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  1. #1
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Disputing Shimano advertising

    I followed the Dual Control advertising and found the following write-up. Their points seem pretty weak if you ask me.

    http://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont...ol_levers.html


    Dual Control Levers


    1. Shifts & brakes simultaneously and from a variety of hand positions.

    Other shifters require a specific hand placement to execute a shift. Dual Control allows many different variations, including shifting from bar ends to complete a shift.

    This means that regardless of terrain, conditions, or maneuvers, a shift can
    be completed as desired. The option even remains for use of a thumb lever.



    No other controllers do NOT require specific hand positions. They are about as specific as dual control levers. For Grip Shift, the variability is even greater.




    2. Adapts to YOUR hands and riding style. Lever pivots in two axis to obtain an optimal position in both angle and reach.

    Position the brake lever (both angle and reach) in an optimal position for a wide variety of hand sizes, preferences, and riding styles. Of course trigger systems can be adjusted for angle and reach, however, the angle of the brake lever is dependent on the angle of the shifter. So, the trigger shifter position must first be set so that the triggers can be reached and then the brake lever must then be set at the best possible position that remains.

    The "shifter" on a Dual Control unit is adjustable for position as you adjust the "brake lever" for reach. This means a much more customized fit for a great variety of hand sizes. The added benefit of a lever that pivots in two axes, creating less potential for bent or broken brake lever blades in the event of contact with the ground, trees, etc.


    WHAT???

    The system adapts to me??? Does this mean the controls automatically morph themselves while I'm riding. Or does it mean I have to put the control where I like like any other system.

    The angle of the brake is NOT dependent on the angle of shifters. The brake and shifting bodies are on completely opposite sides of the bar. The tricky part is getting things set up laterally, not the angle.

    As far as busting the brake on trees. I'm sure it's relieving to know that any destructive blow to the brake lever will also take out the shifter. The old method of loosening the attachment bolts so the unit will move under shock is just fine for me. The other excellent method is big bar end that protect your hands and brake levers.

    BTW, as far as durability goes, you'll never beat a twist shifter. And as far as mechanics in general go ... the more parts a device has, the more prone to breakage it is. These shifters have to have a LOT of parts.




    3. More intuitive shifting is easier for users to learn and execute.

    The function of the Dual Control levers, when combined with a Low Normal rear derailleur, is much more intuitive therefore, easier to explain to users. This is because you perform the same movement for both left and right levers for higher and lower gears.



    The most intuitive shifting is the one you already know. As far as "upshifts" and "downshifts", I don't believe most people think of it this way. On the right, you "grab gears". On the front you grab rings or drop them.



    4. Simple integration.

    One clamp, one fixing bolt, one adjustment and less weight.


    One shifter, one available braking system. You want hydraulic with an integrated shifter??? Ahh, than you'll need a Shimano hydraulic brake. No Hayes, Avid or Hope for you!!!!!


    Nothing against this mode of shifting, but this advertising is pretty lame. But I guess you have to do a lot of advertising to convince someone to adopt such an expensive system that provides little benefit over traditional trigger and grip shifting.

  2. #2
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    It's marketing.
    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    I followed the Dual Control advertising and found the following write-up. Their points seem pretty weak if you ask me.

    http://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont...ol_levers.html


    Dual Control Levers


    1. Shifts & brakes simultaneously and from a variety of hand positions.

    Other shifters require a specific hand placement to execute a shift. Dual Control allows many different variations, including shifting from bar ends to complete a shift.

    This means that regardless of terrain, conditions, or maneuvers, a shift can
    be completed as desired. The option even remains for use of a thumb lever.



    No other controllers do NOT require specific hand positions. They are about as specific as dual control levers. For Grip Shift, the variability is even greater.




    2. Adapts to YOUR hands and riding style. Lever pivots in two axis to obtain an optimal position in both angle and reach.

    Position the brake lever (both angle and reach) in an optimal position for a wide variety of hand sizes, preferences, and riding styles. Of course trigger systems can be adjusted for angle and reach, however, the angle of the brake lever is dependent on the angle of the shifter. So, the trigger shifter position must first be set so that the triggers can be reached and then the brake lever must then be set at the best possible position that remains.

    The "shifter" on a Dual Control unit is adjustable for position as you adjust the "brake lever" for reach. This means a much more customized fit for a great variety of hand sizes. The added benefit of a lever that pivots in two axes, creating less potential for bent or broken brake lever blades in the event of contact with the ground, trees, etc.


    WHAT???

    The system adapts to me??? Does this mean the controls automatically morph themselves while I'm riding. Or does it mean I have to put the control where I like like any other system.

    The angle of the brake is NOT dependent on the angle of shifters. The brake and shifting bodies are on completely opposite sides of the bar. The tricky part is getting things set up laterally, not the angle.

    As far as busting the brake on trees. I'm sure it's relieving to know that any destructive blow to the brake lever will also take out the shifter. The old method of loosening the attachment bolts so the unit will move under shock is just fine for me. The other excellent method is big bar end that protect your hands and brake levers.

    BTW, as far as durability goes, you'll never beat a twist shifter. And as far as mechanics in general go ... the more parts a device has, the more prone to breakage it is. These shifters have to have a LOT of parts.




    3. More intuitive shifting is easier for users to learn and execute.

    The function of the Dual Control levers, when combined with a Low Normal rear derailleur, is much more intuitive therefore, easier to explain to users. This is because you perform the same movement for both left and right levers for higher and lower gears.



    The most intuitive shifting is the one you already know. As far as "upshifts" and "downshifts", I don't believe most people think of it this way. On the right, you "grab gears". On the front you grab rings or drop them.



    4. Simple integration.

    One clamp, one fixing bolt, one adjustment and less weight.


    One shifter, one available braking system. You want hydraulic with an integrated shifter??? Ahh, than you'll need a Shimano hydraulic brake. No Hayes, Avid or Hope for you!!!!!


    Nothing against this mode of shifting, but this advertising is pretty lame. But I guess you have to do a lot of advertising to convince someone to adopt such an expensive system that provides little benefit over traditional trigger and grip shifting.

  3. #3
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    Look if you like SRAM just say so. Seems rather a waste of time to do all that research just to slam shimano. I like shimano. Works great. When it gives up the ghost(in it's 5th year now) then I'll try sram, but not because of some obviously biased post by someone with a dull axe to grind.
    Last edited by fred3; 04-21-2005 at 04:12 AM.

  4. #4
    Mantis, Paramount, Campy
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    Yea, Marketing Hype....Everyone Does It

    I don't think anyone would own a Trek made in the last 20 years if it weren't for marketing.
    And there would be no Grip Shift if it weren't for marketing...'cause it was horendous for its first 5+ years but somehow kept getting speced on bikes.

    I would however disagree with your point #1.
    Grip Shift requires a specific hand position. You cannot grab the brake lever while you are rolling your wrist foreward or backwards durring a shift. With the Dual Control levers you can do both at the same time because only your fingers have to move. The majority of your hand is always stationaty and your wrist doesn't have to move.
    *** --- *** --- ***

  5. #5
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    actually not only are you wrong,

    but you're stupid..


    You cannot activate twister's are triggers from the bar ends. Only XTR Triggers had a remote shifter for the bar end.

    IME the Dual control shifters are very tough, tougher than triggers. I've banged mine many times and they absorb the impact much better than the twisters i trashed in a crash lastyear.

    The ergonomics of SRAM shifters is absolutely ****. You have to remove your thumb from the bar to make thm work. According to mny scientists, biologists et al, the reason we **** sapiens developed faster than other apes is due to our opposing thumb. We don;t have to hold onto things with our tails. NOw SRAM wants me remove my thumb form the bar and shift the gears, .........................yeah right mate.

    You want to swallow SRAM's marketing mallarky then thats fine. I've tried both systems and quite frankly the SRAM ESP is different to be different.

    Now run along back to your telemarketing channel while the rest of u get on with riding our bikes. I still have 12 hrs of riding to do this week,.......with Dual control which seems to demostrate all the advantages Shimano mentions on their website.

    this debate........yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

  6. #6
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    You want quick, flawless shifting? Try Paul's thumbies with Dura Ace barcons... besides my Rohloff this is the best shifting performance I've ever had. Crisp, accurate, and almost bulletproof, what more could you ask for?

  7. #7
    willtsmith_nwi
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    i don't think there is anything wrong with XTR ...

    Quote Originally Posted by fred3
    Look if you like SRAM just say so. Seems rather a waste of time to do all that research just to slam shimano. I like shimano. Works great. When it gives up the ghost(in it's 5th year now) then I'll try sram, but not because of some obviously biased post by someone with a dull axe to grind.
    But the claims people are making about XTR flippy shifting are ridiculous.

    The concept of "RapidRise" is nothing new. It's been done before. For some reason the bike market settled on the "traditional" derailleur setup.


    People come into forums like this and they're looking for guidance. All the XTR heads a talking about all these so called "advantages" that simply don't exist. It's a different style of shifting. It's the same argument as Trigger vs Throttle shifting. And that is all a matter of personal preference.

    I actually tried the XTR shifters. I found them pleasent. But they also seemed a little fragile to me. I'm sure I could get used to them if I had to.

    But please, don't deceive posters coming here looking for advice.

  8. #8
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Yes I can ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    I don't think anyone would own a Trek made in the last 20 years if it weren't for marketing.
    And there would be no Grip Shift if it weren't for marketing...'cause it was horendous for its first 5+ years but somehow kept getting speced on bikes.

    I would however disagree with your point #1.
    Grip Shift requires a specific hand position. You cannot grab the brake lever while you are rolling your wrist foreward or backwards durring a shift. With the Dual Control levers you can do both at the same time because only your fingers have to move. The majority of your hand is always stationaty and your wrist doesn't have to move.
    Yes, I CAN twist the shifter with my index finger while grasping the the brake with my middle finger. Thats how I do it. I'm sure others have their own specific method. People running their brakes more inboard could brake with the index and twist with the middle finger. Those running brake VERY outboard could brake with their last two finger while twisting with the first two.

    Yes, marketing IS important. But there needs to be some honesty in advertising. And when people are clearly lying, others need to speak up.

    I'll state my position again. I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with flippy-shifting. It's just another style. NONE, of the so-called "advantages" Shimano or others tought are real.

  9. #9
    willtsmith_nwi
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    You've got one point there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad
    actually not only are you wrong,

    but you're stupid..


    You cannot activate twister's are triggers from the bar ends. Only XTR Triggers had a remote shifter for the bar end.

    IME the Dual control shifters are very tough, tougher than triggers. I've banged mine many times and they absorb the impact much better than the twisters i trashed in a crash lastyear.

    The ergonomics of SRAM shifters is absolutely ****. You have to remove your thumb from the bar to make thm work. According to mny scientists, biologists et al, the reason we **** sapiens developed faster than other apes is due to our opposing thumb. We don;t have to hold onto things with our tails. NOw SRAM wants me remove my thumb form the bar and shift the gears, .........................yeah right mate.

    You want to swallow SRAM's marketing mallarky then thats fine. I've tried both systems and quite frankly the SRAM ESP is different to be different.

    Now run along back to your telemarketing channel while the rest of u get on with riding our bikes. I still have 12 hrs of riding to do this week,.......with Dual control which seems to demostrate all the advantages Shimano mentions on their website.

    this debate........yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

    No, You cannot twist from the bar end. That is, unless you set up your twist shifter On the bar end. But I never said you could. I just said you could use either triggers or grips from different hand positions.

    BUT ... just remember that you have to have your flip shifters set up NEAR the bar end in order for this to work. Most people set up their brake levers below or WAY below the horizontal plane (parallell with their wrist). Most bar end are angle ABOVE the horizontal plane.

    The traditional setup of bar-end and brake lever will PREVENT your bar end shifting from happening without taking your grip OFF the bar end. In such an instance, shifting with the flippies from the bar end is the SAME as shifting with a throttle or trigger shifter. You have to reset your grip and risk losing some control and leverage.

    Futhermore, I'll point out the the "in vogue" style of bar ends are those little shorties that stick out both ways from the bar. They aren't the big (and HEAVY ;-) ) L bars. There is NO way you can shift or brake from an outboard bar end.

    In regards to ESP ... there is a REAL and measureable difference between 1:2 actuation ration and 1:1 acutation ration. Any error or bind in the cable system will be amplified by a factor of 2 in a 1:2 AR shifter. Any error or bind in a ESP 1:1 will be reflected on the shifter "as is" with no amplification.

    SRAM ESP systems are more robust and less prone to mis-shifting when the cabling gets gummed up, or ... when the cable stretches.

    If Shimano came up with a 2:1 AR system tommorow (2mm of pull for 1mm of derailleur movement) that would be better than SRAM's 1:1 system. The problem is getting those little wheels in the pod to pull so much cable.

    Ergonomics is certainly a personal thing. If you prefer traditional triggers (which DO require you to use your ape thumb), that's your thing. Personally, I prefer grips and thats my thing. The ergonomics that fit you best is an advantage for YOU personally.

    XTR is probably better for SOME people. But don't tell me it's an advantage across the board. If it was, all the pros would have adopted XTR flippies by now AND SRAM would have come out with a knockoff.

  10. #10
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    Its called marketing for a reason. You want to talk about bogus marketing I suggest you check out Specialized's latest mutli page ads in the latest May MBA. Now thats absurd. While some of the shimano claims are just that, marketing a lot of them are right on and I can actually debunk more of your claims that I can theirs but I'll get to that later. The first obvious thing is you obviously have no sort of significant riding experience on DC shifters, much less with properly aligned ones.

  11. #11
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    Wow, where to start. Lets see...


    Dual Control Levers


    1. Shifts & brakes simultaneously and from a variety of hand positions.

    Other shifters require a specific hand placement to execute a shift. Dual Control allows many different variations, including shifting from bar ends to complete a shift.

    This means that regardless of terrain, conditions, or maneuvers, a shift can
    be completed as desired. The option even remains for use of a thumb lever.




    No other controllers do NOT require specific hand positions. They are about as specific as dual control levers. For Grip Shift, the variability is even greater.

    Exactly how many specific shifting positions do you get from a gripshift? You wrap your thumb and fingers around it and twist it back or forth or??? Trigger shifters, you press the paddle with your thumb or, your knee perhaps??? You release the trigger with your index and if set at just the right angle maybe your thumb on a shimano pod. With an Sram trigger pod you can use your thumb in either direction and maybe your index on the release at certain strange angles?
    Now lets see with STI. You can downshift by 1) pushing the thumb release 2) flicking the lever up with the back of your finger/s (the most popular method). 3) Pulling the lever up from outside with your fingers while in the braking position. 4) On a bar end the tip of the lever brake is quite reachable with a correctly aligned lever by pulling it up.
    Lets see about downshifting. 1)You can press straight down on the lever with your hand on the braking position. The ultimate advantage of the STI setup. 2) You can push down on it from a bar end.
    Lets see the total, there are at least 6 total, feasable ways to easily shift an STI setup compared to 2 total with the others. In the case of pods a big maybe awckward third with the release buttons.

    Score: Shimano 1, willsmith 0

  12. #12
    Live 2 Ride
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad
    The ergonomics of SRAM shifters is absolutely ****. You have to remove your thumb from the bar to make thm work. According to mny scientists, biologists et al, the reason we **** sapiens developed faster than other apes is due to our opposing thumb. We don;t have to hold onto things with our tails. NOw SRAM wants me remove my thumb form the bar and shift the gears, .........................yeah right mate.
    I use my thumbs to shift and I have a complete Shimano drivetrain but it's NOT a dual control setup and never will be. Therefore your statement is flawed.

    By the way I NEVER shift and brake at the same time.

    OH and there was nothing wrong with Specialized's ads in MBA because they spoke the truth.
    My Bike: '03 Specialized HardRock FrankenBike
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  13. #13
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    2. Adapts to YOUR hands and riding style. Lever pivots in two axis to obtain an optimal position in both angle and reach.

    Position the brake lever (both angle and reach) in an optimal position for a wide variety of hand sizes, preferences, and riding styles. Of course trigger systems can be adjusted for angle and reach, however, the angle of the brake lever is dependent on the angle of the shifter. So, the trigger shifter position must first be set so that the triggers can be reached and then the brake lever must then be set at the best possible position that remains.

    The "shifter" on a Dual Control unit is adjustable for position as you adjust the "brake lever" for reach. This means a much more customized fit for a great variety of hand sizes. The added benefit of a lever that pivots in two axes, creating less potential for bent or broken brake lever blades in the event of contact with the ground, trees, etc.



    WHAT???

    The system adapts to me??? Does this mean the controls automatically morph themselves while I'm riding. Or does it mean I have to put the control where I like like any other system.

    The angle of the brake is NOT dependent on the angle of shifters. The brake and shifting bodies are on completely opposite sides of the bar. The tricky part is getting things set up laterally, not the angle.

    As far as busting the brake on trees. I'm sure it's relieving to know that any destructive blow to the brake lever will also take out the shifter. The old method of loosening the attachment bolts so the unit will move under shock is just fine for me. The other excellent method is big bar end that protect your hands and brake levers.

    BTW, as far as durability goes, you'll never beat a twist shifter. And as far as mechanics in general go ... the more parts a device has, the more prone to breakage it is. These shifters have to have a LOT of parts.


    The brakes are fully adjustable. They can be tilted up, down, forward or back with no interrption since the shifter is also the lever. Sure you can do that on any other brake... if you run a single speed. The optimum braking angle is typically by definition the optimum shifting angle, ie the one your hand can reach the most easily. Now put a shifter pod in there. How do you push your lever down without having to rotate the shifter pod controls up? Say you want to run your brakes farther down, then you are forced to push the pod down as well forcing the controls back and up. What if you want to run the controls further down and front? You will be forced to put the lever further up. If you want to run you brake lever far in to be able to easily one finger brake off the hook your shifters have push in as well moving them away from your thumb. What if you want the controls very inwards towards the grip. Brake lever goes so far in you will probably have to brake from inside the lever. You can solve the rotation problem with a gripshift but not the side sliding factor. Gripshifts tend to push the lever way into the bar. All of this makes braking and shifting TOTALLY dependant on the angle of each part.

    What exactly makes the STI system more exposed to a crashes against a tree. Its sits in front of the bar, just as exposed as a conventional brake lever and shifter. The difference is it PIVOTS in all four directions making it IS less likely to bend. As a matter of fact one of the most interesting side effects users of STI units have noticed of the 4 way pivoting is its largely eliminated the top tube versus brake lever/shifter collisions which would typically leave you with a bent brake lever or dented top tube. The STI unit hits the top tube and entirely pivots back and up over the tube causing at most a light scratch.

    As far as durability goes you obviously have no understanding of the Shimano shifter workings or its construction. The shifters guts are all steel. The guts sit inside a metal cage attached to a forged aluminum main body. The only plastic parts on the STI unit is the outside dust cover and the piece were the cable is wound inside which is a no wear part. The mechanism is the same tried and true one thats been around for years, only its actuated differently now. Shimano guts take years to wear out. Most "worn out" shifters are often only so dirty inside from use they can't ratchet right. Flushing the guts with some oil almost always puts them to work like new regardless of how old. Thats why they last for years. Take apart you Sram derrailleurs and see how much plastic you find.

    Score: Shimano 2, willsmith 0

  14. #14
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    3. More intuitive shifting is easier for users to learn and execute.

    The function of the Dual Control levers, when combined with a Low Normal rear derailleur, is much more intuitive therefore, easier to explain to users. This is because you perform the same movement for both left and right levers for higher and lower gears.




    The most intuitive shifting is the one you already know. As far as "upshifts" and "downshifts", I don't believe most people think of it this way. On the right, you "grab gears". On the front you grab rings or drop them.

    So if you don't know any shifting, what is the most intuitive system? Lets see, if you have low normal derrailleurs its push lever thingy to go faster and heavier or click button thingy to go lighter/slower. Kinda simple huh? Works the same on both sides. Lets see, if I'm a novice and mid ride and I get confused, why does right lever shifty thingy make it lighter but left lever shifty thingy make it go heavier? Or was it the other way around? This is a pretty stupid non issue and its merely a matter of getting used to.

    Score: Shimano 3, willsmith 0

  15. #15
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Sideway flipping ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    2. Adapts to YOUR hands and riding style. Lever pivots in two axis to obtain an optimal position in both angle and reach.

    Position the brake lever (both angle and reach) in an optimal position for a wide variety of hand sizes, preferences, and riding styles. Of course trigger systems can be adjusted for angle and reach, however, the angle of the brake lever is dependent on the angle of the shifter. So, the trigger shifter position must first be set so that the triggers can be reached and then the brake lever must then be set at the best possible position that remains.

    The "shifter" on a Dual Control unit is adjustable for position as you adjust the "brake lever" for reach. This means a much more customized fit for a great variety of hand sizes. The added benefit of a lever that pivots in two axes, creating less potential for bent or broken brake lever blades in the event of contact with the ground, trees, etc.



    WHAT???

    The system adapts to me??? Does this mean the controls automatically morph themselves while I'm riding. Or does it mean I have to put the control where I like like any other system.

    The angle of the brake is NOT dependent on the angle of shifters. The brake and shifting bodies are on completely opposite sides of the bar. The tricky part is getting things set up laterally, not the angle.

    As far as busting the brake on trees. I'm sure it's relieving to know that any destructive blow to the brake lever will also take out the shifter. The old method of loosening the attachment bolts so the unit will move under shock is just fine for me. The other excellent method is big bar end that protect your hands and brake levers.

    BTW, as far as durability goes, you'll never beat a twist shifter. And as far as mechanics in general go ... the more parts a device has, the more prone to breakage it is. These shifters have to have a LOT of parts.


    The brakes are fully adjustable. They can be tilted up, down, forward or back with no interrption since the shifter is also the lever. Sure you can do that on any other brake... if you run a single speed. The optimum braking angle is typically by definition the optimum shifting angle, ie the one your hand can reach the most easily. Now put a shifter pod in there. How do you push your lever down without having to rotate the shifter pod controls up? Say you want to run your brakes farther down, then you are forced to push the pod down as well forcing the controls back and up. What if you want to run the controls further down and front? You will be forced to put the lever further up. If you want to run you brake lever far in to be able to easily one finger brake off the hook your shifters have push in as well moving them away from your thumb. What if you want the controls very inwards towards the grip. Brake lever goes so far in you will probably have to brake from inside the lever. You can solve the rotation problem with a gripshift but not the side sliding factor. Gripshifts tend to push the lever way into the bar. All of this makes braking and shifting TOTALLY dependant on the angle of each part.

    What exactly makes the STI system more exposed to a crashes against a tree. Its sits in front of the bar, just as exposed as a conventional brake lever and shifter. The difference is it PIVOTS in all four directions making it IS less likely to bend. As a matter of fact one of the most interesting side effects users of STI units have noticed of the 4 way pivoting is its largely eliminated the top tube versus brake lever/shifter collisions which would typically leave you with a bent brake lever or dented top tube. The STI unit hits the top tube and entirely pivots back and up over the tube causing at most a light scratch.

    As far as durability goes you obviously have no understanding of the Shimano shifter workings or its construction. The shifters guts are all steel. The guts sit inside a metal cage attached to a forged aluminum main body. The only plastic parts on the STI unit is the outside dust cover and the piece were the cable is wound inside which is a no wear part. The mechanism is the same tried and true one thats been around for years, only its actuated differently now. Shimano guts take years to wear out. Most "worn out" shifters are often only so dirty inside from use they can't ratchet right. Flushing the guts with some oil almost always puts them to work like new regardless of how old. Thats why they last for years. Take apart you Sram derrailleurs and see how much plastic you find.

    Score: Shimano 2, willsmith 0
    I will grant you the top tube thing. I hadn't thought about that. I can see the advantage there.

    I do agree that it is as vulnerable as any other brake. But, as I said before, that problem is easily solved by slackening the bolt a little bit so a hard collision will just twist the brake around. I've personally never broken a brake lever (I run big L-Bar ends).

    As far as the relationship between the shifter pod and the brake goes, they work just fine now. They bits are in the right directions.

    With throttle shifters, you do have lateral mobility. It just stops at the top of the shifter. I can see how this would impair people who like to shift with all four fingers. Personally, I shift with either one (middle) or two (middle & index). If you need all four fingers to shift, you had better address your brake situation.

    Regarding durability, I have no qualms. I just point out that more complicated mechanisms are more prone to failure. This goes for SRAM as well as Shimano shifter pods. Grip Shifts are some of the simplest shifters you'll find.

    BTW, SRAM parts aren't plastic. They're a composite material with injected fiberglass. It really is tough stuff.

    Will 7 Shimano 1

    Again. I don't think flippy shifters are BAD. I just don't think there is any objective advantage to them. It's the same argument as triggers vs throttle. It's a matter of personal preference.

  16. #16
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    4. Simple integration.

    One clamp, one fixing bolt, one adjustment and less weight.



    One shifter, one available braking system. You want hydraulic with an integrated shifter??? Ahh, than you'll need a Shimano hydraulic brake. No Hayes, Avid or Hope for you!!!!!


    Nothing against this mode of shifting, but this advertising is pretty lame. But I guess you have to do a lot of advertising to convince someone to adopt such an expensive system that provides little benefit over traditional trigger and grip shifting.


    There's no mainstream hydraulic system lighter than the XTR STI/brake combo. Combine the lightest traditional shifter system with the lightest brake system and its still heavier. Each complete side is about 500g including the STI's, brakes, rotors, pads, hoses, oil, and mounting hardware. The lightest non-integrated system I can think of (other than a lot of the more obscure stuff you see in the WW board) is the Marta SL with X.0 shifters totalling around 520g. If anyone knows of anything lighter please weigh in. Now start putting in somewhat heavier shifter pods and levers and the weights start climbing to closer to 600g or more. Now were talking about nearly 1/2 pound differences when both sides are combined.

    You want to talk about incredibly expensive shifting systems? Go take a looksee at the 2006 Sram pricing of the X.0 shifter/triggers and the X.0 derrailleur. While you're at it top it off with the oh so low cost of a nice high end braking system and then get back to me on pricing concerns. Makes XTR look affordable.

    You want other brakes with the STI? Well I'll give you that one. Can't exactly see how you can attempt to do STI shifting using a non integrated lever unless you tell hayes, hope, magura, avid, and everyone else to redesign everything. Can't really blame Shimano for that one.
    However, you are wrong that you can't use Hope. They have a seal kit to make their calipers compatible with mineral oil (read shimano levers). After all the Hope, Shimano, Grimeca, and Sram 9.0 hydraulic levers are all compatible since they are all copies of the Grimeca System 8 design so they all have compatible master cycliders. Its just a matter of matching the seals for the fluid. I'll give you 2/3 of a point for being right about Hayes and Avid but not Hope

    Final Score: Shimano 4, willsmith 2/3

  17. #17
    willtsmith_nwi
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    If direction was a problem ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    3. More intuitive shifting is easier for users to learn and execute.

    The function of the Dual Control levers, when combined with a Low Normal rear derailleur, is much more intuitive therefore, easier to explain to users. This is because you perform the same movement for both left and right levers for higher and lower gears.




    The most intuitive shifting is the one you already know. As far as "upshifts" and "downshifts", I don't believe most people think of it this way. On the right, you "grab gears". On the front you grab rings or drop them.

    So if you don't know any shifting, what is the most intuitive system? Lets see, if you have low normal derrailleurs its push lever thingy to go faster and heavier or click button thingy to go lighter/slower. Kinda simple huh? Works the same on both sides. Lets see, if I'm a novice and mid ride and I get confused, why does right lever shifty thingy make it lighter but left lever shifty thingy make it go heavier? Or was it the other way around? This is a pretty stupid non issue and its merely a matter of getting used to.

    Score: Shimano 3, willsmith 0
    If the direction was the problem, why not simply switch the spring direction on the front derailleur????

    Or ... you could swap around the trigger action on either derailleur to make it work the same????

    Honestly, I really don't think it matters because these are all conditioned movements anyway. Most people shift the rear derailleur most of the time. You'll NEVER catch a beginner switching to a separate ring to crossing up the chainline.

    If Shimano was so worried about beginners, they'd put Rapid Rise into their lowest lines along with backwards throttle shifters that they put on comfy bikes. They would also reverse the pull direction on their internally geared hubs.

    Your typical XTR users KNOW how to use a bike already. They don't need Shimano teaching them a newer "better" system.

  18. #18
    Chrome Toaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi

    Regarding durability, I have no qualms. I just point out that more complicated mechanisms are more prone to failure. This goes for SRAM as well as Shimano shifter pods. Grip Shifts are some of the simplest shifters you'll find.

    BTW, SRAM parts aren't plastic. They're a composite material with injected fiberglass. It really is tough stuff.
    Unfortunately even though gripshift is mechanically simpler it is also the system most prone to wear. All the main parts are plastic or other relatively soft compounds. The detents are plastic and wear out fast and develop slop. Gripshifts were a disaster for years and this is the most significant reason Sram went with 1:1 shifting. It was to solve a big performance nightmare. It was the marketing folks who came up with all the 1:1 superiority brujaja Shimano's shifters as I stated use all steel ratchets which last a VERY long time and don't develop much significant wear. The steel ratchets provide very crisp and precise shifting making 1:2 pull extremely viable and reliable and at the same time keeping lever strokes very short and fast. Sram's lever stroke is longer because it needs to pull more cable. Twist shifting has a much wider range of motion which means a short pull system becomes more innacurate and the longer range of movement adds more wear since now your entire hand can be yanking back and forth on the barrels. Anyway, I'm deviating here. Sram's composite stuff is not as tough as you think and I've had first hand experience with this. Starting by the 9.0 SL derrailleurs that broke so frequently at the rear composite pivot they were eventually phased out to the X.0 which are quite failure prone in the composite knuckle and the tiny pin that holds the cage to it. If you don't believe this one just do a search on these boards and specifically this forum to see how recurring this problem is, with pictures and all. It doesn't match the durability of Shimano's forged aluminum knuckle with a massive machined pin attaching the cage to it.

  19. #19
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Oh, you wanna talk money!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    4. Simple integration.

    One clamp, one fixing bolt, one adjustment and less weight.



    One shifter, one available braking system. You want hydraulic with an integrated shifter??? Ahh, than you'll need a Shimano hydraulic brake. No Hayes, Avid or Hope for you!!!!!


    Nothing against this mode of shifting, but this advertising is pretty lame. But I guess you have to do a lot of advertising to convince someone to adopt such an expensive system that provides little benefit over traditional trigger and grip shifting.


    There's no mainstream hydraulic system lighter than the XTR STI/brake combo. Combine the lightest traditional shifter system with the lightest brake system and its still heavier. Each complete side is about 500g including the STI's, brakes, rotors, pads, hoses, oil, and mounting hardware. The lightest non-integrated system I can think of (other than a lot of the more obscure stuff you see in the WW board) is the Marta SL with X.0 shifters totalling around 520g. If anyone knows of anything lighter please weigh in. Now start putting in somewhat heavier shifter pods and levers and the weights start climbing to closer to 600g or more. Now were talking about nearly 1/2 pound differences when both sides are combined.

    You want to talk about incredibly expensive shifting systems? Go take a looksee at the 2006 Sram pricing of the X.0 shifter/triggers and the X.0 derrailleur. While you're at it top it off with the oh so low cost of a nice high end braking system and then get back to me on pricing concerns. Makes XTR look affordable.

    You want other brakes with the STI? Well I'll give you that one. Can't exactly see how you can attempt to do STI shifting using a non integrated lever unless you tell hayes, hope, magura, avid, and everyone else to redesign everything. Can't really blame Shimano for that one.
    However, you are wrong that you can't use Hope. They have a seal kit to make their calipers compatible with mineral oil (read shimano levers). After all the Hope, Shimano, Grimeca, and Sram 9.0 hydraulic levers are all compatible since they are all copies of the Grimeca System 8 design so they all have compatible master cycliders. Its just a matter of matching the seals for the fluid. I'll give you 2/3 of a point for being right about Hayes and Avid but not Hope

    Final Score: Shimano 4, willsmith 2/3

    A) I'm not all that concerned with weight weenies.

    B) You're kidding me on the cost of XTR vs the cost of SRAM X.0. The Shimano XTR shifter alone is $400 for hydro disc brakes. $310 for cable actuated. The Derailleur is $120.

    XTR Discs are $120 per axle. And you're stuck with Shimano.


    A SRAM X.0 derailleur and shifter package costs $190 on Pricepoint.

    Hmmm

    XTR
    ---------------
    $400 Hydro STI shifters
    $120 Derailleur
    $240 Brakes (2 axles)
    ------------
    $760


    SRAM
    ---------------
    $190 Shifters and Derailleur
    $240 Juicy 5 Brakes (2 axles)
    ---------
    $430


    We could argue about Juicy 5 vs Shimano XTR all day. But you can't put Shimano XTR against Juicy 7s because Shimano doesn't have the contact point adjustment like the Juicy 7s.

    As far as the 2006 stuff goes, it's not out in retailers yet.

  20. #20
    willtsmith_nwi
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    I agree with the motivation ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    Unfortunately even though gripshift is mechanically simpler it is also the system most prone to wear. All the main parts are plastic or other relatively soft compounds. The detents are plastic and wear out fast and develop slop. Gripshifts were a disaster for years and this is the most significant reason Sram went with 1:1 shifting. It was to solve a big performance nightmare. It was the marketing folks who came up with all the 1:1 superiority brujaja Shimano's shifters as I stated use all steel ratchets which last a VERY long time and don't develop much significant wear. The steel ratchets provide very crisp and precise shifting making 1:2 pull extremely viable and reliable and at the same time keeping lever strokes very short and fast. Sram's lever stroke is longer because it needs to pull more cable. Twist shifting has a much wider range of motion which means a short pull system becomes more innacurate and the longer range of movement adds more wear since now your entire hand can be yanking back and forth on the barrels. Anyway, I'm deviating here. Sram's composite stuff is not as tough as you think and I've had first hand experience with this. Starting by the 9.0 SL derrailleurs that broke so frequently at the rear composite pivot they were eventually phased out to the X.0 which are quite failure prone in the composite knuckle and the tiny pin that holds the cage to it. If you don't believe this one just do a search on these boards and specifically this forum to see how recurring this problem is, with pictures and all. It doesn't match the durability of Shimano's forged aluminum knuckle with a massive machined pin attaching the cage to it.
    I certainly agree with the motivation. The big SRAM throttle mechanism works better pulling more cable.

    Regarding the SRAM stuff "falling apart". I've read those reviews. I've also read reviews of downhillers who have beat the crap out of their SRAM gear. I would like to see objective tests done on this subject.

    For now, I know my SRAM stuff works. I know the community of people I ride with ride SRAM and haven't experienced these problems. I know I haven't experienced these problems. I replaced new Shimano stuff with 4 year old SRAM x.7 gear (low end) and it is WAY better.

    I know that pretty much everybody who goes SRAM, never goes back. I know that some people are too dumb to realize that sometimes you hit stuff and ANY derailleur would fail especially if you don't have a replaceable derailleur hanger designed to snap.

    I know that the attitude of "set it and forget it" is overwhelmingly prevalent in the SRAM community. I know that you can measure inaccuracies in the cabling system and how that translates to inaccuracies in the derailleur placement. I know that 1:2 cable actuation magnifies any slop or snags by a factor of two.

    Oh BTW. My 1996 Shimano Rear/Gripshift front (2:1 cable actuation) shifted just as poorly as the Shimano Rear/Trigger front that came on my latest bike. GripShift didn't start from nothing and become the second largest bike component manufacturer by making crap.

    Just remember that SRAM isn't specced by default on too many bikes. The OEM market is ruled by Shimano. SRAM got to where it is by people fed up with Shimano and CHOOSING to dump their stock Shimano stuff for SRAM 1:1 ESP.

    If their customers weren't pleased, the word would have gotten out and SRAM would have failed. Instead, they are now challenging Shimano for dominance in the MTB space.
    Last edited by willtsmith_nwi; 04-21-2005 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Adding an anecdote ..

  21. #21
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    monkey boy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad
    The ergonomics of SRAM shifters is absolutely ****. You have to remove your thumb from the bar to make thm work. According to mny scientists, biologists et al, the reason we **** sapiens developed faster than other apes is due to our opposing thumb. We don;t have to hold onto things with our tails. NOw SRAM wants me remove my thumb form the bar and shift the gears, .........................yeah right mate.
    You know, I do exhibit some ape-like tendencies. Maybe it is from using thumb shifters for too long.
    [SIZE=1]Don't believe everything that you think.[/SIZE]

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    If the direction was the problem, why not simply switch the spring direction on the front derailleur????

    Or ... you could swap around the trigger action on either derailleur to make it work the same????

    Honestly, I really don't think it matters because these are all conditioned movements anyway. Most people shift the rear derailleur most of the time. You'll NEVER catch a beginner switching to a separate ring to crossing up the chainline.

    If Shimano was so worried about beginners, they'd put Rapid Rise into their lowest lines along with backwards throttle shifters that they put on comfy bikes. They would also reverse the pull direction on their internally geared hubs.

    Your typical XTR users KNOW how to use a bike already. They don't need Shimano teaching them a newer "better" system.
    "If the direction was the problem, why not simply switch the spring direction on the front derailleur???? "

    Because its more practical to do it in the rear than in the front. Rear cogs are smaller and spaced closey together enough in size that the ramps can catch right away with small amounts of spring force. In the front, the rings jump so greatly in size there is no ramp overlap. It would require an inmensly heavier spring to be able to move the chain with enough force for the ramps to even begin to catch. This would also have the side effect of making shifting horribly heavy in the other direction to overcome the spring.

    "Or ... you could swap around the trigger action on either derailleur to make it work the same????"

    Well sure you could. The difference is by doing it in the derrailleur all you need to do is invert the way the spring attaches to the parallelograms. In the case of the shifterts you need to redesign and reengineer the entire shifthing mechanism to work the other way around. It would also negate the advantages of having the spring work in RR mode.

    "If Shimano was so worried about beginners, they'd put Rapid Rise into their lowest lines along with backwards throttle shifters that they put on comfy bikes. They would also reverse the pull direction on their internally geared hubs."

    Shimano works by trickle down. My guess its only a matter of time. Pull direction on internally geared hubs is rather irrelevant since there is no derrailleur issues to take inot account and generally no front rings to match the movement.

    "Honestly, I really don't think it matters because these are all conditioned movements anyway. Most people shift the rear derailleur most of the time. You'll NEVER catch a beginner switching to a separate ring to crossing up the chainline.

    Your typical XTR users KNOW how to use a bike already. They don't need Shimano teaching them a newer "better" system"

    Thats what I said its all a matter of conditioning.
    However, STI shifting is not exclusive of XTR. There are now XT, LX, and saint, and you can bet there will be plenty of newbies buying XT and LX bikes (n some XTR). Never take for granted what a newbie will or will not do. Many actually don't use the fron't much because they simply don't understand how it works in relation the rear, one of the issue somewhat addressed.

  23. #23
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Shimano's next commercial ...

    Quote Originally Posted by frank n. beans
    You know, I do exhibit some ape-like tendencies. Maybe it is from using thumb shifters for too long.
    The apes are all flinging trigger shifters at each other and brake levers. THEN, you here the Asun Sprach ....

    The STI monolith APPEARS ...

    DUM.dum.DUM.dum.DUM.dum.DUM.dum

    The apes have evolved, the now use ONE lever instead of trigger and levers.

    DUM.dum.DUM.dum.DUM.dum.DUM.dum

    Then the ape families starve because STI cause so MUCH!!!!!

    And the chorus ...

    The apes live in a pile of perfectly capable but incompatible components. The master ape has banned them in favor of STI. The single ape rides off into the sunset seen constantly playing with his barrel adjuster because he isn't using ESP.

    DAHHHH, DAHHH, DAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!

  24. #24
    Chrome Toaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    A) I'm not all that concerned with weight weenies.

    B) You're kidding me on the cost of XTR vs the cost of SRAM X.0. The Shimano XTR shifter alone is $400 for hydro disc brakes. $310 for cable actuated. The Derailleur is $120.

    XTR Discs are $120 per axle. And you're stuck with Shimano.


    A SRAM X.0 derailleur and shifter package costs $190 on Pricepoint.

    Hmmm

    XTR
    ---------------
    $400 Hydro STI shifters
    $120 Derailleur
    $240 Brakes (2 axles)
    ------------
    $760


    SRAM
    ---------------
    $190 Shifters and Derailleur
    $240 Juicy 5 Brakes (2 axles)
    ---------
    $430


    We could argue about Juicy 5 vs Shimano XTR all day. But you can't put Shimano XTR against Juicy 7s because Shimano doesn't have the contact point adjustment like the Juicy 7s.

    As far as the 2006 stuff goes, it's not out in retailers yet.
    2006 X.0 derrailleur $200
    2006 X.0 triggers $200
    High end disc brakes ~ $200 or + per wheel
    New Sram pricing policy,no advertising under msrp, just like shimano.

    Total = over $760.
    Regardless of whether it was a few bucks more or less we are no longer taking peanuts here. Sram is or has become as out of this world expensive as the big S.

  25. #25
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Let's think about this for a second ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    "If the direction was the problem, why not simply switch the spring direction on the front derailleur???? "

    Because its more practical to do it in the rear than in the front. Rear cogs are smaller and spaced closey together enough in size that the ramps can catch right away with small amounts of spring force. In the front, the rings jump so greatly in size there is no ramp overlap. It would require an inmensly heavier spring to be able to move the chain with enough force for the ramps to even begin to catch. This would also have the side effect of making shifting horribly heavy in the other direction to overcome the spring.

    "Or ... you could swap around the trigger action on either derailleur to make it work the same????"

    Well sure you could. The difference is by doing it in the derrailleur all you need to do is invert the way the spring attaches to the parallelograms. In the case of the shifterts you need to redesign and reengineer the entire shifthing mechanism to work the other way around. It would also negate the advantages of having the spring work in RR mode.

    "If Shimano was so worried about beginners, they'd put Rapid Rise into their lowest lines along with backwards throttle shifters that they put on comfy bikes. They would also reverse the pull direction on their internally geared hubs."

    Shimano works by trickle down. My guess its only a matter of time. Pull direction on internally geared hubs is rather irrelevant since there is no derrailleur issues to take inot account and generally no front rings to match the movement.

    "Honestly, I really don't think it matters because these are all conditioned movements anyway. Most people shift the rear derailleur most of the time. You'll NEVER catch a beginner switching to a separate ring to crossing up the chainline.

    Your typical XTR users KNOW how to use a bike already. They don't need Shimano teaching them a newer "better" system"

    Thats what I said its all a matter of conditioning.
    However, STI shifting is not exclusive of XTR. There are now XT, LX, and saint, and you can bet there will be plenty of newbies buying XT and LX bikes (n some XTR). Never take for granted what a newbie will or will not do. Many actually don't use the fron't much because they simply don't understand how it works in relation the rear, one of the issue somewhat addressed.

    So as opposed to changing the directions around so that the expensive rear derailleurs have to change ... why not change the direction in the FRONT derailleur. That is, if you think that ergonomics is a motivating factor???

    And if it IS a motivating factor, than they would be pushing this "innovation" to the meat of the bicycle buying public ... the COMFY bikes (along with their Revo Shift SRAM knockoffs).

    The direction of the derailleurs challenged me for about a week. Then I got used to it. And I'm rather fond to the notion of "grabbing bigger gears" whether that be with a throttle or a thumb.

    OH BTW, if SRAM has a "top down" model, why didn't they introduce Revo-Shift and internally geared hubs in XTR and then move it progressively down until it reached the comfort bikes????

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