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  1. #1
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    Dyna Sys 10 speed compatability with 9 speed (Shimano systems)

    I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.

    1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear.

    2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

    3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters.

    4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

    5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

    6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.
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  2. #2
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    You left out...

    Shimano 9/10 speed road front deraileur cable pull geometry is different than shimano mtb front derailleurs, so the equivalent front shifters do not work with front derailleurs from the other model line. That's with fully indexed shifters anyway. With gripshifters/thumbshifters/bar end shifters where you can trim the derailleur cage to wherever you want it, that's not a problem. Also there are a couple companies that offer top-pull adapters for shimano front road derailleurs and these alter the cable pull geometry also making them compatible with indexed shifters. The road flat bar shifters of course work perfectly well with the road front derailleurs when used on a mountain bike unless of course you run a top-pull adapter as well.

  3. #3
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    nice thanks for the info. 10 spd set up is getting ordered now that i dont have to get a 350 buck new/same crank.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.

    1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear.

    2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

    3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters.

    4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

    5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

    6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.
    Thanks for posting this in a more clear manner than Shimano is willing to provide.

    I have read reports from reputable sources that the mtb 9 and 10 sp FDs/shifter do not play well when mixed.
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  5. #5
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    Excellent info and thanks. I have gotten all 10 speed parts for my first build but wanted to use the double SLX cranks (9 speed) that have such a good price going right now. Pretty well had my question answered in another thread but still good to get the info from another source.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.

    1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear.

    2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

    3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters.

    4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

    5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

    6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.
    Nice, probably should be a sticky on this forum

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I have read reports from reputable sources that the mtb 9 and 10 sp FDs/shifter do not play well when mixed.
    From what I understand the front 10 speed shifter is identical to the 9 speed shifter. The difference is in the geometry of the front derailleur. The 10 speed front derailleur moves slightly less per shift due to the 10 speed crankset using thinner rings with closer spacing. You can interchange the front derailleurs, but they will be very difficult to adjust. A 9 speed front derailleur on a 10 speed crankset will slightly overshift each ring. A 10 speed front derailleur on a 9 speed crankset will slightly undershift each ring. What is interesting is that the right 10 speed shifter body looks totally different than the left. It is huge, and the lever looks totally different than the left.

    The Bottom line: match the derailleur to the crankset. If it is a 9 speed crankset, use a 9 speed front derailleur. If it is a 10 speed crankset use a 10 speed front derailleur.
    Last edited by ljsmith; 08-25-2010 at 04:34 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    You left out...

    Shimano 9/10 speed road front deraileur cable pull geometry is different than shimano mtb front derailleurs, so the equivalent front shifters do not work with front derailleurs from the other model line.
    You are correct. I was just making the (bad) assumption that people would not be using road shifters on a mountain bike. However, flat bar road shifters do use the same cable pull for the front derailleur as mountain shifters, they are actually LX level shifters that have been given a trim abilty.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    I was just making the (bad) assumption that people would not be using road shifters on a mountain bike.
    I've been thinking about doing this since the road FB shifters became available, only stopped by the hope that 10-speed gripshifters might become available. I might still do it, as I could thus keep all my shifters and rear derailleurs compatible (road and MTB), potentially saving grief later on.

  10. #10
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    Great news. Per Shimano's rep yesterday, mixing 10-speed chain and shifters with a 9-speed crankset "absolutely will not work". Please pass that crack pipe.

    Also, when asked about fitting the new 3 x 10 cranks with a 22t granny, he said it was no longer possible, due to the bolt circle diameter being changed, and that "if you need that low of a gear, you should quit mountain biking". Sheesh!

    Thanks, guys, for the real info on what actually works on the bike, as opposed to the CADD computer simulations (or are they just marketing simulations?).
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  11. #11
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    Thats funny cuz.....

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Great news. Per Shimano's rep yesterday, mixing 10-speed chain and shifters with a 9-speed crankset "absolutely will not work". Please pass that crack pipe.

    Also, when asked about fitting the new 3 x 10 cranks with a 22t granny, he said it was no longer possible, due to the bolt circle diameter being changed, and that "if you need that low of a gear, you should quit mountain biking". Sheesh!

    Thanks, guys, for the real info on what actually works on the bike, as opposed to the CADD computer simulations (or are they just marketing simulations?).
    I recently took the 24tooth granny from the 3x10cranks that came on my 2011fuel and put it on a 9 speed SLX crankset and installed them on my Fuel with no shifting issues. Even changed the front shifter out to a older X9 that I had laying around.. No problems that I could tell....
    Trying to painfully relive some of youthful adventures!!

  12. #12
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    Some salesmen have even less understanding of the concept of truth than do politicians. Then again, politicians are just salesmen with (bigger) delusions of grandeur.

    Sounds like the guy you spoke to should be in the Gestapo side of Shimano, rather than a customer-contact role. IME, many of the industry guys who are like this used to be (or still are) not-very-successful racers with lots of attitude left over from their failed competitive careers to inflict on the world.

    Also, I find it's always best to actually test all of Shimano's proclamations on compatibility for myself, unless things have been changed so much that they obviously won't work. If there's any doubt, test it, and you'll often be pleasantly less-than-surprised by the result.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Great news. Per Shimano's rep yesterday, mixing 10-speed chain and shifters with a 9-speed crankset "absolutely will not work". Please pass that crack pipe.

    Also, when asked about fitting the new 3 x 10 cranks with a 22t granny, he said it was no longer possible, due to the bolt circle diameter being changed, and that "if you need that low of a gear, you should quit mountain biking". Sheesh!

    Thanks, guys, for the real info on what actually works on the bike, as opposed to the CADD computer simulations (or are they just marketing simulations?).
    Remember that Shimano also said that 8 speed was completely incompatible with 9 speed. They have a vested interest is saying this, they want to sell you parts. 10 speed XT and SLX cranks are basically 9 speed crank arms with 10 speed rings/spiders on them. So why would I want to go buy a new crankset that is identical to what I have unless Shimano says my crankset is incompatible. The XTR that hasn't come out yet is a total redesign though.

    My personal setup is an 11-28 Ultegra 10 speed cassette, SRAM 1070 chain, SLX 10 speed shifters, XT dyna sys rear derailleur, XT 9 speed front derailleur and an XTR M970
    9 speed crankset. My total 10 speed upgrade cost was $210. Its a cobbled together 10 speed system, but it shifts great. Actually it shifts better than my 9 speed system because I get less chain rub in the front due to the thinner chain, and in the rear it is better (I think) because of the increased cable pull from the shifter.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.
    That sounds very similar cable pull with SRAM, doesn't it?

    Nice work btw ljsmith!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Great news. Per Shimano's rep yesterday, mixing 10-speed chain and shifters with a 9-speed crankset "absolutely will not work". Please pass that crack pipe.

    Also, when asked about fitting the new 3 x 10 cranks with a 22t granny, he said it was no longer possible, due to the bolt circle diameter being changed, and that "if you need that low of a gear, you should quit mountain biking". Sheesh!

    Thanks, guys, for the real info on what actually works on the bike, as opposed to the CADD computer simulations (or are they just marketing simulations?).
    Shifters, maybe not. The tooth offset on the 10-sp rings makes the spacing tighter.

    The BCD has not changed on the triple cranks, as per Shimano's own tech documents. The double cranks are different.
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  16. #16
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    thanks, great work. that's answered many of my questions.


    However, i'd like to ask one more question.

    Am i able to use a 10speed crank and front derailleur with a 9 speed rear cassette and derailleur? I dare say I'd have to use a 9 speed chain for that.

    cheers
    d

    thanks
    d

  17. #17
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    alternatively, will i be able to put my 10 speed chainrings on my old 9 speed cranks.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget1
    alternatively, will i be able to put my 10 speed chainrings on my old 9 speed cranks.

    You can use a 9 speed chain with a 10 speed front derailleur and crankset, but you will get a lot more chain rub in certain gear combinations. Are the rings worn out on your 9 speed crank? I have not verified if putting 10 speed rings on a 9 speed crank is okay, bascially I do not know if the ring spacing difference is due to the crankset spider or whether the rings themselves have different offsets. If you do put the 10 speed rings on 9 speed cranks to use with a 9 speed system, let us know how that works.

    But your best bet would be to use a 10 speed crankset, 10 speed front derailleur, 9 speed cassette and rear derailleur and then use a 10 speed chain. A 10 speed chain should work just fine on the rear cassette. I have run 8 speed systems with thinner 9 speed chains and they shift just fine, so I am assuming you can use a 10 speed chain on 9 speed.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget1
    However, i'd like to ask one more question.

    Am i able to use a 10speed crank and front derailleur with a 9 speed rear cassette and derailleur? I dare say I'd have to use a 9 speed chain for that.
    Yes. No a 10 speed chain works on a 9 speed cassette. As I said earlier, the tooth widths of the rings and cogs (9 or 10) is the same and thus the chain inner plate specification is the same. Its the OUTER chain plate width that changes (10 speed is narrower by approx one quarter of one millimeter) when you go up in speeds because of the tighter cassette spacing.

    I have used SRAM 10 speed hollow pin chains on Shimano and Sunrace 9speed cassette equipped road bikes and it shifts the same as with a 9speed chain. If anything you get less chain rub on the bigger ring when in the inner ring and crossing over towards the smaller cogs.

    To repeat... 5, 6, 7 and 8 speed chains use the same cog/ring tooth widths (the 3/32" number in a chain description). 9 and 10 speed chains are 11/128", and I believe the Campy 11speed is 10/128". In terms of outer widths, your typical 8 speed chain is about 7.1mm, 9 speed is about 6.6mm, 10 speed is 6.1mm and 11 speed is 5.5mm.

  20. #20
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    thanks OP. this thread helped me decide that I never want to mix and match components.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Shifters, maybe not. The tooth offset on the 10-sp rings makes the spacing tighter.

    The BCD has not changed on the triple cranks, as per Shimano's own tech documents. The double cranks are different.
    Thanks, Shiggy. Current plan is 10-speed cassette, rear shifter, rear deraileur, and chain, paired with existing 9-speed triple crank, front deraileur, and front shifter.

    Will post up on how it works out.
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  22. #22
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    So, I understand that chainrings are the same thickness, but the ramps are much more elaborate on Dyna Sys- especially on the granny side of the middle ring. Is this necessary to pick up the thinner chain? Has anyone tried running 10-spd chains on the 9-spd rings, particularly XT rings? I'm especially interested in the little ring, since a 24T granny is too big for me. A 22/36 sounds like a great granny for a 29er, and I really want to try it.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    So, I understand that chainrings are the same thickness, but the ramps are much more elaborate on Dyna Sys- especially on the granny side of the middle ring. Is this necessary to pick up the thinner chain? Has anyone tried running 10-spd chains on the 9-spd rings, particularly XT rings? I'm especially interested in the little ring, since a 24T granny is too big for me. A 22/36 sounds like a great granny for a 29er, and I really want to try it.
    Very limited test, but I got the 10-speed cassette, deraileur, and chain on the bike last night. No shifters until tomorrow, but I used the rear limit screws to "lock" the chain into 7th gear, and ON THE WORKSTAND, the front 9-speed crank, rings, der, and shifter functioned perfectly with the 10-speed chain.

    More once the shifters show up, and an actual trail test can be done.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    I just set up a ten speed system on my bike using a mix of 9 speed and 10 speed parts. Since there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about Shimano dyna sys 10 speed, I thought I would post up some compatability issues I have found.
    [...]
    4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset.
    A 2011 MTB with a 2x10 that I just bought came from the factory with a 9spd FD by mistake. Shifting in the front was highly non-optimal. LBS did some tweaking initially before the problem was discovered but it still was barely workable. This was with SRAM S-2200 cranks, a kmc chain and shimano LX FD. If this experience is any indication, I wouldn't bother trying to reuse that 9spd FD when doing a conversion...

  25. #25
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    I'm looking forward to getting my 2011 XTR gruppo at Interbike in 2 weeks.

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