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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Forest Service Manual 2353.05“Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is allowed.”

    The Forest service appears to use the same language as the ada, so it appears that they are following the same rules even though they are not legally required to. If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.
    Wheelchairs and OPDMDs are not the same thing under ADA.

    Forest service seems to have different rules.
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Completely subjective of course, and I might not disagree about the movies and vids so much but to claim that video games have more depth than great literature or music is a pretty sad statement to me.
    Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. Definitely an art form though. Many times I choose to do a little gaming in my downtime rather than watching the boob tube or dicking around on the internets; some good entertainment to be had.
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  3. #203
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    I play a few with my son. Hell, I had an Atari 2600 growing up. No big deal.
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    Forest Service Manual 2353.05“Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is allowed.”

    The Forest service appears to use the same language as the ada, so it appears that they are following the same rules even though they are not legally required to. If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.
    Are ebikes

    " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"

    That would solve a lot of arguments here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Are ebikes

    " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"

    That would solve a lot of arguments here.
    Are wheelchairs, are hovearounds? That's what they are marketed and intended for but not what they are designed for. There is nothing inherently unique enough about a mobility impaired person to influence the design parameters. Any individual can use them. Poorly worded statute that leaves the door open for selective enforcement claims if someone attempts to use it in the manner you are.

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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Are ebikes " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"
    It could be argued that they are. Perhaps we should rename the eBike forum 'The Physically Impaired Forum'?

  7. #207
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    It's actually not all the confusing if you take the time to do a little reading. And comprehending of course.

    Certain devices can be restriced from certain trails provided certain requirements are met.
    Devices that qualify as wheelchairs have to be allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed.

    The American Trails page explains things fairly clearly IMO. I've had conversations with ADA people within the past few years that back up what is spelled out there.
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Are ebikes

    " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"

    That would solve a lot of arguments here.
    That is where the Forest Service definition differs - the ADA makes a distinction between OPDMDs and wheelchairs, the Forest Service rules kind of combine the two.
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    It's actually not all the confusing if you take the time to do a little reading. And comprehending of course.

    Certain devices can be restriced from certain trails provided certain requirements are met.
    Devices that qualify as wheelchairs have to be allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed.

    The American Trails page explains things fairly clearly IMO. I've had conversations with ADA people within the past few years that back up what is spelled out there.
    I am well acquainted with the ADA requirements in general and the foot travel item is the catch. This is a guideline intended to prevent discrimination to all users. If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users. The ADA mandate allows usage to certain extents but is liberated from making all trails accessible as the cost and impact to the environment would be too great. As this is up to the land manager they could easily fine a physically impaired user on a trail that was no motorized vehicles because it was not a noted accessible trail. When you go to Yellowstone everything is not accessible there and there is not the expectation that you could use a OPDMD to get into places that maybe you couldn't get in to with a manual wheelchair.

    The OPDMD item is an easy way to essentially white wash a very difficult concept. If a trail is bike use ebikes should be allowed under OPDMD usage by someone with a disability. If the trail is not bikes or pedestrian only, the land manager could easily argue that it is not an accessible trail and is not open to OPDMD. It would be hard to argue that this is discrimination as it is still preventing some one that doesn't have access to a OPDMD from using it. The crux of any anti discrimination law is showing that you are being discriminated against. Accessing hiking trail that didn't meet ADA guidelines for accessibility would be hard to argue as discriminatory as the park either has accessible trails that are available or that it would be imprudent and damaging to the environment to make the trail truly accessible to all.

    It's a sticky wicket for sure but pitching ADA as a right to use Ebikes somewhere is a slippery slope and lest we forget that to actually get any traction in using the ADA you generally will need a class action discrimination lawsuit raised. Of course California is different but for most other states it will be long legal slope to gain back traction and access using this tactic.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I am well acquainted with the ADA requirements in general and the foot travel item is the catch. This is a guideline intended to prevent discrimination to all users. If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users. The ADA mandate allows usage to certain extents but is liberated from making all trails accessible as the cost and impact to the environment would be too great. As this is up to the land manager they could easily fine a physically impaired user on a trail that was no motorized vehicles because it was not a noted accessible trail. When you go to Yellowstone everything is not accessible there and there is not the expectation that you could use a OPDMD to get into places that maybe you couldn't get in to with a manual wheelchair.

    The OPDMD item is an easy way to essentially white wash a very difficult concept. If a trail is bike use ebikes should be allowed under OPDMD usage by someone with a disability. If the trail is not bikes or pedestrian only, the land manager could easily argue that it is not an accessible trail and is not open to OPDMD. It would be hard to argue that this is discrimination as it is still preventing some one that doesn't have access to a OPDMD from using it. The crux of any anti discrimination law is showing that you are being discriminated against. Accessing hiking trail that didn't meet ADA guidelines for accessibility would be hard to argue as discriminatory as the park either has accessible trails that are available or that it would be imprudent and damaging to the environment to make the trail truly accessible to all.
    .
    The issue of making the trails accessible is quite separate from denying access; allowing access doesn't mean guaranteeing passability.

    My understanding based on a number of emails and conversations I had with ADA people while trying to make sense of the whole thing ended up as:

    If someone who is disabled wants to take an ATV (for example) on a hiking trail by claiming it is an OPDMD, in order to deny access, the LM would have had to have done a trail inventory and assessment to spell out why it would be an inappropriate OPDMD for that particular trail, and have that assessment on hand. The link I provided above spells out the allowable reasons for denying that access. If no such inventory has been done, access can't be denied.

    I'm not a guru on the subject by any means, but I asked about very, very particular situations from experts ADA folks in Washington and got as much clarity as I could, as some HoHs were trying to stymie a trail project we were working on by claiming that the trails HAD to be made wheelchair accessible.
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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users.
    The funny thing is, the way we specifically avoided having to worry about any ADA requirements was to have the trail's primary designation be as a biking trail rather than a hiking trail. Only trails that have a primary designation as a foot travel/hiking trail are subject to the ADA requirments. So, in my local example, we could deny e-bike OPDMD access to the biking trails without doing any sort of assessment, but would have to allow them on the hiking trails or do an inventory and assessment to spell out by which criteria they were deemed to be inappropriate.

    Gotta love regulations.

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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by figofspee View Post
    If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.
    It appears they don't really care if you specify you have a disability.

    USFS e-bike Lawsuit

    Our local parks people don't consider ebikes OPMD, but they will let those claiming disability ride them on non motorized trails.

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    Confusing layers of rules and regs aside, I really don't think the issue of disabled access is really much more than an interesting aside. The numbers of folks riding e-bikes under an ADA exemption will remain statistically insignificant in the big picture. I'm all for considering e-bikes as OPDMDs across the board myself. Seems like a fantastic use for them.

    My dad is 74 and a mountain biker. He's also a disabled veteran with 20 years service; his physical issues are from exposure to toxins, so you wouldn't look at him and be able to see anything obvious. He also has done more work on MTB trails than easily 98% of the general riding population. He's definitely going to keep doing into until he drops, so if in a few years, a little pedal assist on his fatbike helps him keep hauling chainsaws (and pizzas) out into the woods, IMHO it would take a real dick to have an issue with that. Of course, so far, he's still pedaling on his own, but not everyone in his situation is going to be as determined (stubborn ) as he is.

    My sister also rides regularly, though she keeps it pretty mellow. She's 47 and has Cystic Fibrosis (47 is pretty long in the tooth for someone with CF - she's also stubbon). It affects here digestion (and therefore weight) as well as cutting her lung capacity to somewhere well under 50%. Once again, you wouldn't look at her and see that she's obviously disabled. Some of you it seems would look at her and pretty much dismiss her as fat, lazy, and obviously unfit to share the trails with the likes of your awesome selves, or even breathe the same rarefied air.

    Once again, she chooses to pedal unassisted, but if a little boost is what it would take to keep her getting out on the trails at some point, it'd take a special type of person to get upset about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Confusing layers of rules and regs aside, I really don't think the issue of disabled access is really much more than an interesting aside. The numbers of folks riding e-bikes under an ADA exemption will remain statistically insignificant in the big picture. I'm all for considering e-bikes as OPDMDs across the board myself. Seems like a fantastic use for them.

    My dad is 74 and a mountain biker. He's also a disabled veteran with 20 years service; his physical issues are from exposure to toxins, so you wouldn't look at him and be able to see anything obvious. He also has done more work on MTB trails than easily 98% of the general riding population. He's definitely going to keep doing into until he drops, so if in a few years, a little pedal assist on his fatbike helps him keep hauling chainsaws (and pizzas) out into the woods, IMHO it would take a real dick to have an issue with that. Of course, so far, he's still pedaling on his own, but not everyone in his situation is going to be as determined (stubborn ) as he is.

    My sister also rides regularly, though she keeps it pretty mellow. She's 47 and has Cystic Fibrosis (47 is pretty long in the tooth for someone with CF - she's also stubbon). It affects here digestion (and therefore weight) as well as cutting her lung capacity to somewhere well under 50%. Once again, you wouldn't look at her and see that she's obviously disabled. Some of you it seems would look at her and pretty much dismiss her as fat, lazy, and obviously unfit to share the trails with the likes of your awesome selves, or even breathe the same rarefied air.

    Once again, she chooses to pedal unassisted, but if a little boost is what it would take to keep her getting out on the trails at some point, it'd take a special type of person to get upset about that.
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. I will also say that unfortunately there are people who are people who are that special.

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    [QUOTE=tuckerjt07;13770083]Are wheelchairs, are hovearounds? That's what they are marketed and intended for but not what they are designed for. There is nothing inherently unique enough about a mobility impaired person to influence the design parameters. Any individual can use them. Poorly worded statute that leaves the door open for selective enforcement claims if someone attempts to use it in the manner you are.


    This coming from a group of people that say they don't have motors on their bikes because the vehicle code tells them they are not a motorized vehicle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post

    This coming from a group of people that say they don't have motors on their bikes because the vehicle code tells them they are not a motorized vehicle.
    Nice strawman, first, for the umpteenth time, I don't own an e-bike and have no desire to do so, you have a poor memory, maybe get that checked? Second, I would love for you to find a single instance of where I have said or agreed with that. Until then it's safe to assume you are incorrect.

    Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring. If you want to coherently discuss statutes, policies, etc. you had best be prepared to spend a lot of time dissecting those finer points. Otherwise it's pointless and worthless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring.
    I think it runs deeper than this. Left me negative rep while putting the following words in my mouth. "You don't need an e bike to get fit." Dah! Seems if you own an e bike and comment favorably it this forum, its going to earn you negative rep. Hmmm. This forum does attract the e bike haters.

  18. #218
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    So in conclusion:

    Some exercise is better than no exercise.
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    So in conclusion:

    Some exercise is better than no exercise.
    This.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    I think it runs deeper than this. Left me negative rep while putting the following words in my mouth. "You don't need an e bike to get fit." Dah! Seems if you own an e bike and comment favorably it this forum, its going to earn you negative rep. Hmmm. This forum does attract the e bike haters.
    I neg repped your post about how you help people lose weight and acting like the only way it happens is because of an e-bike. You do not need and ebike to get fit. Everything you explained in that story would work with a real bike. They would not need to spend the money on an ebike, they could spend 100 bucks on a used bike and get more of a benefit out of it. It is the same boring story repeated on here hundreds of times. If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Nice strawman, first, for the umpteenth time, I don't own an e-bike and have no desire to do so, you have a poor memory, maybe get that checked? Second, I would love for you to find a single instance of where I have said or agreed with that. Until then it's safe to assume you are incorrect.

    Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring. If you want to coherently discuss statutes, policies, etc. you had best be prepared to spend a lot of time dissecting those finer points. Otherwise it's pointless and worthless.

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    I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law, never called out jim-bo etc on their interpretation of the VC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law,
    Well, that would imply that I was part of a group of people to whom that could be attributed. Considering I have never said, agreed with, or will agree with what you attributed to a group you included me in you're just digging your hole deeper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.
    That's a elementary and simplistic way of looking at it. You're assuming that the desire is to ride a bike. The desire may be to use the bike to explore nature and/or see the sights. An obese person may not be able to accomplish a short jaunt off road without assistance and subsequently give up. The assistance may allow them to go further and convince them to keep with it. Nothing about this conversation is black and white or as overly simplistic as you would like to portray it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I neg repped your post about how you help people lose weight and acting like the only way it happens is because of an e-bike. You do not need and ebike to get fit. Everything you explained in that story would work with a real bike. They would not need to spend the money on an ebike, they could spend 100 bucks on a used bike and get more of a benefit out of it. It is the same boring story repeated on here hundreds of times. If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.
    I do not believe that it can be explained to you. You will simply have to run to many birthdays yourself to get past your myoptic views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's a elementary and simplistic way of looking at it. You're assuming that the desire is to ride a bike. The desire may be to use the bike to explore nature and/or see the sights. An obese person may not be able to accomplish a short jaunt off road without assistance and subsequently give up. The assistance may allow them to go further and convince them to keep with it. Nothing about this conversation is black and white or as overly simplistic as you would like to portray it.

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    Bam.

    It's not just about frigging exercise.
    A hell of a lot of us ride mainly for FUN.
    I know I do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law, never called out jim-bo etc on their interpretation of the VC.
    Jim_bo never offered an interpretation of the VC.

    You are just an angry guy with a narrow focus and a poor understanding of facts running around trying to make himself feel superior by giving people grief and neg rep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    You are just an angry guy with a narrow focus and a poor understanding of facts running around trying to make himself feel superior by giving people grief and neg rep.
    I will cut him some slack as I had the same myoptic view when I was younger. I suspect he as never gotten behind the 8 ball health wise and suffered any kind of chronic fatigue, chronic illness or long difficult recovery.

    I can just about be certain that by the time he is 150 years old he will have experienced declining health.


    Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.

    I told my brother about this thread and his answer was "Tell them nay sayers that I can throw a regular bike further than I am going to ride one." Interesting take on it as I has seen him lift a concert grand piano and put it in the back of a truck. At 6' 4" and 285 lb he has a lot of muscle from rebuilding heavy machinery and needs something like the e bike to loosen up stiffness and balance out muscles. Setting the assist level for light fast pedaling helps him quite a bit after moving heavy parts around all day.

    Its not raining, I am going to go cheat for about 30 miles or so on my big fat e bike. All pavement.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post

    Its not raining, I am going to go cheat for about 30 miles or so on my big fat e bike. All pavement.




    How many is that in pedal bike miles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.

    I agree. The remedy for all my health issues has been a bicycle, more fun and fulfilling than anything I've found so far.
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    There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.
    And that is great for them. However, I'm not sure what your point is...

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  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.



    "Needing" a mobility device is a lot different than simply wanting one. I question the veracity of many of these anecdotal tales that are made on behalf of the "miraculous" e-motorbike. If you want one just say so but making spurious claims about "need" is doing a disservice to people that do have legitimate need. If you're that bad off, get an ADA placard but don't blow smoke to advance an agenda.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    "Needing" a mobility device is a lot different than simply wanting one.
    Same goes for mountain bikes. Nobody 'needs' one of those either.
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  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Same goes for mountain bikes. Nobody 'needs' one of those either.




    I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.
    I don't see many claims for e-bikes that use the word need in the Maslow sense either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.
    So people who choose to play with certain vehicles they don't need are unhappy that other people might choose to play with different vehicles, cuz they don't need them?

    Hmmm...I could use an explanation of exactly how that isn't some very f'ed up logic...
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  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So people who choose to play with certain vehicles they don't need are unhappy that other people might choose to play with different vehicles, cuz they don't need them?

    Hmmm...I could use an explanation of exactly how that isn't some very f'ed up logic...



    That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.
    Making spurious claims while complaining about others making spurious claims. This thread has suddenly got entertaining if not enlightening.

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  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.
    Aortic Disection

    While I realize how much fun an eMTB would be on my local trails, I choose to pedal under my own power and recover without a motor.

    Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.
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  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.






    This is quote worthy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.
    Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise.
    So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like.
    Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything.
    Am I correct there?

    And there is no imperative that I'm aware of decreeing that all leisure time activities need to be based strictly on getting as much exercise as possible, correct again?

    So, I guess I'm really missing the point as to why people give a damn how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it. It's obvious that there are people riding e-bikes and getting some exercise. I don't see how that automatically turns into some sort of challenge for others to start waving their fitness e-dicks around. Maybe some of you guys should go start doing Crossfit comps or something, see who can be The Best Exerciser Ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Aortic Disection

    While I realize how much fun an eMTB would be on my local trails, I choose to pedal under my own power and recover without a motor.

    Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.
    Great.
    But so what if some people make different choices than you do?
    Not sure how that's anyone else's business but theirs.
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  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise.
    So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like.
    Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything.
    Am I correct there?

    And there is no imperative that I'm aware of decreeing that all leisure time activities need to be based strictly on getting as much exercise as possible, correct again?

    So, I guess I'm really missing the point as to why people give a damn how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it. It's obvious that there are people riding e-bikes and getting some exercise. I don't see how that automatically turns into some sort of challenge for others to start waving their fitness e-dicks around. Maybe some of you guys should go start doing Crossfit comps or something, see who can be The Best Exerciser Ever.



    Yes, you missed the point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Yes, you missed the point.
    So, what is it?

    Why do you care how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it?
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  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So, what is it?

    Why do you care how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it?




    If you missed the point in the first place you won't understand it a second time around.
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  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    If you missed the point in the first place you won't understand it a second time around.
    FWIW, I'm not terrible at understanding things, so please...feel free to explain why you care so much about the fitness levels of strangers.
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  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    I will cut him some slack as I had the same myoptic view when I was younger. I suspect he as never gotten behind the 8 ball health wise and suffered any kind of chronic fatigue, chronic illness or long difficult recovery.

    I can just about be certain that by the time he is 150 years old he will have experienced declining health.


    Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.

    I told my brother about this thread and his answer was "Tell them nay sayers that I can throw a regular bike further than I am going to ride one." Interesting take on it as I has seen him lift a concert grand piano and put it in the back of a truck. At 6' 4" and 285 lb he has a lot of muscle from rebuilding heavy machinery and needs something like the e bike to loosen up stiffness and balance out muscles. Setting the assist level for light fast pedaling helps him quite a bit after moving heavy parts around all day.

    Its not raining, I am going to go cheat for about 30 miles or so on my big fat e bike. All pavement.
    Type 1 diabetic. At 36 herniated L4-L5, got so bad I could not walk 50 yards without stopping. I was taking 6-10 Norco/day. One day I had to go get my mail and I jumped on my old bike so I could make it in one shot. I didn't have any pain so I rode to town and back. Within one week I was off the norcs and riding as much as possible. Got fully back in to mtbing and snowboarding. I was feeling so good I started riding dirt bikes again. Right after my 40th bday I rode one right in to a tree. Herniated my C4-C6 and was paralyzed for about 1 hour. Long enough to plan who was going to help me kill myself because I was not going to be a quad. Spent 2 mos in the hospital, had to learn to feed myself and walk all over again. My hands are still numb all the time and its been almost ten years. All my muscle memory was erased. I had to learn to ride a bike again. I still can't snowboard because it is heart breaking for me to have no clue how to ride.

    Did it all on a regular mountain bike. I am very happy for the people you know that got help through ebikes but it is very disingenuous to say that it is the only way they could get help. That is all that I am saying, non one needs an ebike to get healthy
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise.
    So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like.
    Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything.
    Am I correct there?

    And there is no imperative that I'm aware of decreeing that all leisure time activities need to be based strictly on getting as much exercise as possible, correct again?

    So, I guess I'm really missing the point as to why people give a damn how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it. It's obvious that there are people riding e-bikes and getting some exercise. I don't see how that automatically turns into some sort of challenge for others to start waving their fitness e-dicks around. Maybe some of you guys should go start doing Crossfit comps or something, see who can be The Best Exerciser Ever.
    I think you have hit the nail right on the head!!

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Great.
    But so what if some people make different choices than you do?
    Not sure how that's anyone else's business but theirs.
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Well, that would imply that I was part of a group of people to whom that could be attributed. Considering I have never said, agreed with, or will agree with what you attributed to a group you included me in you're just digging your hole deeper.

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    I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.
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  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    But you make the assumption that riding an eBike would be the easy way out. I disagree.

    For me, I don't think I have ever regretted going for a ride. I always feel great when I'm done. But the lazy streak in me tries to find excuses as to why I should stay on the couch. Sometimes, I tell myself that "I'll just go for an easy ride". But when I get on my bike, it almost always turns out to be much more than what I planned. I suspect that is true with many people. An eBike may provide incentive to get off of that couch for many people. Once on the bike, the level of exercise is based entirely on the individual and his love for being on two wheels.

    I believe that the assumption that riding an eBike is only for the lazy is about as wrong-headed as it can be. By that same logic, riding a dirt-bike should be a leisurely activity. But when I used to ride dirt bikes, I would typically come back from a ride physically spent. Most dirt bikers would likely agree.


    I'm sure that there are runners who would argue that riding a bicycle is lazy because it is mechanically assisted transportation. But they would be wrong too.

  52. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    No, you are correct: people will choose what they want to choose, for their own reasons. I also shared a couple examples of people I know that choose to ride mountain bikes rather than e-bikes, so I get what your saying, but I personally think the 'easy way out' would be to just give up and retire to the couch.

    Also I'm sure there are many people with similar experiences that do even more than you, so I guess it would be fair to also say that you're taking the easy way out, comparatively.
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  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.
    No pro eBiker that I have seen has ever said that an eBike is not motorized. Many have made the observation that several states/local governments have decided that they will be treated the same as bicycles for legal/access purposes. Also, I have made the observation that class 1 eBikes do not fit the legal definition of a motorized vehicle. And I am right. But that does not mean that I believe an eBike doesn't have a motor.

    It really means nothing when you just make stuff up and then criticize others based on your fantasies. You should try harder to get your facts straight.

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    The writer implies the reader infers...

    It's also disingenuous to consider an e-bike the easy way out. There are multiple studies, using that term loosely, that show energy expenditure for the same length ride can be the same or higher on an e-bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.
    So you're crying because I'm being mean to you? Life isn't fair.

    Also, you do understand that asserting something is managed as a non-motorized vehicle is not the same as saying it has no motor, yes? It goes back to the little things that you find boring.

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  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    So you're crying because I'm being mean to you? Life isn't fair.

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    Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.
    It sounds like crying to me. You basically said you singled me out, you big meanie. As to explaining your post, changing what you said is not explaining. Try to pay more attention to the boring stuff, maybe you won't be so confused next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.
    When you find yourself in a hole, you should stop digging.

  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    This is quote worthy.
    Everyone should go watch Beautiful Idiot and realize who they are. Reading this thread, it’s clear...


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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    How many is that in pedal bike miles.
    I can tell you pretty close. My mileage was 36.8 with an average speed of 14.2. I used 196 watt hours for the ride. That equates to 5.3 watt hours per mile. If I would have used throttle for that route, I would have consumed about 19.2 watt hours per mile. If we take (19.2-5.3)/19.2 X 36.8 we get 26.6 miles equivalent in terms of calories consumed. In terms of joint and muscle movement it would be the full 36.8 miles. I have a cadence of 85 to 100 rpm.

  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    But you make the assumption that riding an eBike would be the easy way out. I disagree.
    Let me re-phrase then.

    Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

    Yes an eBike "can" be a harder workout if you shut off the motor or ride it further or up more elevation.

    In my case I generally only have time to ride once a week for about 2 hours. I ride with the same group of friends and am one of the slower climbers, if I got an eBike I could beat them all to the top of the climbs every-time, I am quite certain of that. We as a group might be able to add a little bit of distance to the weekly ride. I don't think I would get more exercise by doing that and I would feel like I was cheating myself by adding a motor to the mix.

    If someone else wants to ride an eBike where they are legally allowed and ride it in a manner that is safe and courteous to other trail users, I have no problem with that and would not accuse them of being lazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Let me re-phrase then.

    Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

    Yes an eBike "can" be a harder workout if you shut off the motor or ride it further or up more elevation.

    In my case I generally only have time to ride once a week for about 2 hours. I ride with the same group of friends and am one of the slower climbers, if I got an eBike I could beat them all to the top of the climbs every-time, I am quite certain of that. We as a group might be able to add a little bit of distance to the weekly ride. I don't think I would get more exercise by doing that and I would feel like I was cheating myself by adding a motor to the mix.
    You're speaking in absolutes that do not exist. In your case you are constrained by two variables. One that would be tough to change and one that is preference. You are time constrained. Inside of that constraint there is nothing stopping you from getting the same or a better workout on an e-bike, even with the motor on. The second variable is the desire to stay with your group. That's a personal preference. Not everyone will be constrained by that so the assertion of a pedal bike being harder and using more energy is patently false.



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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Type 1 diabetic. At 36 herniated L4-L5, got so bad I could not walk 50 yards without stopping. I was taking 6-10 Norco/day. One day I had to go get my mail and I jumped on my old bike so I could make it in one shot. I didn't have any pain so I rode to town and back. Within one week I was off the norcs and riding as much as possible. Got fully back in to mtbing and snowboarding. I was feeling so good I started riding dirt bikes again. Right after my 40th bday I rode one right in to a tree. Herniated my C4-C6 and was paralyzed for about 1 hour. Long enough to plan who was going to help me kill myself because I was not going to be a quad. Spent 2 mos in the hospital, had to learn to feed myself and walk all over again. My hands are still numb all the time and its been almost ten years. All my muscle memory was erased. I had to learn to ride a bike again. I still can't snowboard because it is heart breaking for me to have no clue how to ride.

    Did it all on a regular mountain bike. I am very happy for the people you know that got help through ebikes but it is very disingenuous to say that it is the only way they could get help. That is all that I am saying, non one needs an ebike to get healthy
    How much proprioception do you still have. A bike balances itself dynamically if you let it but a snowboard does not and generally requires better than average proprioception for dynamic balance.


    Your attitude is interesting. The 80 year old type 1 since youth that I ride with generally clings to his regular bike very stubbornly even when he should not. I have put him on my bike and rode his a few times when the temps were hot and he was in obvious distress. He has some difficulty recognizing low sugar. Seems to do okay recognizing high sugar. He has slowed down a lot in the last two years.


    "No one needs an e bike to get healthy" Dah!, that is so profoundly oblivious as to not even be needed in print. The e bike is a tool and like every other tool has is best uses and limitations.

    On my ride today I ran into 7 other e bikers. All of them were elderly, most of them had some sort of health issues, none of them were in great shape and all of them paid less than $2,000 for their bikes. There were three separate groups of two, two and three. The group of three had just purchased their bikes and had one other ride the day before.


    Not one of them purchased their bikes with the idea of fitness and exercise. Two flat out stated that had someone told them it would give them exercise they would have turned and ran the other way. Five of them were hoping for better joint mobility through going through the pedaling motions. All were very surprised to find a fitness benefit. Not one of them would ride a regular bike, been there, done that its boring.

    All of them mentioned that they bought the bikes to be able to do something together that was outdoors and away from distractions. That was their main purchasing reason.

    There biggest concerns were a lack of people in the area that could repair their bikes. All of them had saddles I would refer to as lazy boy couches. The one piece of equipment that I have they most wanted is the LEV dropper post.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

    Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.
    This is most certainly NOT what I meant. Here is what I wrote: "Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks."

    Funner more fulfilling ways does not imply the easy way out unless you equate fun and fulfilling with easy. It does imply more bang for the buck and for some, that may be doubling down. For others it may mean getting an e bike to experience more with the same effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    No pro eBiker that I have seen has ever said that an eBike is not motorized. Many have made the observation that several states/local governments have decided that they will be treated the same as bicycles for legal/access purposes. Also, I have made the observation that class 1 eBikes do not fit the legal definition of a motorized vehicle. And I am right. But that does not mean that I believe an eBike doesn't have a motor.

    It really means nothing when you just make stuff up and then criticize others based on your fantasies. You should try harder to get your facts straight.
    It has a motor but it's not a motorized vehicle? Hmmm. Ok. Legal definition is only what the land manager/ land agency decides what it is.

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    How much proprioception do you still have. A bike balances itself dynamically if you let it but a snowboard does not and generally requires better than average proprioception for dynamic balance.


    Your attitude is interesting. The 80 year old type 1 since youth that I ride with generally clings to his regular bike very stubbornly even when he should not. I have put him on my bike and rode his a few times when the temps were hot and he was in obvious distress. He has some difficulty recognizing low sugar. Seems to do okay recognizing high sugar. He has slowed down a lot in the last two years.


    "No one needs an e bike to get healthy" Dah!, that is so profoundly oblivious as to not even be needed in print. The e bike is a tool and like every other tool has is best uses and limitations.

    On my ride today I ran into 7 other e bikers. All of them were elderly, most of them had some sort of health issues, none of them were in great shape and all of them paid less than $2,000 for their bikes. There were three separate groups of two, two and three. The group of three had just purchased their bikes and had one other ride the day before.


    Not one of them purchased their bikes with the idea of fitness and exercise. Two flat out stated that had someone told them it would give them exercise they would have turned and ran the other way. Five of them were hoping for better joint mobility through going through the pedaling motions. All were very surprised to find a fitness benefit. Not one of them would ride a regular bike, been there, done that its boring.

    All of them mentioned that they bought the bikes to be able to do something together that was outdoors and away from distractions. That was their main purchasing reason.

    There biggest concerns were a lack of people in the area that could repair their bikes. All of them had saddles I would refer to as lazy boy couches. The one piece of equipment that I have they most wanted is the LEV dropper post.
    Again, you're talking about ebikes on pavement and not on trails, right? Being that this is a "trail" site, most of us are referring to emtbs when we say ebikes as that is what we're concerned about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Again, you're talking about ebikes on pavement and not on trails, right? Being that this is a "trail" site, most of us are referring to emtbs when we say ebikes as that is what we're concerned about.
    Ah...but this isn't a really thread about access concerns (for once), it's about fitness benefits (or lack thereof) of ebikes...just because some he may be using examples that aren't necessarily on MTB trails doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't/doesn't apply to people that use them on dirt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Let me re-phrase then.

    Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

    Yes an eBike "can" be a harder workout if you shut off the motor or ride it further or up more elevation.

    In my case I generally only have time to ride once a week for about 2 hours. I ride with the same group of friends and am one of the slower climbers, if I got an eBike I could beat them all to the top of the climbs every-time, I am quite certain of that. We as a group might be able to add a little bit of distance to the weekly ride. I don't think I would get more exercise by doing that and I would feel like I was cheating myself by adding a motor to the mix.

    If someone else wants to ride an eBike where they are legally allowed and ride it in a manner that is safe and courteous to other trail users, I have no problem with that and would not accuse them of being lazy.
    Again with the cherry picking of data. You assume that a person on an eBike has to choose the same trail or same distance as they would on an mtb. The only thing that holds those variables constant is your bias against ebikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    It has a motor but it's not a motorized vehicle? Hmmm. Ok. Legal definition is only what the land manager/ land agency decides what it is.
    No, you're wrong. The legal definition comes from federal law, so it is what Congress decides it is.

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    Idc what anyone does for enjoyment and/or exercise. I can tell you the other day I ripped my emtb and it was one of the funnest days spent on two wheels. I was cooked afterwards. Beer tasted awesome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Ah...but this isn't a really thread about access concerns (for once), it's about fitness benefits (or lack thereof) of ebikes...just because some he may be using examples that aren't necessarily on MTB trails doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't/doesn't apply to people that use them on dirt.
    Well, he is talking about very elderly people and previously about very obese people. So while you are correct that this thread is about fitness benefits, I think most of us around here think in terms of bikes on trails and Pierre was not and seemed to be taking people's attitudes as snubbing the elderly riding ebikes on pavement. People are free to do what they want to do (as long as it's legal) but I still can't get onboard with something that encourages less exercise to a person capable of riding unassisted (check Battery's thread, he started on a bicycle at 285 lbs). For me, it's either ride a bicycle or ride a motorcycle; I don't really get the "ride an easy bicycle/weak motorcycle" thing. Some, like Tucker, may claim ebikes do not encourage less exercise but I think for a lot people, they will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Some, like Tucker, may claim ebikes do not encourage less exercise but I think for a lot people, they will.
    Not what I said...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Not what I said...

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    Hence the "may".
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Hence the "backpedal".
    FIFY

    You went back and read those posts a bit more carefully this time didn't you?

    I haven't claimed that nor will I claim that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    FIFY

    You went back and read those posts a bit more carefully this time didn't you?

    I haven't claimed that nor will I claim that.

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    wtf? No I didn't backpedal, I just pointed out to you what I had written. Maybe you need to read more carefully.
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    I thought about posting on this topic, but after reading the bickering and the same ole weak arguments over n over I’ll just sit back and watch the shit show from a distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    wtf? No I didn't backpedal, I just pointed out to you what I had written. Maybe you need to read more carefully.
    Uh huh

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I still can't get onboard with something that encourages less exercise to a person capable of riding unassisted .
    So...aren't you also 'capable' of more exercise than you get currently?

    I don't think I can get behind encouraging people to mountain bike because they could be training for American Ninja Warrior 14 hours a day instead. Mountain biking is the easy way out. You must be lazy.
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  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Not everyone will be constrained by that so the assertion of a pedal bike being harder and using more energy is patently false.
    Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.

    I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.

    Yes I COULD choose to not ride with my buddies and put down a few more miles in my 2 hour window, but I am not going to choose that because spending time with my friends AND getting a good workout are more important to me than just getting a few extra miles, those extra miles do not automatically equate a better workout. I would need to wear a heart rate monitor at the very least and track some data from what my typical 2-hour ride is and then compare it to riding a bike with motor assist during those 2 hours and getting some additional mileage in.

    I do not think it is a stretch to say the difference would be too small to make a difference. But it would be interesting to see a true study done to show the results.
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    Somewhat related - I rode my eMTB to work today, 3 miles on a road and 5 miles on a paved bike path. I put my work shirt in my Camelbak and wore a T-shirt, and changed shirts when I arrived. Used Sport and Turbo so I wouldn't have to break too much of a sweat although I did sweat a little. I arrived at work feeling much better than if I had driven. There is no way to ride a bicycle and not use many more muscles than you would expect, and also certain parts of your brain that otherwise are underutilized.

    Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain. Anyone who thinks riding an eBike involves sitting statically and using no muscles is A) Clueless and B) Has obviously never ridden an eBike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So...aren't you also 'capable' of more exercise than you get currently?

    I don't think I can get behind encouraging people to mountain bike because they could be training for American Ninja Warrior 14 hours a day instead. Mountain biking is the easy way out. You must be lazy.
    Considering I often burn more calories than I intake and lose weight I don't need to lose, no, not really. And considering the increasing obesity rates in the US, I'll stick to what I said.

    https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Let me re-phrase then.

    Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

    That's not really true, in either case it depends on how hard you ride. If 2 rides are the same length someone on an ebike could average higher watts (from their legs) than someone on a bicycle just cruising and do the ride in half the time.

    Or someone on an hour bicycle ride might go 10 miles and average 150 watts whereas someone else might go for a 1 hour ebike ride and go 20 miles while averaging 175 watts (legs). Motor or not how much energy you expend depends on how hard you pedal.

    That said I'd guess very few people on ebikes actually push as many watts as their non-motorized counterparts.
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  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    There is no way to ride a bicycle and not use many more muscles than you would expect, and also certain parts of your brain that otherwise are underutilized.

    Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain.
    ^what does that mean? Do you use more brain on an electric bike? or a bicycle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.

    I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.

    Yes I COULD choose to not ride with my buddies and put down a few more miles in my 2 hour window, but I am not going to choose that because spending time with my friends AND getting a good workout are more important to me than just getting a few extra miles, those extra miles do not automatically equate a better workout. I would need to wear a heart rate monitor at the very least and track some data from what my typical 2-hour ride is and then compare it to riding a bike with motor assist during those 2 hours and getting some additional mileage in.

    I do not think it is a stretch to say the difference would be too small to make a difference. But it would be interesting to see a true study done to show the results.
    My arguments are "confusing" because they are based in a premise that you refuse to even acknowledge, much less accept. You acknowledge that in your world not getting the same workout is purely based on personal preference, riding with your buddies. That is not true for every one, some ride alone, especially for training purposes. Heck, would could even make a semi intelligent argument that giving the slowest people in the group e-bikes could create a better workout for everyone.

    The study you are looking for is out there. It was posted on this site some time ago. A bike mag sent a guy out on a time constrained ride using a pedal bike and then an e-bike with the goal being max miles. Of course the e-bike went further but they were shocked that rider output and average heart rate were actually higher on the e-bike. I saw at least one other mag repeat this but it's been so long I forget the who. Yes, you will find pro e-bike rags touting the opposite. The difference is those are typically not full out time trial efforts.

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  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.

    I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.
    Wow. You just won't stop. You cherry picked your data points, unreasonably constrained the equation,, and came to a biased conclusion that fits your agenda. By your methodology, I could literally prove any point I wanted to be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Considering I often burn more calories than I intake and lose weight I don't need to lose, no, not really. And considering the increasing obesity rates in the US, I'll stick to what I said.

    https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
    So you believe that your personal level and method of exercise is the benchmark every other person should strive to match? And futher that it's impossible to output more calories than one takes using an e-bike?

    Don't buy any of it. I know plenty of overweight people that ride regular bikes.
    Don't believe that it's impossible for you to exercise more either.

    I'm still totally confused why some of you care so much about how and how much exercise complete strangers may or may not be getting compared to yourselves.
    Weird, weird stuff.
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  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That said I'd guess very few people on ebikes actually push as many watts as their non-motorized counterparts.
    I don't push as many watts as many other mountain bikers I'm sure.

    So what?
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  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I don't push as many watts as many other mountain bikers I'm sure.

    So what?

    So nothing, just saying.
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    Ebikes are getting people fit. Good article.

    I am amazed at the anti ebike talk in here. Class one emtb will not harm trails if respectfully ridden. Just like regular bikes. There are always gonna be a small percentage of assholes on all types of bikes. The guys that are saying that you won’t improve health by peddling a ebike for one or more hrs is full of crap. One hr of heart beats that are in a range for fitness will help. Oh now they talk about efficiency, you can get off you reg bike and run up hills too. Running is more efficient than biking. Run with weight packs. My point is respect the trails, share the trails, turn in assholes who don’t. Ebike are here to stay. There is money to increase knowledge and access to more trails.


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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    ^what does that mean? Do you use more brain on an electric bike? or a bicycle?
    He means he believe you would use your brain more on the trail than on a paved path.
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  91. #291
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    In the end, getting fit is a result of putting repeated demand on the body for fitness. Your body becomes more efficient at whatever you have it repeat, simple as that.

    One of the laziest things people do is drive a car. One of the laziest things mtbers do is drive their bike to the trailhead, and/or take a shuttle/chairlift up to the top. If you could replace this with something that was powered by your own body, even partly (assisted by a motor), that is a benefit to your fitness. People have plenty of excuses not to do this though. Ebikes are poised to address quite a lot of those excuses. I find that's reason enough for their existence. There's plenty more reasons, but since they don't apply to me I won't try to speak for others, like the disabled or those that aren't fit enough to keep up with riding partners. There will be people still driving their ebikes to the trailhead and taking shuttle/chairlift up, but for those that choose to use it for more fitness, I applaud them.

    I've tried to understand the anti-ebike side of the argument, who try to criminalize them by calling for bans, but I find myself criticizing the person's character more than their argument, so I don't even try anymore. I've used words like crazy, stupid, narrow minded, but is that not like just saying they're human? Really, who isn't a little crazy, stupid, and narrow minded? I'd like to meet them. Just my nature to not judge the tool, but rather judge the user of the tool. If people are assholes about ebikes, assholes while riding regular bikes, I question if they're not also assholes about other stuff. Maybe they know they'd be also assholes on ebikes, but be more enabled, and are worried that there are more people out there that are like them. I know they're out there, but gotta take the good with the bad; can't deny things just because there's arguments against it. There's arguments virtually everything, probably even the most good you can think of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tretopflir View Post
    There is money to increase knowledge and access to more trails.
    Send it to me, I'll build trails with it.

    This thread has reached new levels of silliness, even for the ebike forum.

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain. Anyone who thinks riding an eBike involves sitting statically and using no muscles is A) Clueless and B) Has obviously never ridden an eBike.
    Agreed, that would be very faulty reasoning and I do not believe anyone has posted on this site that they believe riding a pedelec eBike uses no muscles, most (including me) are simple stating when you have a motor to assist on the climbs you use less energy to get to the top of the hill in the same amount of time or faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That's not really true, in either case it depends on how hard you ride. If 2 rides are the same length someone on an ebike could average higher watts (from their legs) than someone on a bicycle just cruising and do the ride in half the time.
    Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?

    Lets look at it this way, if I go walk for a hour I will hit a lower max heart rate during that hour than if I run for an hour. Giving someone a motor does not make the rider work harder, it allows them to put in less effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The study you are looking for is out there. It was posted on this site some time ago. A bike mag sent a guy out on a time constrained ride using a pedal bike and then an e-bike with the goal being max miles. Of course the e-bike went further but they were shocked that rider output and average heart rate were actually higher on the e-bike. I saw at least one other mag repeat this but it's been so long I forget the who. Yes, you will find pro e-bike rags touting the opposite. The difference is those are typically not full out time trial efforts.
    Please link the study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_bo View Post
    Wow. You just won't stop. You cherry picked your data points, unreasonably constrained the equation,, and came to a biased conclusion that fits your agenda. By your methodology, I could literally prove any point I wanted to be true.
    You certainly have been trying to do that since you joined the site. I did not cherry pick anything. I related a personal example, nothing more. I never claimed my personal example was fact for anyone else, but I do think it is pretty average.

    All this is making me want to demo an eBike so bad and start doing some science... lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?
    Because it's a personal choice of how hard you work. Because it's pretty well known that e-bikes cause a flatter heart rate curve, less peaks and valleys, so the average is not going to be too far off. 80% exertion is still 80% exertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Please link the study.
    You can find it just as easily as I can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Because it's a personal choice of how hard you work. Because it's pretty well known that e-bikes cause a flatter heart rate curve, less peaks and valleys, so the average is not going to be too far off. 80% exertion is still 80% exertion.
    So, you are saying eBike riders will always choose to ride harder and get a better workout than guys riding a pedal bike.

    And I am saying that is not true.

    So I guess we can agree to disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    So, you are saying eBike riders will always choose to ride harder and get a better workout than guys riding a pedal bike.

    And I am saying that is not true.

    So I guess we can agree to disagree.
    Please quote where I said that.

    I can quote where you made the spurious, absolute correlation between an e-bike and it being the easy way out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    So you believe that your personal level and method of exercise is the benchmark every other person should strive to match? And futher that it's impossible to output more calories than one takes using an e-bike?

    Don't buy any of it. I know plenty of overweight people that ride regular bikes.
    Don't believe that it's impossible for you to exercise more either.

    I'm still totally confused why some of you care so much about how and how much exercise complete strangers may or may not be getting compared to yourselves.
    Weird, weird stuff.
    And where did I say that? What I did say, or at least tried to say, is that I think trends that move the citizens of the US towards less exercise is a bad thing, especially considering the growing obesity problem. And I think that in general, ebikes could contribute to this trend if they explode and take over like some posters here have claimed will happen. Is it wrong to care about other people's health in general? Sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    And where did I say that? What I did say, or at least tried to say, is that I think trends that move the citizens of the US towards less exercise is a bad thing, especially considering the growing obesity problem. And I think that in general, ebikes could contribute to this trend if they explode and take over like some posters here have claimed will happen. Is it wrong to care about other people's health in general? Sorry.
    You seem to subscribe to a common fallacy here - riding an ebike doesn't necessarily mean someone is getting "less exercise". Maybe they do two five mile laps instead of one, or maybe they are in the same HR zone they would be in on a regular MTB. I know I have been surprised by how hard I go on my eMTB vs. my MTB, and my perceived effort is very similar, I just don't get off the bike and push as much up some of the super steep/rocky stuff I encounter. One of the things that gets me to choose the eMTB over the MTB is that I have a couple of loops that are 1:20-1:30 on the MTB and right around an hour on the eBike. If I only have time for a one hour ride, I'd much rather do a loop on the eMTB than an out and back on the MTB on these trails. The amount of time it takes on the eMTB is much more consistent as well. On the MTB, if I feel like crap the loop will be 1:30 and if I feel great it will be 1:20. On the eMTB, even in full on turbo mode I can only go 8-10 MPH on some of these long climbs. The speed will be 8-10 whether I am at 50% or 80% of effort. On the MTB the same climb will be 4-5 MPH at 80% effort, and I am walking at 50% effort. Huge advantage to be able maintain 50%-80% with the eMTB on the climb and not have to walk when I come to the 30 meter long babyhead strewn wall at 20% grade.

    One of the under-recognized aspects of riding a capable eMTB on steep gnarly trails is how much fun it is to ride up a nasty climb - "uphill flow" is a thing.

    This is a really well done video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7OG9c7N3B4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?
    But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.
    That's what I've been trying to explain. His limitation is he wants to stay with his group. The disconnect is explaining not everyone has that issue.

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