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  1. #1
    robust, yet smooth
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    no XTR for this frame??

    I've got an about 5 yr old Trek 930 hardtail. Standard NORBA geometry, triple butted steel. According to the Trek propaganda the frame was only 3.5#. It was hung with it's original LX (where the name shows) and lower components. My buddy upgraded his bling rig and sold me his old XTR: cranks and rings ~6 yr old, cassette and BB almost new, and the chain is almost new (and was his chain, so it's only seen these rings and cogs). I also replaced the rear shifter (dying) to XT. The rear derailer is LX. The work was done by the shop.

    I rode it hard a couple of times and the cables stretched - the shop adjusted it for free. Now the rear derailer wants to throw the chain into the spokes. Not good.

    Also, the wrench (owner of the shop - I like him, if that matters) said that the frame was never intended for that agressive a group.

    What's the deal with this? Can I or can I not expect to use the XTR? It saved mucho weight, but I've not yet gotten the shifting dialed.

    Help appreciated.

    Thanks,

    -capt p

  2. #2
    all hail der Fuhrer Bush
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    true but false

    True, Trek probably never envisioned hanging xtr on that frame. Not because it wouldn't work just fine, but because folks looking for xtr are also looking for a fancier frame to go with it.
    There is absolutely no reason XTR parts shouldn't function as well on that frame as on a $3,000 6/4 ti Litespeed. None. If your shop guy is implying the parts aren't working right because they're on a fairly low-end Trek, well, he's either an idiot or he lies like Bush.

    If the rear derailleur was ok and then just started shifting off the big cog into the spokes, you almost surely got a bent derailleur hanger. Only other thing that could cause that is a low limit screw not screwed in enough to stop the derailleur ove the big cog, but in my experience, limit screws don't spontaneously change adjustment like that.

    Best thing you could do for yourself is learn how to work on your own bike, so you don't have to go running to that idiot/liar bike shop guy for every little adjustment that comes up.

  3. #3
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    If you're throwing the chain into the spokes, either the low limit screw needs adjustment or the derailleur hanger is bent. Cable stretch? LOL! That's code word for we don't know what we are doing.
    Long Live Long Rides

  4. #4
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    this much is true

    Quote Originally Posted by bulC
    Best thing you could do for yourself is learn how to work on your own bike, so you don't have to go running to that idiot/liar bike shop guy for every little adjustment that comes up.
    Your absolutely right. I'm starting to see a stand and some basic tools in my christmas future.

    Anyway, he adjusted both the high and low (in and out? - I'm still learning) stops on the rear of the derailer. So it's not that the derailer jumped out of whack, it was set out of whack. Also, when they first changed it over, they just threw on the XTR cassette and didn't adjust anything (that was a time issue and another story - but still shoddy work). And I was missing use of the biggest cog altogher.

    So I'm thinking/hoping that it's an adjustment issue, not bent hanger.

    As for the cable stretching, they did. When I took it back in he pointed out the play in it. Either they did a crap job or the new cables stretched. I can believe that, either way.

    As for the geometry/chainline issue, I'm a little more leary. Unless you fine people of the drivetrain board educate me otherwise, I'd assume that most of the drivetrain components are interchangeable (thank you Henry Ford) and that most frames are made from the same basic numbers.

    Any suggestions for how to adjust it and the best process to learn to do my own wrenching? It's a LX derailer with the the screws one over the other.

    thx,

    -capt p

  5. #5
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    The cables didn't stretch. They just didn't do anything to fully seat the cable housing/ferrules before handing it over to you. Like I said, a clearly a case of they didn't know what they were doing. You can usually see if the hanger is bent, just not typically the first thing people think of.

    To adjust your stops, start with the high stop. You should do this without the cable attached. Screw in the H stop on the back of the derailleur until the pulley lines up with the small cog. Now attach the cable and tweak the barrel adjuster until the cable is taut. Check your shifting. You may have to fine tune with a click or two +/- with the barrel adjuster. Now shift to the biggest cog (lowest gear) and screw in your L stop until it stops. Make sure you can up shift and down shift back into the lowest gear. If this is new housing, you may need to do a few hard shifts in the stand and ride it around the block to get it settled in. You will probably need to tighten the cable again after doing so. If you do, go ahead and dial the barrel adjuster back in, attach the cable and give it a few clicks until it's taut again. Shift up and down and fine tune as necessary. After they are set, you shouldn't need to touch your stops again.

    If it's properly adjusted and the hanger isn't bent, you might just have a derailleur with worn out pivots. Another common ghost shift problem is the strands of the derailleur housing pushing out but that's another problem not related to throwing the chain into the spokes.
    Long Live Long Rides

  6. #6
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    unhooking the cable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    To adjust your stops, start with the high stop. You should do this without the cable attached. Screw in the H stop on the back of the derailleur until the pulley lines up with the small cog. Now attach the cable and tweak the barrel adjuster until the cable is taut. Check your shifting. You may have to fine tune with a click or two +/- with the barrel adjuster. Now shift to the biggest cog (lowest gear) and screw in your L stop until it stops. Make sure you can up shift and down shift back into the lowest gear. If this is new housing, you may need to do a few hard shifts in the stand and ride it around the block to get it settled in. You will probably need to tighten the cable again after doing so. If you do, go ahead and dial the barrel adjuster back in, attach the cable and give it a few clicks until it's taut again. Shift up and down and fine tune as necessary. After they are set, you shouldn't need to touch your stops again..

    Unhook it from the derailer or the shifter?

    -capt p

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by capt pearl
    Unhook it from the derailer or the shifter?

    -capt p
    From the derailleur. You shouldn't need to remove the cable from the shifter until it needs to be replaced. Good luck.
    Long Live Long Rides

  8. #8
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    thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    From the derailleur. You shouldn't need to remove the cable from the shifter until it needs to be replaced. Good luck.
    thanks.

    -capt p

  9. #9
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    a fix, and a new prob

    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    From the derailleur. You shouldn't need to remove the cable from the shifter until it needs to be replaced. Good luck.
    I know, I know, you ask advise, you should take it. I was able to do a parking lot fix just now w/o removing the cable. I need to really tweek it I'm sure, but w/o a stand, this is a biatch.

    But it's shifting.

    But get this - big chainring to big cog - total lockup. Damn chain's too short! Can you just buy a link or what?

    -capt p

  10. #10
    all hail der Fuhrer Bush
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    not a problem

    I'm a proponent of running the chain a little short, as many benefits accrue from that.
    1. shift into the granny ring and the largest rear cog on the stand. (If you don't have a stand yet, you an hang the bike by the saddle nose from any available tree limb, etc.) If, in that gear combo, the upper pulley pushes the chain up against the cog causing a grindy noise you can hear and feel, the #1 fix is to crank in the B tension screw. Oftentimes however, especially if you have a short cage derailleur,or your gearing exceeds what shitmano considers standard, this doesn't fix the issue. Shortening the the chain a pair of links often does, because it pulls the cage forward so the upper pulley moves down and away from the largest cog.
    2. less chain slap. on bumpy descents, the smart rider shifts to the big ring and one of the largest rear cogs, which tightens the chain so it bounces less. but it's still useful to be in a gear that's not so low, you can't pedal over a technical spot in the trail on the descent. if your chain is plenty long, and you are in the big/big, that's a pretty low gear, sometimes too low to get any meat on the pedals when you need to oomph over a ledge on the way downhill. with a shorter chain, you would be descending on the big ring and second or third largest cog, which is about perfect for pedaling over stuff.
    3. a short chain lets you run a short cage derailleur, exceeding shitmano's recommended gear capacity for it, because you have agreed not to use the big/big gear combo. a short cage has more ground clearance so you're less likely to wreck it on a rock.
    4. short cage weighs less, if you're a weight weenie.
    5. short cage has higher chain tension for a given gear combo, never a bad thing.
    DRAWBACKS: Only one really, if you shift into the big/big (you'll probably have to force the shift to get there, but if you're like totally stoned out on shroom or something you might try it anyways) you will likely wreck something.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulC
    I'm a proponent of running the chain a little short, as many benefits accrue from that.
    The chain's too short. It will always lock at big/big. It may not be the best choice from a mechanical strain point of view, but it should at least go into it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by bulC
    DRAWBACKS: Only one really, if you shift into the big/big (you'll probably have to force the shift to get there, but if you're like totally stoned out on shroom or something you might try it anyways) you will likely wreck something.
    ... if only b/c I might be stoned out on shrooms or sumptin.

    thanks for the suggestions. how hard is it to add a link(s)?

    -capt p

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by capt pearl
    The chain's too short. It will always lock at big/big. It may not be the best choice from a mechanical strain point of view, but it should at least go into it ...
    ... if only b/c I might be stoned out on shrooms or sumptin.

    thanks for the suggestions. how hard is it to add a link(s)?

    -capt p
    What kind of chain? SRAM you would have to add a middle link and another Powerlink (although probably not recommended). Shimano you would have to add the links using their special one time use break-off pins.

    I've been riding for many years and I've found myself in the big-big more than once. It's amazing what kind of state you can get yourself in with the adrenaline/endorphin mix of mtb riding.
    Long Live Long Rides

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    What kind of chain?
    shimano. I have a new in the box SRAM 8-speed chain in the shed. Maybe it's time for a new chain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    I've been riding for many years and I've found myself in the big-big more than once. It's amazing what kind of state you can get yourself in with the adrenaline/endorphin mix of mtb riding.
    true. true.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    I've been riding for many years and I've found myself in the big-big more than once. It's amazing what kind of state you can get yourself in with the adrenaline/endorphin mix of mtb riding.
    I have this problem riding at night. Rarely am I on the big ring, but it happened more than once that I dumped a few gears w/o remembering that I was still on the big ring, b/c I couldn't see either my rings or my shift indicators.

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