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  1. #1
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    New question here. SRAM Eagle design flaw ?

    In May I bought a Trek Fuel EX 9.9 and it has never properly shifted since I rode it out of the shop. I've gone to 6 different bike shops and no one can figure it out (hanger alignment perfect and the the derailleur has been properly set up using the red plastic SRAM b-adjustment tool - under sag). Not every time, but maybe on 6 out of 10 shifts up to the 42t or 50t sprockets, the chain rides on TOP of the sprocket teeth instead of meshing with them :


    SRAM Eagle design flaw ?-image2.jpg

    SRAM Eagle design flaw ?-image1-1-.jpg

    I posted a thread about this on the Trek forums :

    2017 Trek Fuel EX 9.9 - TERRIBLE shifting

    Today the shop received a warranty cassette from SRAM but it still didn't solve the problem. so I bought a new chain and had an AHA moment when I installed it tonight.

    The two largest sprockets have narrow wide type tooth profiles and the chain will not wrap around the sprockets on alternating teeth (just like on the chain ring) Narrow wide makes sense for a single chain ring but how can this possibly work on a cassette ? How can you guarantee the chain will be properly synchronized with the correct tooth profile so that narrow wide teeth are properly aligned with the alternating sized gaps of male and female chain links on EVERY shift ? And if this is supposed to work what else in my drive-train could be causing this ?

    I'm not the only one experiencing this, the pinkbike Eagle review has the same problem - scroll down and look at the picture of the yeti - the chain is riding on top of the cassette teeth like mine.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-e...view-2016.html

    This could also explain some other strange thing that's happening, once in a while, the chain gets out of sync with the lower derailleur pulley (it's also narrow wide) and the chain rides on top of the pulley teeth until I forcefully advance the pulley by one tooth (my mechanic started noticing this on his eagle bike too).

    SRAM and all bikeshops so far have no explanation for what's happening.

    Any ideas ??

  2. #2
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    Perhaps your chain is too short


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    Methinks that the Eagle is really Icarus--the gods did not intend for any cassette to span a 500% range, or to cost so many dinar. Sram has fallen to earth.

  4. #4
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    never had any issues with x01 eagle
    2017 yeti sb6c turq x01 eagle

  5. #5
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    interesting post but if there was a design flaw rider complaints would be all over the place on the Internets yet it isn't

    I'll install GX Eagle next week and will report back should I run into the same issue

  6. #6
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    Check for binding in the shift cable/housing, housing slightly too short etc.

  7. #7
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    I have no issues with my X01 Eagle. I think your issue is you let lbs mechanics work on your bike.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    I have no issues with my X01 Eagle. I think your issue is you let lbs mechanics work on your bike.
    +1 on the above...I've seen a few defective part problem reported, but by reading around I would recommend trying to self tune. Eagle seems to works on a higher precision level and not all mechanics know the system. Learn the details of the tuning by doing a self tune. I'm not a mechanic myself, but I installed and tune an XX1 eagle on a 2015 Stumpy. I had a few issues that I solved by resetting the low and high limit screws, but then no issues at all, other than some retuning with the barrel every 3 or 4 trips.

    While reading your post my first thought was chain too as funnyjr suggested. Also take a look at the low limit screw and the make sure yourself that the b is well set.

    From what I remember, eagle drivetrain only has a narrow/wide pattern on the chainring and on one of the RD pulleys. On the cassette you have some special cut tooth that help the chain on the up/down shifting process but not an actual narrow/wide on every one.

    To help on understanding, take a look at this DIY
    Take a look at this thread

  9. #9
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    I've installed Eagle XO1 and XX1 on a few of my bikes without problems. Like others have said, check for binding. Also, check to make sure your shifter is pulling the cable smoothly (I saw a post about a defective Eagle shifter causing shifting problems somewhere on the interwebs).

  10. #10
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    The 42 and 50 on the eagle are narrow wide. your chain is off by 1 tooth. It will sometimes skip on the 42 and 50 if the shift ramps don't line it up right. once it's in the correct place all is good. That skip can suck if you have the power down.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    The 42 and 50 on the eagle are narrow wide. your chain is off by 1 tooth.
    I just unpacked the GX Eagle groupset and the two biggest cogs are indeed narrow wide! The chain doesn't fit on the cassette if it is "out of sync" and looks the same like the picture above!

    I didn't install it yet but how's that supposed to work out? Do I have to make sure the chain is in sync every time I reinstall the rear wheel?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Calf View Post
    I just unpacked the GX Eagle groupset and the two biggest cogs are indeed narrow wide! The chain doesn't fit on the cassette if it is "out of sync" and looks the same like the picture above!

    I didn't install it yet but how's that supposed to work out? Do I have to make sure the chain is in sync every time I reinstall the rear wheel?
    Really? that's a surprise...can you post a picture? are u sure is on the whole cog? I found this one on google and i don't see a clear wide-narrow pattern as in the chainring...
    Cassette
    SRAM Eagle design flaw ?-sram-xx1-eagle-12speed-cassette-details02.jpg

    Chainring
    SRAM Eagle design flaw ?-chainring.jpg

  13. #13
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    i'll double check my x01 eagle cassette in a few hours. i dont remember them being narrow/wide design. 50t might have special teeth, maybe to assist in easier shifting, but not necessarily require special timing or alignment with the chain.

    i haven't looked at the x01 eagle chain in awhile, but i dont remember it ever saying anything about aligning the chain or narrow/wide cassette. i watched a few youtube videos about eagle and none of the installers mention it either.

    as far as i've seen/known/read, only the chainring and lower pulley have narrow/wide teeth profiles. the upper pulley is normal. i thought the cassette was normal too.

    i thought the eagle cassette was just a standard 42-10t cassette with a 50t added on.
    2017 yeti sb6c turq x01 eagle

  14. #14
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    All pictures show the cassette being equal width teeth, but they have different lengths (if length is the right way to describe it). Since chains have equal roller spacing, I wouldn't expect it to matter which tooth is in which gap in the chain, so I'm curious to hear about how this has happened to a few people.

  15. #15
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    yeah im also curious how this is happening. i've been on x01 eagle for about 8 months so definitely not a pro, but i've swapped chains, removed, and installed chains multiple times on my bike and never had this issue.

    would the b-tension screw have anything to do with this?

    those with issues, have you checked your b-tension screw?
    2017 yeti sb6c turq x01 eagle

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Calf View Post
    I just unpacked the GX Eagle groupset and the two biggest cogs are indeed narrow wide! The chain doesn't fit on the cassette if it is "out of sync" and looks the same like the picture above!

    I didn't install it yet but how's that supposed to work out? Do I have to make sure the chain is in sync every time I reinstall the rear wheel?
    The shift ramps guide it onto the big cogs in sync. This happens 90% of the time. If it's out of sync it will jump 1 tooth and be in sync again. The N/W is for backpedal performance, so I doesn't jump off the 50/42.

  17. #17
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    even with narrow wide profile the chain should jump cogs once aligned, worst case it skips a single tooth, it's really weird that it's jumping on top of the teeth, seems like the RD / shift are not setup correctlymaybe the rd is pushing the chain too much

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    The shift ramps guide it onto the big cogs in sync. This happens 90% of the time. If it's out of sync it will jump 1 tooth and be in sync again. The N/W is for backpedal performance, so I doesn't jump off the 50/42.
    that's some good background info you've got but if it works in 90% of the time does that mean at every 10th shift the chain will be out of sync?

    I'll post pictures tomorrow before installation of the whole thing but the chain doesn't fit on the cassette if it's out of sync I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't seen it in hand

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Calf View Post
    that's some good background info you've got but if it works in 90% of the time does that mean at every 10th shift the chain will be out of sync?

    I'll post pictures tomorrow before installation of the whole thing but the chain doesn't fit on the cassette if it's out of sync I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't seen it in hand
    Unfortunately, yes it misses and jumps about every 10-20 shifts. I just soft pedal that shift and wait for a second to put the power down.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    The shift ramps guide it onto the big cogs in sync. This happens 90% of the time. If it's out of sync it will jump 1 tooth and be in sync again. The N/W is for backpedal performance, so I doesn't jump off the 50/42.
    +1

    This is exactly what's happening and probably explains why comments elsewhere describe a certain loudness or clunkiness when shifting into the lowest gears. SRAM confirmed to the shop that the chain can on occasion ride on top of the teeth but only on a bike stand. What I've noticed is that this happens also on the trail, the only difference is that when load is applied after shifting the chain skips and snaps/clanks while synching back into place. This is exacerbated when the b-screw isn't properly adjusted and why SRAM has a special tool to align it, but even when it is the problem can never truly be eliminated. Whether or not this is a design flaw can be debated, but it's certainly a compromised solution to prevent the chain from dropping when backpedaling.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    even with narrow wide profile the chain should jump cogs once aligned, worst case it skips a single tooth, it's really weird that it's jumping on top of the teeth, seems like the RD / shift are not setup correctlymaybe the rd is pushing the chain too much
    It actually makes sense, because the cassette is N/W the chain can't seat into alternate positions on the cassette because of the tooth profile (just like on a NW chainring) so the chain sits on top. But what's really perverse is that once you apply torque on the crank, the whole chain slips over all the cassette teeth by 1 tooth to re-synchronize itself. This is the klank you often hear when shifting into 42/50. This CANNOT be good on the drivetrain and probably explains how PeteyPhil snapped a tooth off his 50t sprocket :

    Sram Eagle 1x12 - Page 5- Mtbr.com

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    And another :

    XX1 eagle 50th broken- Mtbr.com

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    Last edited by ElPablo; 08-11-2017 at 09:40 PM.

  22. #22
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    i had the same issue, but took a look at the cassette, saw the narrow wide on the 50t and changed the chain 1 tooth, problem solved
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramount3 View Post
    Methinks that the Eagle is really Icarus--the gods did not intend for any cassette to span a 500% range, or to cost so many dinar. Sram has fallen to earth.
    Thank you for this.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaterra View Post
    i had the same issue, but took a look at the cassette, saw the narrow wide on the 50t and changed the chain 1 tooth, problem solved
    How does that solve the problem ?

  25. #25
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    Hoping to add some facts to the discussion, I worked today for about an hour with my XX1 eagle and I can now confirm that>

    - The 11th and 12th do not have a narrow wide pattern as the chainring. Though every cog has some different shaped teeth that help the chain in the shifting process. In particular the 50T cog also has special shape (link shaped) cuts on the side to help going up from 42T.

    - Did about 20 to 30 random, slow and fast, up and down shifting tests and observed the chain does always sits on the same inner outer link pattern relative to a certain tooth on the 50T cog. To test this I made a mark in between two teeth on the cog and observed that the pattern always repeated. This means that on the tooth left to the mark I will always observe an outer/wide link and on the right an inner/narrow link (picture below).

    - The above makes sense because by slowly pedaling while shifting from 11th and 12th you can see that the chain always goes up using the cog's side cuts to hook a wide/outer link thus the pattern is always the same.

    - Never on these test I had a miss link or a skip jump as reported. Also never had an over the cog chain.

    - Son IMHO, I don't think there is a design problem or anything like that. As someone mentioned, there are far more happy users than problems reported. From what I've read around, you need to concentrate first on checking any mechanical problem like a misalignment due to a bend hanger or mechanical problems on the shifter or Rear Derailleur. Some guys have reported changes in shifter under warranty to solve the problem.

    - If there are no mechanical problems, you have to make sure the chain length is correct and you correctly set the b screw and high low limit screws and finally is just a matter of tuning the cable tension. To be fair though, I do have to report that whenever the systems gets a bit misadjusted you get a big mess on your pedals, but also it can be solved just with a few turns on the barrell.

    Quote video> If shifting from a large cog to smaller cog is slow, turn barrel adjuster clockwise. If shifting from a small cog to a larger cog is slow, turn barrel adjuster counter clockwise.

    Final Tip> Resting bike on the small cog allows for longer duration of the cable and the RD spring.

    SRAM Eagle design flaw ?-fotobici.jpg

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipots View Post
    Hoping to add some facts to the discussion, I worked today for about an hour with my XX1 eagle and I can now confirm that>

    - The 11th and 12th do not have a narrow wide pattern as the chainring. Though every cog has some different shaped teeth that help the chain in the shifting process. In particular the 50T cog also has special shape (link shaped) cuts on the side to help going up from 42T.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The 2 largest cogs have a narrow wide type profile, it's quite obvious when you look at the tooth profile from the back of the cassette. It's more complicated than basic narrow wide, there are sections of multiple (3?) narrow teeth in a row, but narrow wide enough that the chain can only be engaged on alternate teeth - I think a few other users have shown that. Whatever we want to call it, the chain still has to be properly synchronized to shift properly. You can try it yourself, lock the rear derailleur to release tension and lift the chain up and advance it by one tooth to see what happens.

    Thanks for taking the time to test your own setup. Which gears did you try ? I found it's easily reproduced on the stand by shifting between 2nd and 3rd gear repeatedly.

    It's possible yours works as designed. But I'm not the only one experiencing this. 3 different mechanics have seen this happen on occasion (but didn't think anything of it at the time). And yesterday at a local bike shop we took another Eagle equipped bike from the floor on the stand and were able to reproduce it easily. After several phone calls with SRAM they told the mechanic that the chain can occasionally ride on top of the sprockets - but that it doesn't happen when riding. My experience is that it actually DOES but only for a brief moment, before the torque on the crank violently drags the chain across the sprocket by 1 tooth to re-synchronize itself (this is the big clunk you occasionally hear when shifting into those 2 gears).

    Whether it's a design flaw or not is debatable, and it could be a problem with the shifter or possibly the derailleur clutch. But requiring the chain to be synchronized when shifting to 1st and 2nd gears when so many factors can prevent that from happening is asking for trouble.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPablo View Post
    The 2 largest cogs have a narrow wide type profile, it's quite obvious when you look at the tooth profile from the back of the cassette. It's more complicated than basic narrow wide, there are sections of multiple (3?) narrow teeth in a row, but narrow wide enough that the chain can only be engaged on alternate teeth - I think a few other users have shown that. Whatever we want to call it, the chain still has to be properly synchronized to shift properly. You can try it yourself, lock the rear derailleur to release tension and lift the chain up and advance it by one tooth to see what happens.
    Yes you right there is a pattern, just wanted to clarify that is not the same as a n/w pattern on the chainring. That sections of "about 3" different size teeth are located near the "cuts" on the side of the 50T cog to help upshifting process. Surprisingly in my tests, all the times the chain got up correctly on the 50T cog using the "cuts" and on the the same n/w pattern (synchronized). From what I observed, that is possible because the cuts will always "grab" an outer link, so chain will enter the cog in the same places keeping the n/w pattern.
    So the point is that in my case there are no "factors to prevent that" and if this is not a worldwide problem, is the way it's meant to work and there must be something particular going on in some cases.

    So, to dig deeper on possible solution. We need to find out why in some cases the chain is going up desynchronized or on a different pattern, thus skipping one teeth.
    Can you do do some tests and check these questions>
    - How the chain is going up on the 50T cog using the cuts. Always on an outer link?
    - Does the problem only happens on shifting up from 10th to 11th or 1th to 12th or also going down?
    - Can you reproduce the shifting process slowly trying to check exactly what is happening on chain/cog contact on the 11th and 12 cog and if possible take a picture?

    I'm going to do some testing myself and work particularly on the 3rd and 2nd shifting you reported (11th and 10th large cogs). I will also check if the w/n pattern is respected on the 11th cog.

    I'm going to try and reproduce the "lift the chain up and advance it by one tooth", but again, this is not meant to happen as the chain, at least in the 50T cog, always goes up in the same n/w pattern.

    Just to be sure, I forgot to tell that I did my test on a stand and we are talking about a 100% eagle setup no other vendor chains or chainrings.

  28. #28
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    Another possible contributing factor to this is problem is chainstay length. The shorter chainstay length the more drastic of chainline angle. In saying that Q factor obviously plays a role. What is the recommended chain line for eagle? I don't know but perhaps try playing around w decreasing the Q factor if possible to see if makes a difference.


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  29. #29
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    I did a 12 mile loop yesterday and had 2 out of sync shifts out of around 40 total shifts. Re-synced without a problem as I was not hammering threw the shift.

  30. #30
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    The quick link is also directional, so make sure it isn't upside down. Not sure if this would result in your problem, but it's a thought.

  31. #31
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    Design Flaw or not SRAM eagle needs some tweaks.....and a second generation.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Design Flaw or not SRAM eagle needs some tweaks.....and a second generation.
    That's it in a nutshell.

    At this pricepoint, this flaw takes me back to the days of their Avid brakes.
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  33. #33
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    I don't have Eagle but I notice OPs pics have the Sram side of the links out, and pipots pics have links that say Eagle facing out. Are the chains directional?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    That's it in a nutshell.

    At this pricepoint, this flaw takes me back to the days of their Avid brakes.
    That day is still today, just change the name from Avid to Guide.
    I would advise not taking my advice.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipots View Post

    So, to dig deeper on possible solution. We need to find out why in some cases the chain is going up desynchronized or on a different pattern, thus skipping one teeth.
    Can you do do some tests and check these questions>
    - How the chain is going up on the 50T cog using the cuts. Always on an outer link?
    - Does the problem only happens on shifting up from 10th to 11th or 1th to 12th or also going down?
    - Can you reproduce the shifting process slowly trying to check exactly what is happening on chain/cog contact on the 11th and 12 cog and if possible take a picture?

    Just to be sure, I forgot to tell that I did my test on a stand and we are talking about a 100% eagle setup no other vendor chains or chainrings.
    I'm out of town for a few days but I'll put the bike on the stand over the weekend. Everything is stock, I bought the bike new from Trek.


    Quote Originally Posted by funnyjr View Post
    Another possible contributing factor to this is problem is chainstay length. The shorter chainstay length the more drastic of chainline angle. In saying that Q factor obviously plays a role. What is the recommended chain line for eagle? I don't know but perhaps try playing around w decreasing the Q factor if possible to see if makes a difference.
    The chainline is "drastic" but that's just part of Eagle. The bike is stock from Trek and I don't think anything can be done to change the Q-factor.


    Quote Originally Posted by jaydoc View Post
    The quick link is also directional, so make sure it isn't upside down. Not sure if this would result in your problem, but it's a thought.
    The link is directional and properly installed, chain if fine too (it's not directional)

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPablo View Post
    SRAM they told the mechanic that the chain can occasionally ride on top of the sprockets

    My experience is that it actually DOES but only for a brief moment, before the torque on the crank violently drags the chain across the sprocket by 1 tooth to re-synchronize itself (this is the big clunk you occasionally hear when shifting into those 2 gears).
    same here!
    I noticed it to happen a few times during my first ride, it feels a bit like as if the chain was falling down onto the smaller 42T when in fact it stays on the 50T the whole time and just "synchronises"

    Chain length and upper pulley clearance is set according to SRAM installation guidelines, I find it hard to believe the shifter is at fault, it's clearly the cassette design with that narrow wide profile teeth that requires the chain to be in sync

    Theoretically an incorrect set b-screw could be the culprit here as a wrong distance from the upper guidance pulley to the 50T cog would initially force the chain into an unsynchronized state right after the shift. Maybe that's the reason why SRAM introduced that red plastic thing because a correct setup is more important than ever

  37. #37
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    Chain growth of rear sus bikes seems to be a real fire to this flame.

    First, yes, I'm spoiled. OK.

    Two weeks ago, I got a new Fuel EX 9.9 with Eagle, and I have what I'll call the "Eagle 1-2 Skip".

    Yesterday, I got a new Procaliber 9.9 with Eagle, and took it out for a two hour ride today WITHOUT A SINGLE SKIP.

    Huh?!
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  38. #38
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    A quick update...

    The shop said their 2 other Eagle Treks shifted fine and to bring mine back in. They changed the complete drive train, and Trek sent them a new rear chainstay. Problem still not solved.

    So I pushed a little and asked to see the Eagle equipped Farley, they put it on the stand, and on the third shift, chain de-synchronized and rides on top of the cassette.

    More calls to Canadian SRAM distributor, change of story "oh yeah, we've seen this a lot, SRAM has been sending customers new cassettes...". Trek hints that SRAM is aware of the problem and working on a new cassette design.

    So it sounds like once again SRAM is using customers to beta test their products.

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    After a lot of troubleshooting I think I figured out what's really happening.

    When you downshift slowly, the cassette profile/ramp properly lifts the chain at the right moment and synchronizes the chain. But on quicker shifts, or direct shifts from 3-1, it's not the ramps lifting the chain but the friction from the pressure of the chain against the sprocket, so synchronization is basically hit or miss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPablo View Post
    After a lot of troubleshooting I think I figured out what's really happening.


    When you downshift slowly, the cassette profile/ramp properly lifts the chain at the right moment and synchronizes the chain. But on quicker shifts, or direct shifts from 3-1, it's not the ramps lifting the chain but the friction from the pressure of the chain against the sprocket, so synchronization is basically hit or miss.
    Well... that's annoying.

    Anyone know the reason why they designed Eagle to have variable tooth spacing?

    I guess I dodged a bullet when I bought a 2017 SC Hightower rather than a 2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPablo View Post
    A quick update...

    The shop said their 2 other Eagle Treks shifted fine and to bring mine back in. They changed the complete drive train, and Trek sent them a new rear chainstay. Problem still not solved.

    So I pushed a little and asked to see the Eagle equipped Farley, they put it on the stand, and on the third shift, chain de-synchronized and rides on top of the cassette.

    More calls to Canadian SRAM distributor, change of story "oh yeah, we've seen this a lot, SRAM has been sending customers new cassettes...". Trek hints that SRAM is aware of the problem and working on a new cassette design.

    So it sounds like once again SRAM is using customers to beta test their products.
    Good news! Funny, though, because SRAM USA replaced both of my RDs, but not the cassette. I was skeptical, but both shift perfectly, now.

    There is clearly a bunch of small tweaking going on with the Eagle design, which is good, because I'm sure loving the range it provides!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Well... that's annoying.

    Anyone know the reason why they designed Eagle to have variable tooth spacing?

    I guess I dodged a bullet when I bought a 2017 SC Hightower rather than a 2018.
    The narrow wide is so the chain doesn't derail when you backpedal. It solves one problem and causes another. It's the price you pay for having a very wide cassette.
    It's not a design flaw as it was intentional and they picked the lesser of two evils.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramount3 View Post
    Methinks that the Eagle is really Icarus--the gods did not intend for any cassette to span a 500% range, or to cost so many dinar. Sram has fallen to earth.
    Not to mention how silly it is to have a 42 to 50 gap .... or 12 speed for that matter

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    42 to 50 is 19%
    the 12 to 10 is 20%. The rest of the jumps are reasonable.

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    This is what happens when one of their "brake guys" gets transferred to a different department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    This is what happens when one of their "brake guys" gets transferred to a different department.
    It's "German Engineered".



    It all makes sense now. Create a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, then create a new problem.

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    I just talked with the Sram guys and let them check my Eagle setup, if chain length is correct b-screw adjustment is the culprit here as it determines if the chain is forced in a snyced/unsynced position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    It's "German Engineered"...
    As was the Shamwow.
    Do the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    This is what happens when one of their "brake guys" gets transferred to a different department.
    Hey....lighten up on the SRAM brake guys.
    They have only been making brakes for 20+ year.....they will eventually figure it out.
    PS....your post made me spit coffee on my keyboard! FTW!

  50. #50
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    I have two Eagle setups, X01 on a HT, and XX1 on a FS. The X01 on the HT always has had this problem, even breaking a tooth off th 50 t cog.

    The FS started great, but has gotten harder and harder to setup to avoid this problem as it has aged.

    My 11 sp X1 setup on my other hardtail has been perfect...

  51. #51
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    Pretty obvious from the pic. Poor chainwrap. So either the chain is out of tolerance or the cogs are.

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    The more chain wrap there is, the tighter the tolerance must be
    Last edited by Fisty; 09-27-2017 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisty View Post
    Pretty obvious from the pic. Poor chainwrap. So either the chain is out of tolerance or the cogs are.
    No, the chain only meshes/synchronizes on alternating teeth; some of the teeth on the 42 and 50t sprockets are "wide".

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    Thought you guys would appreciate this. My eagle gx on my stache was having issues during a race. Cleaned the mud off when I got home and found this. Notice the missing teeth? Less than 10 hours on the bike..

    To be fair the shop that last worked on it didn't tighten the shifter cable so it kept backing out and jumping while riding. I didn't know the root cause and should have stopped riding instead of pushing through. Doesn't speak well to durability though

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    Quote Originally Posted by phalkon30 View Post
    Thought you guys would appreciate this. My eagle gx on my stache was having issues during a race. Cleaned the mud off when I got home and found this. Notice the missing teeth? Less than 10 hours on the bike..

    To be fair the shop that last worked on it didn't tighten the shifter cable so it kept backing out and jumping while riding. I didn't know the root cause and should have stopped riding instead of pushing through. Doesn't speak well to durability though
    This can happen to any cassette if the derailleur is poorly adjusted. I have seen multiple shimano and sram cassettes missing teeth because the rider kept going even though they "heard a weird noise". Source: I'm a mechanic.
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    First rides on my new XO1 Eagle this weekend at a 24 Hour race. Interesting that I am reading this now but I believe mine did this as well everyone once in a while. Like a small skip while it re-sync'd with the cassette when in the larger cogs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by briantortilla View Post
    This can happen to any cassette if the derailleur is poorly adjusted. I have seen multiple shimano and sram cassettes missing teeth because the rider kept going even though they "heard a weird noise". Source: I'm a mechanic.
    That's why I find cassette teeth on the trail all the time, right?

    You have gone too far enough, congrats.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by briantortilla View Post
    This can happen to any cassette if the derailleur is poorly adjusted.
    Not sure if we mean the same but this happens when the rider applies full chain torque during a gear shift (the short moment the chain is on two cogs), a huge problem on ebikes these days.

    Hence Sram went to 1x8 with their EX1 group and disabled the multi gear release in the shifter

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Calf View Post
    Not sure if we mean the same but this happens when the rider applies full chain torque during a gear shift (the short moment the chain is on two cogs), a huge problem on ebikes these days.

    Hence Sram went to 1x8 with their EX1 group and disabled the multi gear release in the shifter
    I run my e-bike singlespeed. makes it moderately challenging that way.

  60. #60
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    Interesting. More testing on this issue on my new ride. In the stand, it happens occasionally in the 42 and 50. You have to give it a hard jerk to get it to slip back into sync. I have ordered the red plastic b guide to check this setting as I didn't get it from the shop when I bought my bike. Everything else seems adjusted properly.
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  61. #61
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    Check to see where The quick link is when it does this. Chances are you will find it entering the cassette cog. Snapped one gx derailleur in two. After that snapped chain right near the quick link due to the link unlocking and causing the chain to bind and break. Running without a quick link and since has resolved all the issues.

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    So SRAM released an innovative product before making sure it was reliable? You don't say....

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    ^^^I don't think this constitutes "reliable" or "not reliable", it's just a quirk. The big thing with these issues is to understand the why. Did Sram design this intentionally? Do they know about it? Are they concerned? Is it a problem? Not sure, only Sram can answer and internet speculation doesn't solve it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisty View Post
    . Running without a quick link and since has resolved all the issues.
    How'd you join the chain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    How'd you join the chain?
    I'm assuming he pressed a pin out, then back in to join the chain. This worked well enough on older chains 8 speed and below, but every time I attempted this on newer 9+ speed chains, the chain always breaks. Once pressed out, the pin will no longer be held with the same strength.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    Did Sram design this intentionally?
    Do they know about it?
    Is it a problem?
    Yes Sram designed it intentionally to prevent backpedal problems
    Yes the do.
    Can be if you are shifting under high load.
    I find that it is an acceptable compromise for the super wide range. I wish it didn't happened, but understand that it's better than the alternative.
    Skipping has nothing to do with the quick link and you absolutely can NOT press a pin back into an eagle chain.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  67. #67
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    ^^^Makes sense. I agree that this has nothing to do with the power link - I have watched mine do this a bunch in the stand and it is never at the same place/at the link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPablo View Post
    In May I bought a Trek Fuel EX 9.9 and it has never properly shifted since I rode it out of the shop. I've gone to 6 different bike shops and no one can figure it out (hanger alignment perfect and the the derailleur has been properly set up using the red plastic SRAM b-adjustment tool - under sag). Not every time, but maybe on 6 out of 10 shifts up to the 42t or 50t sprockets, the chain rides on TOP of the sprocket teeth instead of meshing with them :


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    I posted a thread about this on the Trek forums :

    2017 Trek Fuel EX 9.9 - TERRIBLE shifting

    Today the shop received a warranty cassette from SRAM but it still didn't solve the problem. so I bought a new chain and had an AHA moment when I installed it tonight.

    The two largest sprockets have narrow wide type tooth profiles and the chain will not wrap around the sprockets on alternating teeth (just like on the chain ring) Narrow wide makes sense for a single chain ring but how can this possibly work on a cassette ? How can you guarantee the chain will be properly synchronized with the correct tooth profile so that narrow wide teeth are properly aligned with the alternating sized gaps of male and female chain links on EVERY shift ? And if this is supposed to work what else in my drive-train could be causing this ?

    I'm not the only one experiencing this, the pinkbike Eagle review has the same problem - scroll down and look at the picture of the yeti - the chain is riding on top of the cassette teeth like mine.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-e...view-2016.html

    This could also explain some other strange thing that's happening, once in a while, the chain gets out of sync with the lower derailleur pulley (it's also narrow wide) and the chain rides on top of the pulley teeth until I forcefully advance the pulley by one tooth (my mechanic started noticing this on his eagle bike too).

    SRAM and all bikeshops so far have no explanation for what's happening.

    Any ideas ??
    It's probably missing the chain hook because of all that crap you have covering the cassette sprockets. Is that grease?

  69. #69
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    ^^^Mine is brand new/spotless and does this same thing.
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    ^^ It's the b-screw adjustment.

    That's why Sram is issuing that red template, if you miss the correct setup just by a small margin the above behaviour will occur. How do I know? I can easily provoke it by changing the b-screw in either direction, a full turn already amplifies that "chain hoovering effect"

    maybe some guys here should do more trial & error

    you won't solve the issue by writing about it!

  71. #71
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    "just a quirk" - uhm no. Sram had issues from the getgo with chain and what not.

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    I will check actual chain wrap in the next few days or someone else can. Just take a fresh chain and wrap it all the way around the 2 largest cogs with the wheel off the bike. Check it with the quick link on it as well. I worked manufacturing chain and sprockets for some years. Does it wrap without issue?

  73. #73
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    Got the b screw guide. It was clue and I tweaked it a touch. Removed 1 link per Sram's video on installing Eagle. Neither eliminated it.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisty View Post
    I will check actual chain wrap in the next few days or someone else can. Just take a fresh chain and wrap it all the way around the 2 largest cogs with the wheel off the bike. Check it with the quick link on it as well. I worked manufacturing chain and sprockets for some years. Does it wrap without issue?
    Chain wrap is fine. Still no issues since running without the quick link.

  75. #75
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    So, to follow up :

    SRAM replaced cassette derailleur and chain, and new cable and housing. New derailleur hanger and perfectly aligned, b adjustment tool used to set the derailleur... and...

    It still shifts like crap in the two lowest gears.

    So for anyone on the fence upgrading to Eagle - DONíT !

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    It is amazing that this thread has gotten this long. I wish I could find the SRAM video that explains the so called issue that eagle has. SRAM internationally designed the largest two cogs with a narrow wide profile. They did this in order to remedy the back pedal issue that so many people complained about. If the chain shifts out of sync on these two cogs, the chain is designed to skip forward while under load. Emphasis on under load. This is a design feature, not a design flaw, built in to prevent the back pedal issue of their 11 speed system.

    To be clear, I am not saying that this is the ideal way to design a cassette. I agree that it is not necessarily ideal. However, to all of the people complaining about their shifting, the system is designed to work this way. My eagle drivetrain shifts out of sync in the stand all the time. But in 5 months of riding every other day, it has only skipped once or twice while I was actually on the bike, and it was not a big deal. There was just a large clunk, and I went on my way.

    As a final note, eagle is not the easiest to set up. One of our most experienced shop mechanics has even had trouble with it. Hangar alignment is key, and any bendy (read cable binding) cable routing can also significantly affect shift quality.
    Somersaults... that's how I roll.

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    ^^^Let me say that my Eagle has shifted perfectly from Day 1. I get the clunk from time to time but it's not a big deal to me. What I was looking for was whether this was ok or not - if Sram has this is the design (like it or not), then I'm good with it. I just wanted to make sure that I had followed their install which it looks like I have. I'm not sure I believe those that got rid of this (this = chain riding on top of cogs and slipping into sync) with the various methods they are saying...I just think it's how it is. I would like to see the Sram video on this as well!
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    If this is by design, which seems likely, why is SRAM continuing to replace all my parts under warranty ?? And why is no shop mechanic besides you aware of this ?

    Iíd really like to see that video as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPablo View Post
    If this is by design, which seems likely, why is SRAM continuing to replace all my parts under warranty ?? And why is no shop mechanic besides you aware of this ?

    Iíd really like to see that video as well.
    So Sram is replacing your Eagle bits b/c the chain rides on the cog sometimes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    So Sram is replacing your Eagle bits b/c the chain rides on the cog sometimes?
    Yes...

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    Has anyone had their stuff replaced and it sorted the problem 100%?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisty View Post
    Chain wrap is fine. Still no issues since running without the quick link.
    Since you didn't answer, you must have re-used a pin. I'll say a prayer for your testes.

    I'm not comfortable with people suggesting this. I made the mistake back in 09 and the chain breakage resulted in me tumbling down a rocky ledge and being off the bike a month. When you press a 9, 10, 11 or 12 spd pin out the flared end is torn off and will be found around the pin on your chain tool.

  83. #83
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    I have done this on a 11 speed and yes, it broke. There is a reason they give you a special pin or master link. On 7 and 8 speed stuff in the '90s it was fine to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPablo View Post
    If this is by design, which seems likely, why is SRAM continuing to replace all my parts under warranty ?? And why is no shop mechanic besides you aware of this ?

    Iíd really like to see that video as well.
    For the life of me I cannot find the video. I know 100% that it did exist at some point. It may have been a product launch video at eurobike or something of that sort but it seems to be gone now. My knowledge of the design is purely based on that video.

    As for why SRAM is replacing parts, I am not sure. It may just be because they have a very good warranty program. They will take basically anything from our shop no questions asked and send a replacement. From what I have read, however, most replacements have made no difference in out of sync shifts, so there is probably no point in sending in your group set. Your guess is as good as mine on this one. I do not claim to be the authority on the subject, just sharing what I know. Ill do my best to find that damn video.
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    ^^^Good info. Was it a video that actually showed this phenomenonn?
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    I recently picked up a Santa Cruz Nomad with X01 Eagle. So far I have two rides on it (this past Sat/Sun).

    I had it up on the stand last night and sure enough, it does the same thing.

    The problem seems to fix itself in actual riding conditions. The problem is more apparent in the stand when the rear wheel spins freely.

  87. #87
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    ^^^Same experience here. I get a little noise or clunk when it does it riding sometimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    ^^^Good info. Was it a video that actually showed this phenomenonn?
    I cant remember if the video actually showed the phenomenon or if it was simply addressed verbally. I think I saw the video just after the initial release of eagle so it has been a while.
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    Was it an official Sram video? Other videos show it.
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    It was either an official SRAM video or an interview with a SRAM rep from another youtube channel. Either way, it was from the mouth of SRAM.
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    Iíve just looked at mine on both big rings and the chain fits all the way round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeti rider View Post
    Iíve just looked at mine on both big rings and the chain fits all the way round.
    That's because the chain is currently synced to the narrow-wide cog.

    Shift back and forth a few times and eventually it'll get out of sync.

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    Or, just take the chain and manually advance it one cog, it won't seat anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    That's because the chain is currently synced to the narrow-wide cog.

    Shift back and forth a few times and eventually it'll get out of sync.
    Iím going is disagree.
    Put it in the bike stand, single shifts, multiple shifts throughout the whole range and it syncs on every change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeti rider View Post
    Iím going is disagree.
    Put it in the bike stand, single shifts, multiple shifts throughout the whole range and it syncs on every change.
    Interesting.

    Can you confirm that your big cog is narrow-wide?

    If so, the big question is how is it staying in sync? Can you snap some photos?

  96. #96
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    The cassette has a profile that only allows the chain to sit in one position (not really "narrow/wide", but profiled for sure). This is not a debatable topic.
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    SRAM Eagle design flaw ?-normal.jpg

    Normal alignment
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails SRAM Eagle design flaw ?-one_tooth.jpg  


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    SRAM Eagle design flaw ?-one_tooth.jpg

    Moved forward one tooth, had a slight gap but fully covered the cog as I slowly moved the crank forward

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    Yetirider. The Eagle cassettes have abbreviated narrow wide 42 and 50 sprockets. You can NOT put any power threw them if they are out of sync as they are designed to jump into the correct orientation. This is well documented. The NW is most prevalent around the shift points and can sit mostly flush on a small portion of the top 2 gears.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  100. #100
    mtbr member
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    Sorry Iím not a gearing expert, Iím just indicating I canít see that on my bike, living in the Peak District most rides have steep climbs and the setup works perfectly for me.

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