Results 1 to 94 of 94
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    403

    Why 10 spd Instead of 9 spd?

    Other than getting one less gear, of course, it seems to me that one could change the chain rings up front and get the same gear combinations while running the cheaper 9 speed stuff. What am I missing?

    Fred

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    922
    For the true 2x10 system, I suspect the two remaining chainrings are closer to the center of the chainline. The smaller ring being moved outboard and the outer ring being move inboard. This allows the use of all the cassette cogs without creating a cross-chain condition. Additionally, with the chain more parallel to the chainline, there will be less chain rub issues with the front derailleur.

    It's interesting how SRAM and Shimino are approaching the 10 sp option. SRAM with their XX is asking us to pedal bigger gear ratios, Shimano using the standard triple crankset (24-32-44) and 11-36 cassette is allowing us to pedal essentially the same gear rations with less gap between them . I think Shimano is trying not to be left behind by the 10 sp conversion but is unwilling to commit to the real advantages of a 2x10 drivetrain. Personally, I think the Shimano 10 sp. upgrade will made by a confused consumer that is willing to spend $600-$800 to get a 36 gear that they probably don't need, or possibly gaining some advantage by slightly reducing the gaps between gear ratios. The next two drivetrain years are going to be interesting. I'll make the conversion, I just want to make the right one. I believe the two chainring concept will eventually become the standard.
    Last edited by MarkHL; 11-16-2010 at 08:23 PM.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Not sure how everyone else is justifying it, but I would like to move to 10spd in the future because, if using an 11-36t cassette, the wider range of cog sizes in the rear means you can spend more time on one chainring and spend less time using the slower front shifting. It also gives a single chainring setup more range. If you are comparing to an 11-32t or 11-34t cassette , then yes you can get the same setup in 9spd. The 11-36t cassettes are specifically why I want 10spd

    As for SRAM asking you to push bigger gears than Shimano... i think the opposite is actually more true. For the parts that most people can actually afford (X.9, X.7) SRAM offers triple cranks with a 22t granny, whereas all of the Shimano's 10spd cranks have a 24t granny. With a 24t granny and a 36t cog Shimano's gearing is actually higher than the old 22x34 combo, it's close to but not quite as high as a 22x32 combo. So upgrading doesn't give you any lower gearing, but it gives you an extra cog's worth of range from the middle ring especially

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gticlay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,653
    We pretty much hit the sweet spot at 7 out back. Anything after that has been fluff.
    "It looks flexy"

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    We pretty much hit the sweet spot at 7 out back. Anything after that has been fluff.
    I personally disagree, only because I like cassettes with a minimum range of 11-32t and that kind of setup with 7 speeds leads to some huge jumps between gears. For some types of riding that is fine and even preferable, for other its no fun at all

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    922
    Boomn

    I edited my first post when I remembered the Shimano triple uses a 24 small ring. I then read your post where you stated correctly the gear ratios are the same.
    My statement about SRAM asking you to push bigger gears was based on a 26x36 gear ratio (.72) which is higher than a 22x34 (.64).
    Best of my knowledge SRAM XX is offering these chain ring combinations: (26-39), (28-42), (30-45). I can't find number of teeth per cog on their XX 11-36 cassette, but it should be similar to Shimano's.

    I agree that staying on one ring has an advantage, since 90% of my small to middle ring shifts involve a double shift, because I also adjust what cog I'm on too.
    Last edited by MarkHL; 11-15-2010 at 10:49 AM.

  7. #7
    Cthulhu fhtagn
    Reputation: Mike Gager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    440
    Quote Originally Posted by RagerXS
    Other than getting one less gear, of course, it seems to me that one could change the chain rings up front and get the same gear combinations while running the cheaper 9 speed stuff. What am I missing?

    Fred
    technically you could do the same thing with an even cheaper 7 or 8 speed setup. and of course some would argue why you even need more then one gear in the first place
    Specialized HardRock 29er
    Nashbar 29er SS

  8. #8
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHL
    For the true 2x10 system, I suspect the two remaining chainrings are closer to the center of the chainline. The smaller ring being moved outboard and the outer ring being move inboard. This allows the use of all the cassette cogs without creating a cross-chain condition. Additionally, with the chain more parallel to the chainline, there will be less chain rub issues with the front derailleur.

    It's interesting how SRAM and Shimino are approaching the 10 sp option. SRAM with their XX is asking us to pedal bigger gear ratios, Shimano using the standard triple crankset (24-32-42) and 11-36 cassette is allowing us to pedal essentially the same gear rations with less gap between them . I think Shimano is trying not to be left behind by the 10 sp conversion but is unwilling to commit to the real advantages of a 2x10 drivetrain. Personally, I think the Shimano 10 sp. upgrade will made by a confused consumer that is willing to spend $600-$800 to get a 36 gear that they probably don't need, or possibly gaining some advantage by slightly reducing the gaps between gear ratios. The next two drivetrain years are going to be interesting. I'll make the conversion, I just want to make the right one.
    Shimano's MTB 10-sp has been in development for many years. It only seems like they are playing catch up because XX hit the market sooner.

    It could be argued Dyna-Sys is a more refined system. Whether you agree with the design/performance goals is another matter.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  9. #9
    lotto baby
    Reputation: clarkenstein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    553
    Quote Originally Posted by RagerXS
    Other than getting one less gear, of course, it seems to me that one could change the chain rings up front and get the same gear combinations while running the cheaper 9 speed stuff. What am I missing?

    Fred
    IMHO its because companies, bike shops, and websites want to sell more stuff. if they don't change stuff more often than not, then we won't buy it, and they don't make as much money. also, guys in R&D need to justify their jobs, so they'll come up with new ideas all the time. there will be an 11 speed set up probably at some point, who knows.

    there are probably advantages to a 10 speed set up, but there are probably disadvantages as well. just like the 26 vs 29 debate, there is never going to be one that is just "better" than the other.

    personally i could give a rat's a$$ about 10 speed... but i'll be in the market for a new bike next year most likely, and i'll probably end up getting some thing with a 2 x 10 because that's what'll come on it.
    i spurt in the wind, and the wind drug it

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHL
    My statement about SRAM asking you to push bigger gears was based on a 26x36 gear ratio (.72) which is higher than a 22x34 (.64).
    Best of my knowledge SRAM XX is offering these chain ring combinations: (26-39), (28-42), (30-45). I can't find number of teeth per cog on their XX 11-36 cassette, but it should be similar to Shimano's.
    Yep, all correct. But my point is that XX doesn't matter for 95% of riders and shouldn't be used to represent everything SRAM does. For all the normal riders the 26t and 28t grannies are only an option not a requirement. For the X.0, X.9 and X.7 lines they are offering triple cranks with 22t grannies

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    922
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    Yep, all correct. But my point is that XX doesn't matter for 95% of riders and shouldn't be used to represent everything SRAM does. For all the normal riders the 26t and 28t grannies are only an option not a requirement. For the X.0, X.9 and X.7 lines they are offering triple cranks with 22t grannies
    XX was the flagship for the 2x10 system. It doesn't seem like anyone else is really ready yet to commit to the two chainring crankset. (2 ringers with a bash guard don't count).
    So with the other 10 sp/triple options you are gaining only a partial advantage (and the new triples with 36 cogs are going to add overall weight to your bike).

    Clarkenstein: Obsolescence has always been a marketing strategy, but true technological improvements will out sell the hype.
    Last edited by MarkHL; 11-15-2010 at 01:23 PM.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHL
    XX was the flagship for the 2x10 system. It doesn't seem like anyone else is really ready yet to commit to the two chainring crankset. (2 ringers with a bash guard don't count).
    So with the other 10 sp. options you are gaining only a partial advantage (and the new triples with 36 cogs are going to add overall weight to your bike).
    Understood,it just wasn't clear to me what points of comparison you were trying to draw and which ones you weren't.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gticlay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,653
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    I personally disagree, only because I like cassettes with a minimum range of 11-32t and that kind of setup with 7 speeds leads to some huge jumps between gears. For some types of riding that is fine and even preferable, for other its no fun at all
    You are thinking old school gearing. They could make 7 speed with a big range, just bigger gaps, which I would prefer. It's annoying having to make multiple clicks quite a bit of the time. I know I'm not the only one doing that since they have multi click's on the triggers now.
    "It looks flexy"

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    They could make 7 speed with a big range, just bigger gaps
    that's exactly what I said in my comment. I even said i could prefer it in certain circumstances

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    403
    I'm learning a lot with this thread, and it's inspired me to do some research I hadn't considered until seeing some of the responses so thank you to all. This all came about because some guys I ride with have the new XT dyna-sys 3x10 setup and like the gearing. Meanwhile I nabbed a frame I'd like to build and can either go with new drivetrain or recycle the almost new Race Face Deus XC crank and the new 9 spd chains I have on hand. Then I'd put the old stuff back on the current bike and either keep it or sell it whole. Single speeds are not for me. I can see why some would dig them, but it's all up and down where I ride so my derailleurs get used often.

    I'm still undecided, but I am leaning toward sticking with 9 speed for now and this would be my plan:

    Change the small ring on my Race Face Deus to 24T
    Use Shimano SLX HG61 (for 29er) 12-36 cassette
    Move my XT/XTR shifters/derailleurs over from my current bike

    The new XT 11-36 has these gears: 36-32-28-24-21-19-17-15-13-11
    The old SLX 12-36 has these gears: 36-32-28-24-21-18-16-14-12

    I hardly ever use the 11T cog, so it won't be missed. I spend most of my time in the middle and on larger cogs, and you can see above that the five largest are identical. That SLX 12-36 is also 16g lighter than the XT 10sp 11-36 - not by a lot, but worth mention.

    As for the dedicated 2-ring cranks being more centered than the first two rings of a 3x crank, couldn't one simply use the same spacers that get installed to adjust the chainline in order to center the two smaller rings (the idea being to use a bash ring, not to screw up the large ring)?

    I'm not so attached to my stuff that I wouldn't sell and/or return it, and I'm not too proud of it to resist an upgrade. But for the gears I typically use most often this plan sure seems like an equivalent result for a lot less money.

    Fred

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by RagerXS
    That SLX 12-36 is also 16g lighter than the XT 10sp 11-36 - not by a lot, but worth mention
    9spd 12-36t = 425g
    10spd XT 11-36t = 350g

    it's about 20% heavier

  17. #17
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by RagerXS

    As for the dedicated 2-ring cranks being more centered than the first two rings of a 3x crank, couldn't one simply use the same spacers that get installed to adjust the chainline in order to center the two smaller rings (the idea being to use a bash ring, not to screw up the large ring)?

    Fred
    If you have a triple with a 50mm chainline (most external bearings BBs and many recent ISIS and Octalink) the chainline is more correct simply by removing the outer ring.
    SLX Crank 2ring vs 3ring - Chainline
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,724
    As boomn said, SRAM has triple cranks with a 22T granny. The 22-33-bash rings with an 11-36 cogset looks ideal for a non-racer 29er that sees trail-only duty. This is essentially what comes on the Specialized Stumpjumper FSR 29er Expert. For riding on the street or fast fire roads you might want the big chainring instead of the bashguard.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gticlay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,653
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    If you have a triple with a 50mm chainline (most external bearings BBs and many recent ISIS and Octalink) the chainline is more correct simply by removing the outer ring.
    SLX Crank 2ring vs 3ring - Chainline
    Hey Shiggy - I'm running a triple crank as a double with a bash. So the 32 middle ring is best lined up which gear now, the 5th from easiest on 9spd and 6th from easiest on 10 speed? Or 6th and 7th?
    "It looks flexy"

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    922

    Removing the big ring...

    I believe some people would be surprised to learn that for a standard 11-34 9sp and a 22-32-42 crankset only the 13 and 11 cogs offer a larger (harder pedaling) ratio on the big ring. (See chart below)

    I removed my big ring in favor of a bash guard for the following reasons:

    1) more clearance for going over obstacles
    2) only the smallest cogs (11-13) offered more pedaling resistance
    3) the big ring is a safety hazard; basically a dirty saw waiting to cut into your lower leg when you crash.

    The second chart is the Shimano 10 speed ratios with a 24 small chain ring and 11-36 cassette.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Why 10 spd Instead of 9 spd?-capture1.jpg  

    Why 10 spd Instead of 9 spd?-capturex.jpg  

    Last edited by MarkHL; 11-15-2010 at 01:28 PM.

  21. #21
    Tool
    Reputation: Pedalphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,973
    I used to think ten gears would be overkill, and nine was more than plenty until my current 9-speed rig went down and I had to pedal my old backup bike, which is an 8-speed. I never thought I'd miss the difference between 8 and 9 gears, but I did. The gears were too far apart to find a comfortable cadence in some conditions, and I was forced to use the granny ring more often due to the smaller max cog.
    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    403
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    9spd 12-36t = 425g
    10spd XT 11-36t = 350g

    it's about 20% heavier
    Interesting. I guess it depends on the source of info until you actually put them both on the same scale. I was going by 320g for the 12-36 on Amazon. I see on Competitive Cyclist that it has a claimed weight of 305, but at the end of their writeup it says 423g. That's a 25% difference right there!

    Fred

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by RagerXS
    Interesting. I guess it depends on the source of info until you actually put them both on the same scale. I was going by 320g for the 12-36 on Amazon. I see on Competitive Cyclist that it has a claimed weight of 305, but at the end of their writeup it says 423g. That's a 25% difference right there!

    Fred
    Here's BTI's page for the HG61 cassettes. Looks like the other places are getting the weights mixed up between the different sizes of that model. A real world weight from the Weight Weenies listing is 419g

  24. #24
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    Hey Shiggy - I'm running a triple crank as a double with a bash. So the 32 middle ring is best lined up which gear now, the 5th from easiest on 9spd and 6th from easiest on 10 speed? Or 6th and 7th?
    Proper chainline is having the centerline of the chainrings (between the rings on a double) inline with the center of the cassette.

    On a 9-sp cassette this is the 5th cog (which is the only position where using a number for a cog position makes sense as there is no standard on whether you start counting with the smallest or largest cog).
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  25. #25
    Ben-Jammin
    Reputation: CasteelG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    654
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHL
    XX was the flagship for the 2x10 system. It doesn't seem like anyone else is really ready yet to commit to the two chainring crankset. (2 ringers with a bash guard don't count).
    So with the other 10 sp/triple options you are gaining only a partial advantage (and the new triples with 36 cogs are going to add overall weight to your bike).

    Clarkenstein: Obsolescence has always been a marketing strategy, but true technological improvements will out sell the hype.
    Yeah... Shimano sure doesn't seem like they want to commit...

    I mean... they only offer four different two ring options with XTR...

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    922
    Quote Originally Posted by CasteelG
    Yeah... Shimano sure doesn't seem like they want to commit...

    I mean... they only offer four different two ring options with XTR...
    Ya got me there... thanx; It will be nice when the FC-M980/M985 options trickle down to the XT line...
    Last edited by MarkHL; 11-15-2010 at 05:38 PM.

  27. #27
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalphile
    I used to think ten gears would be overkill, and nine was more than plenty until my current 9-speed rig went down and I had to pedal my old backup bike, which is an 8-speed. I never thought I'd miss the difference between 8 and 9 gears, but I did. The gears were too far apart to find a comfortable cadence in some conditions, and I was forced to use the granny ring more often due to the smaller max cog.
    I switch between 8- and 9-speed all the time. Have the same, or nearly the same, large cog on each with the appropriate chainrings. I just shift the rear somewhat more with the 9-speed but never think about the difference while riding.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  28. #28
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHL
    I believe some people would be surprised to learn that for a standard 11-34 9sp and a 22-32-42 crankset only the 13 and 11 cogs offer a larger (harder pedaling) ratio on the big ring. (See chart below)

    I removed my big ring in favor of a bash guard for the following reasons:

    1) more clearance for going over obstacles
    2) only the smallest cogs (11-13) offered more pedaling resistance
    3) the big ring is a safety hazard; basically a dirty saw waiting to cut into your lower leg when you crash.
    I agree 100%. This set up would benefit many more riders than various larger 2 ring combos offered on the heavily marketed 2 x 10's now being sold.

    The sweet spot ring for the vast majority of riders is the 32. Think about it. If you're currently riding a 9 or 8 speed triple with 44-32-22, you're in the middle rig 80% of the time. You use the granny occasionally on long and/or steep climbs (think Slick Rock). Even more occasionally, you shift up to the big ring for those 2 high gears on a long, sustained, fast descent

    So most riders, other than strong racers or trailriders, who opt for 36/28 - and definitely 42/28 - are going to find themselves shifting the front derailleur way more often than they're used to to find a comfortable gear ratio. And they're not going to like it. The front derailleur is the inefficient weak link in a mtb drive train, and the less it's needed the better.

    The only argument I can think of for 10 speed is to give me one extra low gear on my 1 X 9hardtail (with a 32 ring up front). And that will only happen if I start hearing that mtb 10 speeds - for some unexplained reason - are easier to adjust than road 10 speeds, which are finicky enough without extra dirt, mud, grass, etc.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: One Pivot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    6,460
    I dumped my 10 speed for 8 speed. everything about the 8 is better. Useful gear changes, dramatically cheaper gear, crisper shifting. Just wish I did it earlier.

    Remember 11-32 has the same total range, no matter if its 5-10 speed. same with 11-34 and 36. Theres nothing revolutionary about a 36 cog cassette, or 2 front chainrings.. most importantly none of those things are exclusive to any amount of gears. the "benefit" they push with XX could be had with an 11-36 8 or 9 speed cassette and 2 front rings, at a much lower less gimmicky cost.

    XC and dh bikes were using road cassettes with little range for a long time anyway. Nothing has changed enough to all of a sudden warrant huge cassettes. 34 cog cassettes are still really low gearing.

  30. #30
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot
    I dumped my 10 speed for 8 speed. everything about the 8 is better. Useful gear changes, dramatically cheaper gear, crisper shifting. Just wish I did it earlier.

    Remember 11-32 has the same total range, no matter if its 5-10 speed. same with 11-34 and 36. Theres nothing revolutionary about a 36 cog cassette, or 2 front chainrings.. most importantly none of those things are exclusive to any amount of gears. the "benefit" they push with XX could be had with an 11-36 8 or 9 speed cassette and 2 front rings, at a much lower less gimmicky cost.

    XC and dh bikes were using road cassettes with little range for a long time anyway. Nothing has changed enough to all of a sudden warrant huge cassettes. 34 cog cassettes are still really low gearing.
    I use to have a 15-36 five(or 6) speed freewheel.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: One Pivot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    6,460
    I think its a great idea, especially with SS freehubs. stiffer wheels, effective gear changes, and cheap and light cassettes!

  32. #32
    74 & 29 pilot
    Reputation: MTB Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,271
    I rode the Remedy 9.9 at the Trek Demo in my area Sunday. I was thoroughly impressed with the XX 2x10 system. I felt fast shifting, crisp response and less shifting in dramatic terrain changes. I also had fresh legs at the time.

    I'm currently running the stock 3x10 on my 2011 Fuel EX 9.7. It has x.7 shifters and FD, and a x.9 RD. I have not been impressed with the shifters, AT ALL. They are really sloppy and mushy. After shifting with the XX shifters and trying my buddy's XOs, I decided I can't wait until the x.7 break. So, I found x.0 shifters for $129 but only for the 9 spd. I'm going to a 3x9 transmission now and think I'll be a lot happier with much more responsive shifters.

    The crank is 44/32/22. My 10 speed cassette is 12-36 and the 9 speed that I'm replacing it with is 11-34. I think it will be more efficient and I know I won't miss those three extra gears.

    I liked that XX 2x10 a lot, but don't think I'm ready to give my 3x system for 25-35 milers with lots of climbing... yet.

    BY THE WAY, do I have to replace my redrailleur to a 9 spd? I'm new at changing this stuff out myself.

    MTBP
    Last edited by MTB Pilot; 11-16-2010 at 12:49 AM.
    MTBP
    "GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!"
    Turn on the truth: http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/

  33. #33
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by MTB Pilot
    I rode the Remedy 9.9 at the Trek Demo in my area Sunday. I was thoroughly impressed with the XX 2x10 system. I felt fast shifting, crisp response and less shifting in dramatic terrain changes. I also had fresh legs at the time.

    I'm currently running the stock 3x10 on my 2011 Fuel EX 9.7. It has x.7 shifters and FD, and a x.9 RD. I have not been impressed with the shifters, AT ALL. They are really sloppy and mushy. After shifting with the XX shifters and trying my buddy's XOs, I decided I can't wait until the x.7 break. So, I found x.0 shifters for $129 but only for the 9 spd. I'm going to a 3x9 transmission now and think I'll be a lot happier with much more responsive shifters.

    The crank is 44/32/22. My 10 speed cassette is 12-36 and the 9 speed that I'm replacing it with is 11-34. I think it will be more efficient and I know I won't miss those three extra gears.

    I liked that XX 2x10 a lot, but don't think I'm ready to give my 3x system for 25-35 milers with lots of climbing... yet.

    BY THE WAY, do I have to replace my redrailleur to a 9 spd? I'm new at changing this stuff out myself.

    MTBP
    I test rode XT 10-sp and had to shift MORE to get the gears I wanted.

    Yes, you need to replace your 10-sp RD with a 9-sp
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  34. #34
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalphile
    I used to think ten gears would be overkill, and nine was more than plenty until my current 9-speed rig went down and I had to pedal my old backup bike, which is an 8-speed. I never thought I'd miss the difference between 8 and 9 gears, but I did. The gears were too far apart to find a comfortable cadence in some conditions, and I was forced to use the granny ring more often due to the smaller max cog.
    you ride constant-grade fire-roads?
    THAT and road riding are the only benefit I see to 10-sp cassettes
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,431
    To the OP. Originally 10sp was developed as a XC racing gruppo....its just trickled down to all levels now.

    The 10sp was put in place to give similar gaps to a 9sp cassette, but with greater range.

    The greater rear range was required to compensate for only 2 rings out the front (and therefore reduced range)

    2 rings only were needed in order to keep the pedal stance narrow and the chainline tight (the chainline has been creeping wider and wider of late, making the pedal stance wider as a result)

    2 rings were what most racers ran with for world cup XC anyhow.

    What most riders grumble about (and it is valid) is that they get NO benefit from 10sp, apart from the added bonus of less material to wear away. Most people are forced into this change and they don't like it being so.

    Personally I love 2x10, but I'm a WW and an XC type racer, so its targeted toward me
    Rimmer - "There's an old human saying - if you talk garbage, expect pain"

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gticlay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,653
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Proper chainline is having the centerline of the chainrings (between the rings on a double) inline with the center of the cassette.

    On a 9-sp cassette this is the 5th cog (which is the only position where using a number for a cog position makes sense as there is no standard on whether you start counting with the smallest or largest cog).
    I didn't ask my question very well. I know what proper chain line is. What rear gear is the middle ring lined up with the new(ish) 50mm chainline? I think my chainline is actually a thin washer further out than that....
    "It looks flexy"

  37. #37
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    I didn't ask my question very well. I know what proper chain line is. What rear gear is the middle ring lined up with the new(ish) 50mm chainline? I think my chainline is actually a thin washer further out than that....
    A 50mm chainline crank is ~6mm outboard of ideal chainline.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,000
    Every time a gear gets added someone groans. We all heard it when we went from 7 to 8, then 8 to 9, now 9 to 10.

    While I'm normally a fan of simplicity and things that work, I decided to give 10 speed a try. So far so good. Really liking the 2x10 X0 setup I have currently. 10 speed (road) has been used on cross bikes in the mud and muck for awhile now. We'll see how 10 speed stands the test of time, something tells me it'll do just fine.

  39. #39
    Tool
    Reputation: Pedalphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,973
    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    you ride constant-grade fire-roads?
    THAT and road riding are the only benefit I see to 10-sp cassettes
    I live in NH and there are indeed some long, constant-grade climbs that I do. My backup bike is also a very old FS design (a 1995 C'Dale Super V), so the pedal feedback is strongly influenced by chinring selection. While this isn't nearly as much of a factor in modern FS designs, it still can be a factor, and I enjoy being able to stay out of the granny.

    A few things I seldom see discussed:

    1) The smaller the chainring you use, the more you feel the drivetrain. This is becuase you're multiplying your torque more the smaller the chainring you use. While this may be worthless from a performance perspective, those who spend a fair amount of time in the saddle know the value of feel.
    2) Your drivetrain will last longer and you'll be less prone to failures, especially of the chain, if you can stay in larger chainrings. This is because the larger the chainring, the less you multiply your torque, and therefore less stress on the chain and gears (as well as the frame itself).

    When I pedal the 8-speed, I'm forced into the granny more often than on the 9-speed. Not only does that trigger the factors above, but I'm also being forced to make more chainring changes, thus slowing me down and increasing the chances of dropping the chain or otherwise missing a shift at a critical time. Although I don't currently race, this does spoil my fun a bit.
    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  40. #40
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalphile

    When I pedal the 8-speed, I'm forced into the granny more often than on the 9-speed. Not only does that trigger the factors above, but I'm also being forced to make more chainring changes, thus slowing me down and increasing the chances of dropping the chain or otherwise missing a shift at a critical time. Although I don't currently race, this does spoil my fun a bit.
    Only a factor if your 8-sp cassette has a smaller large cog than your 9-sp.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,444
    9 speed is ok, while 10 speed offers very little except enriching those in the bike biz.

    It's called Planned Obsolescence which is generally used to enhance profits.

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,000
    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah
    9 speed is ok, while 10 speed offers very little except enriching those in the bike biz.

    It's called Planned Obsolescence which is generally used to enhance profits.
    While I understand your mindset, and partially agree that the bike business is trying to make money, it's easily argued that there are advantages to 10sp.

    - Given the same gear range a 10sp will have closer gear ratios than 1 through 9 speed.

    - A 10 speed can offer the same gear ratios as a 9 speed, while offering more range on the low end. You're spreading out gear ratios with an 11-36 9 speed cassette.

    - a 1x setup with a 10 speed cassette offers either closer ratios, or more range than a cassette with less cogs


    Most of these things don't matter to people that don't race, but when racing gearing can make a difference. Is it going to make a world of difference? Probably not, but if you like to get into the details the advantages are worth checking out. The bike business making money isn't necessarily a bad thing, in the end it helps fuel the creation of new and cool parts we ride every day.

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: One Pivot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    6,460
    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21
    it's easily argued that there are advantages to 10sp.

    - Given the same gear range a 10sp will have closer gear ratios than 1 through 9 speed.
    a lot of us feel thats a significant disadvantage.. becoming more of a disadvantage the rougher and more variable the terrain becomes.

    if you have a quick downhill that leads you into a short and steep uphill immediately after, you gotta paddle through 10 gears to get into an appropriate gear. if you had 5, thats half as much shifting.

    for a lot of trails you cant keep a cadence.. so having multiple very similar gears is a disadvantage.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot
    a lot of us feel thats a significant disadvantage.. becoming more of a disadvantage the rougher and more variable the terrain becomes.

    if you have a quick downhill that leads you into a short and steep uphill immediately after, you gotta paddle through 10 gears to get into an appropriate gear. if you had 5, thats half as much shifting.

    for a lot of trails you cant keep a cadence.. so having multiple very similar gears is a disadvantage.
    just because possible advantages don't apply to you personally doesn't mean they aren't valid reasons for others or that the product is universally useless. This applies to pretty much any debate over bike setups

    I apologize if you were just trying to provide your side to the debate

  45. #45
    Tool
    Reputation: Pedalphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,973
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Only a factor if your 8-sp cassette has a smaller large cog than your 9-sp.
    30T
    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,444
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    just because possible advantages don't apply to you
    Not trying to be too confrontational, but the only "advantage" I read was the ratio argumant; and come on. . . . the miniscule ratio difference means nothing to most riders. In reality, this is another way of making more money.

    I would not protest so much if 10 speed was not taking over all the good componetry lines. Ten speed is not an innovation.

  47. #47
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,276
    I'm currently building a 2x10 set up using 9 spd crank, front d, and front shifter.
    I'm running a 24t inner and a 36t middle with bash. I'm also planning a 11-36 cassette. All
    built on a niner rip9. I plan on trail riding, road trip riding, and racing more all mountain type trails with.
    The riding I see everyday is in Vegas. It is rocky loose desert with some quick steep climbs and descends. I currently have a 1x9 on my niner EMD 11-36 and 32t. this is what I race XC on.
    My question is; (after reading this thread)
    Should I reconsider the 10spd rear set up? I already have everything, but I'm sure Ebay can help me sell it.

  48. #48
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalphile
    30T
    So replace the 8-sp cassette! Your issues are not because of the number of cogs.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  49. #49
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by rob1208lv
    I'm currently building a 2x10 set up using 9 spd crank, front d, and front shifter.
    I'm running a 24t inner and a 36t middle with bash. I'm also planning a 11-36 cassette. All
    built on a niner rip9. I plan on trail riding, road trip riding, and racing more all mountain type trails with.
    The riding I see everyday is in Vegas. It is rocky loose desert with some quick steep climbs and descends. I currently have a 1x9 on my niner EMD 11-36 and 32t. this is what I race XC on.
    My question is; (after reading this thread)
    Should I reconsider the 10spd rear set up? I already have everything, but I'm sure Ebay can help me sell it.
    Your choice. Look at how you use your current gearing. If you find yourself moving across several cogs on most shifts with 9-sp, then it will be worse with 10-sp.

    You can get a 12-36 9-sp cassette.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  50. #50
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Your choice. Look at how you use your current gearing. If you find yourself moving across several cogs on most shifts with 9-sp, then it will be worse with 10-sp.

    You can get a 12-36 9-sp cassette.
    No so much i find my self in the same 3-4 gears on my current bike and set up. But she is a hard tail so I just stand up.. compared to what my Rip 9 will be (seated in the saddle)

  51. #51
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah
    I would not protest so much if 10 speed was not taking over all the good componetry lines. Ten speed is not an innovation.
    I "upgraded" to 10 speed on my road bike because I run a compact double up front (50/34) and a wide range cassette 11-28. The extra cog is useful on a road bike when you consider the range between 11 and 28 teeth. Old school roadies are used to an average one tooth jump per cog, as on the traditional 11-21 and 12-23 cassettes. Compact is very much new school in the roadie world. You want a big cog for climbing, but you also need the 11 so you won't spin out moving fast in your 50 tooth "big" ring. You can keep your rear cassette to mostly 1 or 2 jumps with a 10 speed 11-28 .

    The downside of a road 10 speed is finicky rear derailleur adjustment. With a 9 speed (or 8 speed), you tighten your rear shifter cable with the shifter tension released in the small cog, and if it doesn't automatically shift perfectly, you might need a quarter turn of your barrel adjuster in either direction. Same with your mountain bike. Takes 30 seconds.

    Adjusting a ten speed road bike is like making love to a pissed off woman. If you're very patient, eventually you'll get her working right. If you're impatient, you're in for a rough ride.

    So how is adding mud, dirt, dust, grass, and what all to the equation going to make a 10 speed mtn. bike work very easily in the real world?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,000
    Quote Originally Posted by rob1208lv
    I'm currently building a 2x10 set up using 9 spd crank, front d, and front shifter.
    I'm running a 24t inner and a 36t middle with bash. I'm also planning a 11-36 cassette. All
    built on a niner rip9. I plan on trail riding, road trip riding, and racing more all mountain type trails with.
    The riding I see everyday is in Vegas. It is rocky loose desert with some quick steep climbs and descends. I currently have a 1x9 on my niner EMD 11-36 and 32t. this is what I race XC on.
    My question is; (after reading this thread)
    Should I reconsider the 10spd rear set up? I already have everything, but I'm sure Ebay can help me sell it.
    If you already have the parts just go with 10 speed. Don't let the retro grouches scare you.

    The argument about having to shift more just means there are more options. With most newer shifters it's very easy and fast to jump 2-3 cogs at a time. I did it on 9 speed and I do it on 10 speed. Personally I'd rather have the option of skipping a cog. With the extra cog at least you have options.

  53. #53
    Mantis, Paramount, Campy
    Reputation: Shayne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,674

    Not My Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt

    The downside of a road 10 speed is finicky rear derailleur adjustment. With a 9 speed (or 8 speed), you tighten your rear shifter cable with the shifter tension released in the small cog, and if it doesn't automatically shift perfectly, you might need a quarter turn of your barrel adjuster in either direction. Same with your mountain bike. Takes 30 seconds.

    Adjusting a ten speed road bike is like making love to a pissed off woman. If you're very patient, eventually you'll get her working right. If you're impatient, you're in for a rough ride.

    So how is adding mud, dirt, dust, grass, and what all to the equation going to make a 10 speed mtn. bike work very easily in the real world?

    The only time I need to make any adjustments is when I change cables. I've been running 10 speed on the road and in the mud for almost 10 years and have had no finiky drivetrain issues. Its "set it and forget it" just like 8 speed, 7 speed, and 6 speed.
    *** --- *** --- ***

  54. #54
    The Hutch
    Reputation: rob1208lv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21
    If you already have the parts just go with 10 speed. Don't let the retro grouches scare you.

    The argument about having to shift more just means there are more options. With most newer shifters it's very easy and fast to jump 2-3 cogs at a time. I did it on 9 speed and I do it on 10 speed. Personally I'd rather have the option of skipping a cog. With the extra cog at least you have options.
    I guess i'll give it a shot and if I don't like it I go back to 9spd when the 10spd stuff wears..

  55. #55
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    The only time I need to make any adjustments is when I change cables. I've been running 10 speed on the road and in the mud for almost 10 years and have had no finiky drivetrain issues. Its "set it and forget it" just like 8 speed, 7 speed, and 6 speed.
    No you haven't. Campy first came out with a 10 speed road cassette in 2002. That would be 8 years assuming you jumped right on the bandwagon. Somehow, I doubt that - though since you are clearly a bike snob, it's certainly possible.

    Since 10 speed off road is brand new, how did you pull that off? Cylcocross?

    Sorry, for most of us "set it and forget it" ended with 9 speed. Before I would ever venture blowing cash on 10 speed off road, I would want some credible evidence that the shifting was reliable and the chains hold up. You're not credible.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  56. #56
    Mantis, Paramount, Campy
    Reputation: Shayne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,674

    I'm Incredible?

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt
    No you haven't. Campy first came out with a 10 speed road cassette in 2002. That would be 8 years assuming you jumped right on the bandwagon. Somehow, I doubt that - though since you are clearly a bike snob, it's certainly possible.

    Since 10 speed off road is brand new, how did you pull that off? Cylcocross?

    Sorry, for most of us "set it and forget it" ended with 9 speed. Before I would ever venture blowing cash on 10 speed off road, I would want some credible evidence that the shifting was reliable and the chains hold up. You're not credible.

    Thanks!

    Do a bit more fact checking on the history of the 10 speed cassette first though.

    Cyclocross and there have been modded "mtb" 10 speed shifters around since at least '04.
    I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
    In my opinion is works as well as any other shifting system I've used.
    *** --- *** --- ***

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,000
    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
    In my opinion is works as well as any other shifting system I've used.
    This is what bothers me about this thread. We have a bunch of people that haven't even tried 10 speed saying it doesn't work and will disintegrate on a mountain bike. I haven't seen many that say they went 10 speed and are now back to 9,8,7,etc speed. Try it before you knock it. There are way too many people on this board that say things don't work with absolutely no experience.

    Heck, I've ridden 10 speed for over a year on the bike that likely sees the worst conditions... my cross/gravel grinder bike. I've done cross races through mud pits, gravel grinders in the winter through snow and ice, gravel grinders through the summer in the rain... you name it. I'm the hardest on that drivetrain and I haven't had to spend any extra time adjusting or toying with it. It's actually fairly impressive when thinking about everything its been through.

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    446
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHL
    I believe some people would be surprised to learn that for a standard 11-34 9sp and a 22-32-42 crankset only the 13 and 11 cogs offer a larger (harder pedaling) ratio on the big ring. (See chart below)

    I removed my big ring in favor of a bash guard for the following reasons:

    1) more clearance for going over obstacles
    2) only the smallest cogs (11-13) offered more pedaling resistance
    3) the big ring is a safety hazard; basically a dirty saw waiting to cut into your lower leg when you crash.

    The second chart is the Shimano 10 speed ratios with a 24 small chain ring and 11-36 cassette.
    You need to update your chart with the 42T chainring ratios

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: johnnyspoke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    935
    I've had 10 speed x7 for 3 months, 500 miles or so all dirt. It's been solid, more so actually than the new x9 9 speed I bought earlier this year for this bike's predecessor. And that was pretty fuss free.

    I've heard that sram and shimano changed the pull ratios (or whatever it's called) with 10 speed so that more cable is pulled per shift. The theory I guess is that this will mean mud and crud will have less of an effect on fouling up shifting. Whatever, it works for me.
    I'm looking forward to regretting this.......

  60. #60
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    Do a bit more fact checking on the history of the 10 speed cassette first though.
    I checked this:
    http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html

    Is he wrong or right? I don't know. I didn't get my Dura Ace 10 speed until about 2005 or so.

    Cyclocross
    With all due respect, cyclocross on a 10 speed Campy drivetrain is no comparison to what we all know and love as mountain biking, and is not convincing.

    and there have been modded "mtb" 10 speed shifters around since at least '04.
    So we're down to 6 years? And what are the specifics? X-C racing? Freeriding at Moab? Because how how you ride off-road and where is very much the point when predicting how 10 speed will hold up.

    I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
    In my opinion is works as well as any other shifting system I've used.
    In my experience and opinion, 10 speed Shimano Dura Ace is noticebaly finicky as compared to any 9 speed or 8 speed. I very much doubt this is a minority opinion.

    Campy may be perfect - hell, the Campy 11 speed may be perfect - but that has nothing to do with mountain biking since they don't make the components.

    What we are talking about is Shimano and SRAM and the jury is very much out as to how easy it will be to keep these 10 speed cassettes, chains and rear derailleurs shifting well in the wild. I may be proved totally wrong, but I predict they will be a major PIA. I also wonder how the chains will hold up.

    I hope I'm wrong because I'm thinking a 1 x 10 will be a good upgrade over my 1 x 9 (giving me one more climbing gear @ 32:36) - IF the chains doesn't skip all over the cassette and then break under load.

    We'll see. You be the guinea pig, not me.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  61. #61
    Tool
    Reputation: Pedalphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,973
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    So replace the 8-sp cassette! Your issues are not because of the number of cogs.
    So, just buy some new gear? Isn't that one of the arguments against more cogs?

    The problem I have with 8 after having used 9 for 3 years is that I either have to choose a smaller range or wider spacing...I don't want either now that I'm used to 9. FWIW - I didn't notice an advantage of 9 gears until I had to switch back to 8, meaning the advantages of more cogs may not be apparent until you go use them on the trail.

    Perhaps I'll hate 10 gears once I have them, but there's also a chance I'll realize an advantage over 9 gears. I won't know until I have that experience. I'm in no rush to have a 10 speed setup, but I may be buying a new bike in the near future, and if it's a 2011 model, it will likely have 10 gears.
    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt
    With all due respect, cyclocross on a 10 speed Campy drivetrain is no comparison to what we all know and love as mountain biking, and is not convincing.
    you sure about that? Looks far worse than what I do to my mtb drivetrain, plus most of them have stronger legs and push harder gears than I normally do on my mtb

  63. #63
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21
    This is what bothers me about this thread. We have a bunch of people that haven't even tried 10 speed saying it doesn't work and will disintegrate on a mountain bike. I haven't seen many that say they went 10 speed and are now back to 9,8,7,etc speed. Try it before you knock it. There are way too many people on this board that say things don't work with absolutely no experience.
    Not exactly. I have a lot of experience with 10 speed road bikes, and it is that not-so-perfect experience which makes me hesitate to blow the cash on a 10 speed mtb drive train. If 10 speed Dura Ace is finicky, how can 10 speed XTR work well in tough off-road conditions? It's counterintuitive.

    Heck, I've ridden 10 speed for over a year on the bike that likely sees the worst conditions... my cross/gravel grinder bike. I've done cross races through mud pits, gravel grinders in the winter through snow and ice, gravel grinders through the summer in the rain... you name it. I'm the hardest on that drivetrain and I haven't had to spend any extra time adjusting or toying with it. It's actually fairly impressive when thinking about everything its been through.
    That makes 2 cross riders who have had no problems. Where are the mountain bikers? I'm waiting for their testimony before I convert my 1 x 9 to 1 x 10.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  64. #64
    Mantis, Paramount, Campy
    Reputation: Shayne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,674

    He's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by dwt
    I checked this:
    http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html

    Is he wrong or right? I don't know. I didn't get my Dura Ace 10 speed until about 2005 or so.


    10 spd came out in 2000
    he was referencing 30 speed and apparently that's when a Record triple crank first came out.
    *** --- *** --- ***

  65. #65
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalphile
    So, just buy some new gear? Isn't that one of the arguments against more cogs?

    The problem I have with 8 after having used 9 for 3 years is that I either have to choose a smaller range or wider spacing...I don't want either now that I'm used to 9. FWIW - I didn't notice an advantage of 9 gears until I had to switch back to 8, meaning the advantages of more cogs may not be apparent until you go use them on the trail.

    Perhaps I'll hate 10 gears once I have them, but there's also a chance I'll realize an advantage over 9 gears. I won't know until I have that experience. I'm in no rush to have a 10 speed setup, but I may be buying a new bike in the near future, and if it's a 2011 model, it will likely have 10 gears.
    Just do not claim 8-sp gear range is inferior to 9-sp when it can be the same.

    Might as well claim the same about 10-sp because you have 11-23 cassette and are comparing it to a 11-32 9-sp.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  66. #66
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    you sure about that? Looks far worse than what I do to my mtb drivetrain, plus most of them have stronger legs and push harder gears than I normally do on my mtb
    I'm not dissing cyclocross - you wouldn't catch me trying that for a second. WAY over my head.

    I'm saying comparing cyclocross on Campy (which doesn't sell mtb drivetrains) to mountain biking on Shimano or SRAM is apples and oranges. And I would rather hear the experience of mtb'ers on 10 speed over cyclocrossers on 10 speed before I blow any cash on mtb 10 speeds.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  67. #67
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    10 spd came out in 2000
    he was referencing 30 speed and apparently that's when a Record triple crank first came out.
    I stand corrected.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gticlay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,653
    I've been running 10 speed since it came out (not OEM, that was sooner). It's a full XT drivetrain. I'm running it 1x10. It works absolutely perfectly in the dry. Took it up to Whistler in September and it was super muddy. Worked perfectly the whole day and I did a lot of runs. It's also been working perfectly in the Pac NW mud we have here now and it's been terribly gunky for the past month or so.

    We still need a 7 or mayyyybe 8 speed XTR or X0 level gruppo so I don't have to double and triple click as often but overall, 10 speed might work better than 9 speed does for 1x_ riding.
    "It looks flexy"

  69. #69
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyspoke
    I've had 10 speed x7 for 3 months, 500 miles or so all dirt. It's been solid, more so actually than the new x9 9 speed I bought earlier this year for this bike's predecessor. And that was pretty fuss free.

    I've heard that sram and shimano changed the pull ratios (or whatever it's called) with 10 speed so that more cable is pulled per shift. The theory I guess is that this will mean mud and crud will have less of an effect on fouling up shifting. Whatever, it works for me.

    Thanks for the report. This is very helpful info for those of us who are on the fence. Is yours SRAM or Shimano?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  70. #70
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    overall, 10 speed might work better than 9 speed does for 1x_ riding.
    Bingo. Exactly what I was interested in hearing about. Thx.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation: johnnyspoke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    935
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt
    Thanks for the report. This is very helpful info for those of us who are on the fence. Is yours SRAM or Shimano?
    Sram X7 Shifters with Sram X9 rear D, Shimano SLX front D, chain and cassette. The crank is shimano non-series dyna-sys...I guess just below slx. It all hangs on a '11 Trek Paragon.
    I'm looking forward to regretting this.......

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation: One Pivot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    6,460
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    I

    We still need a 7 or mayyyybe 8 speed XTR or X0 level gruppo so I don't have to double and triple click as often but overall, 10 speed might work better than 9 speed does for 1x_ riding.
    Why would double and triple clicking be more beneficial to a single front chainring?
    Its all the same, just more filler to paddle through in the middle.

  73. #73
    Old-newbie
    Reputation: g3rG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    379
    I am trying 10 sp on my AM 29er just to get the larger rear cog (11-36). When the 11 speed comes out with an 11-38 rear I will probably give that a shot as well. I don't really like the closer ratios, but I have a Hammerschmidt up front so the big shifts when I go from downhill to uphill are handled there. I do like the lighter chain because it reduces the severity of chain slap on the downhill sections. I don't really like the softer shifting. I had Saint shifter and RD before, and I miss the tactile shifts.

    gerG
    ...uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill ...

  74. #74
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHL
    I removed my big ring in favor of a bash guard for the following reasons:

    1) more clearance for going over obstacles.
    Followed your little tip and rode for 3 hours today with Bash-32-22.

    Did not once miss having a 44, and absolutely noticed the better clearance. In fact, I discovered I had developed an instinct to flinch unconsciously on this bike when clearing a series of rock ledges, for example, or rolling over large log, anticipating that the 44 would hit or scrape the obstacle. It took a while to get I didn't have to worry about that anymore. A great feeling!

    Thx.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    36
    I'm amazed how few people seem to see the benefit of closer gearing....

    I ride a 3x9 with a 11-28 at the back, and I often wish I had more gears in between. I do occasionally think I could do with a 30 or 32 tooth at the rear -- not for technical climbs so much as long steep grinds, but I really didn't like the big jumps of my previous 9 speed 11-32. I'd be very keen to try a 3x10 with a 12-30 or similar....

  76. #76
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    dood, I'm amazed that people want closer gearing... I dunno where you ride, but in my area of ( Real) nor-cal, the changes in pitch are often quite abrupt. A dump of 6-8 teeth is welcome.
    If I'm doing a 'long grind' up a fire-road or whatnot, I cam find 'that' gear using my F&R mechs in conjunction.

    Another thing is, people tout that '10-SPD' has no/limited redundant gears - well, you still have to shift back and forth (F&R) to find those gears sequentially.

    My $.02
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation: KTMDirtFace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    774
    I am so confused with the 2x10 setup.

    I am building a new bike, and saw that the new ones all came with 2x10. So i figured I would order ( I cancelled those orders ).

    Then I found out my brand new Race Face Atlas FR cranks dont work with 2x10..so I ordered 3x9 and a bashguard/chainguide.

    While I can see the benefit of 2x10, I couldn't find anything compatible that made any sense to me.

    Can you run a 2x10 with a bashguard with 24/36 front ring combo? I couldn't figure it out so I am sticking with 2x9 with chainguilde/bashguard...since I know that works. Saved me a ton of money anyway all the 3x9 stuff is on sale now.

    Oh I'm building a yeti sb-66 ( custom from frame up ), the stock kits are 2x10 or 3x10...but with crazy front rings and only 2 bigger tooth on the rear.. I don't think I would even be able to pedal those crazy 2x10 stock setups. ( and could not find any 2x10 front rings anyway that were smaller than a 38 )

  78. #78
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    ^^^The chainline is shifted over (outward) a bit in the 2X10 cranksets IIRC
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    in my area of ( Real) nor-cal, the changes in pitch are often quite abrupt. A dump of 6-8 teeth is welcome.
    If I'm doing a 'long grind' up a fire-road or whatnot, I cam find 'that' gear using my F&R mechs in conjunction.
    For sure, sometimes it is necessary to change gear ratios quickly, which is why I also think that shimano should take some guidance from Campag's lineup and get some decent multi-shift shifters sorted. It is more important in mountain biking than road biking, so I don't see why we can't get similar setups -- a shifter that did 5 up and 5 down in one stroke would be great.

    That's beside the point though. My 2x10 road bike is noticeably nicer in terms of being able to select the right gear, and it does make a huge difference -- and not only for racing, but also for getting up hills with the least amount of pain (or most enjoyment) during more casual rides. I'm all for moving further towards this with mountain bikes.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,724
    It's just personal preference, really. Some folks run a 1x6 setup and it works great for them. I have one bike from the early 90's that still has the old 8-speed XT/XTR stuff on it (11-28 cassette), and I never feel that I need less gap between the gears. On a road bike, I like the closely clustered gears, but for mtb I don't see a need for them. My newer bike has a 2x10 drivetrain, and I find that I just do more double shifting.

    As far as being able to multi-shift through a bunch of gears, that's one of the main things I like about twist shifters.

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,724
    Quote Originally Posted by KTMDirtFace View Post
    I am so confused with the 2x10 setup.

    Can you run a 2x10 with a bashguard with 24/36 front ring combo? I couldn't figure it out so I am sticking with 2x9 with chainguilde/bashguard...since I know that works. Saved me a ton of money anyway all the 3x9 stuff is on sale now.

    Oh I'm building a yeti sb-66 ( custom from frame up ), the stock kits are 2x10 or 3x10...but with crazy front rings and only 2 bigger tooth on the rear.. I don't think I would even be able to pedal those crazy 2x10 stock setups. ( and could not find any 2x10 front rings anyway that were smaller than a 38 )
    If you can run a 2x9 with 24/36/bash, then going 2x10 with 24/36/bash is just changing the cassette, rear derailleur, chain, and rear shifter. You can use the same crankset and chainrings. A 2x setup with a bash is usually just a triple that has the big ring replaced by a bashguard. A dedicated 2x10 crank is a little different as far as chainline and q-factor, but the triple or double with bash will work just fine.

    My Stumpjumper FSR 29er came with a 2x10 and the front crank is 22/33/bash. It appears to be the X.0 triple crank with the outer ring replaced by a bashguard. For a 29er trail bike, this gearing works well for me.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Why 10 spd Instead of 9 spd?-stumpy%2520cranks.jpg  


  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation: splice35mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    21

    10 speed is innovation?

    tighter ratios = not innovation
    double crank = not innovation
    yet another cog in the rear = not innovation

    Here's my take.... I ride a 3x9 system and I like all my gears. I don't think the gaps are too wide. I rarely use granny (22-34), but when I need it, I need it, and I'm thankful to have it. And I use my top gear frequently enough (44-11) to justify having that big beautiful third ring.... even my local trails often involve a 5 minute pavement section, and I enjoy pushing that tall gear home. I would be forced to over-rev with a 2x10 set-up. And what would I be gaining? I can't really think of any specific advantage.

    No, I haven't ridden the 2x10 yet, but I don't think it's really necessary to ride the new stuff to make a judgement call. It's not so complex that you can't readily see the advantages and disadvantages of both systems. But for my style of riding, the advantages of the 3x9 out-weight the advantages of the 2x10 system. If I bought a brand new bike today I'd stick with the triple.

  83. #83
    mtbr member
    Reputation: uzurpator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    504
    splice35mm:

    Why do you need innovation? I personally would settle for just extra utility. In that aspect 10 speed can be better then 9 in certain situations.

    Personally:
    I like tight ratios. I run road cassettes
    I like double cranks (been running them for 4 or so years now )

    So - if it wasn't for my 'installed base' of 9 speed spare parts I would gladly run 10 speeds.

    Point being. I don't mind 10 speed. Shoving that as the only option is a problem tho.

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation: splice35mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    21
    Hey uzu:

    I don't necessarily need innovation, but I do enjoy it when something new and innovative comes along, especially with bicycles. The new 10 speed stuff is being touted as the next innovation, but I don't feel it's innovative at all.... one more ring here, one less ring there, which ultimately means less gear range available to the rider. Again, I use my lowest gears, and I use my highest gears often enough. So for me, 10 speed isn't an innovation..... it's literally a step backwards as far as utility goes. I honestly think it's a step backwards for most mountain bikers.

  85. #85
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    a step backwards? For MTB?

    ABSO FUKKIN LUTELY

    Narrower range is #1 in my book
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  86. #86
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    2X8 is great
    7? sure,,,even wider dish
    6? F-yeah! bring it!

    This IS MTB right? not gradual fire road biking?
    SI?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gticlay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,653
    After riding 9speed for a long time and 10 speed for about a year now, I still wish they would make a super durable, light 7 speed with bigger gaps. Still 11-36 but more jump between gears. It's so annoying double clicking the shifer all the time.
    "It looks flexy"

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: splice35mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay View Post
    After riding 9speed for a long time and 10 speed for about a year now, I still wish they would make a super durable, light 7 speed with bigger gaps. Still 11-36 but more jump between gears. It's so annoying double clicking the shifer all the time.
    Interesting idea. I agree with wanting bigger gaps between gears, not the new closer gear ratios. Give me my short gear, and my tall gear, and less gears in between. Maybe this view has something to do with my off-road motorcycle background as well... there you shift one gear and it really means something.

  89. #89
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    ^^^ Thats what i'm talkin' 'bout!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  90. #90
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    84
    I mostly just ride single track for Xterra Triathlons. I'm basically a recreational user but Once I finally kill my crap 3x8 I intend to jump to 2x9 or 2x10 to simplify things. Is the front crankset sizing for 8, 9, and 10 the same or do I need a specific crankset for each of the 3 sizes? I mostly just ride my middle ring and even considered a single ring up front. I just figured the cross chaining might be more of an issue with only 1 front ring.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,142
    IT all can work, it's just fine tuning. On my 3x9 combo xc/fr bike i kind of did what shimano did i got a closer ratio 26/32/38(dh ring) and the front shifts amazingly quick but there is overlap,i just don't worry about it and pedal. The bigger grannys are excellent sometimes because the 22 is too low with the 34 for hammering through an uphill rockgarden and the 30 and the 26 are pretty huge gaps. I do have an older bike i use in the rain(mostly) with a 20 low gear,that's just an all out bail out /waiting for people gear. If a section relatively smooth steep and grippy and i'm a bit fried,shift to the granny and chill for a minute,better than stopping keeps the lactic acid circulating. A mountainbike with 2x10 is more crossshiftable than a roadbike because the chainstays are longer ,especially on a 29er,so it does make sense to use all the gears.Going to a really small chainring on a 2x10 is sort of wrong because then you sort of have a 1x10 with a bailout low. On my 2x10 i spend most of my time in big ring on the bigger middle(17-32) of the cluster or in the small ring on the smaller side of the middle(13-26).I have a number of bikes i'm not really keeping track of the chain life on the new 2x10,still oem from november of last year, so it's not to bad.I had problems(bad luck) with the sram xx deraileur and shifter and switched to the shadow xt stuff(nice) but the chain is still the original.

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    48
    I was skeptical of 10 speed for mtn bikes, but by chance, I got a 10spd xt group (from 9spd xtr) and now I am sold. 10 speed xt has out performed my 9 spd XTR:

    - better shifting than 9 speed
    - better climbing gearing
    - allows me to use big ring longer
    - 1-1 sram-like cable pull
    - more positive action shifters
    - like the ergo of 10 spd shifters, love that thumb cradle for the 2-way trigger paddle shifting
    - 10 spd mtn chain is amazing

    Never was a fan of 9 speed, preferred 8 over 9, but 10 is getting pretty close to 8 spd performance and reliability. I'm sold, but its just my experience. I'm sure others have different experience.

  93. #93
    G
    G is offline
    Mr. Lurker
    Reputation: G's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    457
    For me, it's the 36T cog.

  94. #94
    NWS
    NWS is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,434
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay View Post
    After riding 9speed for a long time and 10 speed for about a year now, I still wish they would make a super durable, light 7 speed with bigger gaps. Still 11-36 but more jump between gears. It's so annoying double clicking the shifer all the time.
    Same here. The sole reason I went 10-speed on my current bike was to get an 11-36 cassette.

    I would have stayed with 9-speed (and upgraded the cassettes on my 9-speed bike) if those cassettes were readily available. The extra range is nice, but I'd be even happier with fewer cogs, less double-clicking, stronger chain, and deeper dish.

    Hey, I think I just wrote Shimano's 7-speed marketing campaign for 2015!

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •