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  1. #1
    the catalan connection
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    I wonder what Shitmano is going to come up with this time...

    ...in order to keep the new LX integrated cranks as incompatible as possible with XTs and XTRs
    Any news?
    "Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordly evidence of the fact." George Elliot

  2. #2
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    the other way around...

    from what I have read in magazines, they will be compatible... so I can hopefully get cheaper bearing when the ones I have need replacement..



    Quote Originally Posted by What&son
    ...in order to keep the new LX integrated cranks as incompatible as possible with XTs and XTRs
    Any news?

  3. #3
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    Yes, agreed, whatever "built in disadvantages" the LX cranks offer will come as a complete package and, as pointed out in a previous post, there is a more substantial gap in weight between LX & XT (reportedly a 90g difference).

    The past LX were as good as XT and could be made as light as XT by using an XT BB.

    This time around I'm sure the LX quality is there but it'll be impossible to make up the weight difference (if someone is so inclined) -- no purposeful (or spiteful) incompatabilities necessary on Shimano's part.

  4. #4
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    So don't buy it if it bothers you so much. Not sure I understand what the big deal is about. I've been running an lx crankset for 4 years with no problems. When it craps out I'll buy whatever and not be the least concerned with whether or not it's compatible. Heck the 1:1 SHAM stuff is only compatible with it's 1:1 components. Why not carp about that????

  5. #5
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by What&son
    ...in order to keep the new LX integrated cranks as incompatible as possible with XTs and XTRs
    Any news?

    I dunno... but until '04 (or late '03??) XT and LX were completely the same (almost) except for the disc capability of the XT. And that was a good and only reason for going XT instead of LX. In fact, I would take before the Deore group instead of the LX... Deore was heavy but it worked wonders... you could keep the hubs and go for the XT drivetrain. At least I skipped the LX 'cause it made no much sense not for compatibility.

    Now, they revamped the LX to make it similar to the XT... and yet some people will prefer the new Hone as it will be a bit more heavy but more durable...

    Shitmano is missing the point a bit with the LX... but it's nice to have that price step in the middle of the Deore and the XT (but it will rival the Hone).
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  6. #6
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    Go SRAM!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by What&son
    ...in order to keep the new LX integrated cranks as incompatible as possible with XTs and XTRs
    Any news?
    Everything is mix and match. It's cheaper and it shifts better.

    Shitmano is going to have trouble keeping SRAM from chewing into their OEM supply contracts now that Trek is shipping some it's bikes stock with SRAM 1:1 shifting. If Shimano actually does away with quality "normal rise" derailleurs, I think you'll see a whole bunch of manufacturers switching to SRAM in rebellion.

    Lets recognize the whole "integrated" concept for what it is. It's an effort to keep SRAM, Compagnolo and Suntour from eating away at their market share in the aftermarket parts area.

  7. #7
    the catalan connection
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    No big deal, really...

    Quote Originally Posted by fredł
    So don't buy it if it bothers you so much. Not sure I understand what the big deal is about. I've been running an lx crankset for 4 years with no problems. When it craps out I'll buy whatever and not be the least concerned with whether or not it's compatible. Heck the 1:1 SHAM stuff is only compatible with it's 1:1 components. Why not carp about that????
    It really doesn´t bother me so much, I sleep well at night..
    I just think Shimango deserves some critics. And not becouse they can´t do things better (this wouldn´t be fair) but right the opposite, they can.I think their stuff would be much better whithout all the comercial strategy load they carry.
    Man, I´m buying a crankset, not voting a president...why do I have to stick to it for the next four years? what if time to replace comes, for example, for a chainring ? I want to look a little wider than LX LX LX ...That´s the point.Or maybe I would like to fit a lighter bb...who knows.
    About your crankset, be sure that everything craps out simultaneously, becouse you won´t be able to fit a momentary cheaper replacement as you wait the rest to crap out.
    "Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordly evidence of the fact." George Elliot

  8. #8
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    Everything is mix and match. It's cheaper and it shifts better.

    Shitmano is going to have trouble keeping SRAM from chewing into their OEM supply contracts now that Trek is shipping some it's bikes stock with SRAM 1:1 shifting. If Shimano actually does away with quality "normal rise" derailleurs, I think you'll see a whole bunch of manufacturers switching to SRAM in rebellion.


    I have noticed that Marin has been offering Sram Cassettes on some of their stuff, on each class of bikes it seems to be on the upper end models. Gary Fisher, Jamis, GT, Giant, Cannondale and others are also offering this on mid to higher end bikes. Maybe the bike companies are kind of getting set up so that they can swing with what ever comes along. All SRAM or Shimano who knows. I know that the cassette doesn’t really make that much difference, but maybe its a sign of what’s to come if Shitmano keeps their crap up. I know that SRAM is working its way into the Shimano territory pretty quickly. I still use all Shimano stuff, but have been eyeballing the SRAM eye candy pretty heavy lately. I like the fact that SRAM components run a little cheaper. Maybe the bike companies are beginning to like the same thing about them.
    ( just my observations and opinions)
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  9. #9
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDawg
    I have noticed that Marin has been offering Sram Cassettes on some of their stuff, on each class of bikes it seems to be on the upper end models. Gary Fisher, Jamis, GT, Giant, Cannondale and others are also offering this on mid to higher end bikes. Maybe the bike companies are kind of getting set up so that they can swing with what ever comes along. All SRAM or Shimano who knows. I know that the cassette doesn’t really make that much difference, but maybe its a sign of what’s to come if Shitmano keeps their crap up. I know that SRAM is working its way into the Shimano territory pretty quickly. I still use all Shimano stuff, but have been eyeballing the SRAM eye candy pretty heavy lately. I like the fact that SRAM components run a little cheaper. Maybe the bike companies are beginning to like the same thing about them.
    ( just my observations and opinions)

    In fact, lots of manufacturers are stocking SRAM cassettes on their bikes (Giant, just to give a BIG example). SRAM cassettes are a bit lighter and shift equal than their Shitmano counterparts... and waaayy cheaper. Kudos to SRAM... My next drivetrain will be a X.7 (exception of the FD which is not sold yet in Mexico)
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  10. #10
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    LX Integrated crank

    Are these on the market yet? If so where can I find them?
    Thanks

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by plazcek
    Are these on the market yet? If so where can I find them?
    Thanks
    According to some they're showing up in local shops, but Google and Froogle searches for 2005 LX, FC-M580, M580, 580 LX, etc., prove fruitless.

  12. #12
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    I think the most logical way of delineating the LX crankset from the XT and XTR parts is simply by:

    1. Integrated BB a la XT & XTR (meaning bearing cup interchangeability)
    2. Solid, non-HollowTech crankarms bulked up to XT-level failure strength (meaning increased mass)
    3. Three stamped aluminum rings

    The more problematic step down would be the one from LX to Deore, since it is entirely fathomable that the new integrated BB design might be cheaper to produce than Octalink. Maybe the cost drop can come from de-idling the old shop machines obsoleted by the move to the integrated BB design.

    I dunno, the SRAM PG-990 11-34 cassette I bought (and eventually gave to a friend) seemed a little heavier than current XT (M760/750), not to mention XTR. And I also didn't like the huge step between the largest cog and second-largest cog (note that this is not an issue with the 11-32 gearing, as the only difference between it and the 11-34 is the big cog - the rest is the same) I never used it so I can't say anything either way about performance. I can say, however, that they are significantly cheaper to acquire at the distributor level over XT, making them a superior value in both gearings. That said, I'd go with the SRAM in 11-32 and still opt for XT in 11-34.

  13. #13
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  14. #14
    the catalan connection
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    Nice article, plazcek

    ...well, nice until he says that you don´t need to see the new V- brakes becouse are just a "stick with one pivot at one end a cable at the other and a pad somewhere in between"...I assume that means they don´t feature parallel push anymore
    I wouldn ´t like a description of a steel hardtail from this guy for sure.

    I would love to see the non-drive side of those cranks
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by What&son
    ...well, nice until he says that you don´t need to see the new V- brakes becouse are just a "stick with one pivot at one end a cable at the other and a pad somewhere in between"...I assume that means they don´t feature parallel push anymore
    I translated that as, "Shimano finally figured out that their Parallel Push "Technology" is a hokey gimmick that does nothing to improve performance, only add slop and weight to an otherwise simple mechanism." Did I interpret that incorrectly?

  16. #16
    the catalan connection
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedüb Nate
    I translated that as, "Shimano finally figured out that their Parallel Push "Technology" is a hokey gimmick that does nothing to improve performance, only add slop and weight to an otherwise simple mechanism." Did I interpret that incorrectly?
    That´s a rather optimistic interpretation... isn´t it ?
    Oh well, you know, we V-brake lovers are getting a bit paranoďc these days; I think he is basically supporting V-brake evolution
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  17. #17
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed?e
    I translated that as, "Shimano finally figured out that their Parallel Push "Technology" is a hokey gimmick that does nothing to improve performance, only add slop and weight to an otherwise simple mechanism." Did I interpret that incorrectly?
    Spot on. If you want to deal with brake maintenance you'd rather get discs

    Confusing though, yesterday I was wrenching a road bike (which I'll be riding while I get a MTB) and I was really missing my avĂ*d mex... so much easier to adjust and wrench.

    Back to the topic, I don't think they would last a lot longer to upgrade the Deore to the new standards. The machinery they already use can be used to manufacture all the low-line components (Acera, Alivio, you name it) and still they need the machinery to produce spares for the already sold gruppos ('01 to '03).

    I just think their facilities are not big enough to cover demand. Once Deore gets upgraded a lot of mfg's will ask Deore for OEM instead of LX. Shitmano obviously needed to make a difference between the LX and Deore. Deore was so good that you'd rather made the step from Deore to XT directly. LX was a bit meaningless. Only thing good about the LX were the cranks (similar to XT but cheaper).
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    Once Deore gets upgraded a lot of mfg's will ask Deore for OEM instead of LX. Shitmano obviously needed to make a difference between the LX and Deore. Deore was so good that you'd rather made the step from Deore to XT directly. LX was a bit meaningless. Only thing good about the LX were the cranks (similar to XT but cheaper).
    I dunno -- I disagree with you about the quality of the other LX drivetrain components. The LX group, as a whole, is pretty solid, especially for the price.

    I see Shimano having 4 "rough" pricepoints to market to:

    * Full XTR for high end bikes.
    * Primarily XT mix for $2k bikes.
    * Primarily LX mix for $1.5k bikes.
    * Primarily Deore mix for $1k bikes.

    Even the most uninformed consumer can walk into a bike shop cold and, within minutes, grasp the Shimano pecking order of component groups. So as long as Deore is there to serve as the bottom rung of the "worthy" mountain bike components, consumers will always see LX as a step up, even without a highly informed LBS sales person there to highlight the nearly imperceptable differences.

    From an aftermarket perspective -- those with bad cases of upgradeitis -- I can't imagine many aspire to upgrade to Deore (although it appears the same can be said of LX, as well).

  19. #19
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    If it craps out why would you want cheaper? As for my Lx I can find replacements a lot cheaper and just as good as anything out there.

  20. #20
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedüb Nate
    From an aftermarket perspective -- those with bad cases of upgradeitis -- I can't imagine many aspire to upgrade to Deore (although it appears the same can be said of LX, as well).
    And most of us will buy parts aftermarket.

    I agree with you that the quality of LX is clearly above the Deore. This year especially. Until last year LX was close in price to XT and performance wise too. And as an informed buyer, you'd rather got the XT (able to go to discs too) instead of the LX. From this point of view LX was a bit meaningless.

    Even when OEM the LX was rarely sold complete. Had seen a lot of LX shifters?? NO. Because Deores worked the same and were cheaper. Hubs?? XT or Deore. Cassettes?? You'd rather get the SCRAP stuff (better quality for the price). Cranks?? XT or Truvativ. Only component I've seen offered in mass to customers was the RD.

    Let's face it. LX was (and will be) good, no freaking doubt. Very solid. But when put face to face on the market with other groupsets it lost terrain quickly.

    The whole new and revamped LX is another ticket. Let's see how will it do with the Hone (which will be priced similalry and spec'ed about the same too). Although the Hone will share some "Total Integration" specs with the Saint (another niche group with little success due to Shitmano Total Integration policies)
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  21. #21
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    Deore to LX?

    No comparison. Deore is like a nice shifting toy driveline. LX is a big bunch of steps up, with XT and XTR being smaller steps above that again.

    I would think that the Deore/LX difference won't be much different to how it is right now. Deore uses heavy arms and steel rings. LX uses lighter arms with a steel granny and ally rings. XT uses lighter stuff all round. XTR remains megabucks for a bee's appendage less weight.

    I'll maybe be back in a week or so. Just no interest here anymore.

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