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  1. #1
    nimble biker
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    Rumor of new XTR 12 speed?

    Is there any rumor of new XTR 12 speed next year?

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  2. #2
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    I'm more curious about Saint. Has it been five years yet?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notched View Post
    I'm more curious about Saint. Has it been five years yet?
    This. Zee, in my case.

  4. #4
    make mine a nine
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    You think they're holding back to play catch up? They didn't take that long to move to 11speed. My money is on 13 speed.


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  5. #5
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    Why stop at 12?

    Rumor of new XTR 12 speed?-screen-shot-2017-08-10-10.44.56-pm.jpg

  6. #6
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    I would at least like to see a lighter 11-46 cassette, for now. I could see this happening for next year, with an all-new XTR in 2019.

  7. #7
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    ALLL THE SPEEDS

    Sorry, just seems nuts.

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  8. #8
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    shimano needs to work on getting the weight down on their components, I can't even imagine how heavy a XT 12 speed cassette would be!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    shimano needs to work on getting the weight down on their components, I can't even imagine how heavy a XT 12 speed cassette would be!
    What they really need to do is refine their 1x systems. I used to be a die hard Shimano user until I went 1x. My X0 Eagle is so much smoother and quieter than my 1x11 XTR. Shimano front shifting has always been light years ahead of SRAM, but for 1x systems (which seems to be the future standard) SRAM is killing Shimano.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    What they really need to do is refine their 1x systems. I used to be a die hard Shimano user until I went 1x. My X0 Eagle is so much smoother and quieter than my 1x11 XTR. Shimano front shifting has always been light years ahead of SRAM, but for 1x systems (which seems to be the future standard) SRAM is killing Shimano.
    I think they need to do both. I have XT M8000 but have spent extensive time on SRAM 11 and 12 speeds. The nice thing with the XT is that it just works. No need to tinker with anything, set up is easy, and once it is set up it requires minimal maintenance. That being said, SRAM has it beat everywhere else, especially with their new Eagle. It is lighter, smoother, and quieter. XT and even XTR are so much heavier it is ridiculous

  11. #11
    Anytime. Anywhere.
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    Shimano is far behind, and loosing ground rapidly.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by abevern View Post
    You think they're holding back to play catch up? They didn't take that long to move to 11speed. My money is on 13 speed.

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    Well if they go 13-speed, they are going to need to do something about the freehub. If 11t is the smallest cog, the biggest would need to be huge to get the range that would justify 13 speeds.

    They could just adopt the XD standard, but that would be admitting defeat.
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  13. #13
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    Not really, heavier complaint is a "wth" moment (its 30 grams give or take a few) Sram isnt competing on overall cost and requires proprietary hubs. Their lower line stuff is well heavier than shimano equivilant (price)

    Cassette weight means almost nothing. No one ever noticed 30 grams of cassette weight.

    Sram may be "better" for top tier for 1x but thats where it ends. I have sram gx and shimano xt. No performance difference. Like shimano dual shifting better though. And XT was more cost effective.

    What is funny is that bike innovation has gone backwards in this case. 1x has never been an upgrade, single chainring has been around a lot longer than gears. It has its perks but why all the "omg this the greatest thing since sliced bread" talk.

    So i dont think shimano is loosing a single ounce of ground overall to sram. And both companies are laughing their way to the bank cause the premiums their being paid to make products that cost less to manufacture than before. Im guilty of it too but I was riding 1x before it became the latest and greatest.

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  14. #14
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    I like my Sram X1, but when it's time to put on a cassette - I'm replacing entire drivetrain with 2x Di2 instead.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Not really, heavier complaint is a "wth" moment (its 30 grams give or take a few) Sram isnt competing on overall cost and requires proprietary hubs. Their lower line stuff is well heavier than shimano equivilant (price)


    My shimano 11-42 cassette tips the scales at 435g

    My Sram 10-42 cassettes tip the scales at 263g and 265g.

    The shomano stuff is great budget option. But the XD driver standard is a far superior mounting interface (smaller 10T driver, plus no scored hub shells)

    Yes, the sram stuff is way more $$$. But ya know what, I cant take it with me in the end!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Not really, heavier complaint is a "wth" moment (its 30 grams give or take a few) Sram isnt competing on overall cost and requires proprietary hubs. Their lower line stuff is well heavier than shimano equivilant (price)
    If we disregard range difference due to smallest cog size - shimano cassettes are much heavier then x-dome sram cassettes. Shimano does not compete with 270 gram 10-42 cassettes because they don't have the tech to do so.

    Not that I particularily care. I am about to mount 550g Sunshine cassette which is full steel and made of 1.8mm thick cogs (as opposed to 1.6mm, which is standard for 10 and 11 speed cassettes ). Being 230lbs makes one care very little about bike weight

    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007
    But the XD driver standard is a far superior mounting interface (smaller 10T driver, plus no scored hub shells)
    No it isn't. When considering the mammoth cassettes of today, we should long ago switch to a conical freehub shells similar to those offered by Kappius Components. Overwhelming majority of hubs on the market these days are not different to screwed on freewheel hubs of 30 years ago.

    Those which shimano freehub made obsolete.

  17. #17
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    I guess I'll be one of the lone dissenters here and come out in favour of Shimano.

    Whereas Eagle, and Sram's 1x10 before that, have obviously been 1x dedicated systems, I think some of the issues with Shimano have been that it was a 2x system that has been made into a 1x

    It takes a bit more work to get it perfect and sort out the ideal chainline -- which makes a huge difference, IMO. With Eagle you can install it and it's virtually perfect. With Shimano's it may take a bit more finding out what gives the ideal set up. For example, I've found the 11-46 to be a big improvement over other 11-speed Shimano cassettes; WolfTooth rings provide the best chainline; and if your set up allows it, splitting up the BB spacers to move the crank further inward.

    My shifting is super smooth, fast and quiet. It definitely took work getting it there but it's phenomenal now. By far best shifting I've had in 10 years of riding. I'd put it up against the Eagle, and I've ridden a few bikes with them. Both are out-of-this-world good. But they feel very different and it comes down to personal preference. And if you're like me you just prefer the feel and action of Shimano. Same with brakes. And suspension.

  18. #18
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    12 speeds externally is just silly. So are 11.

    The point of diminishing returns has been passed, long ago. Horrible chainlines and expensive, single-season components are becoming common, and despicable.

    The time to develop, *really* develop and refine, internal shifting is long overdue.

    Gearbox? IGH? I don't really care, as long as they spend proper time and attention to getting things right.

  19. #19
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    Im with you on that, 11s so far seems ok for wear so far, but chains arent getting the mileage that 10s does. 12 speed I have to chuckle at a bit. Anything beyond 9s and shimano double shift or grip shift it takes forever to go from granny to bottom. Thankfully shimano double click makes it better and here i dont go from granny ring to top speed. But for those that ride trails like that, how is anything beyond grip shift not annoying as hell???

    Goes to show how much money people piss away, but its still far cheaper than many other hobbies. And far healthier.

    Here where I am 1x make sense. 1x10 is enough usually, 11 only because sometimes a 42t just isnt low enough unless you want to totally kill top end.

    I dont get the obsession of it being an upgrade though. 1x is a major downgrade. And 0 innovation involved.

    Id love to see some nice internal gear range that isnt stupid heavy. Can be done if the efforts were put into it.

    But why would manufacturers do that. Charge a premium for modified old tech that is much cheaper to manufacture? They are making a killing.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Goes to show how much money people piss away, but its still far cheaper than many other hobbies. And far healthier.
    I agree with this in general. But component manufacturers can do better. Personally I believe they'll milk the market for all they can making annual incremental improvements before they finally go revolutionary. Why not continue to outmode last year's stuff by just a little bit when the public keeps upgrading every year? That's the way to make money.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Here where I am 1x make sense. 1x10 is enough usually, 11 only because sometimes a 42t just isnt low enough unless you want to totally kill top end.
    The same range can be provided with 10 speeds. We don't need 11 speeds to employ a 46t or larger cog.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    I dont get the obsession of it being an upgrade though. 1x is a major downgrade. And 0 innovation involved.
    Without saying you're wrong, I disagree with you here. I'm saying for some riders, including me, 1x is indeed a major upgrade. But maybe it isn't for you. The advantages of a 1x drivetrain may not work for you but this doesn't mean 1x isn't ideal for others. Even as I pitch my worthless old front derailleurs off a bridge with a sinister laugh, I won't deny that others may feel the FD is the most important component on their bike. Personally I don't get it, but that's not important. On their bikes, they decide what's important. On my bike, I do. For me, 1x is the best system I've used yet. By far.

    But as for cassettes, they should have quit at 9 or 10 speeds.
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  21. #21
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    Total range and number of speeds are different things. Eagle is 500% range with 12 speeds but you could have 500% with fewer speeds. The number of speeds influences the change in ratios between adjacent cogs. I need/want nothing beyond the typical current 420% 11 speed gearing.
    Do the math.

  22. #22
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    Wow, at what point do we realize they already have a 22 s and 33 s option right now😉

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Here where I am 1x make sense. 1x10 is enough usually, 11 only because sometimes a 42t just isnt low enough unless you want to totally kill top end.

    11-36t isn't quite enough for me and to get more out of 10-speed you need to use aftermarket parts and/or deal with sup-par performance, I tried 1x10 but it was a compromise. I do think 1x can be an upgrade performance wise but agree that prices for wear items are getting ridiculous and they seem to be wearing out faster than ever.

    No internal gears for me though, not yet anyway. Planetary gears and 100 tiny moving parts that I would have no idea how to fix in the field if something went wrong doesn't appeal to me. Derailleurs and cogs may be archaic but they are relatively simple and have been extremely reliable over the years, for me anyway.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    11-36t isn't quite enough for me and to get more out of 10-speed you need to use aftermarket parts and/or deal with sup-par performance, I tried 1x10 but it was a compromise.
    What didn't you like about 1x10? The range? I agree it's a compromise, I'm on a 30t with 11-36t and occasionally would like a tall a gear. But the trouble is the trails I ride are too rough to pedal once I'm getting into the taller gears. Plus I really love Saint and don't want to give it up to 11spd!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notched View Post
    What didn't you like about 1x10? The range?
    Yep that's about it, close to adequate range but not quite enough to make me totally happy.
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  26. #26
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    Shimano has been sniffing tailpipes for a few years now. Their 1 x 11 stuff is waaaaaaay behind. Sram E tap may send them to fishing rods only.

  27. #27
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    1x kinda sucks as there's just too many compromises. Bad chainlines at either extreme. And a 46 or 50t to a 10t is quite a size difference that the derailleur has to compensate for.
    Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

  28. #28
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    Again. Depends where you ride. For me I was happy on 1x9 with a 34t on the front. Now 1x10 is fine. However if I had bigger and longer hills I'd either go 11 speed or put a manual granny on the front. I like the silence and retention of 1x.

    Somewhat alarmingly I broke a shifter cable about 3 weeks ago. I was forced to a climb in 30t 18t, up one for the more unpleasant (but short climbs). This was as far as I could get the limit screws. And I made it up, I sounded like a wounded goat, but it was possible!

  29. #29
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    How many times have we had this argument...this week?

    THERE IS NO ARGUMENT, RUN WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND STOP DEMANDING EVERYONE AGREE WITH YOUR SETUP!!!

    I run 1x10 on my 130FS, 1x11 on my XC HT, might end up with 1x12 on my XC FS that I am planning to buy this winter. FD's are dead to me on MTB, they have been dead to me since I started riding MTB a couple of years ago. I would rather ride SS then have a FD. I'll be going 1x on my CX bike when I get around to doing it. 2x almost seems pointless on my TT bike, but I don't want to invest any money into my 15 year old TT bike. My roadie is a 1985 steel bike that I just upgrades from the original Suntour to Rival 10s. I'd ditch the FD on that too if I didn't climb so much.

  30. #30
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    Anyone interested in a lightly used typewriter?

  31. #31
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    All my bikes, including road, are 1x. Road and b+ are 1x11, fat is 1x10. I did it because i dont need front and I liked the looks. Reminds me of being a kid. 5 gears in the back, 1 up front.

    1x drivelines are not an "upgrade". Upgrades are an improvement. 1x has been around since bikes have had chains. 2x and 3x are upgrades as they increase range. 1x limits it. Bmx, cruisers, walmart bikes all have 1x. Never an upgrade, just an "option" that people are getting drunk on calling it an upgrade.

    1x is all i ride and works great here. I have been riding 1x since the first NW rings started appearing. About a year after i started riding again. But going 1x will never be an "upgrade". Going from 1x9 to 1x12 would be. Something to be gained.

    I do agree that they could have stopped at 10 speed cassettes but i also enjoy the slightly tighter spacing and understand why other riders prefer it. Easier to maintain a comfortable cadence range.

    My road bike i use every bit of the cassette (11-40 rear with a 40t ring) as their are some steep climbs around here, not long, just short and steep. And dont have to get very far north before im begging for a lower gear lol.

    My plus bike 11s gives me my normal cassette range of 10s then a bail out with almost perfect gear spacing.

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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The time to develop, *really* develop and refine, internal shifting is long overdue.
    Um, AMEN?!

    Five years ago I was sure Shimano would buy Rohloff, keep the reliability, reduce weight by 30%, and rule the world.

    I was wrong!
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    I dont get the obsession of it being an upgrade though. 1x is a major downgrade. And 0 innovation involved.
    As far as I can tell, the only person that is obsessed with it being an upgrade on this thread is you. I currently run 1x and it meets my needs in a simple manner. Just run 2x or 3x if that is what you prefer.
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  34. #34
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    Seems you didntt actually read any of what I wrote. And if you read all the 1x threads everyone talks like its the greatest upgrade ever lol. I dont care that its technically "downgrading" its what I run on all my bikes. Just calling it an "upgrade" I don't get. Cause its not.

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Seems you didntt actually read any of what I wrote. And if you read all the 1x threads everyone talks like its the greatest upgrade ever lol. I dont care that its technically "downgrading" its what I run on all my bikes. Just calling it an "upgrade" I don't get. Cause its not.

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    That's your opinion. In my opinion, it's an upgrade. Semantics. For me, it's better.
    You downgrade your bike while I upgrade mine.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    That's your opinion. In my opinion, it's an upgrade. Semantics. For me, it's better.
    You downgrade your bike while I upgrade mine.
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    EXACTLY! Its options is all really.

    Just rubs me the wrong way that its being pushed as some major upgrade to what already exists. Just improved on the 1x many where using long before all this. So much koolaid being dumped on us.

    And well crap, seems I threw the thread off track a little, my bad.

    I am curious to see what shimano does, but still with mikesee. Want some real innovation into other drivetrain designs. Their bordering beating a dead horse now. Not to mention 46/50t cogs just look silly. And my plus bike is 11 - 46....

    There is stuff that can be done at the crank too.

    Both ideas would be more costly but would be awesome.

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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogiKudo View Post
    Shimano has been sniffing tailpipes for a few years now. Their 1 x 11 stuff is waaaaaaay behind. Sram E tap may send them to fishing rods only.
    E tap? You mean eTAP?

    Look at the SRAM vs Shimano sales numbers and what is on new bikes and things will get back to perspective.

  38. #38
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    Thing that guy is high on something. Shimano is way ahead of Sram for electronic shifting. Di2. Available in MTB, sram eTap still isnt last I checked.

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  39. #39
    nimble biker
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    I am waiting for 12 speed

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  40. #40
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    I recently got a Scott with an XTR 2x11 and everyone keeps asking me when I'm going to 'replace' the 2x and go 1x. I thought it might be an 'upgrade' I would make but after riding it as is for a couple of months I'm in no hurry to make the change honestly...this thing is smooth as butta'

  41. #41
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    Regarding the 1x as upgrade.

    I actually am working on getting a 2x system on my Mondraker. I can live with 1x everywhere, except on the bike which I use to ride steep mountains.

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