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  1. #1
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    Availability/price of 9 speed components with the 10 speed movement?

    Looks like 2011 will be an even bigger year for 10 speed components:

    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...for-2011-23307

    What does the 10 speed push do to the availability and prices of 9 speed components? Does inventory get dumped by merchants, meaning lower prices or does everyone try to snatch up a limited supply, increasing prices? What happened with the move from 8 to 9 speeds?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by eneff
    Looks like 2011 will be an even bigger year for 10 speed components:

    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...for-2011-23307

    What does the 10 speed push do to the availability and prices of 9 speed components? Does inventory get dumped by merchants, meaning lower prices or does everyone try to snatch up a limited supply, increasing prices? What happened with the move from 8 to 9 speeds?
    Look around. How long has it been since you saw any x-9 or xt level 8 speed stuff produced? I'll bet it won't be three years till the same is true with 9 speed.

    F#cking stupid.

  3. #3
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    Sometimes I wish they'd stop making "improvements"
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Look around. How long has it been since you saw any x-9 or xt level 8 speed stuff produced? I'll bet it won't be three years till the same is true with 9 speed.

    F#cking stupid.
    SRAM never had X9-level 8-speed equipment. As for Shimano, they continued making the 8-speed XT cassette for several years, and their 9sp derailleurs are backwards-compatible to 8sp and even 7sp. Current XT RDs will sync up fine to your venerable XT 7-speed top-mount thumbshifter, if that's what turns you on.

    In the bigger picture, I can name several saddles and tires I really liked that you cannot get anymore either, but that's life. Anyone here homeless, starving and jobless in Haiti? Oh, your worst problem is that your obsolete cassette isn't available in an XT variant anymore? *world's smallest violin*

    To answer the main question, I predict you'll see the 9-speed XTR and XT available at discounted prices, but the cassettes will still be manufactured for a few years after the changeover. Look at Dura-Ace 7700 or Ultegra 6500 for a parallel... the original cassettes, chains and chainrings are still being manufactured, and that stuff was superceded by the 10-speed groups back in 2004.

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    My feeling is that there is even less enthusiasm for 10 speed than there was for 9 speed, so it's hard to know what will happen with pricing. There has to come a point where the market pushes back and says this is just getting silly. Right now you have some racers that want 2x10 and you have 29ers that want the bigger cog (cuz they apparently can't handle getting them big wheels up hills), but I don't see a whole lot of others eager to get 10 speed (except noobs that are suckers for the more-is-better marketing). Eventually there's going to be a big enough less-is-more movement to push some manufacturer to take a step back, though that may not be until 11 or 12 speed. It's really strange to be going to 10 speed at the same time that singe-speeding continues to gain in popularity.

    Unfortunately, the "Market" only gets to speak through aftermarket component purchases, and that's a small part of the overall market. The bike manufacturers will jump on 10-speed, so we won't really get to "vote" when we buy a new bike. And many that would rather have 8 or 9 speed will buy 10 speed just to avoid the problems of obsolescence. It's almost like we don't have a choice
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    Right now you have some racers that want 2x10 and you have 29ers that want the bigger cog (cuz they apparently can't handle getting them big wheels up hills), but I don't see a whole lot of others eager to get 10 speed (except noobs that are suckers for the more-is-better marketing).
    If you've ever wished for one lower gear on the cassette so you didn't have to bail to the granny ring, that's what the 11-36 offers. Heck, maybe they'll make it in 9sp as well There's already 12-36, so here's hoping. I wish I had a dollar for every time my group has been stalled on a steep climb because someone at the front HAD to dump to granny, and lost momentum, traction or steering/balance in the process (or had chainsuck or a dropped chain).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    If you've ever wished for one lower gear on the cassette so you didn't have to bail to the granny ring, that's what the 11-36 offers. Heck, maybe they'll make it in 9sp as well There's already 12-36, so here's hoping. I wish I had a dollar for every time my group has been stalled on a steep climb because someone at the front HAD to dump to granny, and lost momentum, traction or steering/balance in the process (or had chainsuck or a dropped chain).
    I think the idea is to go to the granny before you run out of gears, but for those that are challenged in that area, will a 36t cog really save the day. Or do you eventually want to get to 40 or 44 with 12 or 14 speed. Sure the cassettes will weigh a pound, but who cares about that stuff as long as you don't have to use that complicated front derailleur.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    Look at Dura-Ace 7700 or Ultegra 6500 for a parallel... the original cassettes, chains and chainrings are still being manufactured, and that stuff was superceded by the 10-speed groups back in 2004.
    Show me where a shop can get 9spd road stuff better than Tiagra...

    A customer brought in a road bike that needed a new Ultegra rear shifter and we couldn't get one through bti, quality, SBS, j&b... Bill asked why no one "carried" them anymore and they all said the same thing. "Shimano doesn't produce them."

    When the 10spd stuff went from DA only to Ultegra and 105. 9spd was obsolete and done for any higher end components.

    Fahn
    Hubbard Bike Club

  9. #9
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    10 speed for mountain biking is not a "movement,' it's a scam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    SRAM never had X9-level 8-speed equipment. As for Shimano, they continued making the 8-speed XT cassette for several years, and their 9sp derailleurs are backwards-compatible to 8sp and even 7sp.
    I said x-9 LEVEL. But if you want to nitpick, 9.0 was the equivalent, and they did make 8 speed shifters. But what you said just furthers my point: As SRAM became a real player in the higher end drivetrain components, they did not even bother much with higher end 8-speed as 9 was the new thing. Yes, there was 8 speed xt for a little while after xt 9 came out, but it has been a long time. But whether or not SRAM ever made x-9 level 8 speed is really beside the point. The point is that is has been a long time since ANYONE has.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    If you've ever wished for one lower gear on the cassette so you didn't have to bail to the granny ring, that's what the 11-36 offers. Heck, maybe they'll make it in 9sp as well There's already 12-36, so here's hoping. I wish I had a dollar for every time my group has been stalled on a steep climb because someone at the front HAD to dump to granny, and lost momentum, traction or steering/balance in the process (or had chainsuck or a dropped chain).
    36t cog is not "one gear" lower than 34t. It is about a half a gear.

    But I agree, I do think an 11-36 cog is a great idea. But I would prefer it in 9sp, or better yet, 8 speed. an 11-34 9sp is already far more closely spaced in terms of ratios than I need or even want.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFahn
    Show me where a shop can get 9spd road stuff better than Tiagra...
    QBP still carries the chains, cassettes and chainrings, as does Shimano America. For rear derailleurs, the 10sp RD is backwards-compatible to 9sp. For front derailleurs, the 10sp 6600 family is backwards-compatible, although the cage is a hair narrower and may rub in one more gear combo... if that bugs your customer, you can switch to a narrower 10sp chain to compensate, or add a spacer to the cage's tailscrew to widen it at the rear.

    For shifters, yeah, you'll eventually hit a dead end if you cannot accept a lower-level substitute such as Tiagra. What was the matter with your customer's shifters?

    Yes, there was 8 speed xt for a little while after xt 9 came out, but it has been a long time
    No, it has not been a long time. They were available until pretty recently. If you have to have authentic XT-level 9sp cassettes, figure out how many you use per year, then stockpile them, because coming to MTBR to object to the inevitable will not solve anything. There aren't many companies that support everything they ever made for ever and ever, it's just how things are.

    In the bigger picture, I think we're seeing the beginning of a fundamental shift (no pun intended) to 2-ring systems on mountain bikes, just like we're rapidly seeing the shift away from road triples to compact doubles in the road market. Anyone see the new SRAM Apex group yet? Compact road double with an 11-32 cassette option, way lighter than the competition's road-triple setup and less complicated to drive. At any rate, super-widerange cassettes are part of the equation for 2 x whatever on mountain bikes, so slapping a 36 onto the end of a 9-speed 11-32 makes sense in light of that.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    36t cog is not "one gear" lower than 34t. It is about a half a gear.
    True, if you use a 34 in the first place Being a bit of a gear-masher, I use 11-32 with a 32-44 combo, and may even switch to an 11-28 on my XC race bike. My average speed in the local XC race series last year was around 17mph, there is absolutely no point in anything lower than a 1:1 gear for that bike's mission.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah
    10 speed for mountain biking is not a "movement,' it's a scam.
    So are disc brakes and rear suspension. After all, *I* don't use them, so obviously no one else could possibly have a use for them either.



    Just sayin'

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    True, if you use a 34 in the first place Being a bit of a gear-masher, I use 11-32 with a 32-44 combo, and may even switch to an 11-28 on my XC race bike. My average speed in the local XC race series last year was around 17mph, there is absolutely no point in anything lower than a 1:1 gear for that bike's mission.
    Well, if you do not use a 34t in the first place, what is the big deal about the option of a 36t?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    No, it has not been a long time. They were available until pretty recently. .
    No, it has been quite some time. I guess is depends what you consider recently. It has been years since I saw new xt cassettes for sale, and those were with 30t max cog.

    because coming to MTBR to object to the inevitable will not solve anything.
    That is a really sad sentiment. Just line up with the rest of the sheeple and take whatever the marketing departments tells me I need/want without expressing what I think of it? No thanks.

    Expressing opinions about products (or anything else, for that matter) is the one thing you can do to affect there development and availability.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Well, if you do not use a 34t in the first place, what is the big deal about the option of a 36t?
    For me personally, the 36 is not beneficial at all. But two-chainring setups offer a lot of benefits (chainline, Q-factor, FD-to-tire clearance, fewer opportunities for chainsuck/drop, and likely a bit lower weight). The extra-wide cassette range is probably going to be necessary for most people to run a 2-ring setup without feeling like they've lost their granny ratios, so the 11-36 ends up being an important part of the picture for the market as a whole.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    No, it has been quite some time. I guess is depends what you consider recently. It has been years since I saw new xt cassettes for sale, and those were with 30t max cog.


    That is a really sad sentiment. Just line up with the rest of the sheeple and take whatever the marketing departments tells me I need/want without expressing what I think of it? No thanks.

    Expressing opinions about products (or anything else, for that matter) is the one thing you can do to affect there development and availability.
    By all means contact Mercedes at Shimano and tell her your views. Good luck.

    And considering that 8-speed XT was EOL'ed back in 1999, which is more than 10 years ago, yes, it's amazing they had even the 11-30 available as recently as two years ago. If you wanted to stockpile the dasm things, you had plenty of time. And tell me, how long would YOU continue creating XT cassettes for that 0.1% of the market that not only has 8-speed XT, but freaks out that they have to use a lesser 8-speed cassette instead of the original item? What would you tell your shareholders about the economics of that decision? "Oh hai, we decided to take your money and throw it down a hole, kthxbye"

    Face it. They're a corporation. They're not going to keep making replacement parts forever. And they're not going to stop innovating, competing, and creating new stuff either. Now go Google the serenity prayer

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    By all means contact Mercedes at Shimano and tell her your views. Good luck.

    And considering that 8-speed XT was EOL'ed back in 1999, which is more than 10 years ago, yes, it's amazing they had even the 11-30 available as recently as two years ago. If you wanted to stockpile the dasm things, you had plenty of time. And tell me, how long would YOU continue creating XT cassettes for that 0.1% of the market that not only has 8-speed XT, but freaks out that they have to use a lesser 8-speed cassette instead of the original item? What would you tell your shareholders about the economics of that decision? "Oh hai, we decided to take your money and throw it down a hole, kthxbye"

    Face it. They're a corporation. They're not going to keep making replacement parts forever. And they're not going to stop innovating, competing, and creating new stuff either. Now go Google the serenity prayer
    They sell what we will buy. If enough people think it is not what they want, they will offer alternatives. I am trying (not so much here, but in other threads, as well as off-line) to convince people to think if this is really what they want. Unless you value closely spaced gear ratios (I understand some do, but some really don't, or even dislike them), I do not see the benefit, only drawbacks.

    When SRAM first put out the xx group, they did not offer grip shifters with them. I read an article where one of their designers said that ergonomically, twisties were simply inferior, and in hi swords "the future looks like triggers" or something very close to that, and did not plan to produce them. A lot of people were disappointed, said so, and guess what? They are now planning to offer them. People expressing their opinions can make a difference.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    For me personally, the 36 is not beneficial at all. But two-chainring setups offer a lot of benefits (chainline, Q-factor, FD-to-tire clearance, fewer opportunities for chainsuck/drop, and likely a bit lower weight). The extra-wide cassette range is probably going to be necessary for most people to run a 2-ring setup without feeling like they've lost their granny ratios, so the 11-36 ends up being an important part of the picture for the market as a whole.
    I agree. I think 2 ring setups with a wider range cassette is a good idea.

    I just wish they would have done it with 8 or 9 speed.

  21. #21
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    They sell what we will buy. If enough people think it is not what they want, they will offer alternatives. I am trying (not so much here, but in other threads, as well as off-line) to convince people to think if this is really what they want. Unless you value closely spaced gear ratios (I understand some do, but some really don't, or even dislike them), I do not see the benefit, only drawbacks.

    When SRAM first put out the xx group, they did not offer grip shifters with them. I read an article where one of their designers said that ergonomically, twisties were simply inferior, and in hi swords "the future looks like triggers" or something very close to that, and did not plan to produce them. A lot of people were disappointed, said so, and guess what? They are now planning to offer them. People expressing their opinions can make a difference.
    I've been an LBS mechanic for over 20 years. There has never been any significant grass-roots mass consumer-level resistance to new-gen stuff with another cog added, either road or mountain. 6-speed to 7-speed. 7-speed to 8-speed. 8-speed to 9-speed. Based on past history, I'm calling it like I see it.

    You're on the Internet, and it's easy to find a few loud voices who'll agree with you here, but I'm the guy who handles thousands of bikes a year. 8-speed XT is now very rare in the wild, if you didn't know that. You say "they sell what we will buy." Well I can tell you that the demand for 8-speed XT-level parts is basically a big fat zero at the LBS, whether it's XT cassettes, XT cantilever brakes, XT shift pods, or any other part of the system. Any of our customers who do have that stuff today, they have no problem accepting a functionally-equivalent and probably cheaper item like a SRAM PG830 or Shimano HG-series cassette, any chain we suggest, any brake pad, and any compatible Shimano shift pod.

    I also want a straight answer to my question. If you were responsible for Shimano Corporation's policies, how far back would you be supporting XT? Would you support 8-speed? Evidently yes, since you think their ~14-year production run of that cassette was insufficient.

    How about 7-speed XT, then? I mean heck, it was a home-run hit in its day. Hyperglide shifting was so incredible that I bought the first HG-equipped bike I ever built, an '89 Schwinn Sierra Comp with Shimano MountainLX, just for the shifting. Would you be supporting that? Woohooo, we're bringin' back the Biopace chainrings, this should sell GREAT.

    And what about 6-speed, with the Uniglide cassettes? It was a revolution in the history of the ATB to get mainstream freehub systems. Would you be supporting that today? Believe it or not, I do occasionally have people pester me for Uniglide 6-speed cassettes...

    And what about the deer-head XT stuff? Ever seen an XT SuperPlate RD? There might be people who want those. Would you be supporting that today?

    At some point it gets silly, doesn't it? Personally, I think Shimano should take a page from Microsoft's Product Support Lifecycle playbook, and publish a guide explaining "OK, this is how we determine how long we'll be producing exact replacement shifters. And here's our policy for cassettes and chains. And here's our policy for chainrings," and then people would be able to look it up and know what to expect.

  22. #22
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    2-ring setups rock, But . . .

    It's not what you think. Sure, there has recently been a lot of interest in 2-ring racing setups, but 2-rings have been popular for quite some time, but they have been the granny and middle with a bash. I'm quite certain there are more of these 2-ring setups currently used on mtbs than middle-big setups. And these 2-ring setups don't need a 36t cog (I won't even use a 34t cog). I'm not saying that the middle-big 2-ring setups don't have a place, but there's a lot more to mountain biking than "fast XC". It was great that Shimano came out with the 22-36-bash SLX crankset a couple years back. Obviously they realized the market is getting diverse. I'm hoping they keep this in mind when they consider across-the-board drivetrain changes like 10-speed.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    It's not what you think. Sure, there has recently been a lot of interest in 2-ring racing setups, but 2-rings have been popular for quite some time, but they have been the granny and middle with a bash. I'm quite certain there are more of these 2-ring setups currently used on mtbs than middle-big setups. And these 2-ring setups don't need a 36t cog (I won't even use a 34t cog). I'm not saying that the middle-big 2-ring setups don't have a place, but there's a lot more to mountain biking than "fast XC". It was great that Shimano came out with the 22-36-bash SLX crankset a couple years back. Obviously they realized the market is getting diverse. I'm hoping they keep this in mind when they consider across-the-board drivetrain changes like 10-speed.

    I'd even suggest that for 95% of racers a "2X" with anything bigger in front than a 22 to 26 granny paired with a 34-38 middle as a "big" is too much gearing. I see much more "stalling" up a climb, even our small climbs here in WI, from people trying to tough out a middle or big ring than someone spinning a small gear.

    Our fastest elite guys are SS'ers running 36 x 16-20 depending on the course. JHK was running a 26/38 much of the last couple of years.
    You can't depend on honest answers from dependant hands...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Live
    I'd even suggest that for 95% of racers a "2X" with anything bigger in front than a 22 to 26 granny paired with a 34-38 middle as a "big" is too much gearing. I see much more "stalling" up a climb, even our small climbs here in WI, from people trying to tough out a middle or big ring than someone spinning a small gear.

    Our fastest elite guys are SS'ers running 36 x 16-20 depending on the course. JHK was running a 26/38 much of the last couple of years.
    To keep up with my two main adversaries at our local XC series (a fast expert and a semi-pro), using a 36-16, I'd need to hit cadences of 120-140rpm on the fast flat/rolling sections (basically not feasible, I don't spin well). I'm guessing your guys's courses are more interesting than ours, though we have too much fireroad and not enough singletrack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    S
    Anyone here homeless, starving and jobless in Haiti? Oh, your worst problem is that your obsolete cassette isn't available in an XT variant anymore? *world's smallest violin*
    You brought Haiti into the discussion. Jezz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt 891
    29 inch wheels are a crutch for riders with sub-par skills.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    So are disc brakes and rear suspension. After all, *I* don't use them, so obviously no one else could possibly have a use for them either.



    Just sayin'
    Disc brakes and rear suspension are honest improvements. 10 speed is a just another gear (that is poised to be shoved down mountain bikers' throats by the way.) Now, if we were all single speed and someone was offering gears, THEN we could compare that change to disc brakes or rear suspension. But you are offering nothing but a false analogy.

    As I will continue to rightfully say, 10 speed is not needed in mountain biking.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    I've been an LBS mechanic for over 20 years.
    So what.

    Moreover, the adoption of ten speed is to your economic advantage because your employer will make more money needlessly chainging out drivetrains and shifters for those who mistakenly think they need 10 speed. Just because Shimano and SRAM want to make this crap doesn't mean that it should be accepted or is even needed.

    10 speed is a scam based on nothing but faux claims of better shifting and a 36 tooth cog.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah
    So what.
    The point is, I've seen all the transitions from 6-speed onward, and the vast majority of consumers aren't up in arms about it. Your claims about how it's not "needed" could be applied to any of those transitions, as well as to numerous other advancements, not just the transition from 9-speed to 10.

    Moreover, the adoption of ten speed is to your economic advantage because your employer will make more money needlessly chainging out drivetrains and shifters for those who mistakenly think they need 10 speed.
    Looking back one generation, to the transition from 8-speed to 9-speed, not many people were going out and changing drivetrains in order to buy into the 9-speed thing "just because." The expanded gear range (hmmm, sounds familiar somehow) of the MegaRange 11-34 cassettes you probably use today, are thanks to Shimano and SRAM not just saying "welp, we made 8-speed, better stop right there!" Shimano did retro-grade MegaRange backwards to 7-speed and 8-speed, but 9-speed was first.

    Just because Shimano and SRAM want to make this crap doesn't mean that it should be accepted or is even needed.

    10 speed is a scam based on nothing but faux claims of better shifting and a 36 tooth cog.
    I think most people don't really care that much, and unfortunately for you, they're going to buy that silly 2 x 10 stuff and probably find that they like it. I'll be glad to get off my hacked 2 x 9 system with the crummy chainline and Q-factor, and move on to something designed to do that natively.

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    mechBgon ( seriously not tryin to bandwagon-bash, just replying to your 'violin')...
    Go ahead, get your 11-speed in the guise of 'progress' - I'll continue to scour for 8-speed parts because most of my stuff still works great..(*I gotta toss an 8-spd shifter that works great and spend more $$? - not no mention the strengths of 8-spd for mtb. - namely ratio and chain strength [i know... ])
    I hope you'll let me know when they make hubs out of cassettes and have spoke-derailleurs - because THAT'S innovation!

    (BTW, do you ride a belt-drive? )
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    mechBgon ( seriously not tryin to bandwagon-bash, just replying to your 'violin')...
    Go ahead, get your 11-speed in the guise of 'progress'.
    I hope you'll let me know when they make hubs out of cassettes and have spoke-derailleurs - because THAT'S innovation!

    (BTW, do you ride a belt-drive? )
    HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THE BELT-DRIVE?!?!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THE BELT-DRIVE?!?!
    heh, my old DeWalt band-saw is belt-driven...*(quiet as moths humping in their parents' cocooney basement)...so was I, as a kid, come to think of it - (belt-driven, that is ... )
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    The point is, I've seen all the transitions from 6-speed onward, and the vast majority of consumers aren't up in arms about it. Your claims about how it's not "needed" could be applied to any of those transitions, as well as to numerous other advancements, not just the transition from 9-speed to 10.



    Looking back one generation, to the transition from 8-speed to 9-speed, not many people were going out and changing drivetrains in order to buy into the 9-speed thing "just because." The expanded gear range (hmmm, sounds familiar somehow) of the MegaRange 11-34 cassettes you probably use today, are thanks to Shimano and SRAM not just saying "welp, we made 8-speed, better stop right there!" Shimano did retro-grade MegaRange backwards to 7-speed and 8-speed, but 9-speed was first.



    I think most people don't really care that much, and unfortunately for you, they're going to buy that silly 2 x 10 stuff and probably find that they like it. I'll be glad to get off my hacked 2 x 9 system with the crummy chainline and Q-factor, and move on to something designed to do that natively.

    Most will continue to run a three ring system which does not need a tenth gear. The only people I can imagine wanting a tenth gear would be a those only running one front ring. Certainly, a tenth gear is not needed if you are running middle and small.

    What is your set-up? Are you running a middle and big?

  33. #33
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    I miss 6 speed non indexed shifting and Mafac brakes...and Pee Wee's Playhouse on Saturday morning.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    I also want a straight answer to my question. If you were responsible for Shimano Corporation's policies, how far back would you be supporting XT? Would you support 8-speed? Evidently yes, since you think their ~14-year production run of that cassette was insufficient.
    You are missing the point. Sure, I would not continue to produce it for all that long once I had discontinued it, and therefore had made demand for it very small. And that just supports the point I have been making from the beginning (which addressed the OP’s question). You can kiss 9 speed goodbye, it will not be something that is very supported in the future. I am not saying they should continue to support 9 speed indefinitely for there own bottom line, I am saying they won’t. We seem to be in agreement on this.

    Regarding the lack of demand for 8-speed parts: OF COURSE there has been very limited need for high end 8 speed stuff for years, because it has been a decade since high end bike CAME with 8 speed drivetrains. Your logic is circular. You are saying that everyone loved 9 speed because no one is looking for 8 speed parts, but if you spec all the new higher end bikes with 9 speed, why would they be looking for high end 8 speed replacement parts? It’s like only selling chocolate ice cream, and using the lack of vanilla sales to say that nobody wants vanilla. Or only selling Yugos, and using the fact that no-one is looking for Honda parts as proof that people must prefer Yugos, and no one misses the Hondas.

    Maybe as a shop mechanic you were able to find new 8 speed stuff as of 2 years ago, but I can tell you from a mere mortal consumer's standpoint, the high end options were very, very limited for a lot longer than that. And again, it has only been 30t max 8 speeds that I could find for many years now.

    As far as the rest of the examples, to simply frame it as an issue of supporting or not supporting new technologies is showing a lack of understanding of the individual issues people may have with them. If you are going to dismiss people as luddites, you ought to know more about them, first.

    I think that 9 speed did not really serve the needs of most riders better. I feel the same way about 10 speed. IMO, the only advantage seen in these two "progressions" has been the increase in cassette range, but that could have been easily done with 8 or 9. The same is true for being able to run a double crank. People have done that for years with 8 and 9 speed drivetrains. It just took crank manufacturers a ridiculously long time to get their heads out of their a$$es and realize this. They were WAY behind the curve on this. This could have been done years ago with 8 or 9 speed (they did it on roads bikes, why not MTB?).

    Of course, whether or not we NEED progressively more cogs on our cassettes would not be such a concern if it were simple an additional gear with no downside. However, many people find that is not the case. My own experience is that 9 speed requires more frequent chain and cassette replacement. Also, it is less tolerant of less-than-optimal cable tension and cable/housing condition. The difference is not huge, but seeing as I see no benefit to the extra gear, it is not a worthwhile compromise. I anticipate that this is where you say that as a mechanic you see no difference in the wear and sensitivity to set up, so I will point out preemptively that there are others in your position that that do see a difference. This is among the top 5 most argued about topics on MTBR, so I am not interested in re-hashing it here.

    I am sorry if you have issues with people expressing this view about 9, and now 10 sp, but you just going to have to deal with it. To say that there is no point stating opinions about the new products is frankly just condescending and rude. If opinions do not matter, why are you responding to anything I am saying? If riders needs do not have any effect on what is produced, then why did SRAM change their minds about an XX gripshifter? How about the single speed movement? Are you telling me that was not a response to (as you call it "grassroots") rider demand and opinion?

    I think you forget that one major purpose of online forums is for people to express their views on issues, rather than having them dictated by marketing departments or large media outlets (not that there is anything wrong with either). If you think that on-line discussion of ideas does not have impacts on the markets of new products, you have not been paying attention for the last decade.

    Also, S & S are not the only two companies on the planet that can make drivetrain products. If enough interest is shown in other options besides 10 speed, maybe some smaller company will come out with a high end option for something like 8 speed. Sound silly? That's what people were saying about on-the-fly adjustable seatposts, but enough people expressed a desire for one that someone finally made one that worked.

    If you want to read press releases where everybody blows their shorts stumbling over each other to heap praise over everything that the major players feed us, go read a bike mag. But that is not the purpose of user forums. Further, if we want to talk about the best way for S & S to maximize their profits, there are places for that. But their profits are not my concern.

  35. #35
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    Yeah yeah yeah....

    Sounds to me like you want the manufacturers to not only contiue 8 speed but develop it with more options...that ain't happening...


    Sounds to me like you think the manufacturers will let 9 speed fall by the wayside, and contiue with 10 speed etc....might happen, might not...

    The number of bikes sold with 8 speed was much less than the number of bikes sold with 9 speed....over the production years.....that is what will drive the continuation of 9 speeds, the demand for 9 speed parts....

    Low demand then little development...higher demand then more development...

    It will be interesting to see what happens.

    You may or may not be right about 8 speed being "better" but for most of the world 8 speed turned out to not be "better"

    The manufacturers have given up on many different things over the years, they try to stick with what works for the most people.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Yeah yeah yeah....

    Sounds to me like you want.....
    I think you missed my points.

    Oh, well.
    Last edited by kapusta; 02-22-2010 at 12:44 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    The manufacturers have given up on many different things over the years, they try to stick with what works for the most people.
    That's partly true, but it gets more complicated than that. The manufacturers need to give the perception of "new and improved" to help sell stuff, and must compete with each other. If Shimano stuck with 9-speed after Sram comes out with 10-speed, they will be perceived by the less informed masses as being behind the times. Many people will buy 10-speed over 9-speed just because they assume more is better and new is better. They'll never give any thought as to why it's better or why it may not be better, they just go along like sheep they are.
    I have ridden 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9-speed, and there was noticeable improvement up through 8-speed (in my opinion) in getting a wider range of gears with crisp shifting. There has to be a point where more is no longer better. For me the sweet spot was 8-speed. Others may think it's 9-speed or 7-speed, but the point does exist. For those wanting 10-speed now, what do you think about 11-speed? or 12-speed? Because they will likely come next unless the marketplace get's its head out of its ass and says Stop.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    That's partly true, but it gets more complicated than that. The manufacturers need to give the perception of "new and improved" to help sell stuff, and must compete with each other. If Shimano stuck with 9-speed after Sram comes out with 10-speed, they will be perceived by the less informed masses as being behind the times. Many people will buy 10-speed over 9-speed just because they assume more is better and new is better. They'll never give any thought as to why it's better or why it may not be better, they just go along like sheep they are.
    I have ridden 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9-speed, and there was noticeable improvement up through 8-speed (in my opinion) in getting a wider range of gears with crisp shifting. There has to be a point where more is no longer better. For me the sweet spot was 8-speed. Others may think it's 9-speed or 7-speed, but the point does exist. For those wanting 10-speed now, what do you think about 11-speed? or 12-speed? Because they will likely come next unless the marketplace get's its head out of its ass and says Stop.
    I'm surprised Shimano did not just go straight to 12.

    It's like the number of blades in razors: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    That's partly true, but it gets more complicated than that. The manufacturers need to give the perception of "new and improved" to help sell stuff, and must compete with each other. If Shimano stuck with 9-speed after Sram comes out with 10-speed, they will be perceived by the less informed masses as being behind the times. Many people will buy 10-speed over 9-speed just because they assume more is better and new is better. They'll never give any thought as to why it's better or why it may not be better, they just go along like sheep they are.
    I have ridden 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9-speed, and there was noticeable improvement up through 8-speed (in my opinion) in getting a wider range of gears with crisp shifting. There has to be a point where more is no longer better. For me the sweet spot was 8-speed. Others may think it's 9-speed or 7-speed, but the point does exist. For those wanting 10-speed now, what do you think about 11-speed? or 12-speed? Because they will likely come next unless the marketplace get's its head out of its ass and says Stop.

    I don't know where the optimum point will be the marketplace will decide and that means alot of people are involved in the decision (enough that most don't have theirs heads up there ass)...

    For me I would like some closer ratio's at the top end and a little more range, 22 34 is low enough, I would like a 48 or maybe even a 50 -11....

    If I get that with 10 speeds or 11 speeds, it is light and works well, then I would be happy...

    As it is I run 22/34 and 46/11 right now with 9 speeds, I will go to a 48/11 next swap out...

    Still want a little closer ratio's on the top end though.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    I'm surprised Shimano did not just go straight to 12.

    It's like the number of blades in razors: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930
    Shimano is smarter than you, they would not want to overstep the marketplace.

  41. #41
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    Shimano's intelligence is up there with Toyota's. Not the smartest company on the block, but they will bend you over when they get the chance, and dont' care much about there customers.
    ... And I Am You,
    And What I See Is Me!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildeyes
    Shimano's intelligence is up there with Toyota's. Not the smartest company on the block, but they will bend you over when they get the chance, and dont' care much about there customers.

    So you think that GM is smarter than Toyota????

    Yeah Toyota doesn't care about their customers....yeah Shimano doesn't care about their customers....

    So to become a large company you need to screw over your customers, it that how it works???

    Kinda like SouthWest Air right....Westjet.....

    Can they do better of course who is the worst, well I am betting your company..

  43. #43
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    Hey! I like Bio-pace rings...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildeyes
    Shimano's intelligence is up there with Toyota's. Not the smartest company on the block, but they will bend you over when they get the chance, and dont' care much about there customers.
    Hey, that's just business. There may be some small private businesses that truly care about their customers, but in general, the "corporate world" does not care about their customers. They care about gaining customers and keeping customers and getting customers to buy more stuff from them, but that's it. Sometimes the result of this is actually good for the customer, and sometimes it is not, but none of that weighs in these business decisions. Toyota doesn't care about their customers any more or any less than any other major auto manufacturer. And Shimano doesn't care any more or any less than Sram. It ain't a personal thing, it's just the way business works.

    Now let's see how much further off topic we can move this thread.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    They care about gaining customers and keeping customers and getting customers to buy more stuff from them, but that's it.

    Toyota doesn't care about their customers any more or any less than any other major auto manufacturer. And Shimano doesn't care any more or any less than Sram. It ain't a personal thing, it's just the way business works.

    Even you admit that companies care about customers, it is certain that each corporate culture will care about customers differently...

    So it is quite valid to discuss which company values customers more than another.

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    Looks like SRAM cares more about small groups of vocal idiots than perhaps Shimano'

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...+Cassette.aspx

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Even you admit that companies care about customers, it is certain that each corporate culture will care about customers differently...

    So it is quite valid to discuss which company values customers more than another.
    No, that's not what I was saying. To say that a company cares about its customers implies that they make their decisions based on what is in the best interests of their customers. That's just not the case. They make their decisions based on what is the best interest of the company. Now, it is in their interest to gain new customers and keep existing customers, therefore they care about that. And many times, the things they need to do to accomplish that also end up being in the best interest of the customer. But that's not why they do it. When it comes down to the nitty gritty, they will do whatever is best for their business regardless of whether it is good for their customers or not. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, only that it is.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    No, that's not what I was saying. To say that a company cares about its customers implies that they make their decisions based on what is in the best interests of their customers. That's just not the case. They make their decisions based on what is the best interest of the company. Now, it is in their interest to gain new customers and keep existing customers, therefore they care about that. And many times, the things they need to do to accomplish that also end up being in the best interest of the customer. But that's not why they do it. When it comes down to the nitty gritty, they will do whatever is best for their business regardless of whether it is good for their customers or not. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, only that it is.

    You truely fail to grasp the nature of a symbiotic relationship.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    Looks like SRAM cares more about small groups of vocal idiots than perhaps Shimano'

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...+Cassette.aspx
    Interesting. The highest "level" 8 speed cassette is the same level as the lowest 9 speed.

    Not that there is anything wrong with that.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott
    You truely fail to grasp the nature of a symbiotic relationship.
    His point is that it is not always a symbiotic relationship.

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