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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    WorldTour road teams? No. Individual athletes.

    eBikes are used an increasing amount. One of the advantages of the "bike as software" work that is being done is the ability of individual athletes to stay off stationary bikes. The posers here will likely deny the fact that training on stationary bikes is very common. eBikes with very specialized software and hardware allow. Training profile to be loaded and then ridden outside. We have combined MTB race course maps with varying levels of "assist" over a ride. (By the way, "assist" is measured from -10 to +10. That's because drag can be programmed in.

    Anyway...the point is that normal people seeing an average mountain biker on a Levo riding along at average speeds, don't care that secreted in the frame is a silent system adding torque to each pedal stroke. Some people lack the ability to form rational analogies. That's OK. Nobody cares. LEOs don't care. Other riders don't care.
    Stationary bikes? Hmmm. Heard of those. But I don't train so there's that. And bikes don't have motors. At least in the US. All riders care about our access not getting thrown out with the e bikes. Dude. 6 posts, nice. Where do you pedal? State and/ or country?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Stationary bikes? Hmmm. Heard of those. But I don't train so there's that. And bikes don't have motors. At least in the US. All riders care about our access not getting thrown out with the e bikes. Dude. 6 posts, nice. Where do you pedal? State and/ or country?
    California, UK, and Italy. Two weeks ago in France. No. Nothing to do with the race.

    Post links to people being penalized for riding a Class One Pedelec Bicycle as defined in the U.K. And CA.

    Otherwise it's all nonsense. Trail access? MTB poachers and hooligan riders are your biggest enemy.

    As long as you fail to differentiate between responsible technological advancements and "electric motorcycles" you will continue to sound silly and irrelevant.

    It really is a bizarre and uniquely American attitude. There is no practical, reasonable basis to be so obstinate. Personally I think it's hysterical that I work with 20 year-old, sponsored riders who LOVE eBike tech as a training tool and that this is completely lost on this anti-forum. I came here after buying a personal Levo and was stunned to see the whacky nature of the place. Thankfully there are rational forums where adult conversations take place.

    I'll check back now and then to see if anyone has evidence of middle aged, tax paying professionals being hunted by law enforcement for violating the sanctity of the arbitrary technological line in the sand.

    So yeah, I'll never reach 1000 posts here. Too busy riding.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    I'll check back now and then to see if anyone has evidence of middle aged, tax paying professionals being hunted by law enforcement for violating the sanctity of the arbitrary technological line in the sand.
    Speaking of arbitrary lines in the sand, why 250 watts? Why not 500? 1,500? Why pedal assist? Motor vs non seems pretty straightforward in comparison.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Speaking of arbitrary lines in the sand, why 250 watts? Why not 500? 1,500? Why pedal assist?
    Maybe because 250 W is a reasonable value relative to the output power of a cyclist? Maybe pedal assist because it's the whole idea behind this, to pedal and to be assisted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    Trail access? MTB poachers and hooligan riders are your biggest enemy.

    As long as you fail to differentiate between responsible technological advancements and "electric motorcycles" you will continue to sound silly and irrelevant.
    Exactly!

    e-bikers, the kind we are trying to discuss here are your peer, not your enemy.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Speaking of arbitrary lines in the sand, why 250 watts? Why not 500? 1,500? Why pedal assist? Motor vs non seems pretty straightforward in comparison.
    Human beings are capable of a relatively narrow range of power outputs, both sustained and bursting. 250 fits in that range. 500 and 1500 do not when you are talking about sustained output. 250 allows for a reasonable "enhancement".

    We have metrics for turning power into forward motion. Would you care to guess what the efficiency difference is between a beach cruiser and a professional grade mountain bike? Are you unaware of the "arms race" that has been going on for 40 years? The bike industry understands what rationally makes sense. So do lawmakers. A small handful of people here do not.

    That's OK. Those folks have zero influence. Sony couldn't stop the iPod. The music industry couldn't stop iTunes.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    Maybe because 250 W is a reasonable value relative to the output power of a cyclist? Maybe pedal assist because it's the whole idea behind this, to pedal and to be assisted.
    Which cyclist? 250 watts is more than average riders can sustain but less than some. And why discriminate against someone who would rather twist a throttle than turn a pedal?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    250 allows for a reasonable "enhancement".
    Reasonable according to who? Can you turn 250 watts (sans motor) for an hour? Most people can't. Marcel Kittel can produce over 1,800 watts, maybe e-bikes should have a turbo burst that matches that.

    The efficiency differences between the heaviest single speed beach cruiser and a carbon road racer aren't nearly as much as the difference between an electric bike and a bicycle. The industry understands profit, period.
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  7. #107
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    I saw Marcell blow by me on my Levo going uphill! His 1800 watts against my 250 didn't stand a chance. Should he be banned? I'm just kidding of course..
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    The efficiency differences between the heaviest single speed beach cruiser and a carbon road racer aren't nearly as much as the difference between an electric bike and a bicycle.
    Maybe you should try one once...

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    Maybe you should try one once...



    Most of us have ridden some kind of motor assisted cycle and know what it's like, I don't know why you guys keep throwing out this straw man.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    California, UK, and Italy. Two weeks ago in France. No. Nothing to do with the race.

    Post links to people being penalized for riding a Class One Pedelec Bicycle as defined in the U.K. And CA.

    Otherwise it's all nonsense. Trail access? MTB poachers and hooligan riders are your biggest enemy.

    As long as you fail to differentiate between responsible technological advancements and "electric motorcycles" you will continue to sound silly and irrelevant.

    It really is a bizarre and uniquely American attitude. There is no practical, reasonable basis to be so obstinate. Personally I think it's hysterical that I work with 20 year-old, sponsored riders who LOVE eBike tech as a training tool and that this is completely lost on this anti-forum. I came here after buying a personal Levo and was stunned to see the whacky nature of the place. Thankfully there are rational forums where adult conversations take place.

    I'll check back now and then to see if anyone has evidence of middle aged, tax paying professionals being hunted by law enforcement for violating the sanctity of the arbitrary technological line in the sand.

    So yeah, I'll never reach 1000 posts here. Too busy riding.
    Don't like the American attitude? You could always leave. Funny, different countries have different laws, norms and rules. Go figure. Bought a levo and just assumed you could ride it everywhere? Now that's funny. And it really all about trail access, you could just do a little history search to catch up.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    As long as you fail to differentiate between responsible technological advancements and "electric motorcycles" you will continue to sound silly and irrelevant.

    It really is a bizarre and uniquely American attitude. There is no practical, reasonable basis to be so obstinate.
    .
    You seem confused as to who makes the rules.
    HINT: it's NOT the people here his forum.

    I guess the question about your familiarity with the processes of creating and managing trails has been answered.
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    Maybe you should try one once...
    People used to say that to me about drugs. My answer was 'No, I might like it'.

    Not everything you like is good for you.

  13. #113
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    So much ignorance on display. Here's a homework assignment. Tell us the difference in power output required to sustain 18 mph on flat ground (assuming no other variables) for a 180 pound rider on a MTB versus a road bike.

    Now do the math for a MTB from 1980 and a MTB with $20k in lightness added.

    Can I sustain 250 watts for an hour? Not at my age. In my 20s, yes. Not that impressive since the record is around 400.

    Can a Class One eBike sustain 250? Not without a lot of human power added to it.

    Trail access? Save your outrage for poachers, hikers, horses, hooligans, and environmentalists who want no humans allowed. Know your enemy. Know your friends. Class One eBikers are your friends, but you treat them like crap. That is the height of arrogance and stupidity. Especially when you consider the demographics.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    Trail access? Save your outrage for poachers, hikers, horses, hooligans, and environmentalists who want no humans allowed. Know your enemy.
    Once again, you seem to think the internet makes trail policy.
    And on the majority of legal MTB trails, anyone using a motor is considered to be a 'poacher' by those that manage those trails. And those that want e-bikes to be considered as 'just another mountain bike' are handing all sorts of ammunition to those enemies of MTB that now have the motor to point to when trying to shut out ALL bikes. Then mountain bikers are forced to become e-bike apologists just to keep their own access, even if they have no use or want for a motor at all.

    Is this really too complicated for some people?
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    So much ignorance on display.
    Hello Pot!
    Let me introduce you to Kettle:
    Trail access? Save your outrage for poachers, hikers, horses, hooligans, and environmentalists who want no humans allowed. Know your enemy. Know your friends. Class One eBikers are your friends, but you treat them like crap. That is the height of arrogance and stupidity. Especially when you consider the demographics.
    The MTB community would love it if the eBike crowd were our friends, but time and time again the users of eBikes who come to post on MTBR act like a bike with a motor is not different than one without a motor and cry out that anyone who disagrees is a hate monger....

    Stop calling other users here at MTBR Ignorant, Arrogant and Stupid just because you disagree with them.

    When someone comes on this site and says how awesome it was to ride their brand new eBike on a trail that expressly forbids them and other users get upset about how this could lead to trail access issues... how can anyone really disagree with that? Trails are already being closed because some riders chose to strava all their times and were caught riding downhill above the posted 20mph speed limit of a specific park in Northern California, that lead to ALL bike access being removed from said park. To think that bikes with motors will not eventually lead to more of that is foolish. eBikes are here and the technology will get better, the bikes will get more powerful and the laws will eventually catch up. All that most users here want is for those who own the eBikes to step up and start representing their bikes for what they are, a bicycle with power assist that makes them faster than a pedal bike in most case and to stop making outlandish claims that they are no different at all from a pedal only bike and to stop pretending that by just riding them everything will be okay and no trails will be closed because of the motors.....
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Stop calling other users here at MTBR Ignorant, Arrogant and Stupid just because you disagree with them.
    I couldn't agree with you more, but shouldn't this request apply to everyone posting here?

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    Can a Class One eBike sustain 250? Not without a lot of human power added to it.
    Why not? Common 250w emtb motors can put out 520-530w at max assist, it's claimed anyway, I have no way to know if it's true. With typical systems, the motor will add back based on your cadence and torque input and whatever assist setting you've chosen like:

    "Trail Control

    The typical Bosch dynamic power control always gives the rider the right degree of support (50-300% when traveling over steep terrain."

    https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/ebike...mance-line-cx/

    So, as I read it, if you can sustain 150w at max assist, the motor will add on up to 450w on top of that. I'm sure it will vary some based on the combination of cadence/torque and however the software has been programmed, but I would imagine it would comfortably be over 250w.

    I'm curious if you have numbers on that?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn2Ride View Post
    So much ignorance on display. Here's a homework assignment. Tell us the difference in power output required to sustain 18 mph on flat ground (assuming no other variables) for a 180 pound rider on a MTB versus a road bike.

    Now do the math for a MTB from 1980 and a MTB with $20k in lightness added.
    This calculator Bike Calculator says a 180# rider on a 15# road bike would be producing about 130 watts to maintain 18mph. The same rider on a 30# mtb would have to make about 240 watts to maintain the same speed. Most of the difference in power required between the 2 is due to tires/wheels and aerodynamics.

    Because of that the difference between mountain bike from the 80's vs. the one with "20k in lightness" wouldn't be so dramatic, all else equal and on level terrain it would only take 10 more watts to propel a 40 pound mountain bike @ 18mph than it would on a 15 pound carbon wonder machine.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Once again, you seem to think the internet makes trail policy.
    And on the majority of legal MTB trails, anyone using a motor is considered to be a 'poacher' by those that manage those trails. .
    Proof?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    Proof?


    A nation wide ban in national forests and blm land on non-motorized trails. Considered poaching. Think they don't consider offenders poachers?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    A nation wide ban in national forests and blm land on non-motorized trails. Considered poaching. Think they don't consider offenders poachers?
    "By those that manage those trails?" You know each of them?

    Only a matter of time before someone mounts a legal challenge the BLM/USFS position.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    "By those that manage those trails?" You know each of them?

    Only a matter of time before someone mounts a legal challenge the BLM/USFS position.



    So what? Just because you challenge it doesn't mean that you change anything. If anything, emotorbikes could very well wind up in an even less tenable position. We can hope so anyway.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    So what? Just because you challenge it doesn't mean that you change anything. If anything, emotorbikes could very well wind up in an even less tenable position. We can hope so anyway.
    You can hope all you want...

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BootneyLee View Post
    I couldn't agree with you more, but shouldn't this request apply to everyone posting here?
    But what if someone is Ignorant, Arrogant and Stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    So, as I read it, if you can sustain 150w at max assist, the motor will add on up to 450w on top of that...
    None if this matters at all, as eBike power is not going to stay the same.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    Proof?
    Ummm...the rules and regs say so on the vast majority of public lands.

    Are you saying you believe the opposite, that most MTB trails are legally open to e-bikes and other motorized use? Or more likely a lame attempt at obfuscating?
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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    "By those that manage those trails?" You know each of them?

    Only a matter of time before someone mounts a legal challenge the BLM/USFS position.
    Establishing an adversarial relationship right out of the gate with as many of the people involved in access as possible should work out very well for you. Good luck with that.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    "By those that manage those trails?" You know each of them?

    Only a matter of time before someone mounts a legal challenge the BLM/USFS position.
    Legal challenge? Hmmm, lawyer talk( no offense). An entrenched US government agency who makes their own rules and listens to nobody( well almost) Or a bureaucracy that moves very slowly with many regulations, meetings and findings first. Seems like easy pickins.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Establishing an adversarial relationship right out of the gate with as many of the people involved in access as possible should work out very well for you. Good luck with that.
    Luck has nothing to do with what I do.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Legal challenge? Hmmm, lawyer talk( no offense). An entrenched US government agency who makes their own rules and listens to nobody( well almost) Or a bureaucracy that moves very slowly with many regulations, meetings and findings first. Seems like easy pickins.
    None taken!

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGarcia View Post
    Luck has nothing to do with what I do.
    Then you obviously don't create trails.
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    When someone comes on this site and says how awesome it was to ride their brand new eBike on a trail that expressly forbids them and other users get upset about how this could lead to trail access issues... how can anyone really disagree with that?
    I guess it's because, for the most part, most riders don't care, myself included.
    Honestly, I don't care who it peeves off, I'm riding my bike where I wish regardless of "rules".

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Trails are already being closed because some riders chose to strava all their times and were caught riding downhill above the posted 20mph speed limit of a specific park in Northern California, that lead to ALL bike access being removed from said park.
    Case in point. I bet there are riders there anyway all the time. "Obey" laws or go have fun. I choose fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    and to stop making outlandish claims that they are no different at all from a pedal only bike and to stop pretending that by just riding them everything will be okay and no trails will be closed because of the motors.....
    None will be unless people foolishly point it out. They are bikes that are just easier to ride. They should be treated as such. If they get to fast or whatever, guess what, there's a word for what they're called, "motorcycle". Everyone knows the difference between a motorcycle and a bicycle. eBikes are bicycles. They are not motorcycles. "But it has a motor on it..." I don't care. It's a bicycle. I'm going to treat it as one. I'm going to view it as one. I'm going to call it one. Don't like it? Again, I don't care. While people are spending years trying to get laws passed for access, I and so, so, so, so, so, so, so, sooooo many riders are having fun, riding trails, in the meantime. The only difference is that maybe the trails aren't groomed. So. I'm still having fun.

  32. #132
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    Promoting poaching should help even more than threatening to sue.

    Good thinking.
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  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabpn View Post
    I guess it's because, for the most part, most riders don't care, myself included.
    Honestly, I don't care who it peeves off, I'm riding my bike where I wish regardless of "rules".



    Case in point. I bet there are riders there anyway all the time. "Obey" laws or go have fun. I choose fun.
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  34. #134
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    I think the rule about expunging posts that promote, glorify or exhibit poaching is underutilized.

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    Please don't link this dude as the typical ebiker and bulk us all together. You have to respect land owners and rules otherwise mtbrs could lose access. I for one love my mtb way more than my ebike.
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  36. #136
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    Leave the posts there so that there is complete transparency. My two cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
    Not particularly useful to you guys in the USA but it's really easy here in the UK:

    https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

    If you can't be bothered to read it: as long as you need to pedal the bike to help it move, you can ride it anywhere you can ride a normal bike.

    BTW - looking at the list of the rules for those parks I'm surprised you're even allowed to breathe - I thought America was supposed to be a land of freedom?

    Oh yeah - what's a 'combustible vehicle' - one that burns? If a rule maker can't even get their rules right (it's 'internal combustion') how can they expect anyone to obey them?
    The USA *used* to be the land of freedom, now it is populated by douchebag control freaks.

    I'll let them self-identify with their responses.

  38. #138
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    Individuals who desire to ignore the laws might keep it to themselves in order to stop providing ammunition for the real enemies of MTB. Apparently, some ignoramuses who post don't realize this.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Individuals who desire to ignore the laws might keep it to themselves in order to stop providing ammunition for the real enemies of MTB. Apparently, some ignoramuses who post don't realize this.


    Gonna resort to name calling because one of your brethren is posting info that runs contrary to your agenda? Can't have it both ways, better get used to this stuff being used against you because it's a fact of life in access battles. The "real enemies" are emotors by the way.

  40. #140
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    I've said many times that I'm an MTB advocate first, but won't coddle to the "individuals" (don't like to use the term that is appropriate) who are trolling just looking for an argument because they have nothing else to do on their sofa. You've never backed up your statement about trails being closed with any concrete examples.
    Don't let it bother you though, none of the others have either, but at least they didn't mouth off about it, then not deliver anything but more BS.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    I've said many times that I'm an MTB advocate first, but won't coddle to the "individuals" (don't like to use the term that is appropriate) who are trolling just looking for an argument because they have nothing else to do on their sofa. I ride my MTB almost every day and occasionally an e-MTB. You belong on everyone's ignore list whether they like e-bikes or not as well as anyone who extols poaching.

    Why? Because I can use a well reasoned response that runs counter to your very forced narrative? Or is it that you aren't getting your way so you're going to pout some more. Your efforts to attach emotors to mtb's isn't going to work, you're going to have to get your own access. Go advocate, go raise funding, go dig. Just quit trying to coat tail on mtb access.

  42. #142
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    Ammunition? Ammunition for what? To post "signs" on trails that have a hundred different access points, underfunded "enforcement", and other advocacy groups who want to control things for themselves? And? Riding a bicycle in places that they are not allowed is hardly a serious crime or punishable by any serious, well, punishment. Mind your p's and q's on trails in general and most people won't care that you're there. Most people are the vast majority of users who don't even know there are advocacy goings ons in the first place and are simply out enjoying the outdoors.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Your efforts to attach emotors to mtb's isn't going to work, you're going to have to get your own access.
    And yet, folks are riding e-mtbs.....

  44. #144
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    AG, occasionally I encounter riders on e-MTB's and nobody cares; probably very few individuals even know the bikes have motors. The only people who cry are on this forum, and will have no influence on the situation. The answer is to let them whine while the rest of us ride.

  45. #145
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    The more I listen to eBikers the more I think that they deserve all of the animosity they attract.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
    BTW - looking at the list of the rules for those parks I'm surprised you're even allowed to breathe - I thought America was supposed to be a land of freedom?
    Keep in mind that in the US, there are almost 1,000,000 square miles of national public lands. That's 10 times the are of the entire UK, and doesn't even consider countless state and local public lands. There are tons and tons of opportunities to ride almost anything you want on endless terrain. The problem comes when people start thinking every single corner of land needs to be open for every imaginable use. Doesn't work that way.
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  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    AG, occasionally I encounter riders on e-MTB's and nobody cares; probably very few individuals even know the bikes have motors. The only people who cry are on this forum, and will have no influence on the situation. The answer is to let them whine while the rest of us ride.
    Agreed.

  48. #148
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    A friend sent me a link to this story from Ireland: LINK

    So, if we put knobbly tyres on it, should this bike be allowed on non-motorised trails?

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    A friend sent me a link to this story from Ireland: LINK

    So, if we put knobbly tyres on it, should this bike be allowed on non-motorised trails?
    Do you mean this thing:
    https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/sta...744705/photo/1

    Considering it has a gas motor and an exhaust pipe.... that is nothing like a pedelec.

    I hate those 2-cycle ad-on kits, moron runs up and down my street on one, so loud... so annoying.
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    A friend sent me a link to this story from Ireland: LINK

    So, if we put knobbly tyres on it, should this bike be allowed on non-motorised trails?
    I see hobos on those fairly often in a big cloud of blue smoke, more often than I see ebikes.

    Speaking of Ireland and ebikes, this is pretty amusing:

    Singletrack Magazine | Northern Ireland Assembly Promotes Illegal E-bikes

    Oopsie

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Considering it has a gas motor and an exhaust pipe.... that is nothing like a pedelec.
    I wouldn't say that. Does a similar speed, pedal-assist, apart from the power source it's in the ball park.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I wouldn't say that. Does a similar speed, pedal-assist, apart from the power source it's in the ball park.
    not really pedal assist in the same fashion, more like pedal to start, then throttle to go. That is how all the ones I see in my area work. I never see anyone pedaling them to actual move them along.
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  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I wouldn't say that. Does a similar speed, pedal-assist, apart from the power source it's in the ball park.
    How you could ever liken that thing to a modern E-MTB Ill never know!!!!!
    You've got to be clutching at straws with that one MR Pig.

    I don't think that the type of EBike riders that frequent MTB forums such as this would ride those sort of contraptions.

    Its like me suggesting YOU are riding the bike below on the trails !!!!!

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  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I wouldn't say that. Does a similar speed, pedal-assist, apart from the power source it's in the ball park.
    In CA I can't even ride my dirt bike in a state park during the summer due to air regulations. So for those that try to use the gas motor vs ebike give it up, it's not even close.

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