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  1. #1
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    How Can We Grow This Forum?

    The owner of MTBR created this forum as a "vehicle" to discuss products, components, procedures and other e-MTB aspects to increase knowledge about them. Unfortunately, a group of e-negatives has continued to attack proponents and turn almost every issue into one regarding access. The moderator(s), and I realize Walt doesn't moderate this forum, have exhibited consistent bias toward e-negatives by, for instance banning e-positives, but never AFAICT e-negatives no matter how egregious or off the wall their comments were. This further diluted the number of proponents here. How can we counteract this negative direction?

    1) Promote a Moderator with the stones to ban e-negatives who divert a discussion or make stupid comments like an e-bike is a moped. Additionally, it would be nice to have an example of the so-called closing speed "problem" before being allowed to say that a guy going 20-50 mph down a hill is influenced by someone climbing at 6 mph instead of 4 mph.
    2) Ban anyone who discusses access anywhere except in its own thread.
    3) Don't allow any negative comments about e-bikes unless you've ridden one or have had an issue with someone riding one. Most of the BS negativity here is all made up on the couch.

    Any more ideas? BTW, if you can't contribute some positive information, please just tell your Mommy about how mad you are.

  2. #2
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  3. #3
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    My guess is that the fervor against e-mtbs will calm down somewhat as legal definitions and access becomes better defined by local, state and federal agencies regulate trails.
    That may take some time.

    In the meantime, better forum moderation might help.

  4. #4
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    Banning and deleting is not a solution for me. But enforcing a strict policy where all off subject and provocative messages are moved to a single thread could be a step in the right direction.

    And of course the "hot" subjects must have their own threads as these discussions should also be here, but simply not everywhere.

  5. #5
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    It's ironic to see someone use a mommy reference while asking for special protection. But I do see that you are really just adding a thread counter to the one questioning whether there should be an e-bike forum at mtbr. So touche' my good friend.
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  6. #6
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    I believe that there needs to be a clear distinction between which type of E-Bikes we are talking about. i.e. have a "Pedal Assist" sub-forum, where the issues of Electric Motor bikes and non pedal assist are segregated.
    That way the E-Bike negatives can continue to rant about the modified beasts that do damage the trails, and do have high closing speeds, unlike pedal assists, and leave genuine riders of pedal assist e-bikes to have discussions on our bikes without the rhetoric.

  7. #7
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    It might be helpful if new users do some reading before they do any posting, specifically reading the forum rules, more specifically the e-Bike forum rules...... And then following them.

    Also the only Moderator assigned to this section is Pro-Ebike in a big way. If you think a particular user is being rude or violating the rules of this site use the report funtion on the post in question and the Moderator assigned(not me) will get an email telling them to take a look.....

    And while I do not need to defend myself, I have deleted many posts from what you call "e-haters" per site rules regarding name calling, taking threads off-topic and post designed to incite arguments. When I delete them they are fully gone from your view, only another moderator can look at them. If you want to know why a certain user was banned recently feel free to PM me. He made some very disgusting comments about others body parts that were wholly unacceptable on this site after he had been warned once. I happened to catch his post within a few hours so not many people saw it, but his post is still there if another mod wants to review it.
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  8. #8
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    Banning things is not the answer. I think that (eventually) e-bikes will become more accepted and the people who ride pedal assist and non pedal assist will work together to further mountain biking in general. There is strength in numbers and it will make the most sense in the long run.

  9. #9
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    This needs to be a two way street. Any ebiker who promotes poaching, advocates or suggests modifying an ebike to outside legal limits or contributes to slandering those who disagree need to be censored. If someone has a legitimate point or anecdote they'd like to share, they shouldn't be attacked for it. Ebikes are still a huge grey area and as such, there is still literature and legal code calling them mopeds. It's a legitimate point and if it offends, well, get over it. Or, discuss ways to change it. There need to be more discussions here about how ebikers are actually fighting for access and who they are talking to to make it happen.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    This needs to be a two way street. Any ebiker who promotes poaching, advocates or suggests modifying an ebike to outside legal limits or contributes to slandering those who disagree need to be censored. If someone has a legitimate point or anecdote they'd like to share, they shouldn't be attacked for it. Ebikes are still a huge grey area...
    Not totally on board with censoring... but I get the point and otherwise agree with you.

  11. #11
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    Censor, as in correct or modify. Unless someone downright earns it, I don't like banning. We don't need name calling on either side.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    The owner of MTBR created this forum as a "vehicle" to discuss products, components, procedures and other e-MTB aspects to increase knowledge about them. Unfortunately, a group of e-negatives has continued to attack proponents and turn almost every issue into one regarding access. The moderator(s), and I realize Walt doesn't moderate this forum, have exhibited consistent bias toward e-negatives by, for instance banning e-positives, but never AFAICT e-negatives no matter how egregious or off the wall their comments were. This further diluted the number of proponents here. How can we counteract this negative direction?

    1) Promote a Moderator with the stones to ban e-negatives who divert a discussion or make stupid comments like an e-bike is a moped. Additionally, it would be nice to have an example of the so-called closing speed "problem" before being allowed to say that a guy going 20-50 mph down a hill is influenced by someone climbing at 6 mph instead of 4 mph.
    2) Ban anyone who discusses access anywhere except in its own thread.
    3) Don't allow any negative comments about e-bikes unless you've ridden one or have had an issue with someone riding one. Most of the BS negativity here is all made up on the couch.

    Any more ideas? BTW, if you can't contribute some positive information, please just tell your Mommy about how mad you are.
    Yes, this works great at a certain colored house that a certain orange headed person runs. You can say how great something is, and anyone that disagrees needs to be banned.

    Call your own mom and ask her if a bike has a motor, what is it.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  13. #13
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    Move this forum to its own Electric Mountain Moped site where it can bask in the glory of its own existence without the pesky 100% human powered bicycle crowd throwing shade on its magnificence!

    That's what I would do.
    Safe riding,

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  14. #14
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    I tend to agree that a distinct URL would be the way to go for the forum (and associated though seldom used trail/review/classified sections).

    -Walt

  15. #15
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    You guys are missing the entire point.

    This site, and every sub-forum on it, exists to generate page-views and clicks, almost without exception. If PVs and clicks are up, only one thing would contravene that: a strong decrease in repeat visitors, i.e. users who were so pissed off they were logging off and not returning.

    I would be willing to bet that this sub-forum is doing just fine on that, despite (actually, because of) the controversy. Its certainly generating a lot of pageviews, and by extension, clicks. And, anti-ebikers probably aren't exiting the site because of the controversy, and pro-ebikers probably aren't either, except for a few, which becomes par for the course.

    You are not asking for the forum to grow, its growing just fine. You are asking for a safe space - that won't happen until that becomes more profitable than the forum as it exists today.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    You are not asking for the forum to grow, its growing just fine. You are asking for a safe space - that won't happen until that becomes more profitable than the forum as it exists today.
    No more mean and nasty trigger words?

  17. #17
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    Let's just build a wall around the e-bike forum and only allow pro-ebikers in. If you don't like it, then get the heck out of my forum!

  18. #18
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    Someday the owner will decide that this could be a valuable forum. I'll try to help it go forward at that time. This was just to elicit suggestions on how to accomplish it. There's a much different skill set here than any other e-forum; too bad we can't develop it positively. But, if not, no big deal. I've got enough bikes of all kinds, a plethora of places to ride and people to ride with when desired, so let the chips fall where they may.

  19. #19
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    You should just read the forums that don't bring up access for the forums that don't insist that a motor on a bike is not a motor. Like the Levo spec, with less than 20 replies, or the ABS thread with 0 replies. Maybe check out that contorversial Ebike at sea otter and those 6 replies. The Ebike forum would be a ghost town if you actually talked about Ebikes and admitted what the are. I saw on here today, they are not pedal assist they are motor assist, and until you can admit that, they will never be accepted by REAL MOUNTAIN BIKERS.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I saw on here today, they are not pedal assist they are motor assist, and until you can admit that, they will never be accepted by REAL MOUNTAIN BIKERS.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    I believe that there needs to be a clear distinction between which type of E-Bikes we are talking about. i.e. have a "Pedal Assist" sub-forum...
    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    This needs to be a two way street. Any ebiker who promotes poaching, advocates or suggests modifying an ebike to outside legal limits or contributes to slandering those who disagree need to be censored.
    These are good ideas. Focus on legal pedal-assist even if the definition is not the same depending on location.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    they will never be accepted by REAL MOUNTAIN BIKERS.
    Seems someone has put himself on a pedestal.

    Funny thing that I note, most of the people here TRYING to discuss E-bikes, are "REAL MOUNTAIN BIKERS" and have disclosed that they, like myself, still have and use "REAL MOUNTAIN BIKES".

    How a new sub forum on a new offshoot of the sport is supposed miraculously have thousands of instant replies, I don't know. But I've taken some good info from them already, and can only see it growing.

  23. #23
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    Be even better when those who have nothing to say, but can send private messages which called me a dirty name leave for good.

  24. #24
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    Based on what I've seen on other forums, ebike sub forums on non ebike forums are small and usually quiet because like here, the relative population is small. On ebike specific forums which are very active, the emtb sub forums while more active than here, are also relatively small because most of the ebikes sold are not emtbs. Part of it is the fact that emtbs are a niche market in a niche market, the other is that any forum needs to have critical mass to get people to check in and post regularly. If there's only a few new replies a day and a handful of new threads a week, most people move on. Since I wanted to be part of an ebike forum, which I do, I go to where the ebikers are, where there's already a community. I don't feel any obligation to try to create a new one here. It's an amusing sideshow though.

  25. #25
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    So this need to be a pro ebike forum? Hmmm. Dissent and civil discussion have merit as well. 27.5 is better than 29er? Plus are better than both? Fat tires are better than all? Strava does no wrong. Etc. Civil discussion seems appropriate.

  26. #26
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    What all you pro e-moped riders don't get or can't fathom is not only thinking about your selves and being selfish, you are in the minority of people who might want or use an assisted bike without modifying it, the majority of people looking at e-moped, are looking for as much power as they can as attested to by the many videos on YouTube about such vehicles or how to mod them to such.

    As said, when your group admits to the fact that you are your own group and stops trying to hide behind and piggyback on regular, HUMAN POWERED MTBs and all the issues associated with this, then you will gain "regular" MTBers respect and acceptance.
    Last edited by LyNx; 06-28-2017 at 10:16 AM.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    you are in the minority of people who might want or use an assisted bike without modifying it
    You are 100% wrong on this.

    It may be the case for homemade realisations but the "from the shelf" market that is growing is not like that.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    You are 100% wrong on this.

    It may be the case for homemade realisations but the "from the shelf" market that is growing is not like that.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    What all you pro e-scooter riders don't get or can't fathom is not only thinking about your selves and being selfish, you are in the minority of people who might want or use an assisted bike without modifying it, the majority of people looking at e-scooters, are looking for as much power as they can as attested to by the many videos on YouTube about such vehicles or how to mod them to such.

    As said, when your group admits to the fact that you are your own group and stops trying to hide behind and pggyback on regular, HUMAN POWERED MTBs and all the issues associated with this, then you will gain "regular" MTBers respect and acceptance.
    A scooter doesn't have pedals. Look at the rules for the forum. And, aren't you better off sending private messages to individuals than exhibiting your ignorance to everyone?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    You should just read the forums that don't bring up access for the forums that don't insist that a motor on a bike is not a motor. Like the Levo spec, with less than 20 replies, or the ABS thread with 0 replies. Maybe check out that contorversial Ebike at sea otter and those 6 replies. The Ebike forum would be a ghost town if you actually talked about Ebikes and admitted what the are. I saw on here today, they are not pedal assist they are motor assist, and until you can admit that, they will never be accepted by REAL MEN.
    There, I fixed it for you.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    What all you pro e-moped riders don't get or can't fathom is not only thinking about your selves and being selfish, you are in the minority of people who might want or use an assisted bike without modifying it, the majority of people looking at e-moped, are looking for as much power as they can as attested to by the many videos on YouTube about such vehicles or how to mod them to such.

    As said, when your group admits to the fact that you are your own group and stops trying to hide behind and piggyback on regular, HUMAN POWERED MTBs and all the issues associated with this, then you will gain "regular" MTBers respect and acceptance.
    That's like saying all gun owners are going to shoot up their workplace or some such nonsense. I would say the people that want to mod their bikes for more power are the minority.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    Someday the owner will decide that this could be a valuable forum. I'll try to help it go forward at that time. This was just to elicit suggestions on how to accomplish it. There's a much different skill set here than any other e-forum; too bad we can't develop it positively. But, if not, no big deal. I've got enough bikes of all kinds, a plethora of places to ride and people to ride with when desired, so let the chips fall where they may.
    It is a valuable forum, its generating lots of views, comments, and clicks. This thread is no exception, this may generate another 300 posts and 10,000 views before its done.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    What all you pro e-moped riders don't get or can't fathom is not only thinking about your selves and being selfish, you are in the minority of people who might want or use an assisted bike without modifying it, the majority of people looking at e-moped, are looking for as much power as they can as attested to by the many videos on YouTube about such vehicles or how to mod them to such.

    As said, when your group admits to the fact that you are your own group and stops trying to hide behind and piggyback on regular, HUMAN POWERED MTBs and all the issues associated with this, then you will gain "regular" MTBers respect and acceptance.
    I wholeheartedly agree with this. People are just looking for an excuse to let motors on multi use trails. I think once land managers realize this, it will put an end to the debate quickly.

  34. #34
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    So, what should happen now Lemonaid and LyNx, in fairness to those reading this forum, is for you to disclose to us what you consider as being e-mopeds?
    I do not consider myself to have a e-moped, I have a Pedal Assist E-bike. From what I can determine, you are using the phrase E-moped as a condescending and derogatory manner even though it seems to have been emphasised that this should not happen? So, please enlighten us. Thanks

    And it was noted LyNx,that your post originally read "pro e-scooter rider"

  35. #35
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    So you e-assist bike is a moped since it has a MOtor and PEDals.

    I'm not using it to be derogatory I'm using it to make it easy to distinguish from a 100% human powered mountain bike.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    So you e-assist bike is a moped since it has a MOtor and PEDals.

    I'm not using it to be derogatory I'm using it to make it easy to distinguish from a 100% human powered mountain bike.
    There is a great paradox here - Ironically, the term moped is canonically derogatory, because they are almost uniformly viewed as puny, under-powered motorcycles. So those here viewing the term as derogatory, are doing so in some part due to the subconscious, inescapable inadequacy of mopeds, and by extension, e-bikes, compared to real motorcycles. If what e-bikers claim about e-bikes is true, they should embrace the moped moniker as reinforcement of e-bikes docility and meagerness.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    There is a great paradox here - Ironically, the term moped is canonically derogatory, because they are almost uniformly viewed as puny, under-powered motorcycles.
    That's you projecting your biases on the term.

    a motorized bicycle that has pedals in addition to a low-powered gasoline engine designed for low-speed operation.
    From dictionary.com ^^^. I added "electric mountain" to moped for your pedal assist machine to denote it's meant for offroad use and powered by a battery vs. gasoline. I don't use the term in a derogatory way.

    I was calling all electric mountain motorcycles...motorcycles because I think there are pragmatic difficulties distinguishing pedal assist from throttle operated versions of these machines.

    In listening to what proponents were saying in this forum about pedal assist being so different I relented and adopted the appropriate term - "moped" for the machines that require you to turn the pedals to activate the electric motor.

    If moped really bothers the collective "you". I'm okay calling them electric motorcycles. Maybe that sounds more macho and hardcore to you and you won't feel put down. If that's the case I'm okay with electric mountain motorcycle.
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  38. #38
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    vikb, do you mind distinguishing which region that you believe them to be legally determined as mopeds?
    I've posted here before, supported by links and excerpts from the legal definition (not the dictionary definition), that in NZ a pedal assist bike under 300w is classified as a Bicycle. You may find that disturbing....but, I would have thought legal definition trumps dictionary definition

    Would it not be easier just to refer to them as Pedal assist e-bikes?

  39. #39
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    I'm not suggesting a legal definition. I'm talking about the colloquial shorthand we can all use to understand what we are talking about.

    Secondly the motor vehicle code definition is not helpful when the use in question is not on public roads. As we've seen from the way land managers in a number of areas are responding to these machines they are not being considered the same as 100% human powered mountain bikes.

    Thirdly a lot [maybe all] the rancor that moped proponents are complaining about is due to the intentional attempt to lump these motorized cycles as mountain bikes. So terminology that makes the distinction clear is a good thing.

    Personally I'm good with:

    - mountain bike
    - moped
    - motorcycle/ATV

    Add in:

    - hiker
    - horse

    ...and you've covered most of the likely trail user categories.

    It would be easy terminology to use on signs and pretty easy to understand. If a land manager wants to give a moped the same access as a mountain bike they can, but they can also provide different access levels.
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  40. #40
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    So I guess the way to grow the forum is disscus terms.

    Bike
    Bicycle
    Ebike
    Moped
    Moto
    Motorcycle

    It's all anyone talks about over here.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1ORBUST View Post
    So I guess the way to grow the forum is disscus terms.

    Bike
    Bicycle
    Taint
    Moped
    Moto
    Motorcycle

    It's all anyone talks about over here.



    Taint bicycle and taint moped.

  42. #42
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    An electric mountain bike is not a moped or a motorcycle. You're all so worried about the freaking semantics and also worried about making sure that in every post and utterance people distinguish that it's a "new category all unto itself" and then in the next post call it a moped or a motorcycle....because it's pejorative and belittling BS. There's a small contigent of people who seemingly spend more time here mouthing off about ebikes than riding their pedal bikes. The rest of the world, pedal and ebike included, go about their days without the crap.

    It's an EMTB. Class 1 MTB. Electric mountain bike. Enough with the moped/motorcycle BS. You don't turn a throttle sit on it and ride.

  43. #43
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    To add to the silly semantic argument, a 750w, 20 mph class 1 ebike here is considered a moped almost everywhere else in the world. So, KiwiPhil should be able to call it one, since under his regs, it would be. Right?

  44. #44
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    I think we all know that it's not a moped but we're beating the moped BS into the ground because it makes us feel giddy because it's fun to make fun and adds to the anti sentiment.

    I think we also all know that if there was truly an interest in growing this forum the moderators and staff wouldn't allow the same haters to come into every thread, regardless of topic, bashing the poster, tossing out the terms moped and motorcycle as well as asking every member their name, rank, city state and town and serial number so they can customize their hater rhetoric to suit the individual poster.


    There's not one actual thread here that hasn't been ruined by people making snide comments. And it's allowed to happen each time. The same people, over and over and it just gets a pass. Conversely the actual emtbr who is posting in earnest and who has their thread crapped on by the gang here gets told to stop posting or has their post edited or removed for not using the right terminology, which is, of course, terminology that furthers the cause of anti mtb. This forum is going nowhere, and it's an active effort by a few haters and some mods who are empathetic to their cause.

    Meanwhile, in the actual world, Joe Murray is racing ebikes at Sea Otter, Gary Fisher is committed to them and so are quite a few others out there and it's not just a financial incentive. Hall of fame builders designers racers and people who grew the MTB cause and industry and were dealing with trail concerns and user conflicts before some of you were born.

    But, this forum, nah, it won't go anywhere because right now most people can't afford an ebike, it's a luxury, and what's new or different scares a lot of people and they mouth off, even if they don't know a damn thing about what they're talking about but they think they do, and they feel righteous about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    Hall of fame builders designers racers and people who grew the MTB cause and industry and were dealing with trail concerns and user conflicts before some of you were born.


    Not so, many of us here that have been mtbing since before the inception of mountain bikes and we're not so inclined to just give up and hand over hard won access. Stop calling them mountain bikes, stop trying to coat tail your access on ours and go form an emotorbike advocacy organization and go do your own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Not so, many of us here that have been mtbing since before the inception of mountain bikes and we're not so inclined to just give up and hand over hard won access. Stop calling them mountain bikes, stop trying to coat tail your access on ours and go form an emotorbike advocacy organization and go do your own.



    I've been mountain biking since the 80's. Unless you're Charlie Kelly don't even bother with that ish. Stop using YOU vs ME terminology. That's your hubris. Get it through your head that there are those of us out there with just as much provenance as you, if not more. Who have been riding and racing for decades who were trail builders and advocates before there was advocacy who are PRO EBIKE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    I've been mountain biking since the 80's. Unless you're Charlie Kelly don't even bother with that ish. Stop using YOU vs ME terminology. That's your hubris. Get it through your head that there are those of us out there with just as much provenance as you, if not more. Who have been riding and racing for decades who were trail builders and advocates before there was advocacy who are PRO EBIKE.

    BFD, we are not all pro emotorbike, get used to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    BFD, we are not all pro emotorbike, get used to it.
    And some of us are. You get used to it. Maybe stop trolling this forum day and night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    And some of us are. You get used to it. Maybe stop trolling this forum day and night.


    It's not in the best interests of mountain bikers.

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    Did you troll the 27.5 and 29er forum when they first came out too? Heck, with a 29'er any ham fisted dolt can ride over just about anything. You don't even have to really pick lines anymore. Is that mountain biking? Men women and children who never rode a 26 inch wheel are massing on the trails with bikes that are the comparative equivalent of monster trucks. Gosh, I wonder if 29'ers will allow people who don't know how to mountain bike to end up going down trails they don't belong on and get hurt? What if a guy with a heart condition buys a 29er and because of the big wheels he's gets past that filter log leading to the back country and he gets back there and has heart attack? What then? I mean, those are literally the stupid excuses being thrown out about ebikes.

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    I guess someone needs to tell Elon his Teslas aren't cars because they run on electric batteries?

    Ok, seriously Double Butted, if you would just ignore the terms you don't like and stay on the subject, it may work out better. But you're going to have to understand that this is a mountain biking site and the majority here do not consider ebikes to be mountain bikes. I am a pescatarian. I would not go on a vegan website and start telling them they need to consider me a vegan 'cause it's purty dern close and then not expect backlash.

    If you really want to grow this forum, you'll need to find a way to get along with the mountain bikers. If you don't like their terms, ignore it. Look for how you can find common ground. In another similar thread, I mentioned that I was on the fence on allowing ebikes on paved paths. One ebike guy responded to what I said and then another ebiker started complaining about posters (probably me) going off subject. Silentfoe mentioned that he advocates for ebikes for basic transportation. I don't think I saw any response from the ebikers on that. Yes, I know you want to talk about riding ebikes on trails but you need to start somewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I guess someone needs to tell Elon his Teslas aren't cars because they run on electric batteries?

    Ok, seriously Double Butted, if you would just ignore the terms you don't like and stay on the subject, it may work out better. But you're going to have to understand that this is a mountain biking site and the majority here do not consider ebikes to be mountain bikes. I am a pescatarian. I would not go on a vegan website and start telling them they need to consider me a vegan 'cause it's purty dern close and then not expect backlash.

    If you really want to grow this forum, you'll need to find a way to get along with the mountain bikers. If you don't like their terms, ignore it. Look for how you can find common ground. In another similar thread, I mentioned that I was on the fence on allowing ebikes on paved paths. One ebike guy responded to what I said and then another ebiker started complaining about posters (probably me) going off subject. Silentfoe mentioned that he advocates for ebikes for basic transportation. I don't think I saw any response from the ebikers on that. Yes, I know you want to talk about riding ebikes on trails but you need to start somewhere.
    Where is empirical evidence that the majority don't consider ebikes mountain bikes? The majority know little about them. Additionally I only see a handful of haters posting negatives but I see 40 or 50 people viewing this forum at any given time.

    I myself have made negative comments about them when I first heard about them. I imagined throttle driven bikes and a myriad of other incorrect assumptions that turned out to just not be the case. I also thought fat bikes were entirely stupid when people started showing up on those. I still don't know what I think about those. Where I live there aren't many ebikes at all. Most people have no idea what they are, how they feel to ride, how they even work. I took the time to learn about them. I didn't come to MTBR to do so though. If anyone were to come here where the (relatively few) haters take over every thread, they're going to get incorrect info. I guess that's why the haters persist with their sometimes logical, mostly illogical and silly comments about motorcycles and mopeds and harrowing tales of ebikes running over nuns hiking with orphans and of men having heart attacks because their battery ran out and they had to push the bike.

    I think it's an educational issue. I think until you get these bikes in front of people, in their hands, and them out riding on them or at the very least around them or test riding them, it's important to have a quality forum that explains the bikes and how they work. But, as I said, that's why the haters spend so much time typing "motorcycle" "atv" "moped" "death" "destruction" "only fat people" "only old people" "only new riders" "only people who are lazy" because they're working to color those perceptions.

    They work very hard to make sure each thread is hammered with these words and terms so that those reading don't realize that many if not most ebikers are are mountain bikers. Current standard bike mountain bikers. We are riders who have been riding for decades. Some of us are old school. We are young, we are old, are racers, we are strong, we are advocates, we are club members, trail builders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    Where is empirical evidence that the majority don't consider ebikes mountain bikes? The majority know little about them.
    Everyone knows they are motor assist and I'm guessing the majority of riders consider one of the defining elements of a mountain bike is that it's 100% human powered, so IMO most people do know enough about them to comment. You may not agree with that and possibly even the letter of the law may not agree but I do believe that empirical evidence supports that statement. Ask any child to name 3 things that describe a bicycle and I bet 1 of them is "pedal powered" 8/10 times. I realize in 10 or 20 years that may not be the case but thankfully (for me) it is for now.

    I hope you don't consider that hateful speech against electric bikes because it isn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Everyone knows they are motor assist and I'm guessing the majority of riders consider one of the defining elements of a mountain bike is that it's 100% human powered, so IMO most people do know enough about them to comment. You may not agree with that and possibly even the letter of the law may not agree but I do believe that empirical evidence supports that statement. Ask any child to name 3 things that describe a bicycle and I bet 1 of them is "pedal powered" 8/10 times. I realize in 10 or 20 years that may not be the case but thankfully (for me) it is for now.

    I hope you don't consider that hateful speech against electric bikes because it isn't.
    But defining elements change. At one time nobody thought a bicycle should be or could be ridden on trails, and here we are.

    Ask that same child to describe a motorcycle or moped and I bet one of the descriptors won't be "you pedal it". Right?

    And, for those who have not ridden an ebike, you don't just go through the motions when you pedal, you're putting in effort, you're just being assisted. Just like a suspension fork assists in absorbing bumps instead what your knees and elbows used to have to do in the beginning when we were all fully rigid, and didn't know any better, until someone took the fork design off a motorcycle and put it on a bike....

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I hope you don't consider that hateful speech against electric bikes because it isn't.
    J.B, Definitely not a hate speech, and its great to see some debate in a clear and informative manner devoid of the antagonistic "its this, its that" argument. Thanks.
    I would add though, is that all the MTB riders that have ridden my Levo were not expecting what they experience when they trial it. How the power is delivered is not what they thought it would be. I think it is one thing having some knowledge on the Pedal assist e-bikes, but another thing spending time in the saddle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    Ask that same child to describe a motorcycle or moped and I bet one of the descriptors won't be "you pedal it". Right?
    For sure I think an e-bike is different than a moped, but like a lot people I also think it's different than a bicycle.

    And as for trails, bicycles have been traversing dirt paths since the high wheeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiPhil View Post
    J.B, Definitely not a hate speech, and its great to see some debate in a clear and informative manner devoid of the antagonistic "its this, its that" argument. Thanks.
    Thanks mate!
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  57. #57
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    Where do you purchase an ebike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Where do you purchase an ebike?



    China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Where do you purchase an ebike?
    A bicycle shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    A bicycle shop.



    Walmart isn't by any stretch a bicycle shop.

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    I'll defer to Life Behind Bars knowledge on his bicycle shopping at WalMart.

    While I can't recommend Wal Mart, I'd suggest checking with your LBS Local Bike Shop. Support your LBS! I like to buy local when I can. All the major brands make Emtbs. The new scott ebike looks very nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    I'll defer to Life Behind Bars knowledge on his bicycle shopping at WalMart.

    While I can't recommend Wal Mart, I'd suggest checking with your LBS Local Bike Shop. Support your LBS! I like to buy local when I can. All the major brands make Emtbs. The new scott ebike looks very nice.

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    I can buy guns at my LBS but that doesn't make them bicycles. Using the sketchiest of logic to make motorbikes into bicycles isn't going to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I can buy guns at my LBS but that doesn't make them bicycles. Using the sketchiest of logic to make motorbikes into bicycles isn't going to work.

    Really? That's freaking bizarre! I did actually once work at a shop that sold chainsaws though.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I can buy guns at my LBS but that doesn't make them bicycles. Using the sketchiest of logic to make motorbikes into bicycles isn't going to work.

    You're grasping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Really? That's freaking bizarre! I did actually once work at a shop that sold chainsaws though.



    Lots of people have FFL's, not really bizzare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I can buy guns at my LBS.
    I forgot your bike shop was Wal Mart. Now it makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Lots of people have FFL's, not really bizzare.

    Maybe, I've been in a lot of bike shops though and have yet to see a gun section so it's at least reasonably bizarre. I say pics or it didn't happen......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    But defining elements change. At one time nobody thought a bicycle should be or could be ridden on trails, and here we are.

    Ask that same child to describe a motorcycle or moped and I bet one of the descriptors won't be "you pedal it". Right?

    And, for those who have not ridden an ebike, you don't just go through the motions when you pedal, you're putting in effort, you're just being assisted. Just like a suspension fork assists in absorbing bumps instead what your knees and elbows used to have to do in the beginning when we were all fully rigid, and didn't know any better, until someone took the fork design off a motorcycle and put it on a bike....
    Here's the thing - bicycles *already went through this* in the early 1900s when people started putting motors on them. Those turned into motorcycles, because the human power element quickly became irrelevant - but bicycles survived as their own thing.

    FWIW, too, people were riding bicycles on trails in the 19th century, because (again, wait for it...) there weren't paved roads. I bet they were even having sepia-tone fun! Scandalous!

    You can be pro e-bike or anti-e-bike but ignoring history here is just silly. Motorcycles have evolved from bikes once already, running them with electricity may or may not change the result the second time around.

    I'd happily give up gears and suspension and dropper posts and tubeless 29+ tires if it were that or trail access. The trails matter more than the bikes, and anyone who feels otherwise... I don't know what to say, except WOW is calling you with all it's tech.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Where do you purchase an ebike?
    You can buy them at a couple of lbs, ebike specific shops and moto dealers around here.

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    I know, I'm just being sarcastic. After riding motorcycles my entire life, I find it hilarious that people reference them as motorbikes or mopeds. My Levo is fun, but has its place and limits. I could never bomb Pisgah Forest on an ebike, quite like I just did on my Niner.
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    Ok, sorry, I am going to go a bit off topic here.

    The history of the bicycle is fascinating. I wonder how many people today know that bicycle racing used to be the biggest spectator sport in the US? I think to some degree, adding motors to bicycles helped kill that off. My understanding is that motorcycles were used to get bicycles up to speed in some of the events, eventually that lead to just racing the motorcycles instead, then with all the carnage, injuries and deaths, that died off. And few people realize how much roads were developed to accommodate bicycles; now the car drivers say they don't belong. I read an article the other day saying with all of the driverless car technology being developed, they want bicycles completely gone from the roads as they are problematic.
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    OP, just give it some time. Rome wasn't built in one day....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I know, I'm just being sarcastic. After riding motorcycles my entire life, I find it hilarious that people reference them as motorbikes or mopeds. My Levo is fun, but has its place and limits. I could never bomb Pisgah Forest on an ebike, quite like I just did on my Niner.
    I know, we're starting the see people trying to cash in and sell garbage Chinese ebikes, which like garbage big box store bikes will mostly end up on bike paths, broken or gathering dust in garages. I'm sure a few will venture out on the trails and they'll figure out they're not up to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    ...suspension, disc brakes, 29" wheels etc makes mountain biking easier, is the fact, that despite all that, those bikes, with all that technology, are still human powered, ...

    As soon as you add an engine, of any type, it's no longer in the same..
    It's not the same you're correct.

    But for you, the one and only categorization criteria is the presence of a motor.

    For me, for a 250 W speed limited pedal-assist bike, the motor is not one of the criteria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    super powered bikes that can pull several people uphill, will be on the trails tearing them up and terrorizing other users. The dirt bikers who want to ride all those off limit trails to gas powered motos, will simply go out and buy an electric powered one and call it a "class1" and go rip the trails.
    I've been reading all these "reasons" ebikes are the devil in the voice of Adam Sandlers mom in the water boy. It makes it much better.

    Oooh lawd, the ebike is the debil! Gonna make them men with the heart conditions go too fast and they gonna have the heart attacks. Da mountain bikes with dose' big powerful motors is gonna run too fast up the trails and flatten out the baby childrens and womens! There gonna be powerful motorcycles disguised as them ebikes pedalin' up da trails tearing em all up! Packs of em! It's gonna be like mad max out there in da bike park. Mark my words Bobby Boucher! E bikes is the debil!

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    Here's a question for KiwiPhil:

    If a 250w ebike lets you keep up with your mates, what would you do if all your mates had 250w ebikes?
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    Can everyone please agree to stop using the term "moped" to describe a pedal assisted bike? Electric Bicycle or e-Bike or PedElec is better.

    In most places a MoPed requires an M1 or M2 to ride and generally need to be registered and have a license plate. That is not the case (as of now) with e-Bikes in the sense that this forum is designed to discuss.

    Now if you want to discuss whether or not a PedElec should have to be registered and the rider have an M1 or M2, that is a totally different discussion and feel free to start a thread specifically about that.
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    DB, seems like someone must have received a copy of the Brando film "The Wild One". Next thing you know, they'll be accusing e-MTB's of rapin deir womin and killen dem chillens.

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    I don't understand the issue, I am not using the term mo-ped as the law dictates, I am using it as it was and is intended in the english language, it has a MOtor and you PEDal it as well, hence MOPED. Really just the evolution of the ones from the 60's & 70's, just using an electric instead of gas motor

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Can everyone please agree to stop using the term "moped" to describe a pedal assisted bike? Electric Bicycle or e-Bike or PedElec is better.

    In most places a MoPed requires an M1 or M2 to ride and generally need to be registered and have a license plate. That is not the case (as of now) with e-Bikes in the sense that this forum is designed to discuss.

    Now if you want to discuss whether or not a PedElec should have to be registered and the rider have an M1 or M2, that is a totally different discussion and feel free to start a thread specifically about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I don't understand the issue, I am not using the term mo-ped as the law dictates, I am using it as it was and is intended in the english language, it has a MOtor and you PEDal it as well, hence MOPED. Really just the evolution of the ones from the 60's & 70's, just using an electric instead of gas motor
    how the law dictates is a big concern in the e-bikes section since so many mountain bikers are fearful of trail access loss.

    Also, the rules for posting in the forum dictate that users not use that term to describe them here.....
    So there is that.


    Posts referring to Electric Bicycles as MoPeds may end of disappearing.
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I don't understand the issue, I am not using the term mo-ped as the law dictates, I am using it as it was and is intended in the english language, it has a MOtor and you PEDal it as well, hence MOPED. Really just the evolution of the ones from the 60's & 70's, just using an electric instead of gas motor
    Sort of, but they are pretty different in the sense that you never had to pedal a moped to keep it going. Nobody every pedaled a moped except to start it or if they ran out of gas.

    I do think they are similar in the respect that an important reason both of the designs included pedals was to circumvent existing laws and consequently open previously untapped markets. You might notice that mopeds no longer have pedals.
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    I've been reading all these "reasons" ebikes are the devil in the voice of Adam Sandlers mom in the water boy. It makes it much better.

    Oooh lawd, the ebike is the debil! Gonna make them men with the heart conditions go too fast and they gonna have the heart attacks. Da mountain bikes with dose' big powerful motors is gonna run too fast up the trails and flatten out the baby childrens and womens! There gonna be powerful motorcycles disguised as them ebikes pedalin' up da trails tearing em all up! Packs of em! It's gonna be like mad max out there in da bike park. Mark my words Bobby Boucher! E bikes is the debil!
    You left out the actual claims MTBers have posted.

    To what Lynx said, a basic understanding of high school level physics tells us that that gears, 29ers, disc brakes, etc, do not change the amount of work required from the rider; if anything, they are a weight penalty and thus require the rider to do more work. Add an assist motor and this is no longer true; less work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    You left out the actual claims MTBers have posted.

    To what Lynx said, a basic understanding of high school level physics tells us that that gears, 29ers, disc brakes, etc, do not change the amount of work required from the rider; if anything, they are a weight penalty and thus require the rider to do more work. Add an assist motor and this is no longer true; less work.
    If you don't think gears, 29er wheels and suspension don't change efforts/exertion and effect. I'll meet you at the next ride. You ride a rigid single speed 26 inch and I'll ride my full suspension 29er Scott.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    If you don't think gears, 29er wheels and suspension don't change efforts/exertion and effect. I'll meet you at the next ride. You ride a rigid single speed 26 inch and I'll ride my full suspension 29er Scott.
    Deal, but I'll need a rigid fork for my SS. And if you notice, I said "work".
    "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -Douglas Adams.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Deal, but I'll need a rigid fork for my SS. And if you notice, I said "work".
    Gears, etc, are a mechanical advantage. But this is all really moot, isn't it.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    Gears, etc, are a mechanical advantage.
    Yes they are, but they are a trade off, they don't magically lessen the amount of work performed by the rider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    But this is all really moot, isn't it.
    No it isn't, unlike a motor, they do not lessen the amount of work performed by the rider.
    "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -Douglas Adams.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Yes they are, but they are a trade off, they don't magically lessen the amount of work performed by the rider.



    No it isn't, unlike a motor, they do not lessen the amount of work performed by the rider.
    Hmmm. Next year at the Fools Gold 60 I'm gonna to enter myself and my geared bike in SS class. I'll explain I'm still doing the same amount of work so it's ok.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    Hmmm. Next year at the Fools Gold 60 I'm gonna to enter myself and my geared bike in SS class. I'll explain I'm still doing the same amount of work so it's ok.
    I guess you didn't do too well in high school physics.

    Why don't you just enter your ebike? It's a bicycle after all. You could enter the women's class, maybe move up some age groups. It'll be swell.
    "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -Douglas Adams.

  89. #89
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    You know, I gave some legitimate suggestions on the subject of this thread way back, Double Butted, but that doesn't seem to really be what you want to discuss.
    "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -Douglas Adams.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I guess you didn't do too well in high school physics.

    Why don't you just enter your ebike? It's a bicycle after all. You could enter the women's class, maybe move up some age groups. It'll be swell.
    And you must not have done too well in reading comprehension. Because I've been talking about mechanical advantage and Archimedes agrees with me.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    You know, I gave some legitimate suggestions on the subject of this thread way back, Double Butted, but that doesn't seem to really be what you want to discuss.
    No, I want to discuss ebikes and I've made many comments in this thread about the discourse and how to make it better, and it included that people here seem to want to hinge on semantics or argue trivialities which takes the topic off course and leads down oddball rabbit holes. That said, when someone takes me to task on something I've said, I do try to respond. Case in point.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    And you must not have done too well in reading comprehension. Because I've been talking about mechanical advantage and Archimedes agrees with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Butted View Post
    That said, when someone takes me to task on something I've said, I do try to respond. Case in point.
    Please make up your mind, I took you to task about "work" and you responded about mechanical advantage.

    Regardless, what you have done is convince me that several of the posters here are correct, a number of you ebikers are not really interested in legitimately working to have ebikes accepted but rather are just looking for short cuts to get motorized vehicles allowed on non-motorized trails with as little effort as possible. I've come across some ebikers here who seem legitimate and I feel sorry for them, as it seems others here have a much different agenda.

    And don't worry, I won't be in the forum any more.
    "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -Douglas Adams.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    Here's a question for KiwiPhil:

    If a 250w ebike lets you keep up with your mates, what would you do if all your mates had 250w ebikes?
    Well, at present they have no need or desire to do so. But when we ride we all ride together, as a group. I doubt anything would change. Here's a fact, and i'm not sure if this goes for the groups you ride with, but we are a group of mates who enjoy spending time together. So, if they did by an assist bike, nothing would change.
    I've been for two night rides this week (mid winter here). First one was with my FAF (Fit As F&^k) mate, he set a blistering pace on the uphill leg considering the conditions that night, and I followed him with the Levo set on low. to put it mildly, I felt the burn!!!! but enjoyed every minute.
    Last nights run was with a mate who has been a "little lazy" and not in shape. Again, I let him set the pace and again had the Levo on Low. And, once again I enjoyed every minute.
    Sometimes its more about getting out there and enjoying time outdoors with ya mates.
    My Levo has aided me in doing just that.

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    What if your friends got slower but didn't want to buy a motor assist bike and could no longer keep up with you. Would you sell it and go back to a real bike?
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    What if your friends got slower but didn't want to buy a motor assist bike and could no longer keep up with you. Would you sell it and go back to a real bike?
    I cant go "BACK" to a "REAL" bike, when I currently don't only ride one....but Two "Real" bikes. A Giant reign and a specialized Levo Turbo comp 6Fattie. They both feel real when I sit on them!!
    I think implying my mate will go slower is clutching at straws, and getting off topic....

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    What if your friends got slower but didn't want to buy a motor assist bike and could no longer keep up with you. Would you sell it and go back to a real bike?
    We do this thing is socal called waiting. We get to a spot on trail and wait.

    I know it sounds crazy to Gaint fans from San Fran.
    Hardtail downhill
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    tresspassing, thievery and poaching is all part of a DH'ers life

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    Quote Originally Posted by fos'l View Post
    ...
    How can we counteract this negative direction?

    1) Promote a Moderator with the stones to ban e-negatives ...
    2) Ban anyone who discusses access anywhere except in its own thread...
    3) Don't allow any negative comments about e-bikes unless you've ridden one...

    Any more ideas? ...

    Banning or censoring will always be biased & wrong.

    The ebike owners & enthusiasts should do the following;

    1. Do not reply to _ANY_ off-topic or condescending post no matter how badly it makes your blood boil. IGNORE 'EM!!!

    2. When you do reply on-topic, quote some portion of the last real on-topic post you are replying to (see above) so the others realize they are being IGNORED.

    Ignored troublemakers will whiny LOUDER for a bit ... but will lose interest when they don't see the reactions they are baiting us to get. Remove their reward (your reply) and watch what happens!!! :-)


    Catfish ...

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    MC, good suggestions; better than mine. For now, I just put the trolls on ignore. Maybe someday they'll be back under their rocks.

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    ////misposted////
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharp things View Post
    Please explain the part in bold further.
    Please don't.
    Sinister Bikes
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    NEMBA
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