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  1. #1
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    Availability/price of 9 speed components with the 10 speed movement?

    Looks like 2011 will be an even bigger year for 10 speed components:

    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...for-2011-23307

    What does the 10 speed push do to the availability and prices of 9 speed components? Does inventory get dumped by merchants, meaning lower prices or does everyone try to snatch up a limited supply, increasing prices? What happened with the move from 8 to 9 speeds?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by eneff
    Looks like 2011 will be an even bigger year for 10 speed components:

    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...for-2011-23307

    What does the 10 speed push do to the availability and prices of 9 speed components? Does inventory get dumped by merchants, meaning lower prices or does everyone try to snatch up a limited supply, increasing prices? What happened with the move from 8 to 9 speeds?
    Look around. How long has it been since you saw any x-9 or xt level 8 speed stuff produced? I'll bet it won't be three years till the same is true with 9 speed.

    F#cking stupid.

  3. #3
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    Sometimes I wish they'd stop making "improvements"
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Look around. How long has it been since you saw any x-9 or xt level 8 speed stuff produced? I'll bet it won't be three years till the same is true with 9 speed.

    F#cking stupid.
    SRAM never had X9-level 8-speed equipment. As for Shimano, they continued making the 8-speed XT cassette for several years, and their 9sp derailleurs are backwards-compatible to 8sp and even 7sp. Current XT RDs will sync up fine to your venerable XT 7-speed top-mount thumbshifter, if that's what turns you on.

    In the bigger picture, I can name several saddles and tires I really liked that you cannot get anymore either, but that's life. Anyone here homeless, starving and jobless in Haiti? Oh, your worst problem is that your obsolete cassette isn't available in an XT variant anymore? *world's smallest violin*

    To answer the main question, I predict you'll see the 9-speed XTR and XT available at discounted prices, but the cassettes will still be manufactured for a few years after the changeover. Look at Dura-Ace 7700 or Ultegra 6500 for a parallel... the original cassettes, chains and chainrings are still being manufactured, and that stuff was superceded by the 10-speed groups back in 2004.

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    My feeling is that there is even less enthusiasm for 10 speed than there was for 9 speed, so it's hard to know what will happen with pricing. There has to come a point where the market pushes back and says this is just getting silly. Right now you have some racers that want 2x10 and you have 29ers that want the bigger cog (cuz they apparently can't handle getting them big wheels up hills), but I don't see a whole lot of others eager to get 10 speed (except noobs that are suckers for the more-is-better marketing). Eventually there's going to be a big enough less-is-more movement to push some manufacturer to take a step back, though that may not be until 11 or 12 speed. It's really strange to be going to 10 speed at the same time that singe-speeding continues to gain in popularity.

    Unfortunately, the "Market" only gets to speak through aftermarket component purchases, and that's a small part of the overall market. The bike manufacturers will jump on 10-speed, so we won't really get to "vote" when we buy a new bike. And many that would rather have 8 or 9 speed will buy 10 speed just to avoid the problems of obsolescence. It's almost like we don't have a choice
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    Right now you have some racers that want 2x10 and you have 29ers that want the bigger cog (cuz they apparently can't handle getting them big wheels up hills), but I don't see a whole lot of others eager to get 10 speed (except noobs that are suckers for the more-is-better marketing).
    If you've ever wished for one lower gear on the cassette so you didn't have to bail to the granny ring, that's what the 11-36 offers. Heck, maybe they'll make it in 9sp as well There's already 12-36, so here's hoping. I wish I had a dollar for every time my group has been stalled on a steep climb because someone at the front HAD to dump to granny, and lost momentum, traction or steering/balance in the process (or had chainsuck or a dropped chain).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    If you've ever wished for one lower gear on the cassette so you didn't have to bail to the granny ring, that's what the 11-36 offers. Heck, maybe they'll make it in 9sp as well There's already 12-36, so here's hoping. I wish I had a dollar for every time my group has been stalled on a steep climb because someone at the front HAD to dump to granny, and lost momentum, traction or steering/balance in the process (or had chainsuck or a dropped chain).
    I think the idea is to go to the granny before you run out of gears, but for those that are challenged in that area, will a 36t cog really save the day. Or do you eventually want to get to 40 or 44 with 12 or 14 speed. Sure the cassettes will weigh a pound, but who cares about that stuff as long as you don't have to use that complicated front derailleur.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    Look at Dura-Ace 7700 or Ultegra 6500 for a parallel... the original cassettes, chains and chainrings are still being manufactured, and that stuff was superceded by the 10-speed groups back in 2004.
    Show me where a shop can get 9spd road stuff better than Tiagra...

    A customer brought in a road bike that needed a new Ultegra rear shifter and we couldn't get one through bti, quality, SBS, j&b... Bill asked why no one "carried" them anymore and they all said the same thing. "Shimano doesn't produce them."

    When the 10spd stuff went from DA only to Ultegra and 105. 9spd was obsolete and done for any higher end components.

    Fahn

  9. #9
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    10 speed for mountain biking is not a "movement,' it's a scam.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    SRAM never had X9-level 8-speed equipment. As for Shimano, they continued making the 8-speed XT cassette for several years, and their 9sp derailleurs are backwards-compatible to 8sp and even 7sp.
    I said x-9 LEVEL. But if you want to nitpick, 9.0 was the equivalent, and they did make 8 speed shifters. But what you said just furthers my point: As SRAM became a real player in the higher end drivetrain components, they did not even bother much with higher end 8-speed as 9 was the new thing. Yes, there was 8 speed xt for a little while after xt 9 came out, but it has been a long time. But whether or not SRAM ever made x-9 level 8 speed is really beside the point. The point is that is has been a long time since ANYONE has.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    If you've ever wished for one lower gear on the cassette so you didn't have to bail to the granny ring, that's what the 11-36 offers. Heck, maybe they'll make it in 9sp as well There's already 12-36, so here's hoping. I wish I had a dollar for every time my group has been stalled on a steep climb because someone at the front HAD to dump to granny, and lost momentum, traction or steering/balance in the process (or had chainsuck or a dropped chain).
    36t cog is not "one gear" lower than 34t. It is about a half a gear.

    But I agree, I do think an 11-36 cog is a great idea. But I would prefer it in 9sp, or better yet, 8 speed. an 11-34 9sp is already far more closely spaced in terms of ratios than I need or even want.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFahn
    Show me where a shop can get 9spd road stuff better than Tiagra...
    QBP still carries the chains, cassettes and chainrings, as does Shimano America. For rear derailleurs, the 10sp RD is backwards-compatible to 9sp. For front derailleurs, the 10sp 6600 family is backwards-compatible, although the cage is a hair narrower and may rub in one more gear combo... if that bugs your customer, you can switch to a narrower 10sp chain to compensate, or add a spacer to the cage's tailscrew to widen it at the rear.

    For shifters, yeah, you'll eventually hit a dead end if you cannot accept a lower-level substitute such as Tiagra. What was the matter with your customer's shifters?

    Yes, there was 8 speed xt for a little while after xt 9 came out, but it has been a long time
    No, it has not been a long time. They were available until pretty recently. If you have to have authentic XT-level 9sp cassettes, figure out how many you use per year, then stockpile them, because coming to MTBR to object to the inevitable will not solve anything. There aren't many companies that support everything they ever made for ever and ever, it's just how things are.

    In the bigger picture, I think we're seeing the beginning of a fundamental shift (no pun intended) to 2-ring systems on mountain bikes, just like we're rapidly seeing the shift away from road triples to compact doubles in the road market. Anyone see the new SRAM Apex group yet? Compact road double with an 11-32 cassette option, way lighter than the competition's road-triple setup and less complicated to drive. At any rate, super-widerange cassettes are part of the equation for 2 x whatever on mountain bikes, so slapping a 36 onto the end of a 9-speed 11-32 makes sense in light of that.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    36t cog is not "one gear" lower than 34t. It is about a half a gear.
    True, if you use a 34 in the first place Being a bit of a gear-masher, I use 11-32 with a 32-44 combo, and may even switch to an 11-28 on my XC race bike. My average speed in the local XC race series last year was around 17mph, there is absolutely no point in anything lower than a 1:1 gear for that bike's mission.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah
    10 speed for mountain biking is not a "movement,' it's a scam.
    So are disc brakes and rear suspension. After all, *I* don't use them, so obviously no one else could possibly have a use for them either.



    Just sayin'

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    True, if you use a 34 in the first place Being a bit of a gear-masher, I use 11-32 with a 32-44 combo, and may even switch to an 11-28 on my XC race bike. My average speed in the local XC race series last year was around 17mph, there is absolutely no point in anything lower than a 1:1 gear for that bike's mission.
    Well, if you do not use a 34t in the first place, what is the big deal about the option of a 36t?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    No, it has not been a long time. They were available until pretty recently. .
    No, it has been quite some time. I guess is depends what you consider recently. It has been years since I saw new xt cassettes for sale, and those were with 30t max cog.

    because coming to MTBR to object to the inevitable will not solve anything.
    That is a really sad sentiment. Just line up with the rest of the sheeple and take whatever the marketing departments tells me I need/want without expressing what I think of it? No thanks.

    Expressing opinions about products (or anything else, for that matter) is the one thing you can do to affect there development and availability.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Well, if you do not use a 34t in the first place, what is the big deal about the option of a 36t?
    For me personally, the 36 is not beneficial at all. But two-chainring setups offer a lot of benefits (chainline, Q-factor, FD-to-tire clearance, fewer opportunities for chainsuck/drop, and likely a bit lower weight). The extra-wide cassette range is probably going to be necessary for most people to run a 2-ring setup without feeling like they've lost their granny ratios, so the 11-36 ends up being an important part of the picture for the market as a whole.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    No, it has been quite some time. I guess is depends what you consider recently. It has been years since I saw new xt cassettes for sale, and those were with 30t max cog.


    That is a really sad sentiment. Just line up with the rest of the sheeple and take whatever the marketing departments tells me I need/want without expressing what I think of it? No thanks.

    Expressing opinions about products (or anything else, for that matter) is the one thing you can do to affect there development and availability.
    By all means contact Mercedes at Shimano and tell her your views. Good luck.

    And considering that 8-speed XT was EOL'ed back in 1999, which is more than 10 years ago, yes, it's amazing they had even the 11-30 available as recently as two years ago. If you wanted to stockpile the dasm things, you had plenty of time. And tell me, how long would YOU continue creating XT cassettes for that 0.1% of the market that not only has 8-speed XT, but freaks out that they have to use a lesser 8-speed cassette instead of the original item? What would you tell your shareholders about the economics of that decision? "Oh hai, we decided to take your money and throw it down a hole, kthxbye"

    Face it. They're a corporation. They're not going to keep making replacement parts forever. And they're not going to stop innovating, competing, and creating new stuff either. Now go Google the serenity prayer

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    By all means contact Mercedes at Shimano and tell her your views. Good luck.

    And considering that 8-speed XT was EOL'ed back in 1999, which is more than 10 years ago, yes, it's amazing they had even the 11-30 available as recently as two years ago. If you wanted to stockpile the dasm things, you had plenty of time. And tell me, how long would YOU continue creating XT cassettes for that 0.1% of the market that not only has 8-speed XT, but freaks out that they have to use a lesser 8-speed cassette instead of the original item? What would you tell your shareholders about the economics of that decision? "Oh hai, we decided to take your money and throw it down a hole, kthxbye"

    Face it. They're a corporation. They're not going to keep making replacement parts forever. And they're not going to stop innovating, competing, and creating new stuff either. Now go Google the serenity prayer
    They sell what we will buy. If enough people think it is not what they want, they will offer alternatives. I am trying (not so much here, but in other threads, as well as off-line) to convince people to think if this is really what they want. Unless you value closely spaced gear ratios (I understand some do, but some really don't, or even dislike them), I do not see the benefit, only drawbacks.

    When SRAM first put out the xx group, they did not offer grip shifters with them. I read an article where one of their designers said that ergonomically, twisties were simply inferior, and in hi swords "the future looks like triggers" or something very close to that, and did not plan to produce them. A lot of people were disappointed, said so, and guess what? They are now planning to offer them. People expressing their opinions can make a difference.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    For me personally, the 36 is not beneficial at all. But two-chainring setups offer a lot of benefits (chainline, Q-factor, FD-to-tire clearance, fewer opportunities for chainsuck/drop, and likely a bit lower weight). The extra-wide cassette range is probably going to be necessary for most people to run a 2-ring setup without feeling like they've lost their granny ratios, so the 11-36 ends up being an important part of the picture for the market as a whole.
    I agree. I think 2 ring setups with a wider range cassette is a good idea.

    I just wish they would have done it with 8 or 9 speed.

  21. #21
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    They sell what we will buy. If enough people think it is not what they want, they will offer alternatives. I am trying (not so much here, but in other threads, as well as off-line) to convince people to think if this is really what they want. Unless you value closely spaced gear ratios (I understand some do, but some really don't, or even dislike them), I do not see the benefit, only drawbacks.

    When SRAM first put out the xx group, they did not offer grip shifters with them. I read an article where one of their designers said that ergonomically, twisties were simply inferior, and in hi swords "the future looks like triggers" or something very close to that, and did not plan to produce them. A lot of people were disappointed, said so, and guess what? They are now planning to offer them. People expressing their opinions can make a difference.
    I've been an LBS mechanic for over 20 years. There has never been any significant grass-roots mass consumer-level resistance to new-gen stuff with another cog added, either road or mountain. 6-speed to 7-speed. 7-speed to 8-speed. 8-speed to 9-speed. Based on past history, I'm calling it like I see it.

    You're on the Internet, and it's easy to find a few loud voices who'll agree with you here, but I'm the guy who handles thousands of bikes a year. 8-speed XT is now very rare in the wild, if you didn't know that. You say "they sell what we will buy." Well I can tell you that the demand for 8-speed XT-level parts is basically a big fat zero at the LBS, whether it's XT cassettes, XT cantilever brakes, XT shift pods, or any other part of the system. Any of our customers who do have that stuff today, they have no problem accepting a functionally-equivalent and probably cheaper item like a SRAM PG830 or Shimano HG-series cassette, any chain we suggest, any brake pad, and any compatible Shimano shift pod.

    I also want a straight answer to my question. If you were responsible for Shimano Corporation's policies, how far back would you be supporting XT? Would you support 8-speed? Evidently yes, since you think their ~14-year production run of that cassette was insufficient.

    How about 7-speed XT, then? I mean heck, it was a home-run hit in its day. Hyperglide shifting was so incredible that I bought the first HG-equipped bike I ever built, an '89 Schwinn Sierra Comp with Shimano MountainLX, just for the shifting. Would you be supporting that? Woohooo, we're bringin' back the Biopace chainrings, this should sell GREAT.

    And what about 6-speed, with the Uniglide cassettes? It was a revolution in the history of the ATB to get mainstream freehub systems. Would you be supporting that today? Believe it or not, I do occasionally have people pester me for Uniglide 6-speed cassettes...

    And what about the deer-head XT stuff? Ever seen an XT SuperPlate RD? There might be people who want those. Would you be supporting that today?

    At some point it gets silly, doesn't it? Personally, I think Shimano should take a page from Microsoft's Product Support Lifecycle playbook, and publish a guide explaining "OK, this is how we determine how long we'll be producing exact replacement shifters. And here's our policy for cassettes and chains. And here's our policy for chainrings," and then people would be able to look it up and know what to expect.

  22. #22
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    2-ring setups rock, But . . .

    It's not what you think. Sure, there has recently been a lot of interest in 2-ring racing setups, but 2-rings have been popular for quite some time, but they have been the granny and middle with a bash. I'm quite certain there are more of these 2-ring setups currently used on mtbs than middle-big setups. And these 2-ring setups don't need a 36t cog (I won't even use a 34t cog). I'm not saying that the middle-big 2-ring setups don't have a place, but there's a lot more to mountain biking than "fast XC". It was great that Shimano came out with the 22-36-bash SLX crankset a couple years back. Obviously they realized the market is getting diverse. I'm hoping they keep this in mind when they consider across-the-board drivetrain changes like 10-speed.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    It's not what you think. Sure, there has recently been a lot of interest in 2-ring racing setups, but 2-rings have been popular for quite some time, but they have been the granny and middle with a bash. I'm quite certain there are more of these 2-ring setups currently used on mtbs than middle-big setups. And these 2-ring setups don't need a 36t cog (I won't even use a 34t cog). I'm not saying that the middle-big 2-ring setups don't have a place, but there's a lot more to mountain biking than "fast XC". It was great that Shimano came out with the 22-36-bash SLX crankset a couple years back. Obviously they realized the market is getting diverse. I'm hoping they keep this in mind when they consider across-the-board drivetrain changes like 10-speed.

    I'd even suggest that for 95% of racers a "2X" with anything bigger in front than a 22 to 26 granny paired with a 34-38 middle as a "big" is too much gearing. I see much more "stalling" up a climb, even our small climbs here in WI, from people trying to tough out a middle or big ring than someone spinning a small gear.

    Our fastest elite guys are SS'ers running 36 x 16-20 depending on the course. JHK was running a 26/38 much of the last couple of years.
    You can't depend on honest answers from dependant hands...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Live
    I'd even suggest that for 95% of racers a "2X" with anything bigger in front than a 22 to 26 granny paired with a 34-38 middle as a "big" is too much gearing. I see much more "stalling" up a climb, even our small climbs here in WI, from people trying to tough out a middle or big ring than someone spinning a small gear.

    Our fastest elite guys are SS'ers running 36 x 16-20 depending on the course. JHK was running a 26/38 much of the last couple of years.
    To keep up with my two main adversaries at our local XC series (a fast expert and a semi-pro), using a 36-16, I'd need to hit cadences of 120-140rpm on the fast flat/rolling sections (basically not feasible, I don't spin well). I'm guessing your guys's courses are more interesting than ours, though we have too much fireroad and not enough singletrack.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon
    S
    Anyone here homeless, starving and jobless in Haiti? Oh, your worst problem is that your obsolete cassette isn't available in an XT variant anymore? *world's smallest violin*
    You brought Haiti into the discussion. Jezz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt 891
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