition.
    Freedom of thought and speech are fine things. Pursuit of nonsense might not be so useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wileycoyote View Post
    Only in America, and perhaps, particularly in California, could there be a an extended argument about a. Whether a bicycle with an electric motor is motorized, and b. What the penalties might be for ignoring such a simple prohibition.
    Freedom of thought and speech are fine things. Pursuit of nonsense might not be so useful.
    That's what I thought when reading your comment.
    Last edited by fos'l; 07-03-2017 at 05:32 PM.

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    Poaching.....hmm when did that term become famous for bikes?

    I can only speak about NFS. The warnings are very dire, the truth is something else. You see "up to 10K fine, etc" on the maps etc.

    In actual fact, riding a full on motorcycle on a non-motorized trail is an infraction, like a speeding ticket. After you pay the fine, there is no record at all.

    About 10 years ago I did get a ticket riding on a new trail not open yet. (we had been waiting three years after a big fire--and the trail was way overdue to open--it did two days later LOL). The fine was $200 bucks. I think it's up to 300 now.

    It's too bad people don't concentrate more on behavior than tech. MTB riders don't have a good rep with other users just because of their downhill behavior---the fast ones. They will not see wilderness areas again for this reason.

    I think that's unreasonable, but no less so than the ranting against emtbs. The anti-mtb attitude actually has real encounters behind it. So far I have not come across actual "dangerous encounters" with e-mtbs.

    I'm sure it's happened someplace.

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    Around here the local riders will turn you in in a heartbeat. You'll be given a trespassing charge, a vandalism charge and your ebike will be confiscated and impounded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wileycoyote View Post
    Only in America, and perhaps, particularly in California, could there be a an extended argument about a. Whether a bicycle with an electric motor is motorized, and b. What the penalties might be for ignoring such a simple prohibition.
    Freedom of thought and speech are fine things. Pursuit of nonsense might not be so useful.


    Neither is regurgitating rhetoric.

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    Not particularly useful to you guys in the USA but it's really easy here in the UK:

    https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

    If you can't be bothered to read it: as long as you need to pedal the bike to help it move, you can ride it anywhere you can ride a normal bike.

    BTW - looking at the list of the rules for those parks I'm surprised you're even allowed to breathe - I thought America was supposed to be a land of freedom?

    Oh yeah - what's a 'combustible vehicle' - one that burns? If a rule maker can't even get their rules right (it's 'internal combustion') how can they expect anyone to obey them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Around here the local riders will turn you in in a heartbeat. You'll be given a trespassing charge, a vandalism charge and your ebike will be confiscated and impounded.
    Fantastic :0)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Fantastic :0)
    I know! Right?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
    Not particularly useful to you guys in the USA but it's really easy here in the UK:

    https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

    If you can't be bothered to read it: as long as you need to pedal the bike to help it move, you can ride it anywhere you can ride a normal bike.

    BTW - looking at the list of the rules for those parks I'm surprised you're even allowed to breathe - I thought America was supposed to be a land of freedom?

    Oh yeah - what's a 'combustible vehicle' - one that burns? If a rule maker can't even get their rules right (it's 'internal combustion') how can they expect anyone to obey them?
    Land of the free, not a free for all. Interesting perspective. Worked better once we threw those red coats out And yes, plenty of rules and regulations for those without common sense and need guidelines to play nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
    Not particularly useful to you guys in the USA but it's really easy here in the UK:

    https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

    If you can't be bothered to read it: as long as you need to pedal the bike to help it move, you can ride it anywhere you can ride a normal bike.

    BTW - looking at the list of the rules for those parks I'm surprised you're even allowed to breathe - I thought America was supposed to be a land of freedom?

    Oh yeah - what's a 'combustible vehicle' - one that burns? If a rule maker can't even get their rules right (it's 'internal combustion') how can they expect anyone to obey them?
    Most jurisdictions here in the U.S. allow e-bikes on bike paths. (ie. paved roads) There's no confusion there. I didn't see anything in the literature provided above that says anything about ebike or EAPC's being allowed on managed trails (ie offroad where hikers and equestrians frequent) and where most motorized vehicles are prohibited. So your point is mute.

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    dupe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    Most jurisdictions here in the U.S. allow e-bikes on bike paths. (ie. paved roads) There's no confusion there. I didn't see anything in the literature provided above that says anything about ebike or EAPC's being allowed on managed trails (ie offroad where hikers and equestrians frequent) and where most motorized vehicles are prohibited. So your point is mute.
    Not really - we only have three classes of right of way in the England/Wales (Scotland's different and more open) - footpath, bridleway and byway. Footpath is walkers only, bridleway is walkers, bikes and horses & a byway is walkers, bikes, horses and engines. Doesn't matter if it's off-road or on-road, it'll be one of the three and so long as it's a bridleway or a byway you can ride a bike on it, electric or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Around here the local riders will turn you in in a heartbeat. You'll be given a trespassing charge, a vandalism charge and your ebike will be confiscated and impounded.
    How the heck do you guys ride while carrying the pitchforks and torches

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    Quote Originally Posted by BootneyLee View Post
    How the heck do you guys ride while carrying the pitchforks and torches
    It's easy, we pedal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    It's easy, we pedal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BootneyLee View Post
    How the heck do you guys ride while carrying the pitchforks and torches
    Strapped to those WIDE handlebars with an Awesome strap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Poaching.....hmm when did that term become famous for bikes?
    Been being used for as long as I've been riding MTBs anyway, which is creeping up on thirty years. Also commonly used to describe 'ducking the ropes'' at ski areas since forever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BootneyLee View Post
    How the heck do you guys ride while carrying the pitchforks and torches
    lol.. i reckon haters stick them in between their butt cracks..

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    Don't forget, you can also poach eggs

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    Weird that OP says OC PD would tell e-mtbers to leave. I've never seen actual PD patrolling trails. Perhaps the beach but there's plenty of people riding e-bike cruisers and the police do nothing.

    A lot of the trails in SoCal explicitly state no motorized vehicles are permitted. But e-bikes seem to be the exception. From just about every agency I've contacted they are permitted wherever bikes are.
    Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

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    Rational people don't consider a Levo, for example, a "motorized vehicle" the way this anti-forum does. Post a link to someone getting punished for riding a Class 1 pedelec bike on a California trail while simply riding along like another MTB. Otherwise it's all nonsensical speculation. In the real world, they cause no problems and are treated as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    what on earth does that mean?
    Lets see ya moderate that one! WTF? LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    Rational people don't consider a Levo, for example, a "motorized vehicle" the way this anti-forum does.
    I have no idea what it will take for you people to admit the simple fact that eBikes are motorised. Of course a 'rational' person would consider a Levo motorized. You could fill a room with people who know zero about bikes, show them a Levo and explain how it works and every single one of them will agree that it has a motor. Because it has a motor!

    Two-year-olds are more rational than you people! Or should I say more honest. You know fine well what the truth is but it doesn't suit your agenda so you'll do anything you possibly can to alter the truth and get what you want. I don't know about others but if I were in a position of authority it would make me want to give it to you even less. How can you trust people who can't even talk straight? You can't deal with people like that. Until you start admitting the truth and working from there I can't see how you're going to get anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    Rational people don't consider a Levo, for example, a "motorized vehicle" the way this anti-forum does. Post a link to someone getting punished for riding a Class 1 pedelec bike on a California trail while simply riding along like another MTB. Otherwise it's all nonsensical speculation. In the real world, they cause no problems and are treated as such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    ...Because it has a motor!
    Nobody denies that.

    You are the only ones obnubilate with this and fail completely to look further.

    That in the end it's just a bike and it works exactly the same. You are lying to yourself if you think you can differentiate a 250W ebike to a "normal" one with rational facts in the real world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    Rational people don't consider a Levo, for example, a "motorized vehicle" the way this anti-forum does. Post a link to someone getting punished for riding a Class 1 pedelec bike on a California trail while simply riding along like another MTB. Otherwise it's all nonsensical speculation. In the real world, they cause no problems and are treated as such.
    Well, here in MA, if it has a motor, it is ( duh) considered motorized. CA seems to be the test case for the class 1 pedalecs, although not allowed everywhere.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    Nobody denies that.

    You are the only ones obnubilate with this and fail completely to look further.

    That in the end it's just a bike and it works exactly the same. You are lying to yourself if you think you can differentiate a 250W ebike to a "normal" one with rational facts in the real world.
    Twist the throttle and go? That isn't exactly the same AFAIK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Twist the throttle and go? That isn't exactly the same AFAIK
    I don't have a throttle on my ebikes...

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    I don't have a throttle on my ebikes...
    Your ebike is not the only ebike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Your ebike is not the only ebike.
    Sure. But the way it works, 250 W speed limited pedal-assist, represents most of the market.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    Sure. But the way it works

    Til it doesn't. Then what?

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    You are the only ones obnubilate with this and fail completely to look further.
    Going by the number of trails you muppets are banned from, apparently not.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    Sure. But the way it works, 250 W speed limited pedal-assist, represents most of the market.
    In the US? Proof?

    There's like 10,000 sondors fat bikes out there and they all have throttles and over 250w motors. Emtbs are a minor part of the ebike market. Even within class 1, you can have a legal ebike that you simply ghost pedal to engage the motor. I've ridden ebikes like that, they're cool, but not bikes. And really, pretending that adding a motor doesn't change the nature of a bicycle only weakens your position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Weren't you the guy who claimed that he put on training camps for WorldTour road teams?
    WorldTour road teams? No. Individual athletes.

    eBikes are used an increasing amount. One of the advantages of the "bike as software" work that is being done is the ability of individual athletes to stay off stationary bikes. The posers here will likely deny the fact that training on stationary bikes is very common. eBikes with very specialized software and hardware allow. Training profile to be loaded and then ridden outside. We have combined MTB race course maps with varying levels of "assist" over a ride. (By the way, "assist" is measured from -10 to +10. That's because drag can be programmed in.

    Anyway...the point is that normal people seeing an average mountain biker on a Levo riding along at average speeds, don't care that secreted in the frame is a silent system adding torque to each pedal stroke. Some people lack the ability to form rational analogies. That's OK. Nobody cares. LEOs don't care. Other riders don't care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    Nobody cares. LEOs don't care. Other riders don't care.
    Just curious how much time you've spent advocating for MTB trails with regional and local land managers, then seeing them through the permitting and construction process.

    Anyone who has been involved in the process of getting/maintaining/creating MTB access is well aware that your point of view that 'nobody cares' is simply ignorant.
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    LEOs don't care. Other riders don't care.


    Don't bet on it.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Anyone who has been involved in the process of getting/maintaining/creating MTB access is well aware that your point of view that 'nobody cares' is simply ignorant.
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    Finally, I agree with those who say that some e-bikers are our own worst enemies. Anyone who advocates that e-MTB's aren't different than MTB's or should have equal access might as well write their message, put it into a bottle and throw it in the ocean. Who the hell are you trying to convince? Might as well grab some cats and try to sell them as guard dogs.
    Last edited by fos'l; 07-11-2017 at 12:40 PM.

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