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  1. #1
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    Wiggle between Hub and Cogset

    I recently needed to replace my drivetrain because of wear, and after changing out the crankrings, chain, and cogset, I've developed a problem. It seems there is some play between the cogset and the drive shell on my rear hub. I have torqued the lockring to the correct setting and while there is no play in the plane perpindicular to travel, the cogset "rattles" in a plane parallel to the direction of motion of the bike, i.e. the cogset rattles in the same direction that the wheel turns. I replaced the latest worn out SRAM casette with an XT, and there used to be a an XTR on there before that. The hubs are ISO Kings. All of the cassettes have been 11/34, 9spd.

    I called my LBS and they told me that King hubs are not compatable with 11/34 XTR cassettes This makes NO sense to me as the stack height of the cassettes should be fixed (isn't there a standard for the spacing of 9spd drivetrains???). Can someone speak to the validity of this statement ????

    At any rate, the XTR NEVER rattled, the SRAM didn't either (although it had a much tighter tolerance when slipping it onto the driveshell assembly), but this new XT is chattering all over the place whenever I am not hammering against the cassette climbing (especially on rougher trails). There is actually about an 1/16th inch of rotational play in there....noisy as hell, and I'm sure it's not good for the life of the entire drivetrain. The drive shell of the hub is "nicked" from me hammering away over the past few thousand miles......the tight fit of the SRAM cassette may have made this worse, and now that I switched back to Shimano with a looser tolerance, there is no way for me to tighten the sucker on there without replacing the drive shell assembly - whaddya think???

    Advice? Diagnosis? suggestions???

    Thanks in advance....
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

  2. #2
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    I had helped a friend check his cassette/freehub body for play today. Fairly new XT cassette and it just doesn't fit very snugly on the freehub body, causing a side to side play rather than rotational. I was wondering if it was the hub mfr (Dt/Onyx hub) or the cassette mfr who had the bad tolerances.

    Personally I have ISO's and have had no particular problem as long as they're torqued to spec, and I use XT cassettes. You can always buy a new drive shell from CK (in either aluminum or the more durable but heavier steel version), but if they're small notches you can file them down or use a dremel (carefully now).

    There was a thread about King hubs and certain cassettes needing a lockring with more threads to properly engage in the drive shell, but that doesn't sound like your problem, but you might want to search for that and see if your problem came up.
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  3. #3
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    searching now...thanks for the heads up....

    I found nothing on the King site btw that says anything about imcompatibility with any shimano hubs....in fact, they state that you should USE "spidered hubs" such as the XT and XTR...
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

  4. #4
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    I checked the CK site before replying and didn't see anything; I meant to search the mtbr discussions for similar threads....
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by wXman
    I called my LBS and they told me that King hubs are not compatable with 11/34 XTR cassettes This makes NO sense to me as the stack height of the cassettes should be fixed (isn't there a standard for the spacing of 9spd drivetrains???). Can someone speak to the validity of this statement ????
    First I ever heard of that. I've run XTR on CK hubs for years and they are nice and snug in there.
    I think the problem is your freehub shell is worn. The CK shell is aluminum and not as durable as the steel shell in cheaper hubs. The XT might have a looser fit to it which coupled with the worn shell leaves play. That just my guess though.

  6. #6
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    A little bit of lateral play is fairly normal, but yours sounds f*****

  7. #7
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    I'm having the same problem...

    it's not you - I think Shimano really fucced up with this new batch of XT cog sets.

    I recently had to replace my whole drive train, and when I put the new XT cogset on all 3 sets of my back wheels, it was loose on all of em. My old XT cogset fit perfectly, same with an LX cogset I have (on all 3 wheels). And when I went back to my bike shop with my wheel we tried about 6 other XT cogsets and all of them were loose - and I think they are the new ones (2005).

    Well the only solution they had was upgrade me to an XTR or try an LX - I didn't feel like paying another $100 for the XTR so I went with the LX. And the LX fit perfectly on the 1st try.

    Shimano has to fix problem ASAP or they are going to have a lot of less than happy customers. The LX cogset definitely feels heavier, but at least it seems sturdy.

  8. #8
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    Same problem. Someone in another thread I started suggested I use pop can shims or teflon tape to snug up the fit. It worked.
    The more complicated it is, the more that can go wrong.

  9. #9
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    That was my take too....I'm like "WTF???" I and everyone of my riding buddies all are or have ridden XTR on CK for years...

    As far as the shell being worn....I'm pretty certain that isn't the problem. I took it all apart (again) the other day...and the nicks on the shell really aren't THAT bad. I'm thinkin' similar to AJ below that Shimano messed up a batch of the XT casettes and they're slightly over-sized. The XTR that came off there last year was plenty tight, the SRAM I just removed (more because I hate their gear spacing - but that's a diff story) fit plenty tight too.

    I'm gonna see about getting a trade in for this sucka...it definately ain't right....gonna try my old cassettes on there too to see if I have a similar experience to AJ.....
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

  10. #10
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    sooo...where'd you put the shim? you wrap it around the shell drive? or slip it between the offsets?

    if you got a pic that'd be handy :-)
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

  11. #11
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    Yeah- I have a slight wobble on my XT casette too. I'd like to see where he put the shim. (mine is a 2003 XT BTW, so I think it is just worn out. It didn't used to wobble.

  12. #12
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    For the pop-can method, I cut little slivers of tin and slipped it between the offset gaps between the freehub body and cassette. Just recently, I used teflon plumber's tape. For the tape, I wrapped a couple of tight layers around the freehub body and slipped the cassette down over it. The tape was much easier to use. It worked for me...give it a try.
    The more complicated it is, the more that can go wrong.

  13. #13
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    Need a 0.5 mm spacer...

    I started a thread concerning this exact issue about two weeks ago. Same exact problem.... new XTR 960 rattled on a King ISO drive shell.

    Problem: Shimano reduced new cassette widths by 0.5 mm and will now rattle on King hubs. Classic Shimano.... sticking it to the small guy.
    Solution: King sells 0.5 mm shims to be installed on the drive shell on the back of the cassette to solve the problem. I didn't need to use a new lock ring and I didn't even have to adjust the RD. Just popped the shim on all was fixed.

    PITA, but the solution works. Call King and they will send you one for a price of course. My LBS is carrying these shims so you might want to contact with yours first.

    Good luck,

    EndUser
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  14. #14
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    will be trying that tomorrow A.M. (teflon tape that is....) - actually thought of that myself...just hadn't tried it.

    BTW, I take it, that your setup still has "just enough" clearance to not push the tape down as you slip the cogset over the drive shell??? I would think that if one put too much on there (tape) it would just bunch up along the leading edge of the casette as it was pressed onto the shell.....
    "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

  15. #15
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    No good Figures.....



    GAWD i hate shimano sometimes.....they get a big fat pppppbbbbbllllttttt !!!!

    When will SRAM get their act together and offer a friggin' "normal" drive spacing on their casettes so I can put my $$ in their pockets instead of supporting $hitmano = Microsoft of the Bike World ~:|


    EDIT: hold on here a sec...my casette is rattling in the plane of travel, i.e. from front to back - NOT in the plane of the axle i.e. inboard/outboard....are you saying that fixing what is essentially a reduced "stack height" of the casette will solve this problem???

    thinking a bit more about this....the 11 tooth ring is NOT rattling - in fact it is the only one that isn't, the "free rings" rattle the worst, with the spidered part of the cassette rattling as well, especially on rougher terrain.

    ....hmmmm.....soooo the lock ring isn't able to put pressure on the entire stack because there is too much slop??? That would make sense from what I'm seeing on my wheel

    got me all befuzzled now
    Last edited by wXman; 05-10-2005 at 07:02 PM.
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  16. #16
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    The teflon tape method is for the side to side play, not the play that some are getting along the length of the freehub body. And yes, putting just enough tape on without it bunching up too much can be a little tricky but the tape is cheap and it's easy to make repeated attempts until you get it right.
    The more complicated it is, the more that can go wrong.

  17. #17
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    EDIT: hold on here a sec...my casette is rattling in the plane of travel, i.e. from front to back - NOT in the plane of the axle i.e. inboard/outboard....are you saying that fixing what is essentially a reduced "stack height" of the casette will solve this problem???

    thinking a bit more about this....the 11 tooth ring is NOT rattling - in fact it is the only one that isn't, the "free rings" rattle the worst, with the spidered part of the cassette rattling as well, especially on rougher terrain.

    ....hmmmm.....soooo the lock ring isn't able to put pressure on the entire stack because there is too much slop??? That would make sense from what I'm seeing on my wheel

    got me all befuzzled now
    [/QUOTE]

    Trust me on this one... get the 0.5 mm shim from King and place it on the drive shell behind the cassette. I had the exact same problem... fore and aft rattling in the direction of travel... not side to side rattle. This appears to be a problem with shimano's new generation cassettes. I've had many, many, many XTR 952 cassettes and had no problems before I got the new 960.

    If you look closely, the 11 tooth cog is bottoming out on the drive shell spines first rather than its neighboring cog. This is why the cassette is rattling because the 11 tooth provides no compression force when the lock ring is tighted. The cassette stack height has been reduced by no more that 0.5 mm. Call King to verify, but I guarantee that they will be selling you a 0.5 mm shim to solve the problem.

    Good Luck,

    EndUser
    Last edited by EndUser; 05-11-2005 at 11:04 AM.
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  18. #18
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    well.....here's what $hitmano has done

    First pic: 11T vs 12T rings. Notice how the grooves that line up with the splines on the drive shell are "stopped" on 11T ring and are cut all the way through on the 12T

    Second pic: The 11T cog slipped onto the drive shell. Remember those stops ? This is the furthest you can push the ring onto shell, because the splines on the drive shell are bottomed out at this point. You can tighten the lock ring all you want and it will not tighten the cogset further than what you see here without deforming the end of the splines on your hub, or stripping the threads (which maybe is Shimano's goal - cuz then you'd need a new hub, eh? ). BTW this picture explains exactly what was happening on my casette. The 11T ring was the ONLY one that didn't rattle....because it is actually bottoming out on the end of the drive shell splines and NOT the rest of the casette.

    Third pic: 12T ring on the hub....notice how much further "inboard" this ring is. After putting this new ring on the casette it works beautifully with no rattle.

    The shim solution mentioned above would also work...but - it could push your chain far enough outboard that it rubs on your frame when in big ring and 11T. That would depend on how close the tolerance is on your particular frame, chain line...etc etc etc. I ride a 2ring/bash setup so this isn't as much of an issue for me.

    Still.....what's up with shimano just changing things up on something that has been "standard" for awhile now??? Shady shady shady if you ask me....
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  19. #19
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    Nice pix! Shows the issue(s) clearly! The spacer works fine with CK ISO's BTW - there's enough room at the dropouts/seat/chain-stays. My ace-mechanic told me about the Shimano cassett issues a while ago, and gave me a few different thickness spacers. Works great! Some cassettes need 'em, some don't. In the end - the cassette should NOT wobble at all on the freehub.
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  20. #20
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    I just wanted to share my annoying story.

    I just got a used Chris King wheelset and a new XT cassette. With the cassette I ordered a chris king aluminum lockring because I was aware of the too few threads on the lockring problem, however, the lockring is on backorder. So I try installing the new cassette and notice the lockring just bottoms out on the end of the freebody, like mentioned above. I go to the LBS and get a very small spacer, probably .5mm. I thought maybe the shimano lockring would work with the new shorter shimano cassette, but no, I stripped part of a thread in the freehub. So now I must wait for the new longer lockring and hope that I don't need a new freehub body.

    And what sucks even more is that I can't even ride because I sprained my wrist a month ago and it still hurts.

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