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  1. #1
    nimble biker
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    Rumor of new XTR 12 speed?

    Is there any rumor of new XTR 12 speed next year?

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  2. #2
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    I'm more curious about Saint. Has it been five years yet?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notched View Post
    I'm more curious about Saint. Has it been five years yet?
    This. Zee, in my case.

  4. #4
    make mine a nine
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    You think they're holding back to play catch up? They didn't take that long to move to 11speed. My money is on 13 speed.


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  5. #5
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    Why stop at 12?

    Rumor of new XTR 12 speed?-screen-shot-2017-08-10-10.44.56-pm.jpg

  6. #6
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    I would at least like to see a lighter 11-46 cassette, for now. I could see this happening for next year, with an all-new XTR in 2019.

  7. #7
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    ALLL THE SPEEDS

    Sorry, just seems nuts.

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  8. #8
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    shimano needs to work on getting the weight down on their components, I can't even imagine how heavy a XT 12 speed cassette would be!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    shimano needs to work on getting the weight down on their components, I can't even imagine how heavy a XT 12 speed cassette would be!
    What they really need to do is refine their 1x systems. I used to be a die hard Shimano user until I went 1x. My X0 Eagle is so much smoother and quieter than my 1x11 XTR. Shimano front shifting has always been light years ahead of SRAM, but for 1x systems (which seems to be the future standard) SRAM is killing Shimano.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    What they really need to do is refine their 1x systems. I used to be a die hard Shimano user until I went 1x. My X0 Eagle is so much smoother and quieter than my 1x11 XTR. Shimano front shifting has always been light years ahead of SRAM, but for 1x systems (which seems to be the future standard) SRAM is killing Shimano.
    I think they need to do both. I have XT M8000 but have spent extensive time on SRAM 11 and 12 speeds. The nice thing with the XT is that it just works. No need to tinker with anything, set up is easy, and once it is set up it requires minimal maintenance. That being said, SRAM has it beat everywhere else, especially with their new Eagle. It is lighter, smoother, and quieter. XT and even XTR are so much heavier it is ridiculous

  11. #11
    Anytime. Anywhere.
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    Shimano is far behind, and loosing ground rapidly.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by abevern View Post
    You think they're holding back to play catch up? They didn't take that long to move to 11speed. My money is on 13 speed.

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    Well if they go 13-speed, they are going to need to do something about the freehub. If 11t is the smallest cog, the biggest would need to be huge to get the range that would justify 13 speeds.

    They could just adopt the XD standard, but that would be admitting defeat.

  13. #13
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    Not really, heavier complaint is a "wth" moment (its 30 grams give or take a few) Sram isnt competing on overall cost and requires proprietary hubs. Their lower line stuff is well heavier than shimano equivilant (price)

    Cassette weight means almost nothing. No one ever noticed 30 grams of cassette weight.

    Sram may be "better" for top tier for 1x but thats where it ends. I have sram gx and shimano xt. No performance difference. Like shimano dual shifting better though. And XT was more cost effective.

    What is funny is that bike innovation has gone backwards in this case. 1x has never been an upgrade, single chainring has been around a lot longer than gears. It has its perks but why all the "omg this the greatest thing since sliced bread" talk.

    So i dont think shimano is loosing a single ounce of ground overall to sram. And both companies are laughing their way to the bank cause the premiums their being paid to make products that cost less to manufacture than before. Im guilty of it too but I was riding 1x before it became the latest and greatest.

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  14. #14
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    I like my Sram X1, but when it's time to put on a cassette - I'm replacing entire drivetrain with 2x Di2 instead.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Not really, heavier complaint is a "wth" moment (its 30 grams give or take a few) Sram isnt competing on overall cost and requires proprietary hubs. Their lower line stuff is well heavier than shimano equivilant (price)


    My shimano 11-42 cassette tips the scales at 435g

    My Sram 10-42 cassettes tip the scales at 263g and 265g.

    The shomano stuff is great budget option. But the XD driver standard is a far superior mounting interface (smaller 10T driver, plus no scored hub shells)

    Yes, the sram stuff is way more $$$. But ya know what, I cant take it with me in the end!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Not really, heavier complaint is a "wth" moment (its 30 grams give or take a few) Sram isnt competing on overall cost and requires proprietary hubs. Their lower line stuff is well heavier than shimano equivilant (price)
    If we disregard range difference due to smallest cog size - shimano cassettes are much heavier then x-dome sram cassettes. Shimano does not compete with 270 gram 10-42 cassettes because they don't have the tech to do so.

    Not that I particularily care. I am about to mount 550g Sunshine cassette which is full steel and made of 1.8mm thick cogs (as opposed to 1.6mm, which is standard for 10 and 11 speed cassettes ). Being 230lbs makes one care very little about bike weight

    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007
    But the XD driver standard is a far superior mounting interface (smaller 10T driver, plus no scored hub shells)
    No it isn't. When considering the mammoth cassettes of today, we should long ago switch to a conical freehub shells similar to those offered by Kappius Components. Overwhelming majority of hubs on the market these days are not different to screwed on freewheel hubs of 30 years ago.

    Those which shimano freehub made obsolete.

  17. #17
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    I guess I'll be one of the lone dissenters here and come out in favour of Shimano.

    Whereas Eagle, and Sram's 1x10 before that, have obviously been 1x dedicated systems, I think some of the issues with Shimano have been that it was a 2x system that has been made into a 1x

    It takes a bit more work to get it perfect and sort out the ideal chainline -- which makes a huge difference, IMO. With Eagle you can install it and it's virtually perfect. With Shimano's it may take a bit more finding out what gives the ideal set up. For example, I've found the 11-46 to be a big improvement over other 11-speed Shimano cassettes; WolfTooth rings provide the best chainline; and if your set up allows it, splitting up the BB spacers to move the crank further inward.

    My shifting is super smooth, fast and quiet. It definitely took work getting it there but it's phenomenal now. By far best shifting I've had in 10 years of riding. I'd put it up against the Eagle, and I've ridden a few bikes with them. Both are out-of-this-world good. But they feel very different and it comes down to personal preference. And if you're like me you just prefer the feel and action of Shimano. Same with brakes. And suspension.

  18. #18
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    12 speeds externally is just silly. So are 11.

    The point of diminishing returns has been passed, long ago. Horrible chainlines and expensive, single-season components are becoming common, and despicable.

    The time to develop, *really* develop and refine, internal shifting is long overdue.

    Gearbox? IGH? I don't really care, as long as they spend proper time and attention to getting things right.

  19. #19
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    Im with you on that, 11s so far seems ok for wear so far, but chains arent getting the mileage that 10s does. 12 speed I have to chuckle at a bit. Anything beyond 9s and shimano double shift or grip shift it takes forever to go from granny to bottom. Thankfully shimano double click makes it better and here i dont go from granny ring to top speed. But for those that ride trails like that, how is anything beyond grip shift not annoying as hell???

    Goes to show how much money people piss away, but its still far cheaper than many other hobbies. And far healthier.

    Here where I am 1x make sense. 1x10 is enough usually, 11 only because sometimes a 42t just isnt low enough unless you want to totally kill top end.

    I dont get the obsession of it being an upgrade though. 1x is a major downgrade. And 0 innovation involved.

    Id love to see some nice internal gear range that isnt stupid heavy. Can be done if the efforts were put into it.

    But why would manufacturers do that. Charge a premium for modified old tech that is much cheaper to manufacture? They are making a killing.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Goes to show how much money people piss away, but its still far cheaper than many other hobbies. And far healthier.
    I agree with this in general. But component manufacturers can do better. Personally I believe they'll milk the market for all they can making annual incremental improvements before they finally go revolutionary. Why not continue to outmode last year's stuff by just a little bit when the public keeps upgrading every year? That's the way to make money.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Here where I am 1x make sense. 1x10 is enough usually, 11 only because sometimes a 42t just isnt low enough unless you want to totally kill top end.
    The same range can be provided with 10 speeds. We don't need 11 speeds to employ a 46t or larger cog.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    I dont get the obsession of it being an upgrade though. 1x is a major downgrade. And 0 innovation involved.
    Without saying you're wrong, I disagree with you here. I'm saying for some riders, including me, 1x is indeed a major upgrade. But maybe it isn't for you. The advantages of a 1x drivetrain may not work for you but this doesn't mean 1x isn't ideal for others. Even as I pitch my worthless old front derailleurs off a bridge with a sinister laugh, I won't deny that others may feel the FD is the most important component on their bike. Personally I don't get it, but that's not important. On their bikes, they decide what's important. On my bike, I do. For me, 1x is the best system I've used yet. By far.

    But as for cassettes, they should have quit at 9 or 10 speeds.
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  21. #21
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    Total range and number of speeds are different things. Eagle is 500% range with 12 speeds but you could have 500% with fewer speeds. The number of speeds influences the change in ratios between adjacent cogs. I need/want nothing beyond the typical current 420% 11 speed gearing.
    Do the math.

  22. #22
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    Wow, at what point do we realize they already have a 22 s and 33 s option right now😉

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Here where I am 1x make sense. 1x10 is enough usually, 11 only because sometimes a 42t just isnt low enough unless you want to totally kill top end.

    11-36t isn't quite enough for me and to get more out of 10-speed you need to use aftermarket parts and/or deal with sup-par performance, I tried 1x10 but it was a compromise. I do think 1x can be an upgrade performance wise but agree that prices for wear items are getting ridiculous and they seem to be wearing out faster than ever.

    No internal gears for me though, not yet anyway. Planetary gears and 100 tiny moving parts that I would have no idea how to fix in the field if something went wrong doesn't appeal to me. Derailleurs and cogs may be archaic but they are relatively simple and have been extremely reliable over the years, for me anyway.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    11-36t isn't quite enough for me and to get more out of 10-speed you need to use aftermarket parts and/or deal with sup-par performance, I tried 1x10 but it was a compromise.
    What didn't you like about 1x10? The range? I agree it's a compromise, I'm on a 30t with 11-36t and occasionally would like a tall a gear. But the trouble is the trails I ride are too rough to pedal once I'm getting into the taller gears. Plus I really love Saint and don't want to give it up to 11spd!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notched View Post
    What didn't you like about 1x10? The range?
    Yep that's about it, close to adequate range but not quite enough to make me totally happy.
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  26. #26
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    Shimano has been sniffing tailpipes for a few years now. Their 1 x 11 stuff is waaaaaaay behind. Sram E tap may send them to fishing rods only.

  27. #27
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    1x kinda sucks as there's just too many compromises. Bad chainlines at either extreme. And a 46 or 50t to a 10t is quite a size difference that the derailleur has to compensate for.
    Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

  28. #28
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    Again. Depends where you ride. For me I was happy on 1x9 with a 34t on the front. Now 1x10 is fine. However if I had bigger and longer hills I'd either go 11 speed or put a manual granny on the front. I like the silence and retention of 1x.

    Somewhat alarmingly I broke a shifter cable about 3 weeks ago. I was forced to a climb in 30t 18t, up one for the more unpleasant (but short climbs). This was as far as I could get the limit screws. And I made it up, I sounded like a wounded goat, but it was possible!

  29. #29
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    How many times have we had this argument...this week?

    THERE IS NO ARGUMENT, RUN WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND STOP DEMANDING EVERYONE AGREE WITH YOUR SETUP!!!

    I run 1x10 on my 130FS, 1x11 on my XC HT, might end up with 1x12 on my XC FS that I am planning to buy this winter. FD's are dead to me on MTB, they have been dead to me since I started riding MTB a couple of years ago. I would rather ride SS then have a FD. I'll be going 1x on my CX bike when I get around to doing it. 2x almost seems pointless on my TT bike, but I don't want to invest any money into my 15 year old TT bike. My roadie is a 1985 steel bike that I just upgrades from the original Suntour to Rival 10s. I'd ditch the FD on that too if I didn't climb so much.

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  31. #31
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    All my bikes, including road, are 1x. Road and b+ are 1x11, fat is 1x10. I did it because i dont need front and I liked the looks. Reminds me of being a kid. 5 gears in the back, 1 up front.

    1x drivelines are not an "upgrade". Upgrades are an improvement. 1x has been around since bikes have had chains. 2x and 3x are upgrades as they increase range. 1x limits it. Bmx, cruisers, walmart bikes all have 1x. Never an upgrade, just an "option" that people are getting drunk on calling it an upgrade.

    1x is all i ride and works great here. I have been riding 1x since the first NW rings started appearing. About a year after i started riding again. But going 1x will never be an "upgrade". Going from 1x9 to 1x12 would be. Something to be gained.

    I do agree that they could have stopped at 10 speed cassettes but i also enjoy the slightly tighter spacing and understand why other riders prefer it. Easier to maintain a comfortable cadence range.

    My road bike i use every bit of the cassette (11-40 rear with a 40t ring) as their are some steep climbs around here, not long, just short and steep. And dont have to get very far north before im begging for a lower gear lol.

    My plus bike 11s gives me my normal cassette range of 10s then a bail out with almost perfect gear spacing.

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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The time to develop, *really* develop and refine, internal shifting is long overdue.
    Um, AMEN?!

    Five years ago I was sure Shimano would buy Rohloff, keep the reliability, reduce weight by 30%, and rule the world.

    I was wrong!
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    I dont get the obsession of it being an upgrade though. 1x is a major downgrade. And 0 innovation involved.
    As far as I can tell, the only person that is obsessed with it being an upgrade on this thread is you. I currently run 1x and it meets my needs in a simple manner. Just run 2x or 3x if that is what you prefer.

  34. #34
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    Seems you didntt actually read any of what I wrote. And if you read all the 1x threads everyone talks like its the greatest upgrade ever lol. I dont care that its technically "downgrading" its what I run on all my bikes. Just calling it an "upgrade" I don't get. Cause its not.

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Seems you didntt actually read any of what I wrote. And if you read all the 1x threads everyone talks like its the greatest upgrade ever lol. I dont care that its technically "downgrading" its what I run on all my bikes. Just calling it an "upgrade" I don't get. Cause its not.

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    That's your opinion. In my opinion, it's an upgrade. Semantics. For me, it's better.
    You downgrade your bike while I upgrade mine.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    That's your opinion. In my opinion, it's an upgrade. Semantics. For me, it's better.
    You downgrade your bike while I upgrade mine.
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    EXACTLY! Its options is all really.

    Just rubs me the wrong way that its being pushed as some major upgrade to what already exists. Just improved on the 1x many where using long before all this. So much koolaid being dumped on us.

    And well crap, seems I threw the thread off track a little, my bad.

    I am curious to see what shimano does, but still with mikesee. Want some real innovation into other drivetrain designs. Their bordering beating a dead horse now. Not to mention 46/50t cogs just look silly. And my plus bike is 11 - 46....

    There is stuff that can be done at the crank too.

    Both ideas would be more costly but would be awesome.

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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogiKudo View Post
    Shimano has been sniffing tailpipes for a few years now. Their 1 x 11 stuff is waaaaaaay behind. Sram E tap may send them to fishing rods only.
    E tap? You mean eTAP?

    Look at the SRAM vs Shimano sales numbers and what is on new bikes and things will get back to perspective.

  38. #38
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    Thing that guy is high on something. Shimano is way ahead of Sram for electronic shifting. Di2. Available in MTB, sram eTap still isnt last I checked.

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  39. #39
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    I am waiting for 12 speed

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  40. #40
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    I recently got a Scott with an XTR 2x11 and everyone keeps asking me when I'm going to 'replace' the 2x and go 1x. I thought it might be an 'upgrade' I would make but after riding it as is for a couple of months I'm in no hurry to make the change honestly...this thing is smooth as butta'

  41. #41
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    Regarding the 1x as upgrade.

    I actually am working on getting a 2x system on my Mondraker. I can live with 1x everywhere, except on the bike which I use to ride steep mountains.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon123 View Post
    I guess I'll be one of the lone dissenters here and come out in favour of Shimano.

    Whereas Eagle, and Sram's 1x10 before that, have obviously been 1x dedicated systems, I think some of the issues with Shimano have been that it was a 2x system that has been made into a 1x

    It takes a bit more work to get it perfect and sort out the ideal chainline -- which makes a huge difference, IMO. With Eagle you can install it and it's virtually perfect. With Shimano's it may take a bit more finding out what gives the ideal set up. For example, I've found the 11-46 to be a big improvement over other 11-speed Shimano cassettes; WolfTooth rings provide the best chainline; and if your set up allows it, splitting up the BB spacers to move the crank further inward.

    My shifting is super smooth, fast and quiet. It definitely took work getting it there but it's phenomenal now. By far best shifting I've had in 10 years of riding. I'd put it up against the Eagle, and I've ridden a few bikes with them. Both are out-of-this-world good. But they feel very different and it comes down to personal preference. And if you're like me you just prefer the feel and action of Shimano. Same with brakes. And suspension.
    Thanks for that. I'm a Shimano guy too and I spend time shimming the cranks and chainring(s) and cassettte to get a better chainline. I'm hoping for an 11-50 XTR 12speed cassette under 300 grams with a better chainline. All these grouppos favor the smaller cogs in terms of chainline. I aim to favor the bigger cogs. Hopefully Shimano can do that for XTR 2019-2022.

  43. #43
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    XTR 1x12

    Here are some details if anyone is interested:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rumor of new XTR 12 speed?-xtr-1x12.jpg  


  44. #44
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    Shimano with the 10T. Nice that the 11sp XTR gets a 10-45.

    I like their 12sp gearing better than SRAM's.

  45. #45
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    There was another recent thread here with a link to actual specs. That site has been locked since and the MTBR thread closed (it is invalid link now).

    so yes, someone with power makes effort to NOT release that information. why would a powerful sponsor ... cough cough shimano.... pull strings to take down "rumors"? Draw your own conclusions.

    My guess is they want to publish it at Sea Otter
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    There was another recent thread here with a link to actual specs. That site has been locked since and the MTBR thread closed (it is invalid link now).

    so yes, someone with power makes effort to NOT release that information. why would a powerful sponsor ... cough cough shimano.... pull strings to take down "rumors"? Draw your own conclusions.

    My guess is they want to publish it at Sea Otter
    I noticed the same. Other thread had lots of detail.
    Very sad — and pathetic — mtbr would delete it.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon123 View Post
    I noticed the same. Other thread had lots of detail.
    Very sad — and pathetic — mtbr would delete it.
    Apparently the censors don't know how the Internet works and what happens if you actively try to suppress information on the internet :-)
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  48. #48
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    Shimano just dropped a few notches in my book. What a bunch of BS. Can't even have a discussion about their upcoming products, give me a break.
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  49. #49
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    This cracks me up. The 10-45 makes a lot of sense, as I think SRAM's 10-50 has just a little too wide of spacing at the lower end. But if Shimano goes and makes a 10-51, then it will be like Spinal Tap's amps that go to eleven.

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    You mean this spec sheet?

    Rumor of new XTR 12 speed?-shimano-12.jpg

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    Is anyone running one yet? Or is Shimano just peddling spec-sheet hype?

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    Two unanswered questions: details of the new XTR freehub (in addition to supporting a 10T, it's also apparently silent) and the nature of front derailleur compatiblity. 2x12 was listed. If they're combining a 10-51 with the usual 26/36, I would expect a very long derailleur and the ability to climb the trees abutting the trail.

    Just mulling before this thread is also inevitably deleted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    Shimano just dropped a few notches in my book. What a bunch of BS. Can't even have a discussion about their upcoming products, give me a break.
    Considering it had a link to specs they didn't want released yet, seems fair. This thread has that info so I would expect this to get shut down as well.

    Funny rereading all the comments about Sram having Shimano beat. Well now that Egale has been out a while and we know that sliding into sync is considered normal, jamming chains between lower pulley and cage ripping of RD is also an issue, I wonder how much slack Shimano will get if it's not perfect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    All my bikes, including road, are 1x. Road and b+ are 1x11, fat is 1x10. I did it because i dont need front and I liked the looks. Reminds me of being a kid. 5 gears in the back, 1 up front.

    1x drivelines are not an "upgrade". Upgrades are an improvement. 1x has been around since bikes have had chains. 2x and 3x are upgrades as they increase range. 1x limits it. Bmx, cruisers, walmart bikes all have 1x. Never an upgrade, just an "option" that people are getting drunk on calling it an upgrade.

    1x is all i ride and works great here. I have been riding 1x since the first NW rings started appearing. About a year after i started riding again. But going 1x will never be an "upgrade". Going from 1x9 to 1x12 would be. Something to be gained.

    I do agree that they could have stopped at 10 speed cassettes but i also enjoy the slightly tighter spacing and understand why other riders prefer it. Easier to maintain a comfortable cadence range.

    My road bike i use every bit of the cassette (11-40 rear with a 40t ring) as their are some steep climbs around here, not long, just short and steep. And dont have to get very far north before im begging for a lower gear lol.

    My plus bike 11s gives me my normal cassette range of 10s then a bail out with almost perfect gear spacing.

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    Technically you're wrong.

    A typical 2x today is a 36x24 on a mtb (36 ÷ 24) 1.5 x (36 ÷ 11) 3.27 x 100 = 491%.
    Eagle 12speed is 50 ÷ 10 = 5 x 100 = 500%
    XTR 12speed is 51 ÷ 10 = 5.1 x 100 = 510%
    E13 11 speed is 46 ÷ 9 = 5.11 x 100 = 511%

    You are confusing more gears with more range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallain View Post
    Technically you're wrong. ... You are confusing more gears with more range.
    I strongly suspect he knows more about gearing than you. If we're cherry-picking, a 24/36 paired with an 11-42 would be 573% range, more than any existing cassette alone.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Is anyone running one yet? Or is Shimano just peddling spec-sheet hype?
    I'm guessing its just spec sheets for now. Sea Otter is just around the corner. Maybe they'll announce it then.

    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    Shimano just dropped a few notches in my book. What a bunch of BS. Can't even have a discussion about their upcoming products, give me a break.
    No different than the mods deleting threads about SRAM Eagle before it was announced.

    Lol...once it hits the internet...there is no "deleting".

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    I strongly suspect he knows more about gearing than you. If we're cherry-picking, a 24/36 paired with an 11-42 would be 573% range, more than any existing cassette alone.
    Really, more then me? Based on what? No what would I know, I only worked with bikes for the latest 20 years and only started riding mtb in 89...

    But that's not the issue.

    What he wrote was that it's a downgrade what I simply stated was that no it is not. In most cases it is an upgrade.

    And by the way you could use a Schlumpf Speed-Drive with Rolhoff hub...

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    Okay, let's all settle this once and for all about who knows most. Let's whip out our dicks and start measuring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallain View Post
    And by the way you could use a Schlumpf Speed-Drive with Rolhoff hub...
    Neat. I wasn't familiar with that one. Similar to these two:

    https://www.pattersonbike.com
    https://www.sram.com/truvativ/family/hammerschmidt

    Weight, friction, and cost always seem to do the planetaries in for general use.

    There's an alternative I thought I had promise. It's a 2X system with a standard small ring and split large ring that pivots inward in segments to 'collect' the chain, so the shift is instant with no lateral chain movement and no sensitivity to torque.

    https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/03/02...-to-gearboxes/

    To steer back on topic, though, I think front shifting is rapidly becoming a non-problem. 12 gears is enough to provide an adequate spread with reasonable jumps for most uses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    Neat. I wasn't familiar with that one. Similar to these two:

    https://www.pattersonbike.com
    https://www.sram.com/truvativ/family/hammerschmidt

    Weight, friction, and cost always seem to do the planetaries in for general use.

    There's an alternative I thought I had promise. It's a 2X system with a standard small ring and split large ring that pivots inward in segments to 'collect' the chain, so the shift is instant with no lateral chain movement and no sensitivity to torque. Can't remember the name.
    I remember that one, but since it's almost 2 hours past my bedtime I'm having difficulties recalling the name

    https://vectr-gear.com is an option with just one ring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallain View Post
    I remember that one, but since it's almost 2 hours past my bedtime I'm having difficulties recalling the name.
    I just did a ninja-edit, it's the Vyro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    I just did a ninja-edit, it's the Vyro.
    Haha! yes! nice one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    Lol...once it hits the internet...there is no "deleting".
    That's my point, it's ridiculous for Shimano or Sram or anyone for that matter to try and play announcement police when something has already been published and is being discussed. It's even more ridiculous if you consider that many of the posts were very positive anticipation of shimano releasing it. That's what you get when you have a bunch of lawyers and corporate bureaucracy running a company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallain View Post
    Haha! yes! nice one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    That's my point, it's ridiculous for Shimano or Sram or anyone for that matter to try and play announcement police when something has already been published and is being discussed. It's even more ridiculous if you consider that many of the posts were very positive anticipation of shimano releasing it. That's what you get when you have a bunch of lawyers and corporate bureaucracy running a company.
    So since every other manufacturer does the same thing, they all went down a notch as well and all is equalized again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    So since every other manufacturer does the same thing, they all went down a notch as well and all is equalized again.
    What other manufacturers get discussion threads completely removed? This is the first time I've seen anything like this in a public discussion forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    What other manufacturers get discussion threads completely removed? This is the first time I've seen anything like this in a public discussion forum.
    LOL seriously?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    Apparently the censors don't know how the Internet works and what happens if you actively try to suppress information on the internet :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    Shimano just dropped a few notches in my book. What a bunch of BS. Can't even have a discussion about their upcoming products, give me a break.
    Not Shimano, necessarily. It is mtbr, who is probably trying to be "legit" media and is trying to appease the manufacturers.

    If mfr's want to maintain embargoes on info, it is really incumbent on them to share it only with trustworthy sources. And if they don't like info getting out, they need to track down the weak links themselves.

    Because yeah, once it gets onto the internet, there is no putting it back into the bag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    What other manufacturers get discussion threads completely removed? This is the first time I've seen anything like this in a public discussion forum.
    Ellsworth?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I wonder how much slack Shimano will get if it's not perfect.
    The usual amount...zero.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jestep View Post
    What other manufacturers get discussion threads completely removed? This is the first time I've seen anything like this in a public discussion forum.
    MTBR regularily purges discussions on leaks of unreleased products. Same thing happend before Eagle was released - mtbr was removing threads about the leaks and rumors.

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    I have read the information on that site carefuly.
    Here is what i have remembered:
    - race brakes will have alloy one-piece caliper, magnesium lever and carbon hand;
    - trail brakes will have 4 pistons, alloy two-piece caliper, alloy lever and alloy hand;
    - crankset will have direct mount chainring (from 38 to 28 tooth, do not remember exactly) and 38-28 two speed variant;
    - rear shifter will be 11/12 speed (may be with some switcher);
    - front shifter will have only one lever;
    - freehub body will be alloy;
    - rotors will be sm-rt900.

  73. #73
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    Oh boy.. I recall seeing a Shimano freehub patent a while ago. I hope this rumor is true!

    These massive cassettes are ridiculous! It's just more dead weight to carry around where you don't want it. I have 11sp XTR and I never use my 40t cog, even when it gets steep.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    Two unanswered questions: details of the new XTR freehub (in addition to supporting a 10T, it's also apparently silent) and the nature of front derailleur compatiblity. 2x12 was listed. If they're combining a 10-51 with the usual 26/36, I would expect a very long derailleur and the ability to climb the trees abutting the trail.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMass View Post
    Oh boy.. I recall seeing a Shimano freehub patent a while ago. I hope this rumor is true!
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/01/26...next-dura-ace/

    It's true. Just turned out to be for XTR first.

    The only disappointment is that it won't fit XD cassettes. SRAM's one-piece steel approach is lighter and more durable than having multiple titanium sprockets. I expect Shimano's 11S 10-45 cassette to weigh about the same as SRAM's 12S 10-50, and for the 12S 10-45 and 12S 10-51 to weigh 50-100g more. The freehub itself will probably be 20g heavier.

    Which means XX1 11S will still be a class apart. It's no coincidence that Specialized pairs that specific cassette with XTR Di2 on the most expensive MTB they sell. They may well do it again next year.

  75. #75
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    Interesting they'd make a new cassette for 11 speed.

    Typically par for the course when a company comes out with a new line, ie. 12 speed, there's no more new updates for the previous generation.

    But this 11-speed 10-45 cassette is a nice addition for those happy to stick with their 11-speed setup but want a lighter cassette -- which no doubt this will be as it's XTR -- than the XT 11-46, or an extender cog or an aftermarket cassette. Great range and spacing too.

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    I just did. 1x is not an upgrade. You can always take off the FD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jon123 View Post
    Interesting they'd make a new cassette for 11 speed.

    Typically par for the course when a company comes out with a new line, ie. 12 speed, there's no more new updates for the previous generation.

    But this 11-speed 10-45 cassette is a nice addition for those happy to stick with their 11-speed setup but want a lighter cassette -- which no doubt this will be as it's XTR -- than the XT 11-46, or an extender cog or an aftermarket cassette. Great range and spacing too.
    It's obvious that they are bowing to pressure from SRAM, just like how they finally went to narrow-wide teeth. SRAM has been dominating drivetrain development for a while. Shimano tried to counter with their electronic shifting, but the gears and chain retention is much more fundamental.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It's obvious that they are bowing to pressure from SRAM, just like how they finally went to narrow-wide teeth. SRAM has been dominating drivetrain development for a while. Shimano tried to counter with their electronic shifting, but the gears and chain retention is much more fundamental.

    No doubt that Shimano got left in the dust as far as 1x technology but I'm betting when they finally debut their 12-sp wide range they will surpass sram. Of course I could be 100% wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    No doubt that Shimano got left in the dust as far as 1x technology but I'm betting when they finally debut their 12-sp wide range they will surpass sram. Of course I could be 100% wrong.
    I doubt you're wrong. Shimano has stepped in it dramatically several times over the years (recalling BioPace, Rapid Rise to name a couple) but once they see the light, they have no problem playing catch up -- or rather leap frog -- with aplomb.
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I doubt you're wrong. Shimano has stepped in it dramatically several times over the years (recalling BioPace, Rapid Rise to name a couple) but once they see the light, they have no problem playing catch up -- or rather leap frog -- with aplomb.
    =sParty
    Rapid rise and biopace were a long time ago, not "recent" in shimano history IMO. IMO, it use to be that shimano was higher quality/function than SRAM for many years. SRAM tried to extend their initial grip-shift hoopla by acquiring Sachs, but the only thing that came from that was rebranding Sachs products already offered or under development. Sram even tried to put out component packages, but shimano was far ahead with technology and R&D. I remember snapping countless 9.0 rear derailleurs and the b-tension rings that I still have a few of. That all ended IMO when SRAM debuted 1x11 and the rest was history. Shimano has been playing catch-up ever since, and that was even a little while back now too. SRAM put in the R&D necessary for the CNC cassettes, much better cassette-carrier interface, effective precision/solid shifting, even going as far as carbon cranks and the 1x ring interface and so on. There's much more, but the point is Shimano has at best been following in the last 10 years or so now, making pretty good brakes, although with the one huge flaw that they won't provide any seal-kits for the brakes, so they end up as disposable in the long run. Shimano coming out with 12 speed and increased range is simply going to where SRAM has already been for a few years now. Yes, maybe Shimano will come out with some new stuff that will put us into a new era, but the 1x era was pioneered by SRAM, who did their homework first this time. Looking at the "serious" MTB industry length, this is probably around a third of the total history now, which is a significant number IMO. SRAM 1uped Shimano at their own game and Shimano has been trying to find their place ever since and the duration of this has not been insignificant.
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  81. #81
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    Jayem has it nailed.
    I would like to add that switching from slant to parallel rear derailleurs was a huge step in chain management. Most people don't even know Sram switched, just that they are 1X specific. Parallel derailleurs are isolated from chain forces and you can make the springs weaker for better shifting feel without ghost shifting.

    I was a Shimano guy for 20 years and when 1X11 came out, it was so good top to bottom that I switched and have never had a reason to go back. Di2 is amazing and electronic is the future, but the rest of the drivetrain is too far behind Sram.
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    I check the Eagle thread now and then and reviews aren't exactly stellar. I think Shimano will out engineer them, for awhile anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I check the Eagle thread now and then and reviews aren't exactly stellar. I think Shimano will out engineer them, for awhile anyway.
    Pretty much this sums it up. Sram might be first, be they use customers as beta testers.

    So far what I see Eagle beta testers getting the joy of experiencing:

    Slipping into sync
    Coming off lower pulley and ripping rd off
    and recently a few people post how it sucks in mud.

    Really wish I hadn't missed the boat
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Pretty much this sums it up. Sram might be first, be they use customers as beta testers.

    So far what I see Eagle beta testers getting the joy of experiencing:

    Slipping into sync
    Coming off lower pulley and ripping rd off
    and recently a few people post how it sucks in mud.

    Really wish I hadn't missed the boat
    Have any idea how many bikes this is coming on? This has become the standard for many bikes/specs. If it's that bad, I doubt it would be offered. I'd reckon to say most bikes around here come with some variation of Eagle and have for a few years now. If they weren't working...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Have any idea how many bikes this is coming on? This has become the standard for many bikes/specs. If it's that bad, I doubt it would be offered. I'd reckon to say most bikes around here come with some variation of Eagle and have for a few years now. If they weren't working...
    yea I do and the slipping into sync happens on all of them.

    As far as the RD ripping off, I'm sure you have a good idea how Shimano and Sram 11 speed set ups are out there, don't read about people drilling holes in the cages and putting pieces of plastic in there to keep it from happening. So yea might not a lot but an expensive oops only happens to a fraction of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    yea I do and the slipping into sync happens on all of them.

    As far as the RD ripping off, I'm sure you have a good idea how Shimano and Sram 11 speed set ups are out there, don't read about people drilling holes in the cages and putting pieces of plastic in there to keep it from happening. So yea might not a lot but an expensive oops only happens to a fraction of them.
    I remember ripping derailleurs off back in the 2000s, mostly shimano, but SRAM before I switched over. We went to some pretty extensive measures, like this one I used. Then SRAM and Shimano switched to the "shadow" type linkages that were sucked in and didn't stick way out to snag whatever was on the trail. Since that time, I've had a dramatic reduction in trashed derailleurs, it's gone from being a "thing" I had to deal with, to an almost non-existent problem now.

    I do have a shimano XT/XTR setup right now on one of my bikes, but it's much more clunky, takes more finger power to change gears, which is a little over the line of what I deem to be acceptable, the xtr cassette uses a variety of exotic materials to still end up almost 60g heavier than the SRAM X01 that has even more range. The XTR derailleur is ok, but the simple latch on the SRAM derailleurs is brilliant if you ask me, because when I remove and install the wheel, this completely relieves all the chain tension, whereas the Shimano one is trying to jam my studded tire into the chainstays and scratch the hell out of the bike any time I do the same, regardless of the clutch mechanism lever. For that reason I moved the shimano setup over to one of my summer bikes after just a year on the fat bike. There are a few other reasons it's not as well suited for the winter riding, but those same reasons apply in summer, just not to the same extent.

    Again, SRAM has been killing it as far as drivetrains for a few years now. I fully admit they used to put out some shoddy stuff that just wouldn't hold up, and Shimano would almost always put out solid stuff, even if it didn't catch on. Rapid rise and the dual-control stuff worked, it just didn't fall to rider preference.

    Rumor of new XTR 12 speed?-rr_026.jpg
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    No fanboi of either Shimano or SRAM. Current bikes have Eagle, and it's good, but not without its own foibles.

    First, because SRAM apparently that the majority of riders backpedal a lot in gears 1 and 2, they went to N/W profiles on those two cogs, making shifting in the 3-2-1 range inconsistent. Not a deal breaker, but occasionally annoying.

    Second, and a bigger deal to me, is that the Eagle clutch is only OK. I'd personally like a bit more tension, and its no longer adjustable like the Older SRAM and current Shimano RDs.

    But for now at least, the tipping point for me is that sweet 10-50 range in the dirt (despite the silly 8t jump at the top of the cassette). Shimano's upcoming cog choices seem a bit better to my eye.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I remember ripping derailleurs off back in the 2000s, mostly shimano, but SRAM before I switched over. We went to some pretty extensive measures, like this one I used. Then SRAM and Shimano switched to the "shadow" type linkages that were sucked in and didn't stick way out to snag whatever was on the trail. Since that time, I've had a dramatic reduction in trashed derailleurs, it's gone from being a "thing" I had to deal with, to an almost non-existent problem now.

    I do have a shimano XT/XTR setup right now on one of my bikes, but it's much more clunky, takes more finger power to change gears, which is a little over the line of what I deem to be acceptable, the xtr cassette uses a variety of exotic materials to still end up almost 60g heavier than the SRAM X01 that has even more range. The XTR derailleur is ok, but the simple latch on the SRAM derailleurs is brilliant if you ask me, because when I remove and install the wheel, this completely relieves all the chain tension, whereas the Shimano one is trying to jam my studded tire into the chainstays and scratch the hell out of the bike any time I do the same, regardless of the clutch mechanism lever. For that reason I moved the shimano setup over to one of my summer bikes after just a year on the fat bike. There are a few other reasons it's not as well suited for the winter riding, but those same reasons apply in summer, just not to the same extent.

    Again, SRAM has been killing it as far as drivetrains for a few years now. I fully admit they used to put out some shoddy stuff that just wouldn't hold up, and Shimano would almost always put out solid stuff, even if it didn't catch on. Rapid rise and the dual-control stuff worked, it just didn't fall to rider preference.
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    Hey Jayem did the impact/crash/whatever in your photo crack your frame? Chainstay looks like it might be toast.
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I remember ripping derailleurs off back in the 2000s, mostly shimano, but SRAM before I switched over. We went to some pretty extensive measures, like this one I used. Then SRAM and Shimano switched to the "shadow" type linkages that were sucked in and didn't stick way out to snag whatever was on the trail. Since that time, I've had a dramatic reduction in trashed derailleurs, it's gone from being a "thing" I had to deal with, to an almost non-existent problem now.

    I do have a shimano XT/XTR setup right now on one of my bikes, but it's much more clunky, takes more finger power to change gears, which is a little over the line of what I deem to be acceptable, the xtr cassette uses a variety of exotic materials to still end up almost 60g heavier than the SRAM X01 that has even more range. The XTR derailleur is ok, but the simple latch on the SRAM derailleurs is brilliant if you ask me, because when I remove and install the wheel, this completely relieves all the chain tension, whereas the Shimano one is trying to jam my studded tire into the chainstays and scratch the hell out of the bike any time I do the same, regardless of the clutch mechanism lever. For that reason I moved the shimano setup over to one of my summer bikes after just a year on the fat bike. There are a few other reasons it's not as well suited for the winter riding, but those same reasons apply in summer, just not to the same extent.

    Again, SRAM has been killing it as far as drivetrains for a few years now. I fully admit they used to put out some shoddy stuff that just wouldn't hold up, and Shimano would almost always put out solid stuff, even if it didn't catch on. Rapid rise and the dual-control stuff worked, it just didn't fall to rider preference.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I get it, you needed to go back when an object was ripping off the RD and comparing that to the drivetrain itself ripping the RD off. Sorry if I consider there to be a big difference
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    yea I do and the slipping into sync happens on all of them.

    As far as the RD ripping off, I'm sure you have a good idea how Shimano and Sram 11 speed set ups are out there, don't read about people drilling holes in the cages and putting pieces of plastic in there to keep it from happening. So yea might not a lot but an expensive oops only happens to a fraction of them.
    Seems you have a personal problem with Sram. People like to modify parts from all manufacturers. Sram drivetrains overall have a very high reliability rate. There brakes less so.
    I have always liked shimano more and there quality on high end parts seems to be better. That being said even shimano has had production problems with parts. My xtr rear derailleur had a spring that was to short and would pop out.

    I have ridden every generation of mountain bike drivetrain from both Shimano and Sram and seen all of the various changes and problems. Right now Sram is on par with shimano with build quality and several steps ahead in chainring, chain, cassette and derailleur design. There cranks are lighter too.

    People are hard on things and eagle is expensive. Every drivetrain will fail when packed with mud or bash it into a rock. Setup matters too and simple things like hangers will mess up a drivetrain and drive you mad.

    Derailleur clutch should be adjustable.
    Derailleur b screw interface can be off on some frames.
    Narrow wide on 42/50 is better than dropping chains, but imperfect.

    I just built a bike and it was easy to pick eagle over xtr.
    When I build my road bike it will be shimano unless something changes in the next year and Sram builds a better system.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

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    SRAM did a great job on eTap. I have three sets of shifters on my ride with both 11-25 and 11-32 available and a compact double. Just flawless. But DI2 XT 2x is a force when using one shifter and Syncro shift. I need close ratios because they just rule. 1x made by any manufacturer does not work for me. Sure SRAM has a 500% range but some of the gaps are too large for me. I need to stay in a close range of cadence and the jumps are extreme. DI2 XT will even work with a triple. While not for me, syncro shifting a triple is a way to keep the ratios closer than a single can achieve. So I use 11-40 with 36/26 on the Lynskey. As good as Eagle is, I remember riding a five speed Schwinn with a single in the 60’s. Upgrade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Seems you have a personal problem with Sram. People like to modify parts from all manufacturers.
    No just calling out what I see.

    You're saying that the plastic shim in the cage is part of mod culture? LOL that's rich.

    This is a band aid not a mod, but hey other people in that thread tried to blame set up as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by scooterman View Post
    Just had the chain dropping off the lower pulley and jamming today. Drive train probably has 400-500 miles. Had to walk like 3 miles. The amount these pulleys can flex is incredible they need to be a lot harder material. Also the gap in the cage needs to be smaller. Going to call sram and ask them for new parts and a chain.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrialsCartel View Post
    Same here. Chain goes off top pulley, I pedal not knowing and inner cage breaks where there`s a small threaded head. I`ve damaged 2 Eagle GX (mine and my son`s :O)....Both off to warranty including one of my team mate`s and another client (4 total).

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbikewv View Post
    In an attempt to keep the chain from jumping off the bottom pulley and getting caught between the pulley and the cage. I closed up the gap behind the chain and the cage. The theory being it would be easier to keep the chain on the pulley and thus prevent the jam of happening and destroy everything. So far so good. I did this 2 months ago and I have not had anymore issues. Even with the derailleur fully extended the plastic piece does not interfere with the chain. I figured I better try something to prevent the issue before it happens again - very expensive repair. You can't keep doing the same thing and expect better results.
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdexpress View Post
    Upgrade?
    Yeah, upgrade. Maybe not for you, but for many of us.
    Use whatever you like, as will I. We each make our own way.
    =sParty
    P.S. Nice new bike you've got there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdexpress View Post
    But DI2 XT 2x is a force when using one shifter and Syncro shift.
    This is not what I found. A friend bought a bike with XTR Di2 and a double last year. I spent ten minutes on it doing circles in the parking lot, shifting aggressively under power to see how it would react. Two minutes in, the chain dropped. Front shifts at slow cadences didn't immediately catch. Shifting in the back was fine, but slower and less reactive than my XX1/11 setup. Nothing about this experience persuaded me that front derailleurs have a future on mountain bikes.

    Eagle hasn't been all roses either. I've tried five demo bikes with GX or X01. Three of them had no obvious symptoms of miscalibration, but still missed shifts on the trail. XX1/11 is pretty sensitive to setup. Eagle, it would appear even more so.

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    Of course we go our own route. And we share our thoughts and experiences here and there sure is a lot of diversity on this site. So we all learn and make our choices. Makes this place better than most.

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    Your experience does not match mine. Maybe not set up correctly, maybe a defective part or damaged in some way. I have found shifting from eTap or DI2 have been flawless. Everytime flawless. Last year I switched my eTap 26,500 times (according to Garmin) and not once missed a shift and never adjusted either front or rear derailuer all year. Not near the shifts on Shimano but still flawless. I read about it and did not believe it. Both systems work as advertised in my personal experience. I am not going back to cables.

    Oh, the speed of the shifts on DI2 are programable and can be done with your phone on the trail along with other options. Do you know how the bike was set up? If you didn’t, judging the speed of the shift may not be an indicator of the systems Capabilities. Was the bike equipped with XTr or XT crank? When I review products and post about it, it usually comes with many hours and days of use.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdexpress View Post
    If you didn’t, judging the speed of the shift may not be an indicator of the systems Capabilities.
    It's more fundamental than that. When you downshift mechanically, you're moving the derailleur as your thumb moves. By the time you hear and feel the click, the chain is already latching on to the next sprocket. Even upshifting where movement follows the click, the derailleur spring is faster than a servo motor. Moving up and down the entire cassette range, Di2 may well be quicker, but that's not my perception with individual shifts or groups of a few.

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    Oh my no. DI2 is connected by wires to the derailuers. The signal Travels at the speed of light from your thumb to the derailuer which is 186,000 miles a second. That is instantly considering the few feet it travels down the wire. Because eTap is wireless, it is 100 ms slower than DI2 but still damm fast. Now when you hit the shifter using cable, these is a very slight delay as the cable reacts to the forces applied to it. The spring will help going down the tree but not up. There is no adjustment for speed of shifts, DI2 has 4 or five choices on shift speed. You can choose on the trail with your phone wirelessly. Some choose a slow shift if you are trying to conserve battery or are riding in mud. Very rapid shifts are great in the clean and dry rides. In addition, you are always in the gear you want and never a missed shift as is my personal experience. They are amazing systems once wired and set up. Most who use these systems, do not go back to cables. I use to replace by cables and housings every year. Now I just charge batteries once a month for 45 minutes to an hour. Yes the systems are pricey and you need to charge the batteries once every 30-45 days but adjustments to the derailuer(s) are mostly gone and you just never miss a shift. And in syncro shift mode, you have a system you cannot beat in any manual system. For example while shifting down the tree, after four shifts in the rear, the front derailuer shifts to the big gear while the rear moves two gears up the tree to catch gear ratio next in line. I never did that manually but Shimano does it for me now faster and requires zero brain usage. These systems rock, period imho.
    Last edited by Emdexpress; 03-05-2018 at 06:50 AM.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdexpress View Post
    The signal Travels at the speed of light from your thumb to the derailuer which is 180,000 miles a second (roughly).
    Lovely. Does it go back in time?

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    Well in fact it does if you order the optional flux capacitor, lightweight model.

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