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  1. #1
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    I'm a convert as well

    51 years old ex professional motorcycle road racer and test rider have not ridden MTB properly for about 15 years. I read about new MTB and pedal assist bikes for the past two years and a month ago my lovely wife bought me a Specialized Turbo Levo Expert and set me out on the trails. I haven't looked back since I can't believe how much fun the bike is and how good the suspension is. I am able to keep my heart rate in the maximum cardio range during my rides and am riding about 6 hours a week already.
    I can honestly say if it wasn't for the pedal assist I would still be on the couch Saturday mornings. In just one month I can't tell you how much money I have put into the bicycle industry lol.
    Anyway if your sitting on the fence regarding buying a pedal assist or not my advice to you is try one out and get out there....

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountie View Post
    I can honestly say if it wasn't for the pedal assist I would still be on the couch Saturday mornings.
    That's pretty sad. But glad you got off the couch.
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  3. #3
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    Sad not at all I've spent years riding superbikes around grand prix circuits in Europe it was the technology of the pedal assist that got me interested the health benefits are a bonus. Not sad at all thanks...

  4. #4
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    No, I mean sad that you would be on the couch if you couldn't have a pedal assist bike.
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  5. #5
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    Just wasn't that interested until I saw the tech in PAS.

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    It's interesting, around here there are a bunc of people who are old and creaky or just not athletic (moms pulling kids in bike trailer) with e-bikes who basically toodle the bike paths. Good stuff.

    Then there are a couple dudes who are offroad truck and atv racers who built monster e-bikes and started raging around on the singletrack (and STRAVA'ing their exploits, no less) who upset a fair number of people and put the last nail in the coffin for legal access for a while.

    It will be interesting to see how much of the moto crowd is attracted to these, and whether they'll be ok with riding them stock/unmodified. Based on my (much less impressive) moto past, I'd put my money on "some" and "no".

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    The need to modify part is the one that I don't get. Suspension, seat, tires and rims I can see, but the motor does not need to be touched. It is not necessary. It's a bicycle and it does what it is supposed to do. And it does it well.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    . It's a bicycle


    No it's not, it has a motor. Bicycles do not have motors no matter what the industry would have you believe.
    Nothing that's worth anything is ever easy - M. Hall

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    No it's not, it has a motor. Bicycles do not have motors no matter what the industry would have you believe.
    It looks like a bicycle, rides like a bicycle and operates like a bicycle, so I think it's a bicycle. What do you think it is?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    It looks like a bicycle, rides like a bicycle and operates like a bicycle, so I think it's a bicycle. What do you think it is?


    Excluded from most of the best non-motorized trails is what it is.
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  11. #11
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    Nice that you found something enjoyable and healthy.

    There is some serious animosity against ebikes here. They are not bicycles though, won't ever change a cyclists mind on that. It's an e-bike. Bicycle is fully human powered, e-bikes are motorized vehicles. They have a motor that provides power to the drive wheel. Thus doesn't operate like a bicycle fully.

    It's not an easy distinction for those that aren't cyclists but many guys get very upset about it.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountie View Post
    51 years old ex professional motorcycle road racer and test rider have not ridden MTB properly for about 15 years.
    Awesome! Glad you're out there and riding mtb!

    I'm always in awe of the talent of professional racers! I remember about 10 years ago, I was at Willow Springs for a Friday track day. As I was transitioning from Turn 3 into Turn 4a, some dude squeezed on the inside of me on the kerbing at the apex of 4a. Even though the pass was surgical and decisive, I was initially pissed --like "WTF" --- till I saw the "Hodgson" patch sown on the dude's ass. I had just gotten punked by Neil Hodgson! That kinda made my day!!

    I club raced here in SoCal for years. First in the 600 class, and later, mostly SV650 based race bikes. I even got my own multi-page spread in the April, 2010 edition of Roadracing World! Unfortunately, my multi-page spread was for the "Crash Page." LOL. My racing was mostly with older guys like me with day jobs and young gun up-and comers on their first "bigger" bike. It's cool to see a few of kids I raced at one point come into their own on the MotoAmerica circuit.

    I'm currently on "hiatus" while my son is in his formative years. With getting my kid to soccer, swim, basketball and baseball, I just can't spend two weekends a month at the track any longer. And if you're not out practicing, you just get rusty... I miss it dearly, and I want to get back out there someday. But in the meantime, I'm out pedaling on mountain bikes.

    Ahhh memories...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Nice that you found something enjoyable and healthy.

    There is some serious animosity against ebikes here. They are not bicycles though, won't ever change a cyclists mind on that. It's an e-bike. Bicycle is fully human powered, e-bikes are motorized vehicles. They have a motor that provides power to the drive wheel. Thus doesn't operate like a bicycle fully.

    It's not an easy distinction for those that aren't cyclists but many guys get very upset about it.

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    Thanks for educating us on who is a cyclist and who is not.....

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Excluded from most of the best non-motorized trails is what it is.
    Eventually your opinion will mean absolutely nothing and you will have to accept that, or feel that bitter twist of hate in the pit of your stomach every time you see one go by you on the trail. They are common and accepted in Europe, inevitably it will be the same in North America.

  15. #15
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    In this context isn't a convert someone who switched from being a bicycle enthusiast to an e-bike enthusiast?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    No it's not, it has a motor. Bicycles do not have motors no matter what the industry would have you believe.
    No it's not, it has a motor. Bicycles do not have motors for propulsion no matter what the industry would have you believe.

    Just to keep the Di2 believers happy. And the armchair lawyers quiet.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    It looks like a bicycle, rides like a bicycle and operates like a bicycle, so I think it's a bicycle. What do you think it is?
    Bikes don't have motors, they are something else. And defined by DOT and land managers differently depending on county, state and local rules. Ie motorized vehicles, electric bike etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    Eventually your opinion will mean absolutely nothing and you will have to accept that, or feel that bitter twist of hate in the pit of your stomach every time you see one go by you on the trail. They are common and accepted in Europe, inevitably it will be the same in North America.
    I'm actually not so sure. I'd say it would be much more likely if BPSA had adopted the same regs as are in the EU, which they didn't. And if there were similar controls on the sale and enforcement of the regulations here, which there aren't. And if land access issues here weren't as problematic. I've ridden in Europe and 250w/15 mph emtbs aren't a problem as far as I can tell. Land managers here though are realizing that it's not an apples to apples comparison with the EU and are more leery of what we'll see on the trails. I think it was stupid of the BPSA to not adopt identical classes as the EU, or even to add a specific emtb class that was the same as the EU Pedelc.

    It's still very early, so it's hard to say either way.

  19. #19
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    V-bulletin has taken over...
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    V-bulletin has taken over...

    I'm a convert as well-terminator-meme.jpg
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    The need to modify part is the one that I don't get. Suspension, seat, tires and rims I can see, but the motor does not need to be touched. It is not necessary. It's a bicycle and it does what it is supposed to do. And it does it well.
    "Suspension, seat, tires and rims" are child's play; mods to motor systems is what being an American is all about. Actually the motor itself can be left alone; modding the controller is where it's at. Of course battery upgrades is what makes it all come together.

    "We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard" John F Kennedy (abridged)
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I had copied and pasted the aforementioned Kennedy quote and unbeknownst to me my source text had a hidden link in it. Really pissed Vbulletin off; the text editor stopped working even though I had deleted link. Actually had to switch computers to continue on in this thread; my tablet must have MTBR cookies proclaiming it to be a bad actor. Oh well; a reload/restart will make it all better...
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    "Suspension, seat, tires and rims" are child's play; mods to motor systems is what being an American is all about. Actually the motor itself can be left alone; modding the controller is where it's at. Of course battery upgrades is what makes it all come together.

    "We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard" John F Kennedy (abridged)
    Yep, Looking at the Ginat Full E and getting a dongle from Germany to raise the max speed to 40mph. Not interested in only going 15mph, already can do that one my current bicycle. Too bad the Giant does not have a Bosch motor, they have dongles for those that can up it to 70mph. There are no regs where I live but you cannot ride a full on motorcycle or I would go that route.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMan View Post
    Yep, Looking at the Ginat Full E and getting a dongle from Germany to raise the max speed to 40mph. Not interested in only going 15mph, already can do that one my current bicycle. Too bad the Giant does not have a Bosch motor, they have dongles for those that can up it to 70mph. There are no regs where I live but you cannot ride a full on motorcycle or I would go that route.
    You do realize that derestricting doesn't make the bike more powerful? Good luck hitting 70mph without a full fairing, a car to draft behind and a really steep hill.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    You do realize that derestricting doesn't make the bike more powerful? Good luck hitting 70mph without a full fairing, a car to draft behind and a really steep hill.


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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    You do realize that derestricting doesn't make the bike more powerful? Good luck hitting 70mph without a full fairing, a car to draft behind and a really steep hill.
    There is a youtube of a guy that is hitting 55mph pretty easily with a dongle attached.

    There are several eu sites that have dongles that allow at least twice the speed. Just saying, no experience.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    Eventually your opinion will mean absolutely nothing and you will have to accept that, or feel that bitter twist of hate in the pit of your stomach every time you see one go by you on the trail. They are common and accepted in Europe, inevitably it will be the same in North America.
    Nope. I'm about as tight with federal land managers as you can get, without actually being an employee. Our public lands exist and are managed in a completely different way than any other country, especially Europe. It will never happen here. Yep, never. Current administration aside, US politics and public feelings towards federal lands are very locked down by environmentalists and other special interest groups. It is exceedingly hard to lighten restrictions. Access for motor vehicles is so far down the list of issues that it isn't even on the list.

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMan View Post
    There are no regs where I live but you cannot ride a full on motorcycle or I would go that route.
    I'm genuinely curious as to what and where this is. You can't ride a motor vehicle but you can ride a motor vehicle?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I'm genuinely curious as to what and where this is. You can't ride a motor vehicle but you can ride a motor vehicle?



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    Central VA there have been zero regs yet in place for most place I ride. I don't want to ride an ebike in place of an actual bike, just want it to mess around and it would be fun, but at 15 mph, not interested.
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    I'll bet if you dig, there are existing regulations. Specifically, if they don't allow motorcycles, then ebikes aren't allowed. Unless Virginia is one of the few states that don't classify ebikes as motor vehicles in their motor vehicle code, thus allowing them on State owned lands. I honestly don't know about Virginia.

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I'll bet if you dig, there are existing regulations. Specifically, if they don't allow motorcycles, then ebikes aren't allowed. Unless Virginia is one of the few states that don't classify ebikes as motor vehicles in their motor vehicle code, thus allowing them on State owned lands. I honestly don't know about Virginia.

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    Nope, you COULD actually use a moto on the trails but you be asked to leave. We use 4 wheelers to do trail work. County has no regs on file for use of the parks, I am sure they will be coming soon, but we are very small. Just got our first traffic light a few years ago, so an ebike would have no issues and I doubt you would even see another user of the park while you were there. The land manager is okay with it until or if the county ever adopts some regs.
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  32. #32
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    Well, have a blast then!

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    Eventually your opinion will mean absolutely nothing and you will have to accept that, or feel that bitter twist of hate in the pit of your stomach every time you see one go by you on the trail. They are common and accepted in Europe, inevitably it will be the same in North America.
    I agree with this. While I'm firmly in the anti e-bike crowd with life behind bars, I fully expect somebody to take it to court and have access granted to all. That's just the way this country works...especially nowadays. If you biatch, complain and whine long enough, you'll get your way. Twenty years ago, NOBODY on this planet would have expected some of the things that are now legal here to come about....e-bikes getting full access will sadly be another. I hope I'm wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    I agree with this. While I'm firmly in the anti e-bike crowd with life behind bars, I fully expect somebody to take it to court and have access granted to all. That's just the way this country works...especially nowadays. If you biatch, complain and whine long enough, you'll get your way. Twenty years ago, NOBODY on this planet would have expected some of the things that are now legal here to come about....e-bikes getting full access will sadly be another. I hope I'm wrong.
    That's not how land access works however. If it did, then mountain bikers could just sue for access to Wilderness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    That's not how land access works however. If it did, then mountain bikers could just sue for access to Wilderness.

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    Not trying to be argumentative but my statement still stands...it's only MY opinion after all and as I said, I hope I'm wrong. There are just too many things that I never thought possible that have come to be that can make me feel otherwise. I've also learned many times over that higher powers can do what they want and ignore laws already on the books. I don't want to derail this but just look at a former President who ignores immigration laws and actually orders the agency responsible for border protection to NOT do their job....we also have states that have superseded Federal law by legalizing marijuana. That's not supposed to happen either so the "that's not how land access works" statement means nothing
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Well, have a blast then!

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    I know, who wouldn't want to give it a go for the fun of it. I agree though, they have no place on trails that are restricted. They are a form of "motor" bikes and should be treated as such, I am of the camp that there needs to be different regs for them and the argument for different powers is flawed, there would be no way to enforce that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Not trying to be argumentative but my statement still stands...it's only MY opinion after all and as I said, I hope I'm wrong. There are just too many things that I never thought possible that have come to be that can make me feel otherwise. I've also learned many times over that higher powers can do what they want and ignore laws already on the books. I don't want to derail this but just look at a former President who ignores immigration laws and actually orders the agency responsible for border protection to NOT do their job....we also have states that have superseded Federal law by legalizing marijuana. That's not supposed to happen either so the "that's not how land access works" statement means nothing
    All too true

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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMan View Post
    the argument for different powers is flawed, there would be no way to enforce that.
    Exactly


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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Not trying to be argumentative but my statement still stands...it's only MY opinion after all and as I said, I hope I'm wrong. There are just too many things that I never thought possible that have come to be that can make me feel otherwise. I've also learned many times over that higher powers can do what they want and ignore laws already on the books. I don't want to derail this but just look at a former President who ignores immigration laws and actually orders the agency responsible for border protection to NOT do their job....we also have states that have superseded Federal law by legalizing marijuana. That's not supposed to happen either so the "that's not how land access works" statement means nothing
    You're looking at the big ,federal picture. Here in MA, conservation areas, land trusts, private orgs and state rules , well rule. Add in hiking and eco extremists to that mix. Still fighting for equal mt bike access in some areas. Thats not how land access works here. Check out a recent BIKE mag article about the Central MA watershed shutting out mt bikers after 20 years of access. But rangers on ATVs and timber harvest are OK?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMan View Post
    There is a youtube of a guy that is hitting 55mph pretty easily with a dongle attached.

    There are several eu sites that have dongles that allow at least twice the speed. Just saying, no experience.
    You could certainly hit the 50's on a steep dirt road, I can do that on a road bike without pedalling at all. Which is beyond where an emtb/mtb gearing will spin out. 70 is another animal all together, the energy required to get there rises exponentially. Most of the dongled guys say the power cuts out in the mid 30's. So faster than 15? Oh hell yeah, you can ride much faster than that.

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    Hello Mr Garcia, I rode with Neil in the UK and on the Island for a Duke video we made he is a top fella and does go like hell. Thanks for the welcome..... I've never been much for being put in a category guess that's why I ended up holding onto a set handlebars for 45 years lol. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that pedal assist bikes have a few protesters in fact it makes it a bit more fun lol....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails I'm a convert as well-pw-spain.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    In this context isn't a convert someone who switched from being a bicycle enthusiast to an e-bike enthusiast?
    From couch to bike this time lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Most of the dongled guys say the power cuts out in the mid 30's.
    Why do I always feel so out of the loop on forums?


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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    I agree with this. While I'm firmly in the anti e-bike crowd with life behind bars, I fully expect somebody to take it to court and have access granted to all. That's just the way this country works...especially nowadays. If you biatch, complain and whine long enough, you'll get your way. Twenty years ago, NOBODY on this planet would have expected some of the things that are now legal here to come about....e-bikes getting full access will sadly be another. I hope I'm wrong.
    Man now that is sad, I honestly don't think there is that much difference in speed between a pedal assist and a normal bike. I have seen some pretty reckless and disrespectful riding on normal bicycles that does more damage to cyclist reputations then riders going 5mph faster on a pedal assist bike then they can on a normal bike. Our town has allowed pedal assist on our local bike paths but does not allow E-bikes you don't have to pedal. Also they can't go over 20mph. This came into effect 27 Jan 2017
    Last edited by Mountie; 06-15-2017 at 11:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    It looks like a bicycle, rides like a bicycle and operates like a bicycle, so I think it's a bicycle. What do you think it is?
    ]It looks like a bicycle: Yes

    rides like a bicycle: no

    operates like a bicycle: NO

    so I think it's a bicycle: I think unicorns with machetes for legs are bicycles.

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    I'm a convert as well

    = I think unicorns with machetes for legs are bicycles.
    Can someone please
    Photoshop this ?



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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by abelfonseca View Post
    ]It looks like a bicycle: Yes

    rides like a bicycle: no

    operates like a bicycle: NO

    so I think it's a bicycle: I think unicorns with machetes for legs are bicycles.
    Lol what does it ride or operate like?

    If you say a moto I might call you a *****
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1ORBUST View Post
    Lol what does it ride or operate like?

    If you say a moto I might call you a *****
    Rides like an ebike, which is different then a bicycle. Not really that hard. Why is this so confusing?
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1ORBUST View Post
    Lol what does it ride or operate like?
    Ummmm, guessing like a bike with a motor, not a traditional bicycle. It ain't rocket science.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1ORBUST View Post
    Lol what does it ride or operate like?

    If you say a moto I might call you a *****
    This is way better if you read it in Jules Winnfield's voice, lol!

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1ORBUST View Post
    Lol what does it ride or operate like?

    If you say a moto I might call you a *****
    If you can't tell the difference, why don't you just ride an actual bicycle? Then we wouldn't be discussing this.
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  53. #53
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    PAS is legal here was turned over in Jan this year over 180 miles of bicycle trails open to PAS but not power on demand, bikes that can be propelled without pedaling. FACT It will change as bicycle companies lobby on behalf of PAS.... Bottom line and answering to share holders will prevail....

    Going out for a legal PAS ride on the local paths...

    To ensure everyone who uses our pathways has a safe, enjoyable experience, please review the rules, legal regulations and etiquette guidelines before heading out.

    • Respect the posted speed limit of either 20 km/hour or 10 km/hr, depending on location
    • Signal audibly when passing
    • Keep to the right and yield to the right-of-way
    • Avoid the use of ski poles while in-line skating or skiing
    • Pedal assist electric bicycles are allowed on pathways, except where bicycles are prohibited
    • Power on demand electric bicycles are not allowed on pathways
    • Be considerate to other pathway users
    • Be a responsible pet owner; maintain control and clean up after your pet

    At any time of year, we recommend checking for pathway closures on the Pathways and Bikeways mobile application or online before you start your journey.
    Snow on our pathways


  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    To ensure everyone who uses our pathways has a safe, enjoyable experience, please review the rules, legal regulations and etiquette guidelines before heading out.
    •Respect the posted speed limit of either 20 km/hour or 10 km/hr, depending on location
    •Signal audibly when passing
    •Keep to the right and yield to the right-of-way
    •Avoid the use of ski poles while in-line skating or skiing
    •Pedal assist electric bicycles are allowed on pathways, except where bicycles are prohibited
    •Power on demand electric bicycles are not allowed on pathways
    •Be considerate to other pathway users
    •Be a responsible pet owner; maintain control and clean up after your pet

    At any time of year, we recommend checking for pathway closures on the Pathways and Bikeways mobile application or online before you start your journey.

    Snow on our pathways

  55. #55
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    Maybe you need to do some reading Cornfield, thought the clue would be in the name lol...

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    Thought you all would like to see the true definitions of what an e-bike is in the eyes of our law. I'm sure it will soon filter through only took a few months to change here.

    Electric Bikes on Pathways
    Electric bikes (e-bikes) are rapidly growing in popularity and Calgarians are now looking to use them in our city parks. All bicycles must obey the Parks & Pathway Bylaws. Gasoline powered motorized bicycles and are not allowed on pathways or trails.
    What is an e-bike?
    An e-bike is a bicycle that has an electric motor that can be used to move the bike. We recognize pedelecs and power on demand bikes as the two main types of e-bikes.
    Pedelecs (allowed)
    Pedelecs are e-bikes with pedal assist systems. They use sensors to activate the motor when the bike is pedaled. The motor turns off when pedaling stops or when the e-bike reaches 32km/h.They are designed to enhance the power of the rider, not to replace it. Since pedaling is required on pedelecs, they are considered bicycles.
    Pedelecs are allowed on pathways and trails, except where bicycles are prohibited.
    Power on demand (not allowed)
    Power on demand e-bikes use a throttle to activate the motor. The motor (or motors) on these bikes are independent of the pedals, making pedaling an option. You can either cruise using the power of the motor without pedaling or pedal while using the motor. The motor turns off when the brakes are applied or when the off button on the throttle is pushed. Since pedaling is not required, they are not considered bicycles.
    Power on demand e-bikes are not allowed on pathways or trails.

    Now if us silly backwards Canadians can tell the difference between the two types of E-bikes why can you guys?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountie View Post
    Thought you all would like to see the true definitions of what an e-bike is in the eyes of our law. I'm sure it will soon filter through only took a few months to change here.

    Electric Bikes on Pathways
    Electric bikes (e-bikes) are rapidly growing in popularity and Calgarians are now looking to use them in our city parks. All bicycles must obey the Parks & Pathway Bylaws. Gasoline powered motorized bicycles and are not allowed on pathways or trails.
    What is an e-bike?
    An e-bike is a bicycle that has an electric motor that can be used to move the bike. We recognize pedelecs and power on demand bikes as the two main types of e-bikes.
    Pedelecs (allowed)
    Pedelecs are e-bikes with pedal assist systems. They use sensors to activate the motor when the bike is pedaled. The motor turns off when pedaling stops or when the e-bike reaches 32km/h.They are designed to enhance the power of the rider, not to replace it. Since pedaling is required on pedelecs, they are considered bicycles.
    Pedelecs are allowed on pathways and trails, except where bicycles are prohibited.
    Power on demand (not allowed)
    Power on demand e-bikes use a throttle to activate the motor. The motor (or motors) on these bikes are independent of the pedals, making pedaling an option. You can either cruise using the power of the motor without pedaling or pedal while using the motor. The motor turns off when the brakes are applied or when the off button on the throttle is pushed. Since pedaling is not required, they are not considered bicycles.
    Power on demand e-bikes are not allowed on pathways or trails.

    Now if us silly backwards Canadians can tell the difference between the two types of E-bikes why can you guys?
    With all due respect, just because Canada defines something as so, it doesn't make it so.


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  58. #58
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    You're talking about bike paths? Not what we're debating here.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    You're talking about bike paths? Not what we're debating here.

    -Walt
    The Devil is in the detail Walt.... This is now for the greater area, huge area up here..

    Pedelecs are allowed on pathways and trails, except where bicycles are prohibited.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by injected59 View Post
    With all due respect, just because Canada defines something as so, it doesn't make it so.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Fully understand and respectfully I was just showing that things can change letting us have PAS and classic bicycles co-existing on trail and pathways environments. Also very happy I haven't wasted 9k on a PAS bike lol.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountie View Post
    Fully understand and respectfully I was just showing that things can change letting us have PAS and classic bicycles co-existing on trail and pathways environments. Also very happy I haven't wasted 9k on a PAS bike lol.
    First off, they are not "classic" bikes, just bikes and ebikes, which are not bikes anyway. Totally different user group and machine, should not even really be on MTBR because they are not bikes.
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMan View Post
    First off, they are not "classic" bikes, just bikes and ebikes, which are not bikes anyway. Totally different user group and machine, should not even really be on MTBR because they are not bikes.
    They are a bike but so is a Harley, they aren't a bicycle though.

    bi·cy·cle
    ˈbīsək(ə)l/
    noun
    1.
    a vehicle composed of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.
    synonyms: bike, cycle, two-wheeler, mountain bike, ten-speed, racing bike, recumbent, fixie; More
    from Wikipedia-

    A bicycle, also called a cycle or bike, is a human-powered, pedal-driven, single-track vehicle, having two wheels attached to a frame, one behind the other. A bicycle rider is called a cyclist, or bicyclist.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    They are a bike but so is a Harley, they aren't a bicycle though.



    from Wikipedia-
    I think most people got the jist of it, but thanks for making very clear. Is there anyway to start a campaign to have all ebike content removed from here?
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  64. #64
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    Division and isolationism isn't the answer, better to have everything out on the table.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMan View Post
    First off, they are not "classic" bikes, just bikes and ebikes, which are not bikes anyway. Totally different user group and machine, should not even really be on MTBR because they are not bikes.
    Sorry but not sure the word "bike" is exclusive to the pedal bike community anymore.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountie View Post
    Sorry but not sure the word "bike" is exclusive to the pedal bike community anymore.
    No, but bicycle is.

    "An e-bike is a bicycle that has an electric motor that can be used to move the bike."

    It does not say it is still a bicycle but rather that once you add an electric motor, it is an ebike. Just like:
    A "Jack and Coke" is coke that has had Jack Daniels added to it. Good luck giving a minor a few of those and then trying to claim it was a still just a "coke" in court.
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  67. #67
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    The Canadian regs as posted by mr. Mountie don't make sense to me.

    For one thing bike path speed limits are so freaking low "20kmh-10kmh whichever is posted" that one hardly would need an e assist unless disabled but they have their own rules anyway.

    What really makes no sense is their separation of pas and throttle. PAS does activate the motor by pedaling but you can easily put the level of assist high enough so that you have to do no more than just turn the cranks exerting 0 human energy aka ghost pedaling and go as fast as the legally allowed speed.of 32kmh. With a throttle one just uses a different appendage to achieve the same allowable speed before it shuts down. Ghost pedaling is optional.

    Even if one decides to skirt the legal limits with PAS to go faster via dongling one could still just ghost pedal even with a torque sensing system.

    At the end of the day the appendage that matters the most in regards to responsible e biking is the ugliest part of your body. Your mind.

    Sorry that this has nothing to do with trail access but that seems to be well covered ad nauseum.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    The Canadian regs as posted by mr. Mountie don't make sense to me.

    For one thing bike path speed limits are so freaking low "20kmh-10kmh whichever is posted" that one hardly would need an e assist unless disabled but they have their own rules anyway.

    What really makes no sense is their separation of pas and throttle. PAS does activate the motor by pedaling but you can easily put the level of assist high enough so that you have to do no more than just turn the cranks exerting 0 human energy aka ghost pedaling and go as fast as the legally allowed speed.of 32kmh. With a throttle one just uses a different appendage to achieve the same allowable speed before it shuts down. Ghost pedaling is optional.

    Even if one decides to skirt the legal limits with PAS to go faster via dongling one could still just ghost pedal even with a torque sensing system.

    At the end of the day the appendage that matters the most in regards to responsible e biking is the ugliest part of your body. Your mind.

    Sorry that this has nothing to do with trail access but that seems to be well covered ad nauseum.
    Nauseum ? agreed read the regs it says clearly path and trail.... if you have ridden both types of assisted bikes you would see why they have made a allowance for PAS but not for power on demand. The way it was before made no sense to us.... 20kph speed limit on paths makes good sense I believe all trails should have the same limit for the safety of hikers and families...

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountie View Post
    .... if you have ridden both types of assisted bikes you would see why they have made a allowance for PAS but not for power on demand. The way it was before made no sense to us.... 20kph speed limit on paths makes good sense I believe all trails should have the same limit for the safety of hikers and families...
    If speeds are the same then why not power on demand?

    And why exclude power on demand or class 2 even if they are just a little faster than class 1? It seems totally hypocritical to me that e-bike equality proponents are ok with machines that are just a little faster than bicycles but not ok with slightly more powerful motorbikes.

    The 15mph speed limit is arbitrary and unenforceable, human powered vs. non isn't.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    If speeds are the same then why not power on demand?

    And why exclude power on demand or class 2 even if they are just a little faster than class 1? It seems totally hypocritical to me that e-bike equality proponents are ok with machines that are just a little faster than bicycles but not ok with slightly more powerful motorbikes.

    The 15mph speed limit is arbitrary and unenforceable, human powered vs. non isn't.
    If you can't get 20mph on a regular bike you should find a steeper hill.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post

    What really makes no sense is their separation of pas and throttle. PAS does activate the motor by pedaling but you can easily put the level of assist high enough so that you have to do no more than just turn the cranks exerting 0 human energy aka ghost pedaling and go as fast as the legally allowed speed.of 32kmh. With a throttle one just uses a different appendage to achieve the same allowable speed before it shuts down. Ghost pedaling is optional.
    It's a visual thing that a lot of people fall for. If you see pedals turning, it appears more like a bicycle. IMO, the the method of activation for the motor isn't really important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    No, but bicycle is.

    "An e-bike is a bicycle that has an electric motor that can be used to move the bike."

    It does not say it is still a bicycle but rather that once you add an electric motor, it is an ebike. Just like:
    A "Jack and Coke" is coke that has had Jack Daniels added to it. Good luck giving a minor a few of those and then trying to claim it was a still just a "coke" in court.
    Not true! My jack and coke is a Jack w/coke added to it!
    Please don't get butt hurt if I pass you uphill on my ebike or Pivot 429 Trail.

  73. #73
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    I'm a convert as well-unicorn-machete.jpg

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by injected59 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	UNICORN-MACHETE.jpg 
Views:	52 
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ID:	1142578

    lolololol! Now THATS what I call a bicycle!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountie View Post
    Nauseum ? agreed read the regs it says clearly path and trail.... if you have ridden both types of assisted bikes you would see why they have made a allowance for PAS but not for power on demand. The way it was before made no sense to us.... 20kph speed limit on paths makes good sense I believe all trails should have the same limit for the safety of hikers and families...
    Almost nothing in Canada makes sense to those in the USA. I thought it was just 9 months of winter and 3 months of poor skiing there? Fighting an uphill battle in another country with different norms and laws. Yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Almost nothing in Canada makes sense to those in the USA.
    Almost nothing outside of these them here Yoooonited States makes sense to us 'Muricans!

    FTFY


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    Mountie, great to read that there are people out there in the same situation as myself. I had to give away mountain biking some 6 years ago as injuries from years of motox and Quad riding had taken its toll on my right knee and skiing dealt to my right ankle. After a long layoff from riding cycles I too found a way to get out back on the trails and enjoy it once more. My saviour came in the form of a Specialized Levo as well.
    I'm knocking on 50, so the age factor is also against me, but these bikes give me the ability to ride with my mates who are fit and able to handle the steep uphill climbs here in New Zealand. On the climbs I have the bike set to a low assist and only ever stay with my buddies.
    What upsets me the most, is the total arrogance of some people to assist bike on these forums. It's like it's a competition that they see they will only but lose because some are on ebikes. Their arrogance blinds them from the facts you stated in your original post as to why you've taken up riding an assist bike, and it's not a competition!!
    Good on you for doing what I too have recently done, in getting out there and enjoying yourself once more.

    It's about time some realise that if assist bikes are not for them, it doesn't mean they should be banned, or called some other name, and their riders should be hated on.

    I'm glad that the reception I have found out on the trails here in New Zealand is one of intrigue and curiosity, rather than the hate I read on forums.

    Haters will always be haters, but it's easy to hate when your hiding behind a keyboard....

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post

    Haters will always be haters, but it's easy to hate when your hiding behind a keyboard....
    Many of you ebikers seem to constantly be whining about ebike haters but I see very little of that here. Just because most of us stick to the true definition of a bicycle and therefore don't consider an ebike to be a bicycle, doesn't make us haters. I also hike/trailrun on trails that don't allow mountain bikes and I would oppose mountain bikes riding on them, but I am not a mountain bike hater because of that.
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Mountie, great to read that there are people out there in the same situation as myself. I had to give away mountain biking some 6 years ago as injuries from years of motox and Quad riding had taken its toll on my right knee and skiing dealt to my right ankle. After a long layoff from riding cycles I too found a way to get out back on the trails and enjoy it once more. My saviour came in the form of a Specialized Levo as well.
    I'm knocking on 50, so the age factor is also against me, but these bikes give me the ability to ride with my mates who are fit and able to handle the steep uphill climbs here in New Zealand. On the climbs I have the bike set to a low assist and only ever stay with my buddies.
    What upsets me the most, is the total arrogance of some people to assist bike on these forums. It's like it's a competition that they see they will only but lose because some are on ebikes. Their arrogance blinds them from the facts you stated in your original post as to why you've taken up riding an assist bike, and it's not a competition!!
    Good on you for doing what I too have recently done, in getting out there and enjoying yourself once more.

    It's about time some realise that if assist bikes are not for them, it doesn't mean they should be banned, or called some other name, and their riders should be hated on.

    I'm glad that the reception I have found out on the trails here in New Zealand is one of intrigue and curiosity, rather than the hate I read on forums.

    Haters will always be haters, but it's easy to hate when your hiding behind a keyboard....
    It is absolutely not hate. Here in MA, USA, not legal for the most part. Crowded suburbs with houses sprawling. roads and so many people and trail access battles. Adding a motor to a bike makes it something else. Going on 54 here. Wait, I'm older, less fit and got some aches and issues. What ev. Just not my cup of tea. And not why I go out into the woods and explore.

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    The jackass e-negatives here keep claiming that e-proponents make the statement they are the same as bikes even to those that admit they're different, but disagree with the equally inane remarks that they're motorcycles. I think we should start calling them "Sam" or "Fred" to let those who are dumb enough to make those comments realize that e-bikes are different. As to comments about us being our own worst enemies, that'll never be the case considering most of the posters here. BTW, KP, I've been riding e-bikes for almost three years and have never experienced a problem on the trail, only the computer-jockeys on this site.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Haters will always be haters, but it's easy to hate when your hiding behind a keyboard....
    Exactly-

    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    The jackass e-negatives here keep claiming that e-proponents make the statement they are the same as bikes even to those that admit they're different, but disagree with the equally inane remarks that they're motorcycles. I think we should start calling them "Sam" or "Fred" to let those who are dumb enough to make those comments realize that e-bikes are different. As to comments about us being our own worst enemies, that'll never be the case considering most of the posters here. BTW, KP, I've been riding e-bikes for almost three years and have never experienced a problem on the trail, only the computer-jockeys on this site.
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  82. #82
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    How come in every one of these threads in the ebike section there are Jagoffs that have to piss and moan about ebikes? Why cant they just mind there own business, if there not interested in a ebike than dont buy one....Im not interested in buying a specialized so therefore I dont read anything in the specialized section...im not over there bashing there bike, only an idiot would do that.

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    JP, great to hear from you and hope things are good in the high country. Been riding MTB almost exclusively (except errands) even though it's been 100 or so here (at least not the 120 in AZ). Was going on an e-MTB ride tonight (fire road, strictly legal) with my wife, but jury duty beckoned her (she wouldn't get all tatted up like I suggested and got selected). To the OP, sorry for the misdirection, but I'm an on and off convert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sml-2727 View Post
    How come in every one of these threads in the ebike section there are Jagoffs that have to piss and moan about ebikes? Why cant they just mind there own business, if there not interested in a ebike than dont buy one....Im not interested in buying a specialized so therefore I dont read anything in the specialized section...im not over there bashing there bike, only an idiot would do that.
    This would be a mountain bike site. MTBR. Go to an e bike site, start there.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by sml-2727 View Post
    ...Im not interested in buying a specialized so therefore I dont read anything in the specialized section...im not over there bashing there bike, only an idiot would do that.
    If that Specialized had the potential to cause trail access issues would you be interested?

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    This would be a mountain bike site. MTBR. Go to an e bike site, start there.
    Take that issue up with the admins of the website...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    If that Specialized had the potential to cause trail access issues would you be interested?
    I get what you're saying.

    But pillows have the potential to be deadly weapons. Someone can kill another person with a pillow (smothering them). I'm positive it's happened many times in history - so should we ban pillows now because of the potential to kill? Of course not.

    Just like the pillow won't be killing anyone by itself, an e-bike isn't going to go full-on Skynet and screw things up ("cause trail access issues") by itself.

    Not old news here, but it's not the bike/bicycle/e-bike/unicycle (whatever the machine), it's the idiots on the machine that'll ruin it for EVERYONE with unsafe riding, poaching, trail damage, etc.

    I can't tell you how many times I've seen riders on bombing down a multi use trail - zooming by hikers at 30 mph at less than an arm's-length away. Or not yielding to horses (I live in an equestrian neighborhood and I've seen this many times). Or cutting across/ignoring established trails. Or riding where they're not supposed to be riding. On "regular" MTBs. You don't need an e-bike to do any of that jackassery.

    It's the people riding. (Newsflash!)

    Now, back to the OP's reason for posting... (and like I said on the other "I'm a convert" thread) -- I'm glad you've found something you enjoy!

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Mountie, great to read that there are people out there in the same situation as myself. I had to give away mountain biking some 6 years ago as injuries from years of motox and Quad riding had taken its toll on my right knee and skiing dealt to my right ankle. After a long layoff from riding cycles I too found a way to get out back on the trails and enjoy it once more. My saviour came in the form of a Specialized Levo as well.
    I'm knocking on 50, so the age factor is also against me, but these bikes give me the ability to ride with my mates who are fit and able to handle the steep uphill climbs here in New Zealand. On the climbs I have the bike set to a low assist and only ever stay with my buddies.
    What upsets me the most, is the total arrogance of some people to assist bike on these forums. It's like it's a competition that they see they will only but lose because some are on ebikes. Their arrogance blinds them from the facts you stated in your original post as to why you've taken up riding an assist bike, and it's not a competition!!
    Good on you for doing what I too have recently done, in getting out there and enjoying yourself once more.

    It's about time some realise that if assist bikes are not for them, it doesn't mean they should be banned, or called some other name, and their riders should be hated on.

    I'm glad that the reception I have found out on the trails here in New Zealand is one of intrigue and curiosity, rather than the hate I read on forums.

    Haters will always be haters, but it's easy to hate when your hiding behind a keyboard....
    How can you not say it's a motorcycle? If you can't ride a real bike because of all your old injuries but a e-bike with you keep up with all the young guys on super steep climbs, but without it your a blob on the couch dying a slow death? There is no way you can consider it a bike.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    How can you not say it's a motorcycle? If you can't ride a real bike because of all your old injuries but a e-bike with you keep up with all the young guys on super steep climbs, but without it your a blob on the couch dying a slow death? There is no way you can consider it a bike.

    Really !!!! Your jumping on the Motorbike band wagon. I've ridden motorbikes for over 35 years and the Levo is certainly NOT a motorbike. Its a PEDAL ASSIST CYCLE !!!!!
    No, its not a Cycle in the true form, any the vast majority of Ebike riders would agree as it does have a electric ASSIST motor, but it is more like a Mountain BIKE than a MOTOR BIKE.
    But, The self riotousness of some shines through.
    Not once did I say that I ride with "Young guys", in fact I don't. They are all a similar age, if not slightly older than myself. We don't enter competitions. We don't ride competitively. So WHY CANT I RIDE MY EBIKE ALONG SIDE THEM IF THATS SO WHAT I CHOOSE???
    And I'd like to see you call me a "BLOB" to my face. How about you have fun on the type of bike you like to ride, and stick to the threads that are relevant to you, and let people who want to have a discussion about their experiences riding their bikes of choice do so in their threads i.e. HERE.

    P.S. Please learn how to make a sentence that makes sense next time, It may help people actually understand the dribble that you spurting..

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Really !!!! Your jumping on the Motorbike band wagon. I've ridden motorbikes for over 35 years and the Levo is certainly NOT a motorbike. Its a PEDAL ASSIST CYCLE !!!!!
    No, its not a Cycle in the true form, any the vast majority of Ebike riders would agree as it does have a electric ASSIST motor, but it is more like a Mountain BIKE than a MOTOR BIKE.
    But, The self riotousness of some shines through.
    Not once did I say that I ride with "Young guys", in fact I don't. They are all a similar age, if not slightly older than myself. We don't enter competitions. We don't ride competitively. So WHY CANT I RIDE MY EBIKE ALONG SIDE THEM IF THATS SO WHAT I CHOOSE???
    And I'd like to see you call me a "BLOB" to my face. How about you have fun on the type of bike you like to ride, and stick to the threads that are relevant to you, and let people who want to have a discussion about their experiences riding their bikes of choice do so in their threads i.e. HERE.

    P.S. Please learn how to make a sentence that makes sense next time, It may help people actually understand the dribble that you spurting..
    Calm down blob, no reason for personal attacks. I am at work and only had a couple of seconds to reply. I was using the l excuses you guys have. I can't keep up with the young guys, its too hard because my knee hurts, I can't go as far, if it wasn't for the ebike I would never get off the couch....blah blah blah. Then you say the ebike doesn't really help, it is just assist, it's slower down hill. My point is if it just gives you a little help, get off the couch and ride a real bike. If you don't want to do that, start your own trails, your own advocacy groups. Start your own MTBR and you guys can suck your own ***** and tell each other about the great work outs your getting. Stop calling it a bike. It's not.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Calm down blob, no reason for personal attacks. I am at work and only had a couple of seconds to reply. I was using the l excuses you guys have. I can't keep up with the young guys, its too hard because my knee hurts, I can't go as far, if it wasn't for the ebike I would never get off the couch....blah blah blah. Then you say the ebike doesn't really help, it is just assist, it's slower down hill. My point is if it just gives you a little help, get off the couch and ride a real bike. If you don't want to do that, start your own trails, your own advocacy groups. Start your own MTBR and you guys can suck your own ***** and tell each other about the great work outs your getting. Stop calling it a bike. It's not.
    It's a bike.

    Bike - noun a bicycle or motorcycle
    Verb- used without object, to ride a bike

    Bicycle a vehicle with two wheels tandem, handle bars for steering a saddle seat and pedals by which it's propelled

    Motorcycle a two wheeled vehicle that is powered by a motor and HAS NO PEDALS.

    It's the red headed step child but it's still a bike.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Calm down blob, no reason for personal attacks. I am at work and only had a couple of seconds to reply. I was using the l excuses you guys have. I can't keep up with the young guys, its too hard because my knee hurts, I can't go as far, if it wasn't for the ebike I would never get off the couch....blah blah blah. Then you say the ebike doesn't really help, it is just assist, it's slower down hill. My point is if it just gives you a little help, get off the couch and ride a real bike. If you don't want to do that, start your own trails, your own advocacy groups. Start your own MTBR and you guys can suck your own ***** and tell each other about the great work outs your getting. Stop calling it a bike. It's not.
    Man, your reply really shows your maturity....You call me Blob, Twice, and you say that I have personally attacked YOU!!!!! Please quote as to where this "attack happened" as it seems it is not as evident as yours i.e. the first sentence in your quoted reply!!!!
    Again, the initial post on this thread, was from a keen Ebike rider, who wanted to share his Ebike experience, like some us want to. How about taking your narrow minded opinion back to the NON ebike thread and at least give us the curtesy to be able to discuss the form of Biking we enjoy.
    Last edited by KiwiPhil; 06-21-2017 at 07:10 PM.

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    #10RBUST, Love the "It's the red headed step child but it's still a bike" line, brilliant.
    However, it seems impossible to reason with some people.

    A motorbike is a bike. A push bike is a Bike, A downhill bike is a Bike, A cross country bike is a Bike. A quad bike is a Bike, Yet he argues the point that an E-bike is not a Bike !!!!!!!

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Calm down blob, no reason for personal attacks. I am at work and only had a couple of seconds to reply. I was using the l excuses you guys have. I can't keep up with the young guys, its too hard because my knee hurts, I can't go as far, if it wasn't for the ebike I would never get off the couch....blah blah blah. Then you say the ebike doesn't really help, it is just assist, it's slower down hill. My point is if it just gives you a little help, get off the couch and ride a real bike. If you don't want to do that, start your own trails, your own advocacy groups. Start your own MTBR and you guys can suck your own ***** and tell each other about the great work outs your getting. Stop calling it a bike. It's not.
    The ghey is strong with this one.

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    That's it, I'm taking my Levo and lining up at the outdoor mx nationals this weekend in Tennessee. Surely they have a class for my motorbike! Can't wait to clear the uphill double with all my added speed. Hell might even use Turbo mode and holeshot!
    Please don't get butt hurt if I pass you uphill on my ebike or Pivot 429 Trail.

  96. #96
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    And……………………………this thread is heading toward being locked.

    And a quad bike is definitely NOT a bike. That may be the stupidest thing I've seen today.
    "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -Douglas Adams.

  97. #97
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    Go through this thread swinging the ban hammer.
    Nothing that's worth anything is ever easy - M. Hall

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Go through this thread swinging the ban hammer.
    Why?

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    And……………………………this thread is heading toward being locked.

    And a quad bike is definitely NOT a bike. That may be the stupidest thing I've seen today.
    Yet I bet in a conversation were you were discussing quads, you would call it a Quad bike. We do here, and that's what they are. So, why then can an Electric assist bike not be called a BIKE? and the simple answer of "because its not a bike, just doesn't cut it"

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    Yet I bet in a conversation were you were discussing quads, you would call it a Quad bike. We do here, and that's what they are. So, why then can an Electric assist bike not be called a BIKE? and the simple answer of "because its not a bike, just doesn't cut it"
    Just because someone came up with the term "Quad Bike" does not make it a bike anymore than if calling soccer ball a bike makes it a bike. If I google "quad bike", this is what I get:

    I'm a convert as well-stupid.png

    You do know where the "bi" in "bike" comes from, don't you?

    I have not said that an electric assist bike is not a bike; I have said it is not a bicycle and I stand by that. Go tell a Harley rider he is riding a bicycle and see if he agrees, just because it is a bike does not make it a bicycle.
    "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -Douglas Adams.

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