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  1. #1
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    New 30g Speedbone replacement for Speedhub!

    Neil from <a href="http://www.cyclemonkey.com">Cycle Monkey</a>, in his spare time between some pretty wicked custom wheel builds, came up with a super-clean, weight-saving alternative to Rohloff's Speedbone. He was telling me about this just a few months ago, and yesterday dropped one of his first production samples into my hands.

    Neil says he hasn't got a name for it yet. I'm suggesting "Brake Bone" just to keep with the Speedbone theme, but for this post, I'll just refer to it as the "adapter."

    Now, to be fair, I don't know who should get credit for this idea, since I've seen posts and heard stories of other Speedhub users modifying their stock disc brake adapters to do something similar. However, it all derives from Rohloff's early foresight to design their OEM2 axle plate to engage directly with the rear-most IS mounting hole, which, initially, was a Speedbone alternative only if the user wasn't running a disc brake on their disc-compatible frame.

    In any case, here it is. Check it out.

    It's pretty much just an ordinary IS to post mount caliper adapter, modified with some well-placed slots.

    This means, of course, that you've got to have a 74mm PM-style caliper, ala Avid, Hayes, some Shimano, Formula, and Magura units. (Did I miss any?)

    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-01.jpg">

    ____________________

    The adapter (plus the two original mounting bolts that came with your brake) weighs in at a svelte 32g. Note that the bolts are not included.

    This replaces the original brake adapter, the Speedbone, and the two longer Rohloff-provided mounting bolts, which weigh in at 94g.

    (new adapter)
    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-02.jpg">


    (the parts being replaced)
    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-03.jpg">

    ____________________

    For those non-Speedhub owners browsing this thread, here's a shot of the Speedbone in action. Note the silver "nub" extending in towards the wheel, engaged from underneath by a plate mounted to the Speedhub.

    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-04.jpg">

    Here's the same thing (Speedbone, disc brake adapter, and axle plate), off the bike.


    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-05.jpg">

    ____________________

    Cycle Money's adapter interfaces with the axle plate like this...

    (from the right, looking out from the hub)
    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-07.jpg">


    (from the left, looking in towards the disc tab)
    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-06.jpg">

    ____________________

    It's a simple installation, but will require the axle plate to be dismounted and rotated one to two slots counterclockwise.

    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-08.jpg">

    ____________________

    Here are the before and after shots. The new adapter serves to clean up the appearance of the bike by eliminating the Speedbone.

    It also makes wheel insertion extremely intuitive, because the Speedhub's axle plate engages the adapter in roughly the same upward direction as it enters the vertical dropouts.

    The 62g saved isn't going to noticable to any but the most agro weight weenie, but <i>Hey!</i>, it's something.

    As you can see, this is going to position the external shifter box in a slightly different orientation from where it sits using the Speedbone.

    (before)
    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-09.jpg">

    (after)
    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/hub/pm-adapter-10.jpg">

    ____________________

    Neil is sourcing these in small quantities from a local machine shop, and is pricing the adapters at $35. He can be contacted through his www.CycleMonkey.com website. Rohloff is apparently on board, and will distribute them to vendors through their normal distribution channels.

    Installation was as straight-forward as you'd expect. My only cautionary note: if you currently run any washers between your frame's tabs and the disc brake adapter, as spacers (and I do, on two of my Avid-equipped bikes), you'll need to make sure those washers are small enough in diameter (~10mm O.D.) that they won't interfere with the slot in the Speedhub's axle plate.

    Fortunately, Avid includes two washers with their brakes *perfect* for this duty. You can see them in the second-to-last photo, sandwiched under the heads of the CPS/caliper mounting bolts. You'll note in the last photo, they've been replaced with larger-diameter hardware store washers; the Avid washers are now squeezed between the frame's IS tabs and Neil's adapter. (And again, this isn't a concern <i>unless you are already using washers</i> to bump in your existing caliper alignment... this new adapter conforms to IS standards, and will duplicate whatever caliper alignment you have now).
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  2. #2
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    Thanx for the idea/info.

    From the photos I see , Tell me if I'm wrong:
    If you put some thinner washers to your caliper you could have better contact surface between your caliper and disk , thus better braking.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  3. #3
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    Around 2 ounce savings with the Rohloff is nothing to pick ones nose at IMO,great stuff here Nate.
    Thanks
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  4. #4
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    Btw

    My name suggestion is "Monkey bone",I think that would be the perfect name for it because it also considers Neils business name (Cycle Monkey).
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof
    Thanx for the idea/info.

    From the photos I see , Tell me if I'm wrong:
    If you put some thinner washers to your caliper you could have better contact surface between your caliper and disk , thus better braking.
    I'm not sure I'm reading you right.

    If I were using a two-piston hydraulic unit, I would want thinner spacers, in order to center the caliper over the rotor.

    With the Avids being a single-sided actuator, they require some amount of rotor flex to engage the rotor with the inboard pad. So it is desireable to have the caliper shifted as far to the right (or, as far to the inside) as I can allow, providing the greatest amount of gap in the caliper slot to the side the rotor is flexing.

    I find that allowing a bit of rotor flex really helps taylor the modulation of this brake, and I've seen installations where the rotor has ground a good bit of material out of the caliper body due to inattentiveness to caliper spacing.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoginasser
    Around 2 ounce savings with the Rohloff is nothing to pick ones nose at...
    What's curious is whether this proves to be lighter than the OEM1 mounting option.

    The OEM1 axle plate, mated to a frame with a Speedhub-specific dropout, <i>plus</i> a forged Avid brake adapter weighs 58g (37g axle plate + 21g forged adapter). But this 58g total does not include the extra material in the extended dropout, which could easily total another 20 to 30g (wild guess).

    Neil's adapter, by comparison, totals 70g (42g axle plate + 28g machined adapter). But there is no extra frame material involved. And it arguably has a cleaner appearance.

    Either way, it's close to a wash in weight. And there is no added expense or difficulty in frame design, as conventional vertical dropouts will suffice.

    Again, I'm no weight weenie (the weight of the Speedbone was trivial to me), but analytically, the preferred OEM1 mounting method may have just lost favor for all except those with non-standard IS tabs (chainstay mounted), or with no disc tabs. Ironic, because a frame I've been waiting 8 months for -- with custom Speedhub-specific dropouts -- will be arriving in the coming weeks.

    I like your suggestion for a name.
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  7. #7
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    What's curious is whether this proves to be lighter than the OEM1 mounting option.

    The OEM1 axle plate, mated to a frame with a Speedhub-specific dropout, <i>plus</i> a forged Avid brake adapter weighs 58g (37g axle plate + 21g forged adapter). But this 58g total does not include the extra material in the extended dropout, which could easily total another 20 to 30g (wild guess).

    Neil's adapter, by comparison, totals 70g (42g axle plate + 28g machined adapter). But there is no extra frame material involved. And it arguably has a cleaner appearance.
    That was going to be my next question and you alrady answered it
    And no doubt the appearance is simpler and cleaner.

    Either way, it's close to a wash in weight. And there is no added expense or difficulty in frame design, as conventional vertical dropouts will suffice.

    Again, I'm no weight weenie (the weight of the Speedbone was trivial to me), but analytically, the preferred OEM1 mounting method may have just lost favor for all except those with non-standard IS tabs (chainstay mounted), or with no disc tabs. Ironic, because a frame I've been waiting 8 months for -- with custom Speedhub-specific dropouts -- will be arriving in the coming weeks.
    Everything happens for a perfect reason Nate.But tell me more about this frame that you have been waiting so long for,it sounds very interesting.
    I am also about to start a new frame and my builder and I (at this point) are going with the idea of using track ends with slotted disc brake caliper mounts,I have not seen anyone do this with a Rohloff before but I sent pictures of such track ends to Carsten at Rohloff Germany and he said there should not be any problem with it other than maybe more care being needed when adjusting the wheel,do you have an opinion about this Nate or if you see any conflict in using this new adapter with this set up?
    I am alittle surprised (but very glad) that Rohloff is on board as I would have thought that they would see this adapter as rendering their speed bone obsolete,not to mention the point that you brought up about the OEM1 that I did not consider.But hey,what works works!

    I like your suggestion for a name.
    Thank you It would be kool if he ends up choosing it.
    Last edited by yoginasser; 08-04-2007 at 03:20 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoginasser
    ...tell me more about this frame that you have been waiting so long for,it sounds very interesting.
    </font>

    The frame is a Mrazek Boh FX 29"er. <a href="http://www.mrazek.com">Mrazek</a> is a relatively small Cezch company that builds their frames in-house, but not necessarily to spec. I wasn't exactly looking for a replacement for my Buzz Bomb back in October when I first saw the Boh, but I immediately fell for the look and began talking to their US rep, Jeff, about customizing the dropouts for the Speedhub.

    The company has been around since the early 90's and their frames have received some great writeups in various mags an in the MTBR reviews section. My biggest hesitation is switching from a sliding dropout to an EBB, but Mrazek tells me they've had no complaints about their setup, and my fingers are crossed.

    <img src="http://www.mrazek.com/BOH%20FX%2029erLg.jpg">


    Quote Originally Posted by yoginasser
    I am also about to start a new frame and my builder and I have at this point are going with the idea of using track ends with slotted disc brake caliper mounts,I have not seen anyone do this with a Rohloff before but I sent pictures of such track ends to Carsten at Rohloff Germany and he said there should not be any problem with it other than maybe more care being needed when adjusting the wheel,do you have an opinion about this Nate or if you see any conflict in using this new adapter with this set up?
    No, no experience with either. But I'm sure Carsten wouldn't steer you wrong. You're going with the Touring axle (bolt-on) Speedhub, I presume?

    Is the disc adapter slotted only at one end, and anchored at the other? I wonder if a steel insert would be in order to allow it to be torqued tightly, or it that isn't a concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by yoginasser
    I am alittle surprised (but very glad) that Rohloff is on board as I would have thought that they would see this adapter as rendering their speed bone obsolete,not to mention the point that you brought up about the OEM1 that I did not consider.But hey,what works works!
    I didn't ask. Rohloff is smart, though. Anything to add appeal to their product, whether this adapter or a click shifter, will positively impact their hub sales. Plus, it gets them out of the whole liability waiver deal with the Speedbone, which they initially seemed very serious about. And because their dropout drawings are openly available, I don't believe they are collecting any fees or royalties for frames produced for the OEM1 solution, so it's probably no great loss if that dwindles in popularity.
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  9. #9
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    The frame is a Mrazek Boh FX 29"er. <a href="http://www.mrazek.com">Mrazek</a> is a relatively small Cezch company that builds their frames in-house, but not necessarily to spec. I wasn't exactly looking for a replacement for my Buzz Bomb back in October when I first saw the Boh, but I immediately fell for the look and began talking to their US rep, Jeff, about customizing the dropouts for the Speedhub.

    The company has been around since the early 90's and their frames have received some great writeups in various mags an in the MTBR reviews section. My biggest hesitation is switching from a sliding dropout to an EBB, but Mrazek tells me they've had no complaints about their setup, and my fingers are crossed.

    <img src="http://www.mrazek.com/BOH%20FX%2029erLg.jpg">
    I`m a fan Mrazek,excellent choice Nate!Not having a funky looking derailleur hanging in the back should accentuate the beauty of that frame too.


    No, no experience with either. But I'm sure Carsten wouldn't steer you wrong. You're going with the Touring axle (bolt-on) Speedhub, I presume?
    TS DB actually,but with a beefy pitlock skewer.

    Is the disc adapter slotted only at one end, and anchored at the other?
    Undecided as of yet,but that would be the easiest for wheel removal as far as I can tell.I have heard from someone on this forum that has managed to make this same set up work (minus the rohloff) with wavy rotors in a way where there is no need for loosening any caliper adapter bolts and just pulling the wheel straight back when removing the wheel just by aligning the caliper with the bottom of the wave of the rotor when installing the wheel (I hope I didn`t confuse everyone with that explanation),it would be nice if the person who has done that chimes in as I am not %100 clear on this myself.The Rohloff set up would require loosening the bolt between the faceplate and the adapter,but it would be nice if there is no further adjustment needed.
    I wonder if a steel insert would be in order to allow it to be torqued tightly, or it that isn't a concern.
    I was visualizing a washer of some type or perhaps slotting the caliper mount at such an angle (not sure what would be best yet) that would not lend to the bolt loosening.Any Ideas?

    I didn't ask. Rohloff is smart, though. Anything to add appeal to their product, whether this adapter or a click shifter, will positively impact their hub sales. Plus, it gets them out of the whole liability waiver deal with the Speedbone, which they initially seemed very serious about. And because their dropout drawings are openly available, I don't believe they are collecting any fees or royalties for frames produced for the OEM1 solution, so it's probably no great loss if that dwindles in popularity.
    I see,makes sense.
    Any info on the new Rohloff or Nicolai shifters yet?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoginasser
    Any info on the new Rohloff or Nicolai shifters yet?
    The news is "no new news." Thomas says there's been lots of interest, maybe in '08.

    Is Nicolai making the click shifters? A few months back, I looked for a reference, couldn't find squat.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    The news is "no new news." Thomas says there's been lots of interest, maybe in '08.

    Is Nicolai making the click shifters? A few months back, I looked for a reference, couldn't find squat.
    I spoke to them at the end of last year and at that time they said that they should have a Rohloff trigger shifter ready for EuroBike,looks like it`s time to call them again on Monday I will keep you guys posted.
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  12. #12
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    I've contacted the boss at Cycle Monkey in an effort to purchase one of these new 'bones' myself.


    Hopefully, I will be able to try one out on my RIP 9.


    R.
    It is inevitable ...

  13. #13
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    That's a really neat solution for all you retrofit guys.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  14. #14
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    Guys, thanks for the name suggestion and for the enthusiasm. I think there is no other option than Monkey Bone.

    My first hub went on a custom cross bike a few years ago and the frame builder I worked with wasn't keen on sliding dropouts so I used an ECBB and standard vertical dropout. I always thought the Speedbone setup looked a bit bulky. Now that most brake companies have gone to post mount (and the hub has gained in popularity) it seemed reasonable to have a custom bracket made. I'll get it photo'd and up on my website sometime soon.

    Nate, thanks for the detailed photos showing exactly how it installs!

    Neil
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  15. #15
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    Guys, thanks for the name suggestion and for the enthusiasm. I think there is no other option than Monkey Bone.
    Joy!!!Do I win anything

    My first hub went on a custom cross bike a few years ago and the frame builder I worked with wasn't keen on sliding dropouts so I used an ECBB and standard vertical dropout. I always thought the Speedbone setup looked a bit bulky. Now that most brake companies have gone to post mount (and the hub has gained in popularity) it seemed reasonable to have a custom bracket made. I'll get it photo'd and up on my website sometime soon.

    Nate, thanks for the detailed photos showing exactly how it installs!

    Neil
    Thank you for making it,great idea and beautiful job.

    BTW:I was really digging this sweet lacing pattern that you have on your site

    rohlofflace.jpg

    I have not seen it before and I was wondering how it compares in strengths to the average lacing patter or if there are drawbacks?
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    Hmmm, I'll have to think about a prize.

    The 2 leading, 2 trailing pattern has worked fine for me on the dirt and on the road. I have several wheels with this pattern under several people and no complaints. I haven't gotten around to building a wheel stiffness jig but I have not seen any negative issues in use. I'm just coming up on 1 year for the oldest pair though.

    From a practical standpoint, the standard 2x, 3x, or 4x (depending on number of spokes) patterns are strongest and will last the longest. With the high quality of spokes and rims available today, I think wheels can be built in more unique patterns and still provide an acceptable service life.

    If you look at the way the spokes are grouped at the rim on the 2 leading / 2 trailing pattern, 4 spokes come from one side, then 4 from the other. This means that as the spokes pass through the bottom of the wheel and the tension relaxes, the rim will shift to one side a bit, becoming more prone to tacoing in this direction should a substantial side impact occur. The alternating spokes on a normal lacing reduce this and provide more even support. As the number of spokes decreases or the rim diameter increases, the gaps between spokes increase and the same thing occurs. Bontrager and other wheels have closely paired spokes, then a gap with no spokes, then another close pair to reduce the rim deflection. This leaves unsupported sections of rim for vertical impact, but that's another issue.

    Soooo, it's not for everyone but it does add a unique touch to your bike - and a nice photo!

    Neil
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  17. #17
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    Hmmm, I'll have to think about a prize.

    The 2 leading, 2 trailing pattern has worked fine for me on the dirt and on the road. I have several wheels with this pattern under several people and no complaints. I haven't gotten around to building a wheel stiffness jig but I have not seen any negative issues in use. I'm just coming up on 1 year for the oldest pair though.

    From a practical standpoint, the standard 2x, 3x, or 4x (depending on number of spokes) patterns are strongest and will last the longest. With the high quality of spokes and rims available today, I think wheels can be built in more unique patterns and still provide an acceptable service life.

    If you look at the way the spokes are grouped at the rim on the 2 leading / 2 trailing pattern, 4 spokes come from one side, then 4 from the other. This means that as the spokes pass through the bottom of the wheel and the tension relaxes, the rim will shift to one side a bit, becoming more prone to tacoing in this direction should a substantial side impact occur. The alternating spokes on a normal lacing reduce this and provide more even support. As the number of spokes decreases or the rim diameter increases, the gaps between spokes increase and the same thing occurs. Bontrager and other wheels have closely paired spokes, then a gap with no spokes, then another close pair to reduce the rim deflection. This leaves unsupported sections of rim for vertical impact, but that's another issue.

    Soooo, it's not for everyone but it does add a unique touch to your bike - and a nice photo!

    Neil
    Thank you for all that great info,I have too many questions about all the kool services and stuff on your site so I guess that I will just call on Monday morning.
    Yogi
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyWrench
    Soooo, it's not for everyone but it does add a unique touch to your bike - and a nice photo!
    So Neil, uh, nice wheel and all, but I have to ask... was that taken at Point Isabel?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    Plus, it gets them out of the whole liability waiver deal with the Speedbone, which they initially seemed very serious about.
    I'm not sure this really makes any difference, really. Very similar "unusual" forces are being applied to the disc mount with or without the Speedbone, so any concerns are still valid.

    Anyway, looks pretty neat . Better than my hacked up job anyway:
    The thing I like about it besides looking better and it being more simple is that it makes getting the rear wheel on and off somewhat easier since the axle and disc mount point are more inline than with the Speedbone.

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    Close, but too far north. We set up the photo shoot in the lower parking lot of Golden Gate Fields. Figured it would be a cool back ground for the locals.

    Neil
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timbo
    I'm not sure this really makes any difference, really. Very similar "unusual" forces are being applied to the disc mount with or without the Speedbone, so any concerns are still valid.
    Except that it's not Rohloff''s product, hence, no longer their worry. Not that I've heard of any frame failures due to the Speedbone.

    So you're the guy! A little black paint on there, and I'd never have known. In fact, I'll bet your forged adapter & spacer weighs a few grams less than Neil's machined Monkey Bone.
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  22. #22
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    "Monkey Bone" ... yes, that name fits really well...

    Excellent work and a very good idea ... for us Rohloff Speedhub users...


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    Well, cool beans, as of this morning, "Monkey Bone" is officially Googleable!

    Unfortunately, if you just type in "Monkey Bone", you'll get 86 pages of results pointing to a supposedly horrible Brendon Fraser movie.

    But qualify it by adding "Rohloff" or "Speedhub" to the query, and you've got a #1 hit!

    http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...ff+monkey+bone

    What's surprising is Google-fighting "Rohloff Monkey Bone" vs. "Rohloff Speedbone".

    http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...ff+monkey+bone
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    Well, cool beans, as of this morning, "Monkey Bone" is officially Googleable!

    Unfortunately, if you just type in "Monkey Bone", you'll get 86 pages of results pointing to a supposedly horrible Brendon Fraser movie.

    But qualify it by adding "Rohloff" or "Speedhub" to the query, and you've got a #1 hit!

    http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...ff+monkey+bone

    What's surprising is Google-fighting "Rohloff Monkey Bone" vs. "Rohloff Speedbone".

    http://www.googlefight.com/index.php...ff+monkey+bone
    When I did a search on monkey bone I found this mildly amusing definition in urban dictionary http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=monkey+bone
    I called Nicolai today and spoke to Vincent,he said that they have the prototype Rohloff trigger shifter up and running but they have not finished testing it and working out the bugs yet.Its new ETA is spring 2008
    But....they have developed their own grip shifter that is ready to go and being anodized at this very time which will premiere along with the new G-Boxx 2 at the 2007 Eurobike at the end of this month in Germany,it distinguishes its self from the standard Rohloff shifter by using some kind of magnetic internal mechanism that supposedly has some crazy life expectancy like 20 or so years It`s also said to be much smoother in shifting.
    Any of you guys going to Eurobike this year?
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  25. #25
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    Sorry Nate, but the 'bone has been known to break bikes...

    I've know, as I've had three frame failures, and I know of two others in my immediate circle that have done the same while using a bone.
    I've gone back to the torque arm, as those bones put a LOT of stress into the frame, and while it's an elegant solution to using the (to some) unsightly torque arm, beware, if you do enough riding, there may be tears in your future...
    But it doesn't stop me from using the Rohloff, it's just something to be aware of.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryceb
    I've know, as I've had three frame failures, and I know of two others in my immediate circle that have done the same while using a bone.
    I've gone back to the torque arm, as those bones put a LOT of stress into the frame, and while it's an elegant solution to using the (to some) unsightly torque arm, beware, if you do enough riding, there may be tears in your future...
    But it doesn't stop me from using the Rohloff, it's just something to be aware of.

    I was beginning to think I'm the only one that prefers the torque arm over the speedbone.

    The things I prefer about the toque arm:

    1. It comes with the Rohloff so it doesn't add cost
    2. Considering the amount of force a disc brake puts on a seatstay, it's nice to be able to isolate this from the torque the Rohloff is puts out.
    3. The torque arm looks kind of retro - kin to the coaster brakes of my youth
    4. The torque arm does a pretty good job of protecting the lower majority of a 6" rotor from impact.
    5. In my application (IronHorse MKIII) the position of the external click box is higher while using the OEM1 plate, providing a little more clearance for trail obstacles.

    All is not perfect, however. The one thing I'm not too fond of are the cheesey hose clamps that are included in the kit. Kind of a generic and cheap looking. I'm still using them but I'm in the process of building an aluminum mount block that will replace the one that comes in the kit.

    Speedbone, Monkeybone, Torque arm...Sweet hub all the same!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryceb
    I've know, as I've had three frame failures, and I know of two others in my immediate circle that have done the same while using a bone.
    I've gone back to the torque arm, as those bones put a LOT of stress into the frame, and while it's an elegant solution to using the (to some) unsightly torque arm, beware, if you do enough riding, there may be tears in your future...
    But it doesn't stop me from using the Rohloff, it's just something to be aware of.
    I have all sorts of questions, because I haven't even seen a picture posted of one of these failures.

    Did the failed tabs meet Rohloff's specs? I can't locate a thickness requirement, though I recall it was 6 or 7mm. They call for a 6mm wall width around the mounting hole, and that the tabs be machined from / same piece as the dropout (not welded separately to the chainstay).

    I'm curious what the failure looked like. Was it from clockwise (forward) rotation? Did it break the tubing, or crack a weld? Were they all similar looking?

    I'm not questioning your claim, just very interested in seeing what happened. I took Rohloff's liability waiver, and all of their cautions, when I first used a Speedbone on an NRS. Stopped paying attention after that -- must have figured if I couldn't break an NRS, I'd be OK on everything else. I'd love to see a photo of a failure if you have one to share.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    I have all sorts of questions, because I haven't even seen a picture posted of one of these failures.

    Did the failed tabs meet Rohloff's specs? I can't locate a thickness requirement, though I recall it was 6 or 7mm. They call for a 6mm wall width around the mounting hole, and that the tabs be machined from / same piece as the dropout (not welded separately to the chainstay).

    I'm curious what the failure looked like. Was it from clockwise (forward) rotation? Did it break the tubing, or crack a weld? Were they all similar looking?

    I'm not questioning your claim, just very interested in seeing what happened. I took Rohloff's liability waiver, and all of their cautions, when I first used a Speedbone on an NRS. Stopped paying attention after that -- must have figured if I couldn't break an NRS, I'd be OK on everything else. I'd love to see a photo of a failure if you have one to share.
    Hi Nate. all of the failures were of a similar nature. Two were on alloy FS 29'ers and one on a steel hardtail 29'er. I don't want to mention brands here as it is unfair to the manufacturers, but the hardtail was a custom and the builder was specifically asked to build to Rohloffs specs, but didn't and the bike eventually broke. He repaired the frame for me and followed Rohloffs specs, but a little to late!
    The first of the FS alloy frames was sold to me on the belief of the supplier that the Rohloff would be fine, but wasn't, and the second (different manufacturer) meet a similar fate, after telling the builder of my woes and I had his absolute belief and guarrantee that there wouldn't be an issue. That frame broke after seven months, and he has subseqently re-modelled the chainstay. A sister bike bought at the same time broke in exactly the same place after two years of riding, but he doesn't do as much as I, or is as hard on gear apparantly.
    we ride a lot of very steep stuff and it seems that the braking forces together with the Rohloff torque input, and quite possibly the extra stresses impossed by the larger wheel amplifying the torque enhances the problem. You get a situation where braking and torque forces are push-pulling against each other, and we all know aluminium doesn't handle those sort of forces very well.
    Here are some pix for you.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Wow, all very impressive, especially photo #1 which appears to be a steel frame using a Rohloff-specific dropout (no Speedbone involved, I assume?).

    So far I've had no frame failures to speak of. Going back to 2001, between my wife and I, I've had the Speedhub installed on the following list of aluminum frames:

    '01 Marin Mt. Vision w/ Speedbone
    '01 Van Dessel Buzz Bomb w/ Rohloff dropouts
    '01 Giant NRS w/ Speedbone
    '03 Iron Horse Hollowpoint w/ SB
    '05 Iron Horse MkIII w/ SB
    '05 Iron Horse Azure w/ SB
    '07 Niner RIP9 w/ SB, now Monkey Bone
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    impressive...

    Quote: So far I've had no frame failures to speak of. Going back to 2001, between my wife and I, I've had the Speedhub installed on the following list of aluminum frames:

    '01 Marin Mt. Vision w/ Speedbone
    '01 Van Dessel Buzz Bomb w/ Rohloff dropouts
    '01 Giant NRS w/ Speedbone
    '03 Iron Horse Hollowpoint w/ SB
    '05 Iron Horse MkIII w/ SB
    '05 Iron Horse Azure w/ SB
    '07 Niner RIP9 w/ SB, now Monkey Bone



    Nate, I first put a Rohloff on a K2 Razorback in early 2001and my next Rohloff arrived on a Van Dessel Buzz Bomb (snap!)
    The list that followed was: Curtlo 29 HT, 29' Asylum FS, Ventana El Capitan FS which I've now had for 2.3 years.
    The steel bike was built with the Rohloff slot, but I was actually using the speedbone when it broke as I'd been swapping the Rohloff wheel out between it and the Asylum depending on the mood of the day. The orginal build of the steel bike wasn't up to Rohloffs spec at all, and I think this was the first 29er and first Rohloff specific bike Doug had built at the time, and I don't think he'd seen a Rohloff at that point, let alone fully understood the stresses they put through the frame. We had to weld a bracket onto the frame and extend the slot here (in nz), after discussions with him when it became apparant that what he'd done for me wasn't going to work.
    Full credit to all three manufacturers though, they all stood by the their bikes, Speedgoat refunded in full, Doug did a beautifully rebuild, and Ventana instantly replaced the swingarms, despite bad timing (for them, they were packing for a show or something when it broke but still found time to fabricate a new swingarm.
    I have absolutely nothing bad to say about any of these manufacturers, and the fact that I live in New Zealand, and they still all rushed to fix the problem when others may have took the view that New Zealand is far enough away to ignore, speaks volumes for all three, and I have no hesititation in recommending any of them, they are all top people/companies to deal with.
    As I've intimated in a previous post, we do a lot of very steep climbing here, and I suspect that the big wheels add to the problem by effectively adding more leverage hence torque to the equation. I do run my gearing a bit lower than I should be all the same, with 34:16, but if there is going to be a parting of the metals, it should be in the hub, not the frame!, so I don't really think that is a factor with overstressing the frame but thought I'd better mention it.

    However....., (!), if it were me, I'd be running a torque arm on the Niner. We're getting a few running around here and I've had a good look at them as well and I've spent time riding them, and despite the fact that you'd have to articulate the torque arm (wouldn't be hard) to make it work, I'd be wary of doing it any other way.
    It may take six months before anything broke or it may take two years, but the forces are still going into the frame and have no other option but to stress the metal and one day something must happen in my opinion.

    I note that most of your mounts have been 26ers (bar the Buzz Bomb, which is a great bike, and mine has been riden non-stop for six years now by just two riders,(me and the guy I sold it to) and it's never given a problem! Simple is best!), and I suspect that it is hard to stress a 26" frame to the point of breakage as easily as a 29er. I have another friend who broke his 26" frame after 18 months of riding (7 days a week riding) in a similar manner to my pix, so it is not impossible.

    When I sheared my frames, they all without exception just snapped with no warnings, creakings or odd behaviour. It was quite impressive acutally, especially the steel frame which let go with quite an impressive bang.

    Anyway, I don't want to rain on anyones parade, and I've ridden the Rip and it is a beautiful bike, it impressed the hell out of me, but I'd personally would be very cautious about running a speedbone on it. It's not the bikes fault, it's just they way the hub works, and that gearing generates a huge amount of torque which has to go somewhere.

    My other hub is on my partners Karate Monkey, and I use a speedbone on it. I know for a fact (no disrespect honey) that she'll never stress the frame to the point of breakage like I've been prone to doing, and I'm happy to have that bike configured in this manner. It makes for a heavy monkey, but a reliable one that she threatens me with violence if I ever try to alter in anyway.

    I run my El Capitan with the torque arm, despite them now offering a Rohloff ready slotted swingarm, which I think is still prone to the same problem.

    But I'm not an engineer, so this post doesn't carry a lot of weight behind it other than I know what works for me and what doesn't. I hope that it may stop someone else having the problems I encountered, but at the end of the day, what the hell, if you do snap a chainstay every now and then, it's not the end of the world, they are replaceable, and they only seem to snap when you are climbing so it's not like they are life threatening!

    Good luck with Niner and Rohloff, I reckon that would be a great combination, just as it is with the El Capitan. The Cap with Nevegals both ends (it's winter here and I like the grip), gravity dropper and a Maverick comes in at about 34.5lb which sounds heavy I know, but it always seems to go further, climb better and never have a mechanical, which more than compensates for the constant and unrelenting derision me and my big wheeled, whirry-planetary geared bike seems to be a target for. However, having three frames snap under me due to the Rohloff does give them plenty of ammo to play with, and God forbid I ever break a fourth frame!

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    Hey Nate, you should have emailed me about this! Maybe John and I should both get them...

    I'm using my Speedbone with the horizontal dropouts on my Vassago. As long as I don't need to change a flat... I think I'll be okay. I should post a picture and get your opinion...

    Oh yeah, John uses a 185 (or is it 180) rear rotor on his Magura Lousie FR brakes. Is the "Monkey Bone" only available for 160mm rotors???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding
    Oh yeah, John uses a 185 (or is it 180) rear rotor on his Magura Lousie FR brakes. Is the "Monkey Bone" only available for 160mm rotors???
    Yeah, only 160 so far. But email Neil at Cycle Monkey. I think he's testing the water for other sizes. Based on the number of 160mm Speedhub rotors sold, compared to other sizes, I bet he wasn't counting on much demand for 180 or 203.
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    Hmmm...interesting..

    That's interesting about the frame breakages...

    Now you have got me thinking....



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    bryceb:

    Did you ever talk to Rohloff about the frame breakages? I'd be curious to hear what they have to say about them.

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    No,

    ...didn't see the point really. I'd found it hard enough in the past to get a reply out of the Germans as they never seemed to answer their emails, and the local dealers seem to come and go, or refer you to their agent in Australia, who are even less helpful.
    Thomas in the US is a good dude, but I've never discussed this with him.
    I only use the Rohloff in winter now anyway, and I've always liked the torque arm so I have no problem with using it. I thought the Speedbone might have been a cleaner option function wise, but in reality there is little in it. Shame I went through all that hassle only to end up back where I started though....
    Still, lesson learned, for me anyway....

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rs3o
    bryceb:

    Did you ever talk to Rohloff about the frame breakages? I'd be curious to hear what they have to say about them.
    None of the frames were up to Rohloff specs,what would anyone say?
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoginasser
    None of the frames were up to Rohloff specs,what would anyone say?
    I wasn't saying that the OP should talk to Rohloff and say "Wahh! your hub broke my frames!" More to say "I know my frames weren't up to the Rohloff spec, but did you guys know that this is what can happen when a Rohloff is paired with a 29" wheel?"(assuming that is, in fact, the issue). I've never heard of a Rohloff breaking a frame (much less three frames) and figured the manufacturer would want to know about it. They could then pass that info on to other consumers, as in "your frame damn well better be up to spec or this <insert scary broken frame pics> could happen to you."

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rs3o
    I wasn't saying that the OP should talk to Rohloff and say "Wahh! your hub broke my frames!" More to say "I know my frames weren't up to the Rohloff spec, but did you guys know that this is what can happen when a Rohloff is paired with a 29" wheel?"(assuming that is, in fact, the issue). I've never heard of a Rohloff breaking a frame (much less three frames) and figured the manufacturer would want to know about it. They could then pass that info on to other consumers, as in "your frame damn well better be up to spec or this <insert scary broken frame pics> could happen to you."
    I see
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    Turner Flux Rohloff with Monkeybone

    Neil sent me a Monkeybone for my conversion of the Flux to the Rohloff Speedhub (I'm in the UK).

    Really neat bit of kit, you can hardly see it, so much better than the Speedbone. Wheel is easy to locate when fixing a puncture etc.

    Just had to put a washer between the frame and the Monkeybone to space the XT disc caliper out slightly.

    Here's an image of the left hand drop out, with the Monkeybone in place of the Speedbone, but its difficult to see as it is so neat.


    More images of the Flux here.
    http://my.opera.com/nicolap99/albums/show.dml?id=350917

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    Neil from <a href="http://www.cyclemonkey.com">Cycle Monkey</a>, in his spare time between some pretty wicked custom wheel builds, came up with a super-clean, weight-saving alternative to Rohloff's Speedbone. He was telling me about this just a few months ago, and yesterday dropped one of his first production samples into my hands.

    blah blah photos blah...
    I like it. Too bad the weight savings won't be noticeable on my 30-lb hardtail, but at least this will take care of the Dremel mod on my Speedbone:



    This has been working fine since the help in this thread, but I'm worried that if I ever get out on a long ride again, that the 'bone will break when I get to the farthest point on the ride from the car.

    I hope that the Monkey Bone would be more tolerant of the On-One's slider dropout/slot brake mounts than the current speedbone setup. I haven't bothered to have a long, hard look at it (as you can probably tell, I'm pretty lazy), but the OEM2 plate doesn't engage the pin on the Speedbone as well as I'd like it to on portions of the dropout travel and corresponding brake fiddling.

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    Should be no fitment issues, as long as your axle position meets IS specs in relation to the disc tabs.

    Neil's<i> Monkey Bone </i>is doing nothing different than the OEM2 axle plate, which is the basis for the Speedbone.

    In fact, the final position of the Speedbone nub is based entirely on correct orientation of the IS tabs to the axle, so I'm surprised you're seeing any kind of alignment problem. Whatever the case, eliminating the Speedbone removes one variable from the equation, so any fit issues you're having *should* be improved.

    <img src="http://www.booboodog.net/images/speedhub-oem2-mounting.jpg">
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    Interesting stuff folks...both the Monkeybone and the detail on the frame breakages...thanks for sharing.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate

    In fact, the final position of the Speedbone nub is based entirely on correct orientation of the IS tabs to the axle, so I'm surprised you're seeing any kind of alignment problem. Whatever the case, eliminating the Speedbone removes one variable from the equation, so any fit issues you're having *should* be improved.
    I agree that the OEM2-Speedbone relationship is dependent on the disc tabs to the axle, and that's wherein the problem lies on my On-One. The brake slots on my 06 Inbred aren't the new linear slots, they're the ones that move the caliper through some silly arc. If the photo that I'd included in the previous post were visible (sorry, haven't fixed it yet. Told you I'm lazy) you could see what I mean. At any rate, I just picked up a Voodoo Dambala with the disc tabs integrated into the sliding dropout, so hopefully this will be mo' betta. Frame should show up soon, I'll be catching up with Neil to get one.

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