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Thread: is this true...

  1. #1
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    is this true...

    Im frequently out of the loop, but from what I can tell Shimano is only offerring XTR rapid rise read derailleurs?

    Is this true????

    Does anyone prefer the prior model (is it the 950?)

    And just for the record anyone prefer the old (953?) XTR top pull, bottom swing derailleur to the new 961?

    (I am trying to mate them with suntour xc-pro thumb shifters, BTW)


    thanks
    ben

  2. #2
    Au'Right!
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    Ha Retro grouch like me!

    Yup shimano has now made your stuff even more obselete and soon not available so you'll have to upgrade. Thats thier M.O. Rapid Demise only on rear der. As for the front the new der. have nice big pivots for stiffness and durability. People wonder why I exclusively singlespeed. If I didn't my sh*t would be obselete now. Good luck and BTW I love Suntour XC-Pro stuff. Man that brings me back. Oh and 8 spd still rules....grumble, grumble..

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the update - only RR - that's a big surpirse. Im defnitely an 8 speed holdout as well.

    Do you think the suntour thumbies will have any difficulties with the new 961 FRand 960 RD in funcitonality (springs too hard, counter-intuitive shifting, etc). Or should I search desperately for a 953 RD?

    I was planning on adding a rollamajig (the old aluminum kind) anyway, as my curent suntour thumbies is having a little difficulty holding my old old XT RD at the top end (ists also dirty and probably has to short a RD cable), but I am about to build a new bike, and want to go whole hog.

    Thanks

    Ben

  4. #4
    Au'Right!
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    Hummm

    Well you very well might run into some problems. Yes it will take some getting used to. The spring tensions have been changed since that era. Shimano shortly after that when to thier "Light touch" era in an effort to make thier rear der. incompatable with SRAM grip shift (there was a big law suit over that one). To an extent that will disrupt your shifting? I couldn't tell except by feel and sound. I'd just find a regular rear der. I have a brand new 03 XT Long cage sitting in my parts bin I was saving as a spare. If your interested let me know. I'd say a lot of bike shops probably have some XTR's lying around. I think one here on island may even have one in the case.

  5. #5
    JmZ
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    The 952 Rear mechs are stil available out there.

    I'm using Paul's thumbies teamed with Ultegra shifters and a XTR 952 Rear mech. The 951's and the 953's are the previous generation Rapid (Demise, ahem) Rise. Works fine.

    I wasn't able to get the Suntour thumbies to work, but more power to ya if you could!

    Good luck,

    JmZ

    PS - Watch E-Bay too... I've seen ones that look almost new for at or under $50.


    Quote Originally Posted by shapirob
    Thanks for the update - only RR - that's a big surpirse. Im defnitely an 8 speed holdout as well.

    Do you think the suntour thumbies will have any difficulties with the new 961 FRand 960 RD in funcitonality (springs too hard, counter-intuitive shifting, etc). Or should I search desperately for a 953 RD?

    I was planning on adding a rollamajig (the old aluminum kind) anyway, as my curent suntour thumbies is having a little difficulty holding my old old XT RD at the top end (ists also dirty and probably has to short a RD cable), but I am about to build a new bike, and want to go whole hog.

    Thanks

    Ben
    JmZ

    From one flat land to another.

    Advocate as if your ride depends on it...

  6. #6
    Ebo
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    What kind of cassette are you running and why get the newest Shimano derailleur when there are plenty of previous models available?

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    Thanks for the info - sounds like I should stick to the 952 RD then. Any difference up front that would be an advantage for the 961 or the prior XTR - is there the same deal with spring tension or is that only for the rear?

    Also - JmZ - what was the problem with the suntour shifters - that is a bit concerning - Ive heard people run them with XTR derailleurs with success? BTW - how do the Pauls work in comparison?

    As for cassettes - Im stocking up a bit - I have an 8sp xtr 900 and 950 and was thinking of getting one more - I might try to have two bikes with this set-up if the first works???!

    b

  8. #8
    Mantis, Paramount, Campy
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    There Are No Issues Between Shifters And Derailleurs

    Well, except mixing SRAM and non-SRAM.

    Suntour thumbshifters will work with M961 rear derailleurs, M95x, M900, ....Campy, Huret, Sachs, ... anything. The issue that arrises is that some (most?) Suntour shifters are not spaced properly for a Shimano cassette no matter what derailleur is used. There is really no way around this.
    That said, a lot of people have had sucess with it. Derailleurs with floating top pullies (most Shimano models and everything available today) can make up the difference in cog spacing most of the time. It will be hit or miss and also depends on how tolerant you are to slight shifting imperfections.

    The only way for it to work 100% is to make sure you have some of the last batch of XC-Pro shifters that were made for Shimano cassette spacing.

    As far as front derailleurs if you have to have a new one, see if you can try one at a shop or borrow a friends. I'd recommend picking up a M901 or XC-Pro. They'll be cheaper, lighter, and arguably better constructed/longer lasting than the new stuff.
    Last edited by Shayne; 02-10-2006 at 11:05 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shapirob
    Im frequently out of the loop, but from what I can tell Shimano is only offerring XTR rapid rise read derailleurs?

    ben
    The traditional type rear derailleurs have always remained and will remain available. Only the new rapid rise ones bring the new color and design which is were the confusion comes from but the older models were never discontinued.

  10. #10
    mechmann_mtb
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    i kind of like rapid rise RD. it did take some getting used to. on climbs that i didn't know there were times when i had to grab one gear lower and i found that in my delerium i often overshifted just slightly. this would cause me to jump partially to one gear higher than the next and then back down creating a lot of clanking and maybe a skip. rapid rise got rid of that. i do understand the issues that some have with mud, but it seems if the conditions are bad enough everyone but the SS'ers are gonna have something go bad. all the more reason to ride SS!!

  11. #11
    JmZ
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    Yup what Shayne said.

    I had a set of Suntour's of unknown vintage. It never wanted to really settle into any single gear. I was mixing Suntour thumbies, Shimano cassette, and XTR rear mech.

    I've been VERY happy with the Paul's thumbies. Happy enough to buy a second set, and to keep scouring for future sets.

    JmZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    Well, except mixing SRAM and non-SRAM.

    Suntour thumbshifters will work with M961 rear derailleurs, M95x, M900, ....Campy, Huret, Sachs, ... anything. The issue that arrises is that some (most?) Suntour shifters are not spaced properly for a Shimano cassette no matter what derailleur is used. There is really no way around this.
    That said, a lot of people have had sucess with it. Derailleurs with floating top pullies (most Shimano models and everything available today) can make up the difference in cog spacing most of the time. It will be hit or miss and also depends on how tolerant you are to slight shifting imperfections.

    The only way for it to work 100% is to make sure you have some of the last batch of XC-Pro shifters that were made for Shimano cassette spacing.

    As far as front derailleurs if you have to have a new one, see if you can try one at a shop or borrow a friends. I'd recommend picking up a M901 or XC-Pro. They'll be cheaper, lighter, and arguably better constructed/longer lasting than the new stuff.
    JmZ

    From one flat land to another.

    Advocate as if your ride depends on it...

  12. #12
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    Thanks for all of the reponses:

    As for why buy the newest xtr - I guess im caught up in buildling a dream bike (a Ibis Ripley/Castellano Fango - and possibly a silk ti in the future) with the latest and lightest, as long as price is within reason. My assumption was the quality and precision was evlolving right with the model numbers - perhaps thats not true - wait was I talking about shimano?

    Seriously though, I was actually searching for a long time for a Sachs quartz DiRT, or even a bullseye rear d. as those seem to be the best for Shimano style 1:2 from what I can tell, and the xtr's a notable second, but gaining in lightness. Overall would much rather have gone with a xram given what I have read, but I love suntour (and XT II in the distant past) thumbies too much. They just seem to work, be lightest, the most durable, and can be fixed or modified on the trail.

    I have this suspicion that thumbies were discontinued because they were thought of as more hazardous b/c people take there hands off the brake lever or even grip to shift - not solely for more advanced development or planned obsolescence. But I can one or two finger break during up and down-shifting and move through all rear gears with one slam as long as I am spinning (so satisfying!). All shifting is done with my knucle and thumb and its way easier and quicker than anything else I have tried. An there's nothing more obvious to tell what sprocket youre in than look at wher the lever's at. Ive never tried Gripshift and I imagine its close - the rest of the drivetrain sounds like its much superior, but i suspect I would like the shifting mechanism a bit less, but a close second.

    As for pauls thumbies - I wonder if they would still sit in just the right place and have just the right excursion to have that same close control. But thats where i would go next, although the xram drivetrain does sound like a better design. My suntours say 7/8 and I think are the last generation with the closest compatibility with Shimano - perhaps yours was earlier JmZ? I do think I will need to minimize the friction given the spring tension appears to be higher in my old withering xt derailleur- or perhaps that would be increase the cable friction??

    Im not sure I am ready to experiment with rapid rise and thumbies, unless somebody is really endorsings it. mechmann_mtb - did you use thumbies with rapid rise?

    One quick question - I am having a hard time figuring out which xtr 95? front derailleur comes in 34.9, top pull, bottom swing (and 31.8) - plus these seem hard to find. I am assuming this is a better choice than the 961 which seems to have a rightly tight spring - at least when I felt it and is a bit heavier. The FD is supposed to be mated to a fsa afterburner megaexo crankset - 22/32/44 (compact?) and yet to be purchased.

    This is assuming I would be best off with a bottom swing vs. top swing FD for an aluminum softtail - any thoughts on this one?

    thanks again for all the input

    b

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdad_martinez
    Yup shimano has now made your stuff even more obselete and soon not available so you'll have to upgrade. Thats thier M.O. Rapid Demise only on rear der. As for the front the new der. have nice big pivots for stiffness and durability. People wonder why I exclusively singlespeed. If I didn't my sh*t would be obselete now. Good luck and BTW I love Suntour XC-Pro stuff. Man that brings me back. Oh and 8 spd still rules....grumble, grumble..
    Ya know, i completely agree with you. I hate shimanos domination of the market and how they force new products upon us. You bring up a common misconception among bikers, though. Shimano does in fact support old products. Quality Bike Products (and many others) stocks non-retard rise XTR RD, 8 spd XTR cassettes, 8 spd shifters (though not XTR), 9 spd triple dura ace shifters, 9 spd downtube shifters, etc. The problem is, nobody advertises that not so cutting edge shimano stuff, so everybody thinks its gone.

    Sorry to respond with something completely unrelated to the topic.

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