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  1. #1
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    Interesting POLL - XTR, XT, XO, X9.......

    Front page takes a while to load for me on dial-up so I don't really visit there much so I also don't see the polls etc. Got a PM about something and attached was a link to the latest poll - which I checked out. Then I decided to browse over all the polls and found one on which Rear Derailer you were running and the results are very interesting.

    Considering all the "I hate Shimano", "Shitmano" etc, etc that's posted on this site I was amazed to view the results of the poll (8385) when I voted that said that 30% were running XT, 22% XTR, 12% XO, 10% X9, 7% LX, Other Shimano 7%, 4% I ride SS, 4% X7, 1% Other SRAM, 1% Saint, 1% Not Sure..

    If you haven't voted yet go vote, 'cause it's so interesting with all the Shimano hating and bashing that it turns out that 67% are still using Shimano products, while only 27% are using SRAM.

    http://www.mtbr.com/polls/polls.asp?id=1103
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  2. #2
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    I haven't used SRAM, but I've had Shimano on all my bikes. Seems to me that Shimano does what its supposed to do, and has always worked for me. Like it or not, they're the 900 pound gorilla on the block.

  3. #3
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    Never had a problem with shimano.

    I run :

    Hone Cranks
    Shimano HG53 Chain
    Xt Cassette
    Deore Shifter
    Ultegra Derailleur
    Xt Hubs

  4. #4
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Shimano is the biggest OEM ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx
    Front page takes a while to load for me on dial-up so I don't really visit there much so I also don't see the polls etc. Got a PM about something and attached was a link to the latest poll - which I checked out. Then I decided to browse over all the polls and found one on which Rear Derailer you were running and the results are very interesting.

    Considering all the "I hate Shimano", "Shitmano" etc, etc that's posted on this site I was amazed to view the results of the poll (8385) when I voted that said that 30% were running XT, 22% XTR, 12% XO, 10% X9, 7% LX, Other Shimano 7%, 4% I ride SS, 4% X7, 1% Other SRAM, 1% Saint, 1% Not Sure..

    If you haven't voted yet go vote, 'cause it's so interesting with all the Shimano hating and bashing that it turns out that 67% are still using Shimano products, while only 27% are using SRAM.

    http://www.mtbr.com/polls/polls.asp?id=1103
    Everyone has ridden Shimano. Not everyone has been introduced to SRAM.

    There is a LOT more legacy Shimano stuff out there since until recently pretty much all bikes shipped with stock Shimano components. The poll says nothing of what those who have used both prefer. It is non-applicable to the issue. It is a bit like conducting a presidential preference poll at an oil executive meeting. It's kinda a biased sample.

  5. #5
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    I took X9/X0 off of my bike for XTR. It just works better for me. Not for everyone, but for me.

  6. #6
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    I had a mix of the "new" and "old" XTR stuff on my old Stumpjumer, and was impressed with the shifting, though not the strength. It shifted much cleaner than the X9/X0 mixture I now have on my 575. However, it only took one fairly nasty wreck to destroy the shifters and rear deraileur. The XT stuff I had used before had held up to much more of a beating.
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  7. #7
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    my Seven is spec'd out in XTR...

  8. #8
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    Since "we're" getting so defensive, I thought I'd clarify what the poll says.......What rear derailer are you using NOW? not what did your bike come with, what did you switch it too? So if somoenone had either and switched they'd vote for what they're running now, which would indicate their preference - easy up sram ladd

    It's about what you're riding now and I my case I had Shimano and stayed w/ Shimano 'cause they work and cost a crap load less. I did however have RF cranks and was the best thing when I bought the XT HT2's.

    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    Everyone has ridden Shimano. Not everyone has been introduced to SRAM.

    There is a LOT more legacy Shimano stuff out there since until recently pretty much all bikes shipped with stock Shimano components. The poll says nothing of what those who have used both prefer. It is non-applicable to the issue. It is a bit like conducting a presidential preference poll at an oil executive meeting. It's kinda a biased sample.
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  9. #9
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Yes you are correct ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx
    Since "we're" getting so defensive, I thought I'd clarify what the poll says.......What rear derailer are you using NOW? not what did your bike come with, what did you switch it too? So if somoenone had either and switched they'd vote for what they're running now, which would indicate their preference - easy up sram ladd

    It's about what you're riding now and I my case I had Shimano and stayed w/ Shimano 'cause they work and cost a crap load less. I did however have RF cranks and was the best thing when I bought the XT HT2's.

    Yes your facts are correct but your reasoning is flaw. SRAM is an insurgent in the marketplace. Most bikes come stock with Shimano so it's not surprising that most people are still riding Shimano.

    I am not a critic of Shimano. I happen to be very fond of their cranks and hubs. And I certainly think they make fine shifters and derailleurs. I just happen to think SRAM makes better shifters and derailleurs.

    You might as well take a general poll on what kind of beer a given person drinks. Given the massive volume that Budweiser and Miller puts out, most people will comment that they drink one of the two. That doesn't mean Budweiser or Miller is better.

  10. #10
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    the numbers don't lie, you just see sram advocates voicing their sramness more

  11. #11
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    You might as well take a general poll on what kind of beer a given person drinks. Given the massive volume that Budweiser and Miller puts out, most people will comment that they drink one of the two. That doesn't mean Budweiser or Miller is better.
    I think that sums it up nicely.

    There is no qualifier on what makes something definitively better in this case. Each to their own. Personally I run Shimano stuff ( mostly XT ) as in the past its been fine and at the moment its perfectly fine. I upgrade parts when i wear them out . . . so normally its a bit here and a bit there. so a complete drivetrain jump to SRAM is simply not justifiable.

    I certainly dont feel that its limiting me in any manner, so a complete change is not worth it.

    If my bike setup came with SRAM to begin with, i'd probably stay with SRAM as again, it would do the job fine and not be a limiting factor of my riding.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    Yes your facts are correct but your reasoning is flaw. SRAM is an insurgent in the marketplace. Most bikes come stock with Shimano so it's not surprising that most people are still riding Shimano.

    I am not a critic of Shimano. I happen to be very fond of their cranks and hubs. And I certainly think they make fine shifters and derailleurs. I just happen to think SRAM makes better shifters and derailleurs.

    You might as well take a general poll on what kind of beer a given person drinks. Given the massive volume that Budweiser and Miller puts out, most people will comment that they drink one of the two. That doesn't mean Budweiser or Miller is better.
    It is also a poll about what riders are using, not what is "best."

    I use to run $12 Shimano 200GS rear derailleurs because they did the job and were cheap. I never considered them the best available, just good enough.
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  13. #13
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    The highest volume, most heavily marketed stuff will always come out top in these kind of polls. It doesn't mean they are the best. I prefer X9 to XT, but it's not that big a deal. I currently run X9 rear mech, X9 shifters, XT front mech and XT drivetrain with a Sram chain!
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  14. #14
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    i prefer SRAM.

    and since there are more Cannondales on the road (ie, more people buy Cannondales) than Turners does not imply that Cannondales are better than Turners......

  15. #15
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    I will note that I see just as many bikes in the upper ranks of mountain bikes lately spec'd with Sram. That was the last 2 years. This year I seem to see more Shimano. I attribute all of that to marketing by shimano and sram. There is really no other explanation. The parts mean less than the price to the bike mfgs I am sure. If it works and they get it for less, they won't start caring.

  16. #16
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    Until recently, I've always run LX and XT. This is what my bikes have predominantly come with, they worked just fine for a good price, and I was hesitant to switch brands when Shimano got the job done. I didn't necessarily think that the LX and XT (or Shimano in general) was the best components. Like everyone else has said, what you use isn't necessarily what's the best.

    For my recent Flux build, I went with SRAM for a lot of my drivetrain components because I liked how they felt on the bikes I had demoed and because I felt that Shimano's top end offering (XTR) wasn't durable enough for my uses and purposes. X.0 gave me the same or better performance as XTR, but also added a lot in the durability department.

  17. #17
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    Exactly - I run XT derailers 'cause for the price I've paid for them they do the job well and seem to hold up to some good abuse. They're not the best or lightest, but they do what they're sposed to for what I can afford or at least see as reasonable for a part that's prob not gona last too long if you ride very bad terrain and smack it all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    It is also a poll about what riders are using, not what is "best."

    I use to run $12 Shimano 200GS rear derailleurs because they did the job and were cheap. I never considered them the best available, just good enough.
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  18. #18
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    I'll never have Shimano as long as they persist with rapid rise. I just don't like it.
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  19. #19
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    i use shimano stuff on my bike

    but the sram stuff feels nice.

    The stormtrooper picture is milk funny!

  20. #20
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    The only shimano parts on my singles are xtr rim brakes i've had for a long time, a skewer and a BB.

    I think i voted "other in the poll". But the next bike i build if its not a single will be Sram or rohloff.

    When i was running gears i always had a shimano drivetrain but i wanted to switch to sram stuff but the cost of getting new rear der and rear mech were not cost effective.

  21. #21
    Duckin' Fonuts.
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    What are deraileurs?

  22. #22
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    You know this seems to be a lot of people's attitude towards the RR stuff and maybe it's 'cause I hadn't been ridding MTB too long when they introduced it and I got it, BUT I totally love it. It makes so much sense not having to apply pressure when you are trying to go into an easier gear. Also having the shifters work the same for front and rear also makes so much sense - know when I got my Tranc e/w the RR I was like" Damn this is how it's sposed to be"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob
    I'll never have Shimano as long as they persist with rapid rise. I just don't like it.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob
    I'll never have Shimano as long as they persist with rapid rise. I just don't like it.
    High-normal derailleurs are in the '07 lineup.
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  24. #24
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    SRAM is the Macintosh of the bike world. I've always ran Shimano and I like it. I wouldn't avoid a bike with a nice SRAM setup, but SRAM tends to have a loud, vocal minority who often get fanatical about their components.

  25. #25
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    My first mountainbike came with a Shimano XT rear derailleur which was flawless and gave me no reason to change. My current ride is a boutique bike which I built up with full XTR, just because I wanted to. It all works as advertised and for a long time. Maybe SRAM make a good product but no way is it going to be better. With all the resources available to Shimano, they are able to research and improve their products more than anyone.

    I just had a look at two examples of pricing for rear derailleurs:

    Speedgoat. XTR $158.00 / X.O $235.00
    Alfred E Bike XTR $122.00 / X.O $248.00

    Why on earth would I want to buy SRAM? I'll bet that even the new 2007 XTR is not as pricey as X.O. A derailleur is not rocket science. It just has to be made well so that it lasts and any glitches designed out.

    Ronnie.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLud

    For my recent Flux build, I went with SRAM for a lot of my drivetrain components because I liked how they felt on the bikes I had demoed and because I felt that Shimano's top end offering (XTR) wasn't durable enough for my uses and purposes. X.0 gave me the same or better performance as XTR, but also added a lot in the durability department.
    No offense but I think you are falling into the typical generalization of XTR is for racing therefore its lighter and more fragile. With some exceptions XTR parts are the most durable of the bunch. They're usually all metal and fully forged instead of cast + plastic or composite like other groups.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    No offense but I think you are falling into the typical generalization of XTR is for racing therefore its lighter and more fragile. With some exceptions XTR parts are the most durable of the bunch. They're usually all metal and fully forged instead of cast + plastic or composite like other groups.
    I'm not making the generalization that just because XTR is lighter, it is more fragile. If that was the case, I wouldn't be using carbon bars or some other of my components.

    I am making a generalization, however, based on the experience of only one of my riding buddies. He runs all XTR, and has broken his cranks twice in the last year, his cassette once, and his rear derailleur once on what seemed like a light log hit (granted you can't always expect a component to hold up under a direct hit, but it's nice when it does). Because he's lighter than I am, I've just stayed away. So yeah, I'm generalizing based on only one rider's experience, but many riders don't have much first hand experience, and base such purchasing decisions on even less.
    Last edited by TLud; 07-03-2006 at 06:48 AM.

  28. #28
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    The only Shimano parts you'll find on my ride are my XT front D and XT hubs. The XT hubs have failed on me 3 times. The front derailler is.. well.. just a front derailler. It does what it's supposed to do. After numerous Shimano parts failed on my ride I converted to SRAM and have been happy since. The only Shimano stuff I buy is stuff with a price tag that is simply too good to pass up. That sort of mentality (in the case of my hubs anyway) has left me stranded on a trail more than once. Once I bent an axle on the XT hub, and twice the pawls inside the XT rear hub broke off and left me pushing my bike home.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie
    My first mountainbike came with a Shimano XT rear derailleur which was flawless and gave me no reason to change. My current ride is a boutique bike which I built up with full XTR, just because I wanted to. It all works as advertised and for a long time. Maybe SRAM make a good product but no way is it going to be better. With all the resources available to Shimano, they are able to research and improve their products more than anyone.

    I just had a look at two examples of pricing for rear derailleurs:

    Speedgoat. XTR $158.00 / X.O $235.00
    Alfred E Bike XTR $122.00 / X.O $248.00

    Why on earth would I want to buy SRAM? I'll bet that even the new 2007 XTR is not as pricey as X.O. A derailleur is not rocket science. It just has to be made well so that it lasts and any glitches designed out.

    Ronnie.
    I agree on the value for money argument. X0 is not worth the massive price hike above X9. It even makes XTR look like good value!! I still prefer X9 to XT though. It's worth it just to get rid of the silly looping XT rear mech cable!
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    SRAM is the Macintosh of the bike world. I've always ran Shimano and I like it. I wouldn't avoid a bike with a nice SRAM setup, but SRAM tends to have a loud, vocal minority who often get fanatical about their components.
    I guess that's why I've got both a Mac and Sram!
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktrailmonster
    I guess that's why I've got both a Mac and Sram!
    Hehe, me too.

    One of my bikes has XT circa 2002. The other has X9 circa 2005. I think I prefer the X9 just but it's so close it's not funny. Both are solid systems. There's one area where the Sram stuff stands out though. On the X9 bike there's very little rattle and clunk from the chain as the rear derailleur tensions it up so much. The Sram stuff looks nicer and seems to be more solidly constructed but that's only based on appearance, not on hard evidence.

  32. #32
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    My take is this... Internet junkies tend to be very opinionated and very vocal... whether those opinions are based on experience or just regurgitating what they've read. There have no doubt been countless cyclists that have been well served with XT and XTR components while SRAM is the new kid on the block. That's both a good thing and a bad thing. It means they've been able step back and do things as they think they can best be done. It also means that they will be knocked by MANY folks that have bee well served with said Shimano components for years and years.

    All my bikes have Shimano components though the first experience I had with SRAM was a customized Specialized with X7 gear and was quite impressed. As someone above mentioned, shifting was much quieter than my XT and XTR derailleurs. I was impressed enough that perhaps my next new bike may have SRAM... But until then, I'm utterly happy with my XT and XTR groups. Matter of fact, I picked up a used bike with all Exage components and though the crankset is kind of ratty, the derailleurs work great.

    Overall, I think that most riders will be served quite nicely with XT, XTR, X7, X9 or X0 components.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie
    Maybe SRAM make a good product but no way is it going to be better. With all the resources available to Shimano, they are able to research and improve their products more than anyone.



    Ronnie.
    This is an inaccurate assumtion of corporate mentality. In general, smaller companies will put more effort into quality because they know it will take a truly superior product to get the customers off of the tried and true brand ("shimano has always worked good for me, so why change"). Many brands tend to fall off in the quality department once they are the established standard, how many of you are viewing this with Mozilla Firefox because you were sick of the stupid microsoft browser that came with your computer?

    Once a large coporation establishes a customer base with their innovation and quality, they start looking to cost cutting and marketing to increase their margins.

    I am not saying that shimano is doing this (my drivetrain is half and half shim sram). I'm just saying that it is illogical to suggest that a bigger company means a better product. Smaller companies will often have a higher worker/product ratio which I liken to a teacher/student ratio in terms of getting quality results.

    Sram folks are deffinetely a vocal minority but I bet that if everyone had ridden both, the poll results would be close to even as all components eventually come down to a personal preference, (with the exception of the Chris King NoThreadset on my christmas list.)

    The fact that the actuation ratio and trigger mechanisms are so different almost makes this an apples to orages issue as once you are comfortable with one configuration, a different one will probably just piss you off.

    The first rd upgrade I ever did was to a sram x-9 with shifters, I love it and will always go sram rd because I know it works good for me. When I had to go to a top swing fd (therefore shimano) I thought it worked much better than my x-gen therefore I'll probably always go shimano for the front.

    This started out as a two line post about coporate mentality?!?!?!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumanchuchu

    Sram folks are deffinetely a vocal minority but I bet that if everyone had ridden both, the poll results would be close to even as all components eventually come down to a personal preference...!

    WORD. This hits it on the head. I currently own both and have ridden both and both systems work well in various configurations (twisters, triggers, levers, rapid, normal, 1:1, etc.). I have my personal and preferred combination of those mentioned; but the great thing that SRAM did was trickle, then later force a choice into the marketplace and give us more possibilities to fit individual tastes, and that's a good thing for ALL of us.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumanchuchu
    I am not saying that shimano is doing this (my drivetrain is half and half shim sram). I'm just saying that it is illogical to suggest that a bigger company means a better product. Smaller companies will often have a higher worker/product ratio which I liken to a teacher/student ratio in terms of getting quality results.
    Well, time and time again the shimano stuff is the stuff that lasts the longest. I work on rapid fire shifters from a decade ago, and with a little carb cleaner to work out the gum, they work perfectly. Lots of SRAM products have bit the dust over the years, including the first few generations of their derailers, and the latest generation may be better, but still could suffer from the same general problem (derailer can't rotate forward as with shimano, which can create higher amounts of stress and break at the bolt, knuckle or pivot).

    You also don't seem to be aware of the fact that Sram simply took most of the Sachs products, and rebadged them as their own. This goes for the derailers, chains, shifters, and so on.

    After having ridden SRAM and shimano for many years, I've come to the conclusion that the shimano products are usually more reliable and thought out. This doesn't mean that there aren't advantages to the sram stuff or that someone wouldn't prefer sram due to one of these advantages, but the amount of R and D that shimano does seems to always be adaquate and there usually aren't huge issues with the products. For the amount of products that shimano makes, their R and D and quality control is pretty amazing.
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  36. #36
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Duhh ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    ...
    You also don't seem to be aware of the fact that Sram simply took most of the Sachs products, and rebadged them as their own. This goes for the derailers, chains, shifters, and so on.
    ...
    .
    Duhhh,

    Are you now going to tell me that Avid really makes SRAM brakes and Truvativ really makes SRAM cranks now? Typically this is what happens when one company buys out another. Products often are rebadged.

    For a little more business insight, I will point out that companies actually make products for one another. Very few of the frames you see are actually manufactured inside facilities owned by the companies that will actually have their product names painted on them. It's called outsourcing and it goes on all over the place. Giant and Merida (majority owner of Specialized) makes most of the aluminum frames produced. Don't believe what Trek says, the only make their carbon fiber products. If Kenda makes Pyramid inner tubes, why should you be so concerned about the lineage of SRAM derailleurs?

    Now, I would like you to make a side by side comparison of the Sachs products to the modern SRAM products and tell me that these are the same. Obviously there has been a lot of change in 7 years. Those are SRAM products now.

    Yes there are tradeoffs to be had. If you do not want your chain jumping around like a trampoline artist, you would choose a stiffer derailleur that keeps things in place. A Shimano derailleur may very well last longer (though I don't accept this) but that is just another year or two of fiddling with a barrel adjuster every ride to get the ghost shifting to go away. No thank you, I'll stick with my SRAM derailleurs.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi


    Now, I would like you to make a side by side comparison of the Sachs products to the modern SRAM products and tell me that these are the same. Obviously there has been a lot of change in 7 years. Those are SRAM products now.
    There's a lot less change in the last 7 years than you think. The derailleurs are a good example. While Sram has made many changes to their derailleurs over the last few years all of them have been in materials and construction. Even the latest crop of their derailleurs are mechanically unchanged from the ~1998 Sram/Sachs 9.0 derailleur. Peformance has not changed at all which is why ever since then I roll my eyes when people claimed what a huge improvement over the 9.0 the X.0 was when it came out. I had a lot of experience with the 9.0's and they performed identically to the X.0 because it was the same derailleur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    If you do not want your chain jumping around like a trampoline artist, you would choose a stiffer derailleur that keeps things in place. A Shimano derailleur may very well last longer (though I don't accept this) but that is just another year or two of fiddling with a barrel adjuster every ride to get the ghost shifting to go away. No thank you, I'll stick with my SRAM derailleurs.
    Could you please explain why it is a shimano derailleur goes out of adjustment? Because you see, derailleurs only go out of adjustment when a derailleur hanger bends, a problem with the cables or the barrel adjuster is moved out of position A bent hanger and cable problems will affect any kind of derailleur the same and Shimano's barrel adjusters are pretty damn firm in staying in place. So lets hear it. Does shimano's metal change proportions dramatically with temperature affecting the distance it moves to cause this ghost shifting?

  39. #39
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    Please define ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    There's a lot less change in the last 7 years than you think. The derailleurs are a good example. While Sram has made many changes to their derailleurs over the last few years all of them have been in materials and construction. Even the latest crop of their derailleurs are mechanically unchanged from the ~1998 Sram/Sachs 9.0 derailleur. Peformance has not changed at all which is why ever since then I roll my eyes when people claimed what a huge improvement over the 9.0 the X.0 was when it came out. I had a lot of experience with the 9.0's and they performed identically to the X.0 because it was the same derailleur.

    Please define derailleur performance the way you value it. The way I look at it a derailleurs job is to accurately move the chain from one cog to another and tension the chain so that it does not jump off the chainrings.

    What do I mean by a derailleur going out of adjustment? What, you've never had to fiddle with a barrel adjuster to get your derailleur to stop ratteling? Cables stretch with tension. They contract with cold and expand with heat. So do cable housings. Often they get dirt and other nasties in them that cause the cable to bind. Sometimes the cables do not wind exactly the same way in the shifters causing error. In these cases, Shimanos 2:1 actuation ratio doubles any error in cable length caused by these factors. So an error of 2mm in cable length will result in a 4mm error in the derailleur position. With SRAM's 1:1 actuation ratio (or Sachs if you'd like to date your attribution), 2mm in cable error will result in 2mm of derailleur error.

    You are correct regarding error in frame alignment. A bent hanger would affect a SRAM or Shimano derailleur of the same cog count (9 speed vs 8 speed) equally.

    This is not a (Ford vs Chevy) argument for me. I think Shimano makes great products and I prefer their cranks over Truvativ (SRAM). I prefer Shimano's hubs over everybody else's. The observation I've had was that 4 year old SRAM shifting seemed to work better than brand new Shimano stuff. I don't use "X-series" shifters. I use old ESP 7.0 gripshifts. They require adjustment every couple of months vs every other day with Shimano.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    Shimanos 2:1 actuation ratio doubles any error in cable length caused by these factors. So an error of 2mm in cable length will result in a 4mm error in the derailleur position. With SRAM's 1:1 actuation ratio (or Sachs if you'd like to date your attribution), 2mm in cable error will result in 2mm of derailleur error.
    You do realize that shimano doesn't use a 2:1 actuation ratio, and sram doesn't use a 1:1 ratio.

    Think hard, which company came up with those numbers....?
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    IIRC it's 1.1 and 1.7, which is still quite a significant difference and well worth arguing over.

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    i was explaining this same topic earlier last month to someone as well the 1:1 that sram claims isn't 100% accurate in terms or 1mm of pull at the shifter = 1mm of pull at the derailleur.

    The concept sounds cool on paper that since there are smaller pull ratio's one would think that smaller misaliments matter less. (so your margin for error in maufacturing or wear/tear matter less). In the real world, releasing or pulling more cable per shift does not guarrantee percision, its a system that can accurately release (any ratio for that matter) that make a system work well. Shimano has used steel indexing which tends to last and remain accurate longer. I'm not 100% sure what sram uses now to do its indexing but I would hope they have made the move over from plastic indexing.

    The "1:1" is technically better for sram since smaller adjustments to the barrel adjustments or just cable strech from either worn cables or improperly setup housing thats too short for a full suspension bike makes for a less dramatic effect on the rear derailleur. Sram should be easier to setup for this reason.

    The additional factor thats interesting is the older sram stuff where they had the special lube if you recall since alot of cable has to be stored due to a 1:1 pull over the shimano 2:1 for those of you who remember sram in the early days.

    Hopefully the newer sram stuff will stick around and continue to give users differnt options and keep the marking and technology where it should be going. i just wish sram would use less plastic. They are however top notch when it comes to replacing parts. Ride what you want to ride, learn how to setup your bike before compaining.

  43. #43
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    Kindly impart us the exact numbers ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    You do realize that shimano doesn't use a 2:1 actuation ratio, and sram doesn't use a 1:1 ratio.

    Think hard, which company came up with those numbers....?
    Since you are so knowledgable, would you please inform us of the exact ratios between cable pull and derailleur for SRAM and Shimano derailleur systems.

    The concept may sound cool on paper, but it works really well in practice. It works well because all the folks who have switched and STAYED with SRAM have noticed that they don't have to fuss with barrel adjusters anymore.

    Regarding the wear of parts. Wear is a function of pressure, abrasion and the relative hardness of two different materials. How does plastic wear? It wears quite well when it is lubricated and contacting other plastic parts or smooth metal parts. How does metal wear? I think you'll find that if you introduce a little abrasion that metal wears quite rapidly when subjected to loads (this is why you have to replace your chains (which are made of metal)).

    Regarding the origin of "ESP 1:1" why do people keep insisting this is a compensation for Gripshift. Gripshift made Gripshift. Sachs made the derailleurs. How can the change in actuation be a compensation for longer cable pull when the original Gripshifters were made for Shimano derailleurs before SRAM even MADE derailleurs?

    The SRAM bashers are now grasping at straws here. Their arguments are shifting (hah punny) and the thin veneer of logical cohesion is falling apart.

    Look there is nothing wrong with Shimano shifters. It just so happens that those who have shifted away from the largest OEM provider in the industry largely agree that their SRAM shifting works better. If SRAM did not produce a reliable, high performance product they would not have risen from a maker of an aftermarket throttle style shifter for Shimano derailleurs to the #2 producer of MTB equipment (soon to be #1). Shimano had COMPLETE domination of the MTB shifting market and SRAM has steadily chipped away at their aftermarket share and now they are chopping up large portions of OEM equipment sales.

    There is a REASON for this. People just plain like SRAM. They like hopping on their bike without having to fiddle with their barrel adjusters. They like being able to ride without the chain slapping their chainstay and foot and jumping off the chainrings because Shimano derailleurs have such low tension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    Since you are so knowledgable, would you please inform us of the exact ratios between cable pull and derailleur for SRAM and Shimano derailleur systems.
    Shimano is exactly 1.7 to 1, and sram is around 1.1 to 1.2 to 1.

    I didn't have to fiddle with my barrel adjusters today.
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  45. #45
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    Thanks for the info

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Shimano is exactly 1.7 to 1, and sram is around 1.1 to 1.2 to 1.

    I didn't have to fiddle with my barrel adjusters today.
    Thanks for the info. We can indict SRAM marketing for being imprecise, they did in fact round correctly. By 1.1 to 1.2, do you mean about 1.15?

    The concept is still the same to me. Assuming SRAM is 1.15:1 you get a system that is about 67% more fault tolerant to cable error.

    I'm glad your Shimano systems work for you. Those of use who have gone to SRAM have found that we had to constantly adjust the barrels and now we don't touch them for months at a time.

    Ooooh, I got a joke.
    How come SRAM rear derailleurs do not have built in barrel adjuster? Because they don't NEED them! ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi

    Regarding the origin of "ESP 1:1" why do people keep insisting this is a compensation for Gripshift. Gripshift made Gripshift. Sachs made the derailleurs. How can the change in actuation be a compensation for longer cable pull when the original Gripshifters were made for Shimano derailleurs before SRAM even MADE derailleurs?
    Thats exactly the point. The original 1.7:1 gripshifters never worked quite as well as shimano's shifters on 1.7:1 derailleurs, regardless of them being Sachs or Shimano. Sram and Sachs were partners and working together long before Sachs became a permanent part of them. They obviously had to work together as it would be pointless for Sram to makes shifters with an actuation ratio nobody makes a derailleur for.

    The nature of the gripshift design just didn't lend itself too well to that ratio. Shimano uses a steel indexed spring loaded system which functions almost completely independently of user input. You can't over click or underclick the cable pull on a shimano shifter. Its all mechanically controlled. The trigger just releases a mehanical system which will consitantly release the same exact amount of cable. There is no way to fudge this up. The push lever can be over shifted but once its released it unspools any extra cable and falls exactly into place. Its a small self contained shifting mechanism with very precise detents and a small range of motion. Its a system that works perfectly fine with that pull ratio because it was specifically DESIGNED to work with those ratio's. Gripshifters were not designed to work with 1.7:1. They were made that way because it was the standard at the time. They have a much larger range of motion that is not always consistant because of the way the user iterfaces with it. There no real mechanism to it. You just rotate the barrel to tug on the cable. The amount of pressure and the way you interact with the barrel have a direct effect on cable pull. That means if you overshift or undershift and pinch the barrel with your grip the shift is off. The friction of the two large counter rotating parts is greater and the detent system simply can't be as accurate because of the larger range of movement. The solution is to decrease the cable pull ratio so these small imperfections in barrel positioning have a less pronounced effect on the shifter accuracy.

  47. #47
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    Old news ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    Thats exactly the point. The original 1.7:1 gripshifters never worked quite as well as shimano's shifters on 1.7:1 derailleurs, regardless of them being Sachs or Shimano. Sram and Sachs were partners and working together long before Sachs became a permanent part of them. They obviously had to work together as it would be pointless for Sram to makes shifters with an actuation ratio nobody makes a derailleur for.

    The nature of the gripshift design just didn't lend itself too well to that ratio. Shimano uses a steel indexed spring loaded system which functions almost completely independently of user input. You can't over click or underclick the cable pull on a shimano shifter. Its all mechanically controlled. The trigger just releases a mehanical system which will consitantly release the same exact amount of cable. There is no way to fudge this up. The push lever can be over shifted but once its released it unspools any extra cable and falls exactly into place. Its a small self contained shifting mechanism with very precise detents and a small range of motion. Its a system that works perfectly fine with that pull ratio because it was specifically DESIGNED to work with those ratio's. Gripshifters were not designed to work with 1.7:1. They were made that way because it was the standard at the time. They have a much larger range of motion that is not always consistant because of the way the user iterfaces with it. There no real mechanism to it. You just rotate the barrel to tug on the cable. The amount of pressure and the way you interact with the barrel have a direct effect on cable pull. That means if you overshift or undershift and pinch the barrel with your grip the shift is off. The friction of the two large counter rotating parts is greater and the detent system simply can't be as accurate because of the larger range of movement. The solution is to decrease the cable pull ratio so these small imperfections in barrel positioning have a less pronounced effect on the shifter accuracy.
    My 10 year old 1.7:1 Gripshifters shift just as crappily as the Alivio crap that came on my last mountain bike. There is no doubt that companies lay eggs sometimes. Yet, SRAM makes great Gripshifters for Shimano derailleurs these days. They also make great triggers from their own ESP derailleurs. Obviously they have found other solutions for the cable pull issues from both sides of the equation. No doubt Shimano has also found a way to decrease the radius of the shifting mechanism in a throttle shifter in their RevoShift systems.

    There is more than one way to skin a cat. SRAM and Sachs may well have chosen that actuation ratio to make a simpler mechanism with cheaper parts work better. In the world of engineering, thats called good design. But it is obvious that they have since pursued alternate strategies. These are NOT the Gripshifters of ten years ago (though mine work just fine today (as good as they ever did)). Why do people keep bringing this up when the topic of conversation topic was cable pull problems that inevitably develop from riding in harsh conditions?

    Finally, if you don't think that there is error in Shimano indexing itself, you're kidding yourself. Of course there are small variations in the way the cable pull and lays every time the mechanism operates. No doubt those tolerances are lower on XTR than Alivio. But, iIt's a question of tolerances. And until you can cite those tolerances numerically for both systems, I don't think you should be playing mister technical. This is especially relevant when the real topic at hand is whether to buy modern SRAM equipment as opposed to introductory products from a startup company 15 years ago. The way your reasoning is structured you are erecting a strawman. Don't tell me what the slop in SRAM's shifters were 10 years ago. Tell me what they are today and reconcile that with the observations of SRAM users that they don't have to adjust there SRAM ESP shifters nearly as much as the Shimano's that they abandoned.

    Find me a cyclist who has ONLY ridden on SRAM and I will be impressed. Every SRAM user has also used Shimano. But there are lots of Shimano users who behave like a Chevy fanatic who has never owned a Ford.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi

    What do I mean by a derailleur going out of adjustment? What, you've never had to fiddle with a barrel adjuster to get your derailleur to stop ratteling? Cables stretch with tension. They contract with cold and expand with heat. So do cable housings. Often they get dirt and other nasties in them that cause the cable to bind. Sometimes the cables do not wind exactly the same way in the shifters causing error. In these cases, Shimanos 2:1 actuation ratio doubles any error in cable length caused by these factors. So an error of 2mm in cable length will result in a 4mm error in the derailleur position. With SRAM's 1:1 actuation ratio (or Sachs if you'd like to date your attribution), 2mm in cable error will result in 2mm of derailleur error.
    Thats the thing you don't understand, I DON'T have to be fiddling with Shimano barrel adjusters. None of my ridding buddies have to be fiddling with them. I install my cables and housing, give them a solid tug to compress the ferrules and housing into place. Adjust every thing and I ride. Thats it. I've gone through full seasons of racing more than 10races with the only maintenance my bike gets is a hose blasting to wash off mud and chain lubing before a ride. Sure, **** happens sometimes, hangers gent bent stuff happens and people need to fiddle with their barrels but give me a break, I've seen countless numbers of Sram riders struggling with barrel adjusters and shift popping at races and rides as much as any other rider. Like I said derrailleurs themselves don't go out of adjustment. Derailleurs are completely dependant on outside factors for adjustment. Many of these factors like hangers affect both the same such as a hanger. As explained above the cable spooling is more dependant on the mechanisms ability to spool just the right amount of cable than its actually pull ratio in relation to the derailleur. Shimano could come out with a 1:1 1:2 or 1:2 system and it would not be anymore accurate as long as the cable release is what it's supposed to be. Cable stretch is actually more of a myth than an issue. Cables are usually prestretched and will not change in length measurably during their life. The derailleur force is far too small for this. What is mistaken for cable stretch is the housing and ferrules seating into place. In other words the housing length shrinks. Finally and the only place were the pull ratio might have a very small difference is in extreme cases of cable neglect where the derailleur spring is no longer capable of overcomming the cable resistance by a good enough amount. Under what would be considered reasonable to mediocre maintenance this is still not much of an issue. Your housing has to be in REALLY excessively bad shape for that to really become a significant factor. Chains cassettes and derrailleurs have a certain amount of slop tolerance so they can keep working quite well if correctly adjusted to begin with.

    The bottom line is that in the end comparing Sram to Shimano parts is really splitting hairs. You can argue to death the differences between them but the fact is they are both products that have reached a peak were the difference between them is practically impossible to differentiate in any substantial way. Sram has a few goodies Shimano doesn't have as does Shimano have some Sram doesn't.

  49. #49
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    #s ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    ...
    Many of these factors like hangers affect both the same such as a hanger. As explained above the cable spooling is more dependant on the mechanisms ability to spool just the right amount of cable than its actually pull ratio in relation to the derailleur. Shimano could come out with a 1:1 1:2 or 1:2 system and it would not be anymore accurate as long as the cable release is what it's supposed to be.
    Well, I asked for #s. What is the error in spooling for a Shimano system vs SRAM system. You went through all that bother about saying that SRAM products from 15 years ago having imprecise spooling and never addressed the topic in regards to modern systems.

    This is an important topic because if modern SRAM systems are "sloppy" as you are implying by constructing your straw man, than any advantage SRAM would have in the lower actuation ratio may be negated.

    I'm glad that you don't have to adjust your barrels. I'm doubly glad that you apparently ride in a climate that allows you to go an entire season without changing your cables and housings (as you do not touch those adjusters through a season). This has not been the observation of the people buying SRAM and staying with SRAM.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi

    Find me a cyclist who has ONLY ridden on SRAM and I will be impressed. Every SRAM user has also used Shimano. But there are lots of Shimano users who behave like a Chevy fanatic who has never owned a Ford.
    You overgeneralize too much and it shows. Sram has been around long enough for there to be people to have started out with them and never tried anything else. There are enough new Sram eqiupped bikes for this. Second there are plenty of people who go back to shimano. You just hear the most vocal minority and you are the one who fanatically chooses to only listen to that.
    The funny thing is I actually started with Sram and gripshift. Rode it for a few years. For the longest time I avoided shimano products. When I finally tried rapidfire with shimano derailleurs it was like a revelation. Much more comfortable shifting system and beautiful fluid smooth shifting. It was not the fact that it shifted any better it just worked as great. and felt way better to me. I really started to appreciate how well shimano and how much thught Shimano puts even into the smallest details. The argument here is not how much superior Shimano is. Its how overhyped Sram is. Its making mountains out of molehills over such minor differences.

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