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  1. #1
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    Has anyone here actually received a ticket for riding an e-bike on a trail?

    Just curious. What happened? How much was the fine? Did you try to fight it in court?

    One Ranger said they don't stop e-bikes because they can't prove the motor was actually being used. So an e-bike is perfectly legal if you don't use the motor. So even if you do get a ticket, it would be easily dismissed in court.

    So it just made me wonder if anyone has actually received a citation in the U.S.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    So an e-bike is perfectly legal if you don't use the motor. So even if you do get a ticket, it would be easily dismissed in court.



    Since you're so sure about this why don't you go be the test case?
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  3. #3
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    And, poaching is still poaching.
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  4. #4
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    Class 1 e-bikes share the same laws on State trails as bicycles in Minnesota. So no help here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Since you're so sure about this why don't you go be the test case?
    I'm not so sure. However, this is my understanding. This is a discussion board. Let's discuss.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    I'm not so sure. However, this is my understanding. This is a discussion board. Let's discuss.



    Test it out so we really have something to discuss. Go big or go home.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    I'm not so sure. However, this is my understanding. This is a discussion board. Let's discuss.
    It's already been discussed. An ebike is not perfectly legal if you don't use the motor.

    You're taking about poaching trails and that is not allowed on this site.
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  8. #8
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    About a year ago I took my ebike to skeggs in Northern CA. Was riding and everything was fine. Crashed on a trail and ripped my throttle cable. Had to pedal/walk back uphill to the parking lot. Ranger Rick saw me and yelled at me to come over and looked like he was gonna give me a ticket. But since I was walking my bike and had dirt on me he just told me I couldn't ride ebikes there and I left. Im not sure if he felt bad since I crashed(I was perfectly Ok) or since I was actually walking the bike back. So I almost got a ticket for riding my ebike once.

    Thinking about it Im guessing he was waiting for me. I suspect someone reported me and he was hoping to catch me on the way out. I just go to Santa Cruz if I'm gonna ebike nowadays. Much better riding there.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    About a year ago I took my ebike to skeggs in Northern CA. Was riding and everything was fine. Crashed on a trail and ripped my throttle cable. Had to pedal/walk back uphill to the parking lot. Ranger Rick saw me and yelled at me to come over and looked like he was gonna give me a ticket. But since I was walking my bike and had dirt on me he just told me I couldn't ride ebikes there and I left. Im not sure if he felt bad since I crashed(I was perfectly Ok) or since I was actually walking the bike back. So I almost got a ticket for riding my ebike once.

    Thinking about it Im guessing he was waiting for me. I suspect someone reported me and he was hoping to catch me on the way out. I just go to Santa Cruz if I'm gonna ebike nowadays. Much better riding there.
    Throttle cable? So you were riding a class 2 ebike?

    Glad you weren't hurt.
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    It may be a class 3. But yeah...not supposed to ride it there so I don't. This was in the days when I was ignorant of the rules. Nowadays I don't want to bother with getting ticketed. Last I heard about Skeegs it is one of the few places that actually has ranger Rick with a radar gun giving out like $400 speeding tickets to mountain bikers.

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    I'm glad you were Ok too. It's my understanding that only Class 2 bikes have throttles, not Class 3, but I could be wrong. And I'm talking about fully manufactured e-bikes as built you own can be anything you want.

    A couple of rangers saw me on my e-bike a few weeks ago, but he just waved to say hello. Seemed they didn't care. I see lots of e-bikes in my area.

    I have never run into anyone who has been ticketed. So I was wondering if anyone has actually received one.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardv View Post
    I'm glad you were Ok too. It's my understanding that only Class 2 bikes have throttles, not Class 3, but I could be wrong. And I'm talking about fully manufactured e-bikes as built you own can be anything you want.

    A couple of rangers saw me on my e-bike a few weeks ago, but he just waved to say hello. Seemed they didn't care. I see lots of e-bikes in my area.

    I have never run into anyone who has been ticketed. So I was wondering if anyone has actually received one.
    Oh...in regards to your actual question. I have seen dozens of rangers and not counting the guy that wanted to ticket me, there have only been 2 instances of rangers even noticing I was on and electric bike. And in both cases they thought it was cool and didn't mind.

    The area that I almost got ticketed is notorious for having Gustapo rangers which is not typical.

    I have never heard of anyone getting ticketed in my area but you shouldn't poach. Ride where it's legal.

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    I have gotten some high fives and lots of wow that's really cool !

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    I have gotten some high fives and lots of wow that's really cool !
    sure
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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    I have gotten some high fives and lots of wow that's really cool !
    Let me guess, all the rangers were just dying to take it for a spin, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Let me guess, all the rangers were just dying to take it for a spin, right?
    No but they did agree to let e bikes on the mt bike trails on city park land that was over a year ago not one complaint or a e bike related iuess so far ,and now a nearby city has opened there mt bike trails to e bikes.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    No but they did agree to let e bikes on the mt bike trails on city park land that was over a year ago not one complaint or a e bike related iuess so far ,and now a nearby city has opened there mt bike trails to e bikes.



    Where is this e-motorbiking paradise?
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  18. #18
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    I've had nothing but pleasant interactions with others while I was on my e-bike. The handful of negative Nellie's on this board is not a reflection of the folks I meet on the mountain.

  19. #19
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    Where I am, there are zero (yes, zero) rangers. In theory if you murdered someone on the trail or something, the sheriff would be the LEO involved.

    If things go badly or people behave poorly (this happened to a particular trail people were bombing down that's popular with hikers/families last year) the land managers just close the trail to bikes. Of course, for those folks who are the big jerks who got the trail closed in the first place, that presumably not much of a deterrent, since, once again... no rangers.

    E-bikes will gain (or lose) access based on the impression they make with LMs and the general public. If it's mostly old codgers puttering around (this is 99% of what I see) they will slowly but surely gain access all over. If they become vehicles for 20-something shredders to use to self-shuttle every trail at the city park in their armor and fullface... that will end it fast.

    It will be interesting to see what happens.

    -Walt

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Where I am, there are zero (yes, zero) rangers. In theory if you murdered someone on the trail or something, the sheriff would be the LEO involved.

    If things go badly or people behave poorly (this happened to a particular trail people were bombing down that's popular with hikers/families last year) the land managers just close the trail to bikes. Of course, for those folks who are the big jerks who got the trail closed in the first place, that presumably not much of a deterrent, since, once again... no rangers.

    E-bikes will gain (or lose) access based on the impression they make with LMs and the general public. If it's mostly old codgers puttering around (this is 99% of what I see) they will slowly but surely gain access all over. If they become vehicles for 20-something shredders to use to self-shuttle every trail at the city park in their armor and fullface... that will end it fast.

    It will be interesting to see what happens.

    -Walt
    100% agree. In my opinion we won't see a lot of this(ebike terrorists) in many places. But inevitably there will be some places in which some people ruin it for everyone else. I think this may apply to regular bicycles and ebikes.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    100% agree. In my opinion we won't see a lot of this(ebike terrorists) in many places. But inevitably there will be some places in which some people ruin it for everyone else. I think this may apply to regular bicycles and ebikes.
    E-bikes do make it *easier* to be a jerk, in that you can get to the top of things easily and then bomb back down. Honestly that's my biggest concern, not the 2-way traffic thing (I think more directional trails would be a good thing anyway, so if e-bikes push us that way, that's probably good). Imagine if every trail had a chairlift to the top...

    If people start modding/hacking/DIYing stuff, of course that's the end of it as well, but if anything is a threat to e-bikes long term success/access, I'd say it's people self-shuttling on MUTs that they'd normally be too lazy to tackle riding up.

    -Walt

  22. #22
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    So far in my neck of the woods I've seen a decent amount of ebikes and 0 jerks. I really hope it stays that way.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    So far in my neck of the woods I've seen a decent amount of ebikes and 0 jerks. I really hope it stays that way.
    Yes, it's pretty much 100% old guys right now. Old guys who ride bikes, in my experience, are basically never jerks on the trail.

    The e-bike marketing all shows young guys shredding, but so does the marketing for, like, Viagra and adult diapers. I don't see younger (under about 50) people riding e-bikes on dirt, at least thus far.

    -Walt

  24. #24
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    "The e-bike marketing all shows young guys shredding"

    Seriously Walt? All bike marketing is about young guys shredding because that is what they do motor or not and sales is sales to the bike industry. In fact e bikes don't have to use their motor on the shreddable sections as gravity does the work.

    And yes, I am that old guy who rides eBikes, and keeps both wheels on the ground for the most part, and am not a jerk on the trail to any other users because I have years of experience interacting with people and animals on trails. I do do damage on the climbs though, but in a different way than it sounds like, not fast, but sure. Too much fun and that is what I ride bikes for.
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel View Post
    Seriously Walt? All bike marketing is about young guys shredding because that is what they do motor or not and sales is sales to the bike industry. In fact e bikes don't have to use their motor on the shreddable sections as gravity does the work.
    Yes, I went to considerable pains to point that out in my next sentence. Did you not read that part?

    If the shred crew (because of marketing or not) decides e-bikes are their thing, access is basically over. There are some kids down the street here on the N. Shore who have DH rigs with 3kw motors on them who ride the Pupukea trails. They are a sort of holy terror on those things, but that's how HI works and other than a few tourists at the pillbox nobody is out there, so nobody cares. Bring them to the mainland on a MUT and you'd get e-bikes banned everywhere in a hot second.

    To be fair, if we all locked up our rear wheels around every corner like in the ads, we'd get all bikes banned everywhere. MTB advertising has always baffled me.

    -Walt

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Yes, it's pretty much 100% old guys right now. Old guys who ride bikes, in my experience, are basically never jerks on the trail.

    The e-bike marketing all shows young guys shredding, but so does the marketing for, like, Viagra and adult diapers. I don't see younger (under about 50) people riding e-bikes on dirt, at least thus far.

    -Walt
    Great, so now we'll see ads with an old guy sporting a hard-on poking his diaper while riding an ebike.

    Hopefully the price of ebikes will remain high, that should keep them more in the hands of older riders. I worry that we'll see more and more cheap emtbs and they'll become a big fad, like the hover-boards of a few years ago. If that happens, hopefully they'll implode just like the hover-board trend did before they wreck it for all of us. Actually, I guess they more exploded than imploded. I'm not worried if it's just a few older and/or disabled riders on them, but if they become common, it's going to change the mtb trail riding experience around me.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    So far in my neck of the woods I've seen a decent amount of ebikes and 0 jerks. I really hope it stays that way.

    Must be nice.....we have Ebike rider that has no regard for other trail users on our local trail. Running full boost, not yielding to other user groups and blowing by everyone whether itís safe or not. When confronted, his excuse is that he wants to go fast all the time. Yes, these are MUTís with lots of hikers and equestrians. It also doesnít help that ebikes arenít allowed in the park to begin with.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    If the shred crew (because of marketing or not) decides e-bikes are their thing, access is basically over. There are some kids down the street here on the N. Shore who have DH rigs with 3kw motors on them who ride the Pupukea trails. They are a sort of holy terror on those things, but that's how HI works and other than a few tourists at the pillbox nobody is out there, so nobody cares. Bring them to the mainland on a MUT and you'd get e-bikes banned everywhere in a hot second.
    -Walt
    This scenario is basically what drives the fear of most of those on this site who oppose eBikes.

    This scenario is also ignored by the eBike advocates who think the ONLY people who ride eBikes are nice old guys and nice handicapped guys.


    There will always be good with the bad. But for the sake of peaceful discussion on this site I would ask the following:

    eBike Opposers - stop assuming that everyone who posts about eBikes here want to run 3k watt DH rigs everywhere like maniacs.

    eBike supports - stop putting your heads in the sand and recognize that there is valid fear from other users.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    This scenario is basically what drives the fear of most of those on this site who oppose eBikes.

    This scenario is also ignored by the eBike advocates who think the ONLY people who ride eBikes are nice old guys and nice handicapped guys.


    There will always be good with the bad. But for the sake of peaceful discussion on this site I would ask the following:

    eBike Opposers - stop assuming that everyone who posts about eBikes here want to run 3k watt DH rigs everywhere like maniacs.

    eBike supports - stop putting your heads in the sand and recognize that there is valid fear from other users.
    That seems logical.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    eBike supports - stop putting your heads in the sand and recognize that there is valid fear from other users.
    'valid' fears which are entirely rhetorical. It's in their heads, not on the trails. It's entirely an imagined fear of something unknown to them. The fear is more to be found in the fear itself, and the prejudiced approach some are taking based on thin air.

    the world went through all of this same EXACT fearmongering rhetoric with the paved/gravel city trails around the world. Fears about overpowered DIY rigs. Fears about people riding their bikes as fast as roadies, instead of half their speed. People arguing nonsensicalness of 'it's got a motor it's a motorsickel' lol - sorry that is not an argument, says nothing about reality, trail impact, user access, etc. Well it's largely been settled. I see 1/4 of the city MUT users on ebikes today, and it has worked out marvelously. I think they're maybe a bit safer because I'm not having to slow down as much to pass them on my road bike (non-e), and don't mind when they pass me. It has driven up commuter traffic on the MUT which has alleviated a fair amount of motor vehicle traffic and motivated mega spending by the cities on more and more cycling infrastructure. It's been a 12 year experiment and generally problem-free, an advance of technology making the bicycle even more of a solution than it was before.

    The natural surface trails will be likewise, and it's already been settled and worked out marvelously in the EU. It has no affect on other users, MTBers or hikers enjoyment of the trails because it is still just mountain biking, looks, sounds, feels the same, even as measured by the MBA studies. Any rowdy trail destructiveness is on par with the rowdy trail destructiveness found by non-e mountain bikers and hikers - a fringe to be dealt with on its own merits just as any ugliness is dealt with by other users.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    'valid' fears which are entirely rhetorical. It's in their heads, not on the trails. It's entirely an imagined fear of something unknown to them. The fear is more to be found in the fear itself, and the prejudiced approach some are taking based on thin air.

    the world went through all of this same EXACT fearmongering rhetoric with the paved/gravel city trails around the world. Fears about overpowered DIY rigs. Fears about people riding their bikes as fast as roadies, instead of half their speed. People arguing nonsensicalness of 'it's got a motor it's a motorsickel' lol - sorry that is not an argument, says nothing about reality, trail impact, user access, etc. Well it's largely been settled. I see 1/4 of the city MUT users on ebikes today, and it has worked out marvelously. I think they're maybe a bit safer because I'm not having to slow down as much to pass them on my road bike (non-e), and don't mind when they pass me. It has driven up commuter traffic on the MUT which has alleviated a fair amount of motor vehicle traffic and motivated mega spending by the cities on more and more cycling infrastructure. It's been a 12 year experiment and generally problem-free, an advance of technology making the bicycle even more of a solution than it was before.

    The natural surface trails will be likewise, and it's already been settled and worked out marvelously in the EU. It has no affect on other users, MTBers or hikers enjoyment of the trails because it is still just mountain biking, looks, sounds, feels the same, even as measured by the MBA studies. Any rowdy trail destructiveness is on par with the rowdy trail destructiveness found by non-e mountain bikers and hikers - a fringe to be dealt with on its own merits just as any ugliness is dealt with by other users.



    This isn't the E.U.
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  32. #32
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    The few ebikes I've seen on singletrack around here have been of this variety.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/2167...0440881174484/

    I know there are few levos and such roaming around, as well, neither are legal, but there isn't any enforcement aside from peer pressure. The very few rangers in the various park systemes we have aren't LEO's and can't ticket. If this was EU, I'd agree with you, I wouldn't forsee much in the way of behavioral problems beyond the usual asshats we already see. Unfortunately, it's the wild west around here for ebikes, anything goes, and faster is better.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    'valid' fears which are entirely rhetorical. It's in their heads, not on the trails. It's entirely an imagined fear of something unknown to them. The fear is more to be found in the fear itself, and the prejudiced approach some are taking based on thin air.

    the world went through all of this same EXACT fearmongering rhetoric with the paved/gravel city trails around the world. Fears about overpowered DIY rigs. Fears about people riding their bikes as fast as roadies, instead of half their speed. People arguing nonsensicalness of 'it's got a motor it's a motorsickel' lol - sorry that is not an argument, says nothing about reality, trail impact, user access, etc. Well it's largely been settled. I see 1/4 of the city MUT users on ebikes today, and it has worked out marvelously. I think they're maybe a bit safer because I'm not having to slow down as much to pass them on my road bike (non-e), and don't mind when they pass me. It has driven up commuter traffic on the MUT which has alleviated a fair amount of motor vehicle traffic and motivated mega spending by the cities on more and more cycling infrastructure. It's been a 12 year experiment and generally problem-free, an advance of technology making the bicycle even more of a solution than it was before.

    The natural surface trails will be likewise, and it's already been settled and worked out marvelously in the EU. It has no affect on other users, MTBers or hikers enjoyment of the trails because it is still just mountain biking, looks, sounds, feels the same, even as measured by the MBA studies. Any rowdy trail destructiveness is on par with the rowdy trail destructiveness found by non-e mountain bikers and hikers - a fringe to be dealt with on its own merits just as any ugliness is dealt with by other users.
    So you are NOT going to take my advice and will still stick your head in the sand and claim "it works in the EU" and forget that how trail access works in the US is a vastly different process then how it works in Europe.

    Your inability to be reasonable and consider the valid fears that many very smart and experienced trail advocates have pointed out completely removes any credibility you think you might have with your posts.

    Feel free to stop posting on this site if you will not be reasonable.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCsaltchucker View Post
    'valid' fears which are entirely rhetorical. It's in their heads, not on the trails. It's entirely an imagined fear of something unknown to them. The fear is more to be found in the fear itself, and the prejudiced approach some are taking based on thin air.

    the world went through all of this same EXACT fearmongering rhetoric with the paved/gravel city trails around the world. Fears about overpowered DIY rigs. Fears about people riding their bikes as fast as roadies, instead of half their speed. People arguing nonsensicalness of 'it's got a motor it's a motorsickel' lol - sorry that is not an argument, says nothing about reality, trail impact, user access, etc. Well it's largely been settled. I see 1/4 of the city MUT users on ebikes today, and it has worked out marvelously. I think they're maybe a bit safer because I'm not having to slow down as much to pass them on my road bike (non-e), and don't mind when they pass me. It has driven up commuter traffic on the MUT which has alleviated a fair amount of motor vehicle traffic and motivated mega spending by the cities on more and more cycling infrastructure. It's been a 12 year experiment and generally problem-free, an advance of technology making the bicycle even more of a solution than it was before.

    The natural surface trails will be likewise, and it's already been settled and worked out marvelously in the EU. It has no affect on other users, MTBers or hikers enjoyment of the trails because it is still just mountain biking, looks, sounds, feels the same, even as measured by the MBA studies. Any rowdy trail destructiveness is on par with the rowdy trail destructiveness found by non-e mountain bikers and hikers - a fringe to be dealt with on its own merits just as any ugliness is dealt with by other users.
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  35. #35
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    And despite their claims, this is the real issue with ebikes on mtbr.com; the ebikers (not all of them but there always seems to be at least one around), not the mtb'ers.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Hopefully the price of ebikes will remain high, that should keep them more in the hands of older riders.
    Walmart will be selling $900 e-bikes in a few years. Prices will only come down. 10 years from now they'll be $400.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Walmart will be selling $900 e-bikes in a few years. Prices will only come down. 10 years from now they'll be $400.
    My local Costco has these for $1000....

    https://www.costco.com/Jetson-Advent...100370011.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Walmart will be selling $900 e-bikes in a few years. Prices will only come down. 10 years from now they'll be $400.



    And like most bicycle purchases they will be taking up space in the garage after being ridden less that a handful of times.
    Quote Originally Posted by me;
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    This scenario is basically what drives the fear of most of those on this site who oppose eBikes.

    This scenario is also ignored by the eBike advocates who think the ONLY people who ride eBikes are nice old guys and nice handicapped guys.


    There will always be good with the bad. But for the sake of peaceful discussion on this site I would ask the following:

    eBike Opposers - stop assuming that everyone who posts about eBikes here want to run 3k watt DH rigs everywhere like maniacs.

    eBike supports - stop putting your heads in the sand and recognize that there is valid fear from other users.
    Using the words "valid fear" when describing a situation that has not yet happened to you or become common is horribly ironic. You do know what a slippery slope fallacy is, yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Using the words "valid fear" when describing a situation that has not yet happened to you or become common is horribly ironic. You do know what a slippery slope fallacy is, yes?

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    This could be said of the reasoning made by the e-motor crowd as well. It cuts two ways.
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    Oh, it absolutely does. However, to use the term valid to describe a blatant fallacy struck me as horribly ironic.

    Herein lies one of the major issues with using fallacies. If you accept a fallacy arguing for one position how can you refute a similar fallacy arguing the counter. As a general rule fallacies cannot be refuted expect by pointing out that they are in fact fallacies. I equate them to dividing by zero. If you do it and obfuscate it enough you can prove any number of incorrect things.
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    This could be said of the reasoning made by the e-motor crowd as well. It cuts two ways.
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    Why am I confused? Is this a fallacy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Walmart will be selling $900 e-bikes in a few years. Prices will only come down. 10 years from now they'll be $400.
    Too late, they had IZip's like this with SLA Batteries on the floor 10 years ago.
    Has anyone here actually received a ticket for riding an e-bike on a trail?-00e0e_hriiolidzpc_1200x900-1.jpg


    And sorry Walt, didn't see that as a disclaimer that the industry puts as much ememphasis on the shred by dino bikes, just something about young guys who ride in the dirt and something about Viagra and Diapers. Whatever, you the man! Ride on.

    Nice ride today nonetheless. Love me some Forest Bathing and 24 mile single track rides, even ran across some Japanese hikers getting their bath on also. And a mini car show on the way home.

    Has anyone here actually received a ticket for riding an e-bike on a trail?-unnamed.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Using the words "valid fear" when describing a situation that has not yet happened to you or become common is horribly ironic. You do know what a slippery slope fallacy is, yes?

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    Ah Tucker, read back through this and try again.

    val∑id
    ˈvaləd/Submit
    adjective
    (of an argument or point) having a sound basis in logic or fact; reasonable or cogent.

    So a "basis in logic" or "reasonable" is open to opinion, unlike a "fact". So in Kluerejr's opinion, it is a "valid fear". And that's not even getting into the meaning of "fear". Who's to say if someone's fear is valid to that person?

    And in regards to slippery slope, likewise it is open to someone's opinion. True, none of us have a crystal ball but, since I think this started from my post and my fears and the trails I ride, which I'm *guessing* you haven't, I think I'm in a better position to form an opinion on what would happen to *my* experience if they become common (and that's pretty loosely defined and specific to me) on the trails *I* ride. That may be a completely invalid fear to you based on your own experience, but it is not to me.

    So if someone is truly interested in getting ebikes on trails, they would be better served to work to alleviate mtb'ers' fears rather than merely arguing. But it is my understanding that you really are not interested in ebikes.
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    It's a valid fear that pedelecs will lead to nuclear war and total annihilation of the Earth. It hasn't happened in Europe but who owns the most nukes? US. Pedelec supporters who don't worship me for my very prudent and grounded fear need to burned at the stake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    It hasn't happened in Europe...
    Europe has very different land access situations and e-bikes will not be limited to pedelecs or a specific class. There is nobody who is going to validate that e-bikes meet a specific class or have not been hacked with higher power/throttle, etc... Once you let motors on the trails there will be all sorts of them on the trail.

    Like Walt points out access is going to be 1) only human powered bikes, 2) human powered + electric motor bikes or 3) no bikes at all.
    Safe riding,

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    Those poor Europeans, no internet access for purchasing a motor, and soldiers at every trailhead. We are free here in the US which is why oppression is so important.

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    Then maybe you should work to get the US regulations for ebikes to match the European regulations. Or do you not like that part of the "it works in Europe"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Then maybe you should work to get the US regulations for ebikes to match the European regulations. Or do you not like that part of the "it works in Europe"?
    Why would you assume I don't work for regulation change? What do you suggest I do?

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    Donít you guys drink coffee before arguing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linktung View Post
    Why would you assume I don't work for regulation change? What do you suggest I do?
    Because you have made zero mention of it, you just post that it works in Europe so we should assume it will work here, despite US regs being different.

    So HAVE you worked to change the regulations? If so, why are you asking me would you should do? Surely you can figure that out if you really want to. And you never answered me when I asked if you have any commercial ties to ebikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Donít you guys drink coffee before arguing?
    I'm drinking it now!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Ah Tucker, read back through this and try again.

    val∑id
    ˈvaləd/Submit
    adjective
    (of an argument or point) having a sound basis in logic or fact; reasonable or cogent.

    So a "basis in logic" or "reasonable" is open to opinion, unlike a "fact". So in Kluerejr's opinion, it is a "valid fear". And that's not even getting into the meaning of "fear". Who's to say if someone's fear is valid to that person?
    Seperating the words out does not change the irony. You're simply attempting to alter context, another fallacy. Furthermore, hiding behind the it's an opinion so it can't be wrong mantra is yet another fallacy. It's still horribly ironic and poor choice of words.

    Thanks for providing a working example for the "divide by zero" descriptor. I really appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Because you have made zero mention of it, you just post that it works in Europe so we should assume it will work here, despite US regs being different.

    So HAVE you worked to change the regulations? If so, why are you asking me would you should do? Surely you can figure that out if you really want to. And you never answered me when I asked if you have any commercial ties to ebikes.
    Yes....just curious....I am a child laborer in a bafang factory in China who wants to see more orders come in but fears pedelecs in US will ultimately destroy the Earth through nuclear war. It is an internal conflict that i must face everyday.

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    The park service for the Cuyahoga National Park (tow path) in Ohio USA are very aggressive for issuing citations even if you don't have your battery. You can apply for a special disability permit to allow you to ride. Many other good options in the area.

    I talked my way out of a ticket once. At 11:00 PM a few blocks from my house on pavement. I just installed a 2000 lumen head lamp and did not have it adjusted. Cop blinked me the brights but I could not move the headlamp. Stopped me did sobriety test and wanted to ticket me for no license plate. Could not get him to listen to the fact that it was a bicycle and I had just installed the lamp and was trying it out. Eventually got him to acquiesce but he was not comfortable with it.
    Last edited by PierreR; 6 Days Ago at 07:03 AM. Reason: clarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Where I am, there are zero (yes, zero) rangers. In theory if you murdered someone on the trail or something, the sheriff would be the LEO involved.

    If things go badly or people behave poorly (this happened to a particular trail people were bombing down that's popular with hikers/families last year) the land managers just close the trail to bikes. Of course, for those folks who are the big jerks who got the trail closed in the first place, that presumably not much of a deterrent, since, once again... no rangers.

    E-bikes will gain (or lose) access based on the impression they make with LMs and the general public. If it's mostly old codgers puttering around (this is 99% of what I see) they will slowly but surely gain access all over. If they become vehicles for 20-something shredders to use to self-shuttle every trail at the city park in their armor and fullface... that will end it fast.

    It will be interesting to see what happens.

    -Walt
    You nailed it, Walt. Those are my fears exactly. Once the stigma against ebikes is gone for the "Red Bull Rampage" style riders every singletrack trail becomes a potential self-shuttle shredfest. That, and other trail users have to deal with riders coming at them at 10+ mph from two directions. With no budget for enforcement, land managers will respond to complaints by closing trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Seperating the words out does not change the irony. You're simply attempting to alter context, another fallacy. Furthermore, hiding behind the it's an opinion so it can't be wrong mantra is yet another fallacy. It's still horribly ironic and poor choice of words.

    Thanks for providing a working example for the "divide by zero" descriptor. I really appreciate it.

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    And thank you for demonstrating why ebikes should not be on this site, they just draw in people more interested in flat out arguing than actually having a meaningful discussion. I'm sure you could find another site that would better meet your needs since that is what you constantly demonstrate you are interested in, not bicycles.

    I'm not attempting to alter anything, just pointing out that the subject matter is a lot more complicated than you care to delve into. You're not interested in understanding these fears, you just want pick apart someone's methods rather than their actual points. It's just a sparring match to you, no interest in making any progress in the issues.

    I'm dropping out of this thread, tired of wasting time with these stupid arguments. Go ahead and post more and consider it "a win".
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    You nailed it, Walt. Those are my fears exactly. Once the stigma against ebikes is gone for the "Red Bull Rampage" style riders every singletrack trail becomes a potential self-shuttle shredfest. That, and other trail users have to deal with riders coming at them at 10+ mph from two directions. With no budget for enforcement, land managers will respond to complaints by closing trails.
    And when closing a trail to bikes doesn't work, land managers will respond with nukes. Pro-assist is just a code name for anti-earth-nihilist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    And thank you for demonstrating why ebikes should not be on this site, they just draw in people more interested in flat out arguing than actually having a meaningful discussion. I'm sure you could find another site that would better meet your needs since that is what you constantly demonstrate you are interested in, not bicycles.

    I'm not attempting to alter anything, just pointing out that the subject matter is a lot more complicated than you care to delve into. You're not interested in understanding these fears, you just want pick apart someone's methods rather than their actual points. It's just a sparring match to you, no interest in making any progress in the issues.

    I'm dropping out of this thread, tired of wasting time with these stupid arguments. Go ahead and post more and consider it "a win".
    I've already stated my purpose, in a conversation you were involved in, and it is not arguing. Understanding the fears and allowing that the fears have a place in logical decision making are two completely disparate concepts. Fears, especially those without precedence, have no place in setting a policy or in making decisions. For example, I'm terrified of flying, to the point of phobia. I am resigned to my death the moment the plane begins rolling until the gate opens. Is it rational, absolutely not. As such it's not something that enters into the decision making process when I have to visit China or India for work.

    Fear is an emotion. An argument founded in emotion is a fallacy. When one says I have a valid fallacy do you not see the humor in that? As someone who sees the potential in a loose alliance and who sees a replay of history beginning in how other groups' access are being attacked arguments based in fallacy are worse than useless. They are detrimental. Advocacy is going to change. It will increasingly be fought on the national level and in the courts. As such every dollar and person in support becomes increasingly more important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    You nailed it, Walt. Those are my fears exactly. Once the stigma against ebikes is gone for the "Red Bull Rampage" style riders every singletrack trail becomes a potential self-shuttle shredfest. That, and other trail users have to deal with riders coming at them at 10+ mph from two directions. With no budget for enforcement, land managers will respond to complaints by closing trails.
    It's not going to take e-bikes to do that. The Sierra Club has already taken steps to attempt to make Rampage the face of mountain biking in the eye of the unknowing public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    It's not going to take e-bikes to do that. The Sierra Club has already taken steps to attempt to make Rampage the face of mountain biking in the eye of the unknowing public.

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    Aided and abetted by industry advertising. Yet the SC's efforts have not gained significant traction with land managers outside, say, Marin Co. and areas with similar demographics. Ebikes in the hands of the most aggressive riders has the potential, imo, to take the message nationwide. Industry is already actively marketing to those riders. If the stigma that it's "cheating" falls away, look out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Aided and abetted by industry advertising. Yet the SC's efforts have not gained significant traction with land managers outside, say, Marin Co. and areas with similar demographics. Ebikes in the hands of the most aggressive riders has the potential, imo, to take the message nationwide. Industry is already actively marketing to those riders. If the stigma that it's "cheating" falls away, look out.
    Actually, aided and abetted by mountain bike advocacy groups. They embraced the linking of the Rampage site to mountain biking in general with open arms. Again, they are not going to need traction with local land managers. It will happen above that level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Aided and abetted by industry advertising. Yet the SC's efforts have not gained significant traction with land managers outside, say, Marin Co. and areas with similar demographics. Ebikes in the hands of the most aggressive riders has the potential, imo, to take the message nationwide. Industry is already actively marketing to those riders. If the stigma that it's "cheating" falls away, look out.
    Land managers could give a rats ass about claims of cheating, or that with a motor, you can now keep up with your faster buddies. It's all about impact, both physical and social, and laws. The same thing that mtbs went through.

    What we did wrong, and what the industry/pro ebike is again doing wrong, is ignoring and minimizing the concerns of those who control access. I started riding mtbs in 1985, when they were few and far between, and seeing another person on a mtb was a reason to rejoice. Since they were brand new, there weren't any policies in place, you could ride a bicycle anywhere you wanted. Freedom man, ride wherever, who cares? Once a certain density was reached though, and bikes became visible to the general public, opponents arose and land managers began to close off trails. In their opinion, bikes caused too many problems, so why should they bother?

    Mountain bikers gained acceptance, very, very slowly over the years by forming orgs and being good neighbors and stewards. We started bike patrols, to quell the fears of the hikers. We learned how to maintain trails, then to design and build them, both because we wanted new trails and the land managers had a backlog of work they couldn't accomplish on their own. We went from being a nuisance, to being a valued partner.

    These are the concerns land mangers have with emtbs, in no particular order. And, they're not ignorant fools, they know they are not motos, almost all have ridden them and are becoming increasingly familiar since it's an issue they all have to deal with.

    1) Greater speed, and it's impact on other users.

    2) Greater distance traveled, and it's impact on the trails

    3) Greater power and torque, and it's impact on the trails

    4) Legal issues. While in some states, ebikes are no longer legally a Motor Vehicle under DOT regs, they still are motorized, which can present problems with easments, and property funding. If you have a piece of property that doesn't allow motorized vehicles, you're either SOL, or there will be a bunch of legal hurdles needed to resolve that.

    5) No resources for enforcement

    6) No enforcement on what can be sold as an ebike, passing the buck to them

    7) Their daily experience that idiots will idiot, and they will show up on self proclaimed "ebikes" that aren't even close.

    8) No data on the impact of 750w emtbs, no idea what they will really even be like.

    I've stated it many times before, all of those issues are solveable, but the party line of "It's just a bicycle" doesn't solve any of them, so you're back to why should the LM bother?

    Deal with those problems and there would be a lot of emtb access, and less of the "fear". Ignore it, and it'll end up like the early days of mtbs, where we lost access and never were able to get those places back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I've already stated my purpose, in a conversation you were involved in, and it is not arguing. Understanding the fears and allowing that the fears have a place in logical decision making are two completely disparate concepts. Fears, especially those without precedence, have no place in setting a policy or in making decisions. For example, I'm terrified of flying, to the point of phobia. I am resigned to my death the moment the plane begins rolling until the gate opens. Is it rational, absolutely not. As such it's not something that enters into the decision making process when I have to visit China or India for work.

    Fear is an emotion. An argument founded in emotion is a fallacy. When one says I have a valid fallacy do you not see the humor in that? As someone who sees the potential in a loose alliance and who sees a replay of history beginning in how other groups' access are being attacked arguments based in fallacy are worse than useless. They are detrimental. Advocacy is going to change. It will increasingly be fought on the national level and in the courts. As such every dollar and person in support becomes increasingly more important.

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    I think most of the policies we have to follow are set because of fear. We cant't go 120 on the roads because fear of an accident. I cant just blow by a horse on the trails for fear of scaring the horse. I can't go as fast as I want downhill because hikers fear we will crash in to them. We cant have campfires certain times of the year for fear of lighting the forest on fire.
    These things have happened in the past, but not everywhere they are outlawed. No one has ever been killed by a car going 120 down my street but it is still illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I think most of the policies we have to follow are set because of fear. We cant't go 120 on the roads because fear of an accident. I cant just blow by a horse on the trails for fear of scaring the horse. I can't go as fast as I want downhill because hikers fear we will crash in to them. We cant have campfires certain times of the year for fear of lighting the forest on fire.
    These things have happened in the past, but not everywhere they are outlawed. No one has ever been killed by a car going 120 down my street but it is still illegal.
    No, speed limits are not set based upon fear. They are set based upon engineering and traffic studies, even in the great state of California. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...wJgY1Eph4bMLmg

    You actually refuted your own argument about horses and campfires, "these things have happened in the past. Yes, they have happened in the past and the number of ready examples are plentiful, ie not an unfounded fear. Crafting policy around something that has happened with clear causal evidence is not the same as doing so for "well it could happen".

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No, speed limits are not set based upon fear. They are set based upon engineering and traffic studies, even in the great state of California. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...wJgY1Eph4bMLmg

    You actually refuted your own argument about horses and campfires, "these things have happened in the past. Yes, they have happened in the past and the number of ready examples are plentiful, ie not an unfounded fear. Crafting policy around something that has happened with clear causal evidence is not the same as doing so for "well it could happen".

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    So, It's not an unfounded fear that people are worried about bikes with motors scaring horses and hikers, because that is what they are. Bikes with motors, capable of going much faster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    So, It's not an unfounded fear that people are worried about bikes with motors scaring horses and hikers, because that is what they are. Bikes with motors, capable of going much faster.
    Nice try, no seriously, I chuckled out loud at this so thanks for that. Circular reasoning at its finest. And, no, your statements do not really prove anything. If anything they condemn bikes without motors more as those bikes will be able to more easily achieve a higher maximum speed than a Class 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Nice try, no seriously, I chuckled out loud at this so thanks for that. Circular reasoning at its finest. And, no, your statements do not really prove anything. If anything they condemn bikes without motors more as those bikes will be able to more easily achieve a higher maximum speed than a Class 1.

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    Thank you for the chuckle. Believe me, the fear of getting hit, in my opinion is a horrible reason for bikes to be banned, that is the main reason trails are closed where I live. Unfortunately it is a real reason trails are closed though.

    Thank you for the chuckle though, I can't tell you how many times I have heard on this forum that one of the main reasons for ebikes is the twice as far in half the time. We are talking double or triple the uphill speeds of real bikes. Downhill speeds going up, exactly what hikers and horses want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Thank you for the chuckle. Believe me, the fear of getting hit, in my opinion is a horrible reason for bikes to be banned, that is the main reason trails are closed where I live. Unfortunately it is a real reason trails are closed though.

    Thank you for the chuckle though, I can't tell you how many times I have heard on this forum that one of the main reasons for ebikes is the twice as far in half the time. We are talking double or triple the uphill speeds of real bikes. Downhill speeds going up, exactly what hikers and horses want.
    That's not what you said, you said much higher speeds which isn't true. Now had you said ebikes have a much higher average speeds increasing the likelihood of such an encounter you would have a better argument, one that is dubious, made even more so by your hyperbole, at best, but still better. I'm glad you are able to laugh at your inability to intelligently frame your thoughts. It helps keep things light hearted and less antagonistc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's not what you said, you said much higher speeds which isn't true. Now had you said ebikes have a much higher average speeds increasing the likelihood of such an encounter you would have a better argument, one that is dubious, made even more so by your hyperbole, at best, but still better. I'm glad you are able to laugh at your inability to intelligently frame your thoughts. It helps keep things light hearted and less antagonistc.

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    Arguing over minutia seems to be your currency in these discussions, which in truth isn't productive. But, if it makes you feel superior then please carry on. Putting you on ignore now and I heartily encourage othwers to do the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Arguing over minutia seems to be your currency in these discussions, which in truth isn't productive. But, if it makes you feel superior then please carry on. Putting you on ignore now and I heartily encourage othwers to do the same.
    And your problem is ignoring minutia. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. If you ignore the details constantly it leads to confusion. Therein lies your problem.

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    Muy bueno....



    Has anyone here actually received a ticket for riding an e-bike on a trail?-screenshot-3-.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's not what you said, you said much higher speeds which isn't true. Now had you said ebikes have a much higher average speeds increasing the likelihood of such an encounter you would have a better argument, one that is dubious, made even more so by your hyperbole, at best, but still better. I'm glad you are able to laugh at your inability to intelligently frame your thoughts. It helps keep things light hearted and less antagonistc.

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    Seriously tuckerjt07? You must walk around feeling like Spock in a room full of Kirks and McCoys. Your aura of smug superiority must come from your human side. What a condescending pedantic fool.

    Disingenuous, too, because contrary to the statement above you seem to enjoy being antagonistic and come across as anything but light hearted. If you are anything like your internet persona in real life, you quite possibly have a type of OCD that compels you to be hypercritical of minor faults in others.

    I might hire you as my lawyer, but you would have to pay me to have a beer or ride a bike with you.

    Got that off my chest. Like LBB, time for me to hit the ignore button.
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    Quote Originally Posted by veloborealis View Post
    Seriously tuckerjt07? You must walk around feeling like Spock in a room full of Kirks and McCoys. Your aura of smug superiority must come from your human side. What a condescending pedantic fool.

    Disingenuous, too, because contrary to the statement above you seem to enjoy being antagonistic and come across as anything but light hearted. If you are anything like your internet persona in real life, you quite possibly have a type of OCD that compels you to be hypercritical of minor faults in others.

    I might hire you as my lawyer, but you would have to pay me to have a beer or ride a bike with you.

    Got that off my chest. Like LBB, time for me to hit the ignore button.
    Not at all. However, when someone goes out of their way to insult or belittle someone it is always a good idea to make sure that your logic is sound the next time you try the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    ... access is going to be 1) only human powered bikes, 2) human powered + electric motor bikes or 3) no bikes at all.
    Or 4) more trail access

    Think about it more objectively and open your minds @all... ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiptastic View Post
    Or 4) more trail access

    Think about it more objectively and open your minds @all... ;-)
    Emtbs are going to lead to new mtb trails?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Emtbs are going to lead to new mtb trails?
    They could.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Emtbs are going to lead to new mtb trails?
    I would say quite possibly. I know that's not the narrative that you are used to, but hear me out.
    What is the number one cause of mtb trails getting shut down, or never opened to begin with? Opposition groups: hikers, horse back riders, fringe environmentalists.

    How are these groups able to get the upper hand to shut down trails? Numbers and money. The mountain bike community is relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Lets face it, mountain biking is a tough sport. You not only have to have a certain skill set to avoid injury, but you also have to be really fit to enjoy it. Whereas with horseback riding all you have to do is hang on for the ride, once you buy the horse (in general horse people = lots of disposable income). Just about anyone of average fitness can hike, so again, that's obviously a massive user group.

    What does the mountain biking community need to keep the trails we have and get new ones? Numbers, money (lobbyist, donations, etc), and volunteers. We also need to demonstrate proper trail etiquette, but that has WAY more to do with the person in the saddle, than it does if it has a small electric motor or not.

    Will e-bikes increase the amount of people wanting mtb trails? Absolutely.

    Will it lead to a better financial position of mtb trail advocates as a whole? Yes. More people in riding clubs, more people paying memberships dues to IMBA (if it can recover from their recent issues), more people buying bikes to keep bike shops open and bike companies profitable. More people who have lots of money and land finally "seeing the light" because now they can participate in our sport.

    The reason I keep hearing from mtb users that are opposed to e-bikes on mtb trails is that they are worried that it may give the opposition groups more ammo to shut down trails because they can claim it will lead to increased trail conflicts and "danger". I would say that trail conflicts are highly possibly in high traffic areas, so it would be wise to restrict e-bikes on those trails, but that should be up to the specific land manager. The danger argument is ridiculous. The most danger for other users on a trail is when a rider is descending because of the speeds (can easily be > 20 mph), or when someone rides carelessly. E-bikes are only "significantly" faster than regular bikes when riding uphill, and it's going to be less than 20 mph, and it's a hell of a lot easier to stop when gravity is working against you, vs when you are descending.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    They could.



    We've been waiting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    They could.
    Why would they magically create more trail access?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhioPT View Post
    I would say quite possibly. I know that's not the narrative that you are used to, but hear me out.
    What is the number one cause of mtb trails getting shut down, or never opened to begin with? Opposition groups: hikers, horse back riders, fringe environmentalists.

    How are these groups able to get the upper hand to shut down trails? Numbers and money. The mountain bike community is relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Lets face it, mountain biking is a tough sport. You not only have to have a certain skill set to avoid injury, but you also have to be really fit to enjoy it. Whereas with horseback riding all you have to do is hang on for the ride, once you buy the horse (in general horse people = lots of disposable income). Just about anyone of average fitness can hike, so again, that's obviously a massive user group.

    What does the mountain biking community need to keep the trails we have and get new ones? Numbers, money (lobbyist, donations, etc), and volunteers. We also need to demonstrate proper trail etiquette, but that has WAY more to do with the person in the saddle, than it does if it has a small electric motor or not.

    Will e-bikes increase the amount of people wanting mtb trails? Absolutely.

    Will it lead to a better financial position of mtb trail advocates as a whole? Yes. More people in riding clubs, more people paying memberships dues to IMBA (if it can recover from their recent issues), more people buying bikes to keep bike shops open and bike companies profitable. More people who have lots of money and land finally "seeing the light" because now they can participate in our sport.

    The reason I keep hearing from mtb users that are opposed to e-bikes on mtb trails is that they are worried that it may give the opposition groups more ammo to shut down trails because they can claim it will lead to increased trail conflicts and "danger". I would say that trail conflicts are highly possibly in high traffic areas, so it would be wise to restrict e-bikes on those trails, but that should be up to the specific land manager. The danger argument is ridiculous. The most danger for other users on a trail is when a rider is descending because of the speeds (can easily be > 20 mph), or when someone rides carelessly. E-bikes are only "significantly" faster than regular bikes when riding uphill, and it's going to be less than 20 mph, and it's a hell of a lot easier to stop when gravity is working against you, vs when you are descending.
    Exactly. Great post. I 100% agree. This is the positive side, that many opposers canít see. Obviously Harryman works hand in hand with some LMís and understands the nuts and bolts of things. Im wondering if the LMís he talks to see this side? Also geographically Iím sure LMís also view some things differently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhioPT View Post
    I would say quite possibly. I know that's not the narrative that you are used to, but hear me out.
    What is the number one cause of mtb trails getting shut down, or never opened to begin with? Opposition groups: hikers, horse back riders, fringe environmentalists.

    How are these groups able to get the upper hand to shut down trails? Numbers and money. The mountain bike community is relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Lets face it, mountain biking is a tough sport. You not only have to have a certain skill set to avoid injury, but you also have to be really fit to enjoy it. Whereas with horseback riding all you have to do is hang on for the ride, once you buy the horse (in general horse people = lots of disposable income). Just about anyone of average fitness can hike, so again, that's obviously a massive user group.

    What does the mountain biking community need to keep the trails we have and get new ones? Numbers, money (lobbyist, donations, etc), and volunteers. We also need to demonstrate proper trail etiquette, but that has WAY more to do with the person in the saddle, than it does if it has a small electric motor or not.

    Will e-bikes increase the amount of people wanting mtb trails? Absolutely.

    Will it lead to a better financial position of mtb trail advocates as a whole? Yes. More people in riding clubs, more people paying memberships dues to IMBA (if it can recover from their recent issues), more people buying bikes to keep bike shops open and bike companies profitable. More people who have lots of money and land finally "seeing the light" because now they can participate in our sport.

    The reason I keep hearing from mtb users that are opposed to e-bikes on mtb trails is that they are worried that it may give the opposition groups more ammo to shut down trails because they can claim it will lead to increased trail conflicts and "danger". I would say that trail conflicts are highly possibly in high traffic areas, so it would be wise to restrict e-bikes on those trails, but that should be up to the specific land manager. The danger argument is ridiculous. The most danger for other users on a trail is when a rider is descending because of the speeds (can easily be > 20 mph), or when someone rides carelessly. E-bikes are only "significantly" faster than regular bikes when riding uphill, and it's going to be less than 20 mph, and it's a hell of a lot easier to stop when gravity is working against you, vs when you are descending.
    That's exactly how it can work and has worked with great success for other groups. I'm not sure what is so hard to grasp about this concept. The only thing I can come up with is what has been shown in this thread. Framing arguments from emotion rather than looking at it from a logical perspective seems to be the biggest blocker.

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    E-bikes will not create more mountain bike trails, because e-bikers are too busy arguing that e-bikes don't have motors. Maybe if you guys start doing some actual advocating for e-bike trails and building new trails, we'll all have more trails. Until then, mountain bikers will have to fight to maintain the access we have.

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    How about you look at it like this.. It has been very hard to impossible to gain more access in the area that I live. The opponents have exaggerated, lied, sued to stop mountain bikes from increased access to trails and it is working.

    I am part of an advocacy group that has 3k members in one county. I know that if the all the ebikers in my area came together and went in front of these people and said the things most of you say on here they would probably just blow up the mountain to keep us off. All bikes not just your motorized bikes. They don't care if you are handicapped, old, tired, just looking for a different way to exercise. I have heard them tell horror stories about mtn bikes and end their bs with....now they have motors and you can't tell them apart from the other bikes.

    This is not emotional, this is fact. They were about to ban ebikes completely recently and some people spoke up and got them to re-think it. They did say that on the few trails they allowed ebikes on, top speed of 6mph. That is fine with me.
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    Emtbs shouldnít be allowed in jammed up sensitive ride areas. Iíve also never claimed they are the same as my Mtb and yes they have an electric motor. I also see the benefits to them and personally enjoy riding them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Emtbs shouldnít be allowed in jammed up sensitive ride areas. Iíve also never claimed they are the same as my Mtb and yes they have an electric motor. I also see the benefits to them and personally enjoy riding them.
    Gutch, you're one of the good ones.

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    Thanks man. Being a mtbr and coming from a person that has always enjoyed cycling itís important to identify that this is a new sport. JMO- I think most emtbrs that are mtbrs feel this way, or should. I think in our area we have more issues from tourists on trails. I understand they are a huge income boost to the local establishments, but dang they probably donít even donate money to help chapters.

    My fear of emtbs is newbs running throttle ebikes and the current 750w regulations. 250 IMO is plenty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Exactly. Great post. I 100% agree. This is the positive side, that many opposers canít see. Obviously Harryman works hand in hand with some LMís and understands the nuts and bolts of things. Im wondering if the LMís he talks to see this side? Also geographically Iím sure LMís also view some things differently.
    Obviously, it depends on the local situation you find yourself in. Where I live, in Colorado Springs, no one is trying to kick mtbers off of any trails, equestrians have no organized group, and they're not out to get us. We all get along for the most part. In fact, because of our history of fighting for access, we've been working for years to increase our numbers, our social networks and our bank account. We can turn out more people to public meetings than any other group, and use our money to pay for trails, which only raises our profile and standing with other users. Everyone uses and likes the trails we build.

    I think people overestimate the power that money has in land use decisions. While I could see it being used to try to manipulate public opinion, like in an election. Management isn't up for a vote. At upper levels, I'm sure you can twist arms if you carry enough weight, which often means someone who has an awful lot of money, but that isn't at specific trail access level. Money does pay for trails, but contrary to what some people think, orgs just can't go build whatever trails they want, and then decide who gets to use it. That's all on the LM's, we have to work within their parameters.

    Plus, at least here, there's a number of different agencies that own the land. Parks depts of different towns, county park, state park, land owned by the Utility, and USFS. That's a lot of individuals to influence.

    Land managers don't care how healthy the bike industry is, or the tourist industry, or if the LBS are selling anything, no more than librarians do. If the people who run your local burg see ebikes as a way to put more money in their coffers, then they could have some influence, but they don't directly pull the strings in most cases.

    There are two schools of thought it seems. One, which is that almost all emtb riders will come from the existing pool of mtbers. Two, is that emtbs will develop a new population of riders. Based on what I see on ebike forums, it's mostly mtb riders on emtbs in Europe, or past mtbers. Emtbs are expensive, and riding on true singletrack as a beginner still isn't that easy, even with a motor. Since most mtb riders aren't involved in access, I don't see them becoming involved just because they're on a emtb.

    So, could emtbs lead to building new trails? Sure, in the right situations, where someone can make a buck off of it. If they're legal in some riding destination, and the powers that be think it'll lead to increased visits. Will it lead to emtbers creating an org and building new trails themselves? Nah, I really doubt it. People respond and get involved in political issues, which is what advocacy is, when they are about to lose something, not to get something. If you couldn't ride ebikes on the trails before, and you still can't now which is the situation in most of the country, you're not going to find ebike riders out with pitchforks and torches in front of the parks dept.

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    I was hoping youíd chime in. I personally donít have any dealings with any LMís. I value your information. You make a clear point without personal attacks. Very tactful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Gutch, you're one of the good ones.
    He does seem fairly reasonable, doesnít he?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Obviously, it depends on the local situation you find yourself in. Where I live, in Colorado Springs, no one is trying to kick mtbers off of any trails, equestrians have no organized group, and they're not out to get us. We all get along for the most part. In fact, because of our history of fighting for access, we've been working for years to increase our numbers, our social networks and our bank account. We can turn out more people to public meetings than any other group, and use our money to pay for trails, which only raises our profile and standing with other users. Everyone uses and likes the trails we build.

    I think people overestimate the power that money has in land use decisions. While I could see it being used to try to manipulate public opinion, like in an election. Management isn't up for a vote. At upper levels, I'm sure you can twist arms if you carry enough weight, which often means someone who has an awful lot of money, but that isn't at specific trail access level. Money does pay for trails, but contrary to what some people think, orgs just can't go build whatever trails they want, and then decide who gets to use it. That's all on the LM's, we have to work within their parameters.

    Plus, at least here, there's a number of different agencies that own the land. Parks depts of different towns, county park, state park, land owned by the Utility, and USFS. That's a lot of individuals to influence.

    Land managers don't care how healthy the bike industry is, or the tourist industry, or if the LBS are selling anything, no more than librarians do. If the people who run your local burg see ebikes as a way to put more money in their coffers, then they could have some influence, but they don't directly pull the strings in most cases.

    There are two schools of thought it seems. One, which is that almost all emtb riders will come from the existing pool of mtbers. Two, is that emtbs will develop a new population of riders. Based on what I see on ebike forums, it's mostly mtb riders on emtbs in Europe, or past mtbers. Emtbs are expensive, and riding on true singletrack as a beginner still isn't that easy, even with a motor. Since most mtb riders aren't involved in access, I don't see them becoming involved just because they're on a emtb.

    So, could emtbs lead to building new trails? Sure, in the right situations, where someone can make a buck off of it. If they're legal in some riding destination, and the powers that be think it'll lead to increased visits. Will it lead to emtbers creating an org and building new trails themselves? Nah, I really doubt it. People respond and get involved in political issues, which is what advocacy is, when they are about to lose something, not to get something. If you couldn't ride ebikes on the trails before, and you still can't now which is the situation in most of the country, you're not going to find ebike riders out with pitchforks and torches in front of the parks dept.
    I agree with everything you said as it stands currently and as it fits your locale. I do believe that in the future money, ie funding, will become much more important. Also, in some areas, especially where there is no federal land and the public vs private land demarcation line is very blurred, some builders do have the leeway to build what, where and for who they want.

    I guess you could say I would like to see the two groups work together as I think it has long term benefits, but that I want to see it happen in areas like I described. Ultimately, it is a much lower risk and puts e-bikes in control of their own destiny based on their own merits. If they end up being great trail users and do not cause conflict they have hard evidence of where and how it has worked. If they cannot demonstrate acceptable behaviors then it is on them and they have no one to blame but themselves.

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    Why do you assume that people who ride e-bikes won't build trails? Are you aware of how many famous mtb trails there are in the US that were originally built by motorcycle riders? Are you aware that many professional offroad motorcycle racers, who are among the most physically fit athletes in the world, also ride mountain bikes, road bikes, and now have e-bikes?

    Just because someone rides a bike with a motor does not mean they are lazy. You can get a hell of a workout (equal to a normal bike) on an e-bike if you keep the assist level low, while covering more distance in the same amount of time. The time is all made up on the climbs.

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    So I assume by the non responses and the usual arguing on this forum that the answer to the OP's question is that no one has received or has heard of anyone receiving a ticket on their ebike

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    Where I ride I see zero enforcement anywhere. It would be awful hard to write someone a ticket, with no one around. I understand this may not be the case elsewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhioPT View Post
    Why do you assume that people who ride e-bikes won't build trails? Are you aware of how many famous mtb trails there are in the US that were originally built by motorcycle riders? Are you aware that many professional offroad motorcycle racers, who are among the most physically fit athletes in the world, also ride mountain bikes, road bikes, and now have e-bikes?

    Just because someone rides a bike with a motor does not mean they are lazy. You can get a hell of a workout (equal to a normal bike) on an e-bike if you keep the assist level low, while covering more distance in the same amount of time. The time is all made up on the climbs.
    I don't think he, Harryman, is calling anyone lazy. I think he is looking at a few things and extrapolating. One being how hard it is to build legal trail where he is located. Then once approval is granted how many actually put in effort, labor or monetary, to building it. Those coupled with the relatively low numbers, currently, of e-bikers are where he is coming from I believe. As hard as it is to believe not everyone is attacking or out to get you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I don't think he, Harryman, is calling anyone lazy. I think he is looking at a few things and extrapolating. One being how hard it is to build legal trail where he is located. Then once approval is granted how many actually put in effort, labor or monetary, to building it. Those coupled with the relatively low numbers, currently, of e-bikers are where he is coming from I believe. As hard as it is to believe not everyone is attacking or out to get you.

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    Sorry, I may have misread what Harryman was trying to state. If I am wrong then I apologize.

    I am a mountain bike rider, so I don't think anyone is out to get me. Just presenting a different perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OhioPT View Post
    Sorry, I may have misread what Harryman was trying to state. If I am wrong then I apologize.

    I am a mountain bike rider, so I don't think anyone is out to get me. Just presenting a different perspective.
    As far as advocacy goes, everyone is equally lazy. I was too until I finally figured out the trails weren't just here, or build themselves. I'm not angry about it, it's human nature. The reality is that a very, very small percentage of trail users will trade their free time to create new trails. And then people will always complain about those too lol.

    Ride on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Emtbs are going to lead to new mtb trails?
    Or perhaps the exploration of old trails? I find that I am much more apt to see where a trail leads and not care if it's all downhill to a dead end meaning I have to back track than in the past. Or riding on old systems that are not in use much. Which granted are totally doable by human propulsion, but are just as well done with assist to better explore with a more linear fun factor.

    Has anyone here actually received a ticket for riding an e-bike on a trail?-unnamed.jpg

    This one needs just a little undergrowth management and some riding in and hard to make out from the camera angle, it's in the center of the shot to the left of the bike leaning against the tree. But it is some great Old School track broken up with sharp turns, ups and downs and lot's of roots and off camber that is my fun factor focus more than flow type trails with stunts and jumps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Using the words "valid fear" when describing a situation that has not yet happened to you or become common is horribly ironic. You do know what a slippery slope fallacy is, yes?
    https://bicycling.com/news/a20032253...s-from-trails/

    The Los Alto Hills city council banned cycling recently in Byrne Preserve, a 55-acre nature park in town used by hikers, equestrians, and until recently, mountain bikers. In its explanation of the ban, the city council specifically referenced Strava speed data, asserting that mountain bikers, who in some instances clock speeds over 20mph, ride too fast for multi-use trails.
    In case you have not noticed, the main "valid fear" of those on this site who are heavily involved in gaining access to public lands for MTB use is that of speed. eBikes have the potential to give faster speeds to more and more individuals who could not achieve them without a motor.

    When more and more trail users start traveling those speeds on managed lands, the land managers will take notice and a precedent has already been set in this particular case.

    I know you don't like me because of my personal view of eBikes Tucker, I saw you trying to make a case to the new ownership, but you cannot argue your way out of this one. The precedent has been set, bicycles (including eBikes) HAVE BEEN BANNED DUE TO SPEED. That is a pretty good basis for fear of more trail closures.
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  100. #100
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    Iíve always said Strava is the killer. Were they going downhill on mtbs?
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