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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Here's the latest iteration I'm aware of. Slightly amusing.
    Train wrecks are often entertaining tho in the end they're still train wrecks. There went 20 minutes I'll never get back.

    Perhaps the worst of it is knowing that a few months ago I defended Mr. Pig's advice in another thread. His outrageous attack on the girlfriend, American drivers and everyone with the common sense to employ a 1x drivetrain was completely over the top. Lazy? Come ride mountain bikes with me, Pig. I dare you. Meanwhile I'm slowly backing away...
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  2. #202
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    Nice, being a fan of Shimano I am looking forward to trying this... I didn't like SRAM GX 11sp or Eagle so this is a nice option in the future when the XT version hits the market.

    Until then my perfect combo is SLX brakes, XTR rotors, XTR Shifter, XT derailleur, SRAM XG-1195 Cassette with a KMC chain + RF Next SL Cranks and DT Swiss 240 hubs <--- not that anyone asked
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    Brake war! Newest bike has Guide RSCs...they are far and away superior in every way to my old bike's XTs.
    I have no experience with hige end Shimano brakes, but my Guide RCSs brakes work really great for almost a year now.
    I pretty pleased with them, but kind of want to try the new Formula Cura 4.

  4. #204
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    What is the point of the single lever shifter for the front derailleur? I was thinking it might be to allow a dropper controller to be integrated into it but I don't think that's the case.
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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMcL7 View Post
    What is the point of the single lever shifter for the front derailleur? I was thinking it might be to allow a dropper controller to be integrated into it but I don't think that's the case.
    That is just a dropper lever. There is no front defailure option with Shimano's 12 speed group.
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMcL7 View Post
    What is the point of the single lever shifter for the front derailleur? I was thinking it might be to allow a dropper controller to be integrated into it but I don't think that's the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    That is just a dropper lever. There is no front defailure option with Shimano's 12 speed group.
    =sParty
    yes there is a 2x12 option, and there is a single lever shifter, I guess the reason is why not? you don't really need two levers, but it would definitely be nice to have a dropper integrated lever for those running 2x systems

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    That is just a dropper lever. There is no front defailure option with Shimano's 12 speed group.
    =sParty
    Actually there is a single lever front shifter, and it looks like a really cool idea. Too bad I will never have a use for it, hell I may never even see one. It will be one of those rare little genius solutions to an extinct problem.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    yes there is a 2x12 option
    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Actually there is a single lever front shifter
    Damn, I knew that. Total brain fart on my part. Guess I just wanted to say the words, "front defailure."
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    That is just a dropper lever. There is no front defailure option with Shimano's 12 speed group.
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    It's a shifter not a dropper lever and there is a front derailleur option - you can see the single shifter above the dropper lever here:

    https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/a...freehub-52337/

    It does mention it's to make it easier to run a dropper but it doesn't look like the two parts really go together as I was thinking it makes to offer a way to combine them since I do find the dropper lever a bit of a pain with the front shifter as I get them mixed up when switching between 1x and 2x.

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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Actually there is a single lever front shifter, and it looks like a really cool idea. Too bad I will never have a use for it, hell I may never even see one. It will be one of those rare little genius solutions to an extinct problem.
    lol, these 1x disciples have the rhetoric down pat. Many of us won't buy a bike that isn't 2x compatible.

    I put the dropper lever on the right side above the bars.

  11. #211
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    I would consider this new XTR if there was a tightly packed 11-36 cassette. Possibly with 1-tooth differences at the top range. Like this:

    10-11-12-13-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-36

    One can dream.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    I would consider this new XTR if there was a tightly packed 11-36 cassette. Possibly with 1-tooth differences at the top range. Like this:

    10-11-12-13-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-36

    One can dream.
    Why on earth would you want that on a MTB?

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    lol, these 1x disciples have the rhetoric down pat. Many of us won't buy a bike that isn't 2x compatible.

    I put the dropper lever on the right side above the bars.
    After getting the Stache which can't take a front derailleur I did wonder if I'd understand the 1x hype but I accept I just never will now as if I had the choice I'd change the Stache to 2x. The one advantage is the dropper post lever can sit on its own which is why I was thinking it would make sense for Shimano to redesign the front lever to work with one and it seems that is intention so will see how it works in practice.
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    Why on earth would you want that on a MTB?
    I'd happily run that on a light 29er hardtail. I tried running a 30t front ring on my Pivot FS XC bike with a 10-42 rear cassette, but the gearing was too low and I was never using the easiest gears, so I went up to a 32. With the improved response and efficiency of a hardtail, I'd push the 10-36 just fine. I'd rather have it than some giant pie-plate cassette. 11-36 was a bit challenging when I ran it on my RFX for the first year, not impossible by any means, but people are just way too convinced they need crazy easy gears when it's the exact same energy expenditure. I've found that you can adapt to new gearing in a couple of a weeks and be doing 95% of what you did before, the other 5% comes in another few weeks.

    Again, I'd say that's a little on the hard side for a heavier FS bike, but perfect for a light racing hardtail.
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  15. #215
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    I agree.
    On my hardtail I have a 1x9sp drivetrain with a 32T chainring and a 11-36 cassette.
    This range is enough for pretty much everything.

    But I still love my 10-50 Eagle cassette. I run it with a 36T chainring.
    It's perfect for for high speeds on flat grounds or downhill and I can climb everything thanks to the 50T gear.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    Why on earth would you want that on a MTB?
    Because most people, myself included, would benefit from tightly packed high gears and barely benefit from tightly packed low gears. Especially on 1xX.

  17. #217
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    No m9100 Di2 news? m9150 maybe? Happy with my Eagle but Im very interested in that Hyperglide+ with shifting under power. The brakes look much improved, and even they came to their senses with a direct mount chainring. Looks like a good group set.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    No m9100 Di2 news? m9150 maybe? Happy with my Eagle but Im very interested in that Hyperglide+ with shifting under power. The brakes look much improved, and even they came to their senses with a direct mount chainring. Looks like a good group set.
    No news yet, Shimano were apparently wanting to focus on the mechanical groupset first and the Di2 after. There's nothing official but the speculation is late 2018/early 2019 for Di2.

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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    Because most people, myself included, would benefit from tightly packed high gears and barely benefit from tightly packed low gears. Especially on 1xX.
    Having tried many custom gear combinations, I do agree with that approach in general, although I do like wider ratios than you. For my last trip to the mountains I did an 11-42 with 9-cogs:

    11-12-14-17-20-24-29-35-42

    Used my old General Lee adapter for the largest 3 cogs. I've not seen a 29t or 35t cog outside of that. Never seen a 31t ever. Anyway, the low-end cassettes off Ebay usually break down to individual cogs (other than the 2 biggest), so it is possible to build what you want, or something close to it. Although individual cogs do require a steel (or titanium) freehub unless you are light.

  20. #220
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    I'm assuming that a 12-speed XTR shifter and derailleur would work with a 12-speed SRAM cassette, right?

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabrabu View Post
    I'm assuming that a 12-speed XTR shifter and derailleur would work with a 12-speed SRAM cassette, right?
    It seems that way, from what I have seen the spacing is very similar and they should be effectively interchangeable. Although the shifting of the Hyperglide+ Shimano cassettes is distinctly superior, based on every early ride impression out there.

  22. #222
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    I'm also curious to confirm if XTR will work with a SRAM Eagle cassette.
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  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    It seems that way, from what I have seen the spacing is very similar and they should be effectively interchangeable. Although the shifting of the Hyperglide+ Shimano cassettes is distinctly superior, based on every early ride impression out there.
    Yes, I think the Shimano cassette would shift better, but I could use a SRAM cassette with my existing hubs and XD driver.

    I am currently using XX1 11-speed with a twist shifter. I like Shimano trigger shifters, but I don't care for SRAM triggers, which is why I'm using the twist shifter. To get more range I recently installed a Garbaruk 11-speed cassette, 10-48. It shifts okay, but not quite as good as the XX1 cassette. I think a nice upgrade for me would be an XTR 12-speed shifter and derailleur with a 12-speed SRAM cassette. This would give me the 10-50 range, the Shimano trigger, and I keep my Industry 9 hubs.

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velorangutan View Post
    I'm also curious to confirm if XTR will work with a SRAM Eagle cassette.
    we probably won't know if and how well until people get a hold of the new stuff from shimano

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Although the shifting of the Hyperglide+ Shimano cassettes is distinctly superior, based on every early ride impression out there.
    This kind of BS is what's wrong with the industry. Yeah, some incremental upgrade might be a little better, maybe not, but it's not like the 2000s when you went to put your QR wheel back in your bike and the shifting was F-ed up every time, you'd have to regularly use the barrel adjuster. Hell, remember derailleurs had barrel adjusters?

    This kind of overblown BS to convince people their current bikes do not work should be called out. Yes, there are some places where there are significant improvements to be made or where if you spend a bunch of money, you get a significant increase in performance, but there's no way shimano is making stuff shift so much better as to make it a reason to go out and buy. Not given how much better the current stuff is from years past. Incremental improvements should be called out for what they are. They are not revolutionary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This kind of BS is what's wrong with the industry. Yeah, some incremental upgrade might be a little better, maybe not, but it's not like the 2000s when you went to put your QR wheel back in your bike and the shifting was F-ed up every time, you'd have to regularly use the barrel adjuster. Hell, remember derailleurs had barrel adjusters?

    This kind of overblown BS to convince people their current bikes do not work should be called out. Yes, there are some places where there are significant improvements to be made or where if you spend a bunch of money, you get a significant increase in performance, but there's no way shimano is making stuff shift so much better as to make it a reason to go out and buy. Not given how much better the current stuff is from years past. Incremental improvements should be called out for what they are. They are not revolutionary.
    Does that include Eagle's need to resync? I think if Shimano's 12 speed doesn't need the band aid of wide narrow 2 larger cogs and shifts well under load it is an improvement.
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  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This kind of BS is what's wrong with the industry. Yeah, some incremental upgrade might be a little better, maybe not, but it's not like the 2000s when you went to put your QR wheel back in your bike and the shifting was F-ed up every time, you'd have to regularly use the barrel adjuster. Hell, remember derailleurs had barrel adjusters?

    This kind of overblown BS to convince people their current bikes do not work should be called out. Yes, there are some places where there are significant improvements to be made or where if you spend a bunch of money, you get a significant increase in performance, but there's no way shimano is making stuff shift so much better as to make it a reason to go out and buy. Not given how much better the current stuff is from years past. Incremental improvements should be called out for what they are. They are not revolutionary.
    Dude, relax. Nobody said anything about revolutionary but you. My words were "distinctly superior", which I fully expect it to be. Distinctly, as in, "in a way that is readily distinguishable by the senses; clearly." or, maybe even "in a way that is very noticeable or apparent; decidedly." Me, I am hoping for the latter. And from the way you keep jumping in to crap on Shimano and prop up SRAM, it's starting to feel like you would prefer to put the brakes on drivetrain improvements if they come in a black and silver box. And please man, speak for yourself, my bikes and plenty others have been running tight and long with barely a breath on the barrel adjusters since well before the 2000s. Once I binned the X-Rays and got my first pair of Rapidfires, that is.

    You can call me a Shimano fanboy if you like, but on my primary bike I am currently running an X01 cassette on an Onyx hub that I specifically ordered with an XD driver. And an Eagle chain. Most everything else is XTR, with a sprinkle of Wolf Tooth. Because I like to use what I consider to be the best available parts. And while I think the XD driver is ill-conceived, it's also the only reasonable way to get the lightest and widest range cassettes on a bike right now. And it shifts pretty darn good. But it ain't without room for improvement. Now we have the potential to make several meaningful upgrades with the new XTR. Shimano has the track record to give them the benefit of the doubt, and of the many early hands on actual riding reports, every single one has noted the excellent shifting of the new Hyperglide+, up and down the cassette, even under power. I know there can be a fair amount of shillery in MTB journalism, but this kind of consensus generally stands up. I will be happy to spend my money to find out.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Does that include Eagle's need to resync? I think if Shimano's 12 speed doesn't need the band aid of wide narrow 2 larger cogs and shifts well under load it is an improvement.
    I don't see droves and droves of people having any issue with resyncing, I do see Eagle in general as the same thing, an incremental upgrade over 1x11 that didn't need all the hype and "you need to upgrade" BS. Just make 1x11 a little bigger on the low end and that would suite 98% of people I'm sure. They got people convinced they are "spinning out" all the time, and then of course they go and still buy a 28t front ring and negate the entire gearing advantage. If they made a 26 front and 10-60t cassette people would be frothing at the mouth to get it.

    Again, people aren't complaining in droves about Eagle syncing, lots and lots of people are running it and they love it. Shifting with SRAM 1x11 and 1x12 systems is great, it's insane how much better it is than 15 years ago.

    Is there anything revolutionary here? No, just some incremental upgrades to shimano's offerings. Some of it is finally realizing that 1x systems are here to stay and making some serious efforts in that area.
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  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    They got people convinced they are "spinning out" all the time, and then of course they go and still buy a 28t front ring and negate the entire gearing advantage. If they made a 26 front and 10-60t cassette people would be frothing at the mouth to get it.
    LOL. Who are these people? You might look into finding some better people.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Does that include Eagle's need to resync? I think if Shimano's 12 speed doesn't need the band aid of wide narrow 2 larger cogs and shifts well under load it is an improvement.
    +657!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I don't see droves and droves of people having any issue with resyncing, I do see Eagle in general as the same thing, an incremental upgrade over 1x11 that didn't need all the hype and "you need to upgrade" BS. Just make 1x11 a little bigger on the low end and that would suite 98% of people I'm sure. They got people convinced they are "spinning out" all the time, and then of course they go and still buy a 28t front ring and negate the entire gearing advantage. If they made a 26 front and 10-60t cassette people would be frothing at the mouth to get it.

    Again, people aren't complaining in droves about Eagle syncing, lots and lots of people are running it and they love it. Shifting with SRAM 1x11 and 1x12 systems is great, it's insane how much better it is than 15 years ago.

    Is there anything revolutionary here? No, just some incremental upgrades to shimano's offerings. Some of it is finally realizing that 1x systems are here to stay and making some serious efforts in that area.
    Just because people accept it doesn't mean I consider it acceptable. The resync is a fact, there is no way someone is riding around and it always shifts into those 2 cogs perfectly.

    Everyone accepted that crap because ohh new shiny.
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  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Cant wait to fold one of those cassettes into a taco. I've already bent 10 and 11 speed XT, and I cant see this being any stronger. Also, claiming it's 10% wider range is a bit misleading. Its only 2% wider as compared to eagle. And introducing new standards for both freehubs and presumably direct mount chainrings, uggh.

    I know SRAM stuff certainly isnt perfect. Some of it is so heavy its downright piggish. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by this new shimano stuff. But who knows, maybe they made those cassettes out of pure unobtanium than wont fold faster than superman on laundry day.

    One thing I don't understand is why they would have aluminum for the largest cogs and steel for the smallest cogs (they have titanium for the middle cogs). If steel is roughly 5x as strong as aluminum, shouldn't they have steel for the largest cogs, because they take the most torque? And then they can get away with aluminum for the smallest few cogs, because you are basically maintaining speed and not standing up on the pedals on the top end anyway.
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  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    One thing I don't understand is why they would have aluminum for the largest cogs and steel for the smallest cogs (they have titanium for the middle cogs). If steel is roughly 5x as strong as aluminum, shouldn't they have steel for the largest cogs, because they take the most torque? And then they can get away with aluminum for the smallest few cogs, because you are basically maintaining speed and not standing up on the pedals on the top end anyway.

    Large cogs have more teeth to distribute the load, small cogs wear more quickly (per mile) because only a few teeth are engaged at a time. They use aluminum on the large cogs because the weight savings are significant there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    One thing I don't understand is why they would have aluminum for the largest cogs and steel for the smallest cogs (they have titanium for the middle cogs). If steel is roughly 5x as strong as aluminum, shouldn't they have steel for the largest cogs, because they take the most torque?
    Every sprocket takes the same pedal torque. The bigger ones have more teeth to distribute it, so they can get away with weaker materials.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    One thing I don't understand is why they would have aluminum for the largest cogs and steel for the smallest cogs (they have titanium for the middle cogs). If steel is roughly 5x as strong as aluminum, shouldn't they have steel for the largest cogs, because they take the most torque? And then they can get away with aluminum for the smallest few cogs, because you are basically maintaining speed and not standing up on the pedals on the top end anyway.
    A 10 tooth will wear at a rate 5 times the 50 tooth. Plus you don't save much weight on the small end of the cassette.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMcL7 View Post
    No news yet, Shimano were apparently wanting to focus on the mechanical groupset first and the Di2 after. There's nothing official but the speculation is late 2018/early 2019 for Di2.

    John
    What do you guys think the chances are that Di2 12 speed will be as simple as re-flashing current Di2 electronics?

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlownCivic View Post
    What do you guys think the chances are that Di2 12 speed will be as simple as re-flashing current Di2 electronics?
    In my deepest darkest dreams, I hope it is zero chance, because I really want M9150 to be wireless. But I wouldn't suggest holding your breath for either.

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    In my deepest darkest dreams, I hope it is zero chance, because I really want M9150 to be wireless. But I wouldn't suggest holding your breath for either.
    Chances are that 12 speed E-Tap will be out for 4-5 tears before Shimano starts to think about doing wireless Di2.......

  39. #239
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    For those just tuning in...let me summarize:

    "Shimano rules...SRAM sucks!"

    "No, SRAM rules, Shimano sucks!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom erb View Post
    Chances are that 12 speed E-Tap will be out for 4-5 tears before Shimano starts to think about doing wireless Di2.......
    Hope they don't go wireless. Rather have one battery that lasts longer.
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  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Hope they don't go wireless. Rather have one battery that lasts longer.
    I get that, battery life doesn't seem to be a problem for Di2, and only having to worry about one battery is nice. Easy charging and one less thing to forget/go wrong. But that bigger battery needs a home and from my very tiny little bit of experience working with Di2 on a road bike, the wiring can be a hassle. I also have been running the wireless Archer system for long enough now that I would be reluctant to give up wireless at this point. It's nice not having to even think about shifter cables or wires, it's been 100% trouble free, and the battery life is good enough that it's convinced me this is a compromise I can easily live with. And this is a system that does not make battery charging particularly quick and easy. The shifter battery lasts a very long time, and the servo is not bad either. I feel like wireless is inevitable, wherever we come down on the issue. So I am hoping sooner rather than later, and I expect that the M9100 stuff will work just fine with the Archer system in the meantime.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    I get that, battery life doesn't seem to be a problem for Di2, and only having to worry about one battery is nice. Easy charging and one less thing to forget/go wrong. But that bigger battery needs a home and from my very tiny little bit of experience working with Di2 on a road bike, the wiring can be a hassle. I also have been running the wireless Archer system for long enough now that I would be reluctant to give up wireless at this point. It's nice not having to even think about shifter cables or wires, it's been 100% trouble free, and the battery life is good enough that it's convinced me this is a compromise I can easily live with. And this is a system that does not make battery charging particularly quick and easy. The shifter battery lasts a very long time, and the servo is not bad either. I feel like wireless is inevitable, wherever we come down on the issue. So I am hoping sooner rather than later, and I expect that the M9100 stuff will work just fine with the Archer system in the meantime.
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  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    I get that, battery life doesn't seem to be a problem for Di2, and only having to worry about one battery is nice. Easy charging and one less thing to forget/go wrong. But that bigger battery needs a home and from my very tiny little bit of experience working with Di2 on a road bike, the wiring can be a hassle. I also have been running the wireless Archer system for long enough now that I would be reluctant to give up wireless at this point. It's nice not having to even think about shifter cables or wires, it's been 100% trouble free, and the battery life is good enough that it's convinced me this is a compromise I can easily live with. And this is a system that does not make battery charging particularly quick and easy. The shifter battery lasts a very long time, and the servo is not bad either. I feel like wireless is inevitable, wherever we come down on the issue. So I am hoping sooner rather than later, and I expect that the M9100 stuff will work just fine with the Archer system in the meantime.
    Glad it's been trouble free for you, but we all have BT items and we all know how finicky BT can be- no thinks.
    I didn't think DI2 was that big of a deal to route wires.
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  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Glad it's been trouble free for you, but we all have BT items and we all know how finicky BT can be- no thinks.
    I didn't think DI2 was that big of a deal to route wires.
    Yes, Bluetooth can suck and I was also concerned about the wireless connections being glitchy. The connection between the Archer system and the phone app works great for setup and tuning, as well as any other device I have ever paired my phone with. But the really impressive thing is how absolutely flawless and rock solid the connection between the shifter remote and the servo has been. It pair quickly and seamlessly every time, it is a simple automatic action that requires very little of the rider. So I have become a believer through hands on experience that there should be no barrier to wireless when it can work this good for a first effort from a new vendor.

    Yes, it's not too much to ask to run cables but I certainly don't miss them, and Di2 remains unnecessarily complex for my needs. Pared down to only needing a shifter, battery and derailleur without any extra junctions it still seems like too much now that I have used a good wireless setup. If SRAM gets Eagle eTap right it will further prove this and make wired Di2 an anachronism.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Just because people accept it doesn't mean I consider it acceptable. The resync is a fact, there is no way someone is riding around and it always shifts into those 2 cogs perfectly.

    Everyone accepted that crap because ohh new shiny.
    It absolutely is real and must happen to everyone running Eagle at some point but it's honestly not a big deal and doesn't make it "crap" - I agree that if Shimano sorted out this issue that is in their favor but at this point they are so late to this show and need the time to make a <$500 12 speed group which will take them several years. Shimano dropped the ball big time on embracing wide-range 1x and that is a fact, narrow/wide 48 and 50 cogs or not.
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  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    It absolutely is real and must happen to everyone running Eagle at some point but it's honestly not a big deal and doesn't make it "crap" - I agree that if Shimano sorted out this issue that is in their favor but at this point they are so late to this show and need the time to make a <$500 12 speed group which will take them several years. Shimano dropped the ball big time on embracing wide-range 1x and that is a fact, narrow/wide 48 and 50 cogs or not.
    It's all personal preference. As I've stated before I'll take the engineering over the bandaid any time. It may not be crap but it was the quick easy solution to get it out the door first. That's Sram's mentality and you know it's not Shimano's. If that's what you want, go for it. It's not what I reward with my cash.
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  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Glad it's been trouble free for you, but we all have BT items and we all know how finicky BT can be- no thinks.
    I didn't think DI2 was that big of a deal to route wires.
    BT is a fundamentally different technology because it's a standard that has to work with a very diverse range of devices whereas Shimano would be free to implement their own entirely proprietary wireless communication for a Di2 setup with a BT/Ant setup to allow other devices to read out data.

    I think offering a wireless Di2 MTB option would make a lot of sense particularly if they made it 1x only where the complexity of the wired Di2 setup seems overkill for just a single shifter and derailleur. They could potentially make a simpler setup cheaper and they could beat Sram to market as well.

    I've looked at wiring my Stache for Di2 and it's quite a pain because it doesn't have any routing for it, I've seen someone who has done the conversion here but it's fairly messy as the cables don't fit in the internal routing channels and the battery doesn't mount anywhere conveniently either. I'd certainly be tempted if there was a wireless di2 option as not only would it be easier to install on the current bike but also much easier if I wanted to move it to another.
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  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Large cogs have more teeth to distribute the load, small cogs wear more quickly (per mile) because only a few teeth are engaged at a time. They use aluminum on the large cogs because the weight savings are significant there.

    This is helpful, because I'm doing an 11-40t cassette, and when the middle cogs wear out, I have a few smaller cassettes lying around and can simply add the 40t to them and turn them into 11-40t
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  49. #249
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    Really looking forward to this, especially if I can just swap the freehub body on my DT Swiss hubs.

    Any word on a price on XTR vs XT? Google gives me a billion reviews but no solid pricing yet.
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  50. #250
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    Pricing is slightly less than SRAM XX1
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  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    It absolutely is real and must happen to everyone running Eagle at some point but it's honestly not a big deal and doesn't make it "crap" - I agree that if Shimano sorted out this issue that is in their favor but at this point they are so late to this show and need the time to make a <$500 12 speed group which will take them several years. Shimano dropped the ball big time on embracing wide-range 1x and that is a fact, narrow/wide 48 and 50 cogs or not.
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  52. #252
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    Anyone know when the DT Swiss microspline freehub will be available for purchase? Thanks
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  53. #253
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    IMHO the 12 is dead.
    Sunrace 11-50 is really tough to beat. 11 speeds so less $$ and plenty.
    I love their 10 speeds 11-42.
    I will buy my next bike for their 11/11-50, period.
    Shimano is too late, some big head should have lost their job for being asleep.

  54. #254
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    I got to pedal this around the parking lot the other day. It felt great like you'd expect from Shimano. The brakes have a little better modulation than years past which, to me, had an on/off feeling.

    The Shimano Rep stated that this XTR was designed intentionally to not be compatible with exisiting 12spd systems.

    So you have to use XTR cassette, and crankset.2018 Shimano XTR 12-speed-38085057_10155905651096379_8321285736254930944_o.jpg
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  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    lol, these 1x disciples have the rhetoric down pat. Many of us won't buy a bike that isn't 2x compatible.

    I put the dropper lever on the right side above the bars.
    I've been enjoying my 1x bike, but my fat bike has 2x and a dropper and works just fine. I just moved the shifter inboard. It's not like I have to get to my front shifter in a hurry; I probably shift it twice per ride.

  56. #256
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    The 1 X was made for racers.
    I am not a racer.
    They cut weight $$
    They add weight $$ dropper
    well some love their toys,
    at least sailboats are over 200,000 so 10,000 is just change

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow View Post
    Anyone know when the DT Swiss microspline freehub will be available for purchase? Thanks
    I PM'd DT Swiss on FB and they said sometime this fall. No firm release date yet. Hope it coincides with availability of the new XTR.
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  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow View Post
    I PM'd DT Swiss on FB and they said sometime this fall. No firm release date yet. Hope it coincides with availability of the new XTR.
    I'm willing to bet a new XTR group that it does.
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  59. #259
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    what's the difference between m9120 and m9100 sgs rd? seems like both are long cage rd but for some reason shimano says 9120 is only 10-45 compatible? why even have the 9120 instead of just only a med and long cage rd?

    did they just put a 20 and called "enduro" version?

  60. #260
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    Might be something to do with 2x/1x versions.

  61. #261
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    You will notice the difference if you look at them. m9100 is more like Sram Eagle, vs m9120 is more like a traditional slant derailleur. Different position of the pivots.

  62. #262
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    Anyone heard of availability dates? Thanks.
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  63. #263
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    Furthermore, anyone have any clue if/when Shimano will allow other manufacturers besides DT to make a MicroSpline freehub? Shimano 12 looks awesome, but I have multiple I9 Torch wheelsets and I'm not about to re-hub them all....

    Honestly restricting the hub standard to DT seems really dumb to me, you'd think with a new standard they'd want to encourage the widest adoption possible. There are a lot of folks in the XTR target demographic on I9, King, Hope etc.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    Might be something to do with 2x/1x versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jan View Post
    You will notice the difference if you look at them. m9100 is more like Sram Eagle, vs m9120 is more like a traditional slant derailleur. Different position of the pivots.
    yes, looks like 9120 is a 2x and 45T max, I just don't understand why we can't use this as a 1x 51T, maybe all that's matter isn't just the gear range and there are some other detail

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33red View Post
    The 1 X was made for racers.
    I am not a racer.
    They cut weight $$
    They add weight $$ dropper
    well some love their toys,
    at least sailboats are over 200,000 so 10,000 is just change
    Pass the bong bro...

    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    Furthermore, anyone have any clue if/when Shimano will allow other manufacturers besides DT to make a MicroSpline freehub? Shimano 12 looks awesome, but I have multiple I9 Torch wheelsets and I'm not about to re-hub them all....
    .
    Of course they will. They let DT have it first because of their massive oem sales. Shimano can't sell this group to the oem channel if the bike companies can't buy wheels that work with it.

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This kind of BS is what's wrong with the industry. Yeah, some incremental upgrade might be a little better, maybe not, but it's not like the 2000s when you went to put your QR wheel back in your bike and the shifting was F-ed up every time, you'd have to regularly use the barrel adjuster. Hell, remember derailleurs had barrel adjusters?

    This kind of overblown BS to convince people their current bikes do not work should be called out. Yes, there are some places where there are significant improvements to be made or where if you spend a bunch of money, you get a significant increase in performance, but there's no way shimano is making stuff shift so much better as to make it a reason to go out and buy. Not given how much better the current stuff is from years past. Incremental improvements should be called out for what they are. They are not revolutionary.

    Uh...I hear you man, in principle. But last night I put on a Shimano cassette, put on the QR wheel, and had to adjust the barrel. And this is 2018. lol.

    I've read posts from certain Super Moderators that 10/11/12 speeds are more difficult to tune and maintain than 7/8/9, is that BS? Are you saying that you can take an 11 speed wheel off, change the cassette, put it on the bike again and it's 100% guaranteed to shift perfectly with no rear derailleur adjustments? It's an honest question, not trying to be sarcastic.
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  67. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    I'm 275lbs and can mash in things fairly hard NEVER damaged a sunrace cassette and have 2 on 2 different bikes. Many, many people ride sunrace with no problems. If your going to cause a sunrace cassette to fail Shimano and sram will fail as well.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

    OK now I know why he destroyed his Suntour Raidon fork in a few months. He's 275 lbs and he mashes things fairly hard. They should have a disclaimer in their XC fork warranty "Void if you weigh 275 lbs and mash things fairly hard".

    But if it's any consolation I like Sunrace cassettes too.
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  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I've read posts from certain Super Moderators that 10/11/12 speeds are more difficult to tune and maintain than 7/8/9, is that BS? Are you saying that you can take an 11 speed wheel off, change the cassette, put it on the bike again and it's 100% guaranteed to shift perfectly with no rear derailleur adjustments? It's an honest question, not trying to be sarcastic.

    I've worked on more 7/8/9 speed drivetrains than I care to admit, 1,000's of them for sure. The 10 speed I use now is no harder to adjust than any of them, easier actually because the components are more refined. I just replace my derailleur cable and realized I hadn't touched my barrel adjuster since I had first installed it about 4,000 miles ago. Setup adjustment for the new cable took about 20 seconds and I don't expect I'll be touching the barrel adjuster again until I change it again next time in a few years.


    I haven't messed with 11 speed much but the little I have it doesn't seem any more temperamental. Don't know about 12 sp.

    *you can change 10 speed cassettes without any adjustments, I'm sure you could with 11 too.
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  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Uh...I hear you man, in principle. But last night I put on a Shimano cassette, put on the QR wheel, and had to adjust the barrel. And this is 2018. lol.

    I've read posts from certain Super Moderators that 10/11/12 speeds are more difficult to tune and maintain than 7/8/9, is that BS? Are you saying that you can take an 11 speed wheel off, change the cassette, put it on the bike again and it's 100% guaranteed to shift perfectly with no rear derailleur adjustments? It's an honest question, not trying to be sarcastic.
    Actually, yes, I have two rear wheels for my XC bike, DT240 and DT190 hubs, I can switch the cassette over and use either wheel and it's all adjusted perfectly, I don't have to adjust the barrel adjuster at all.

    On my fatbike, my two rear wheels use different brand hubs and totally different drivers, so by nature they are spaced out a bit, but after making the initial adjustment, I can change the (same) rear wheel 100 times and not have to make any barrel adjustments. It's a thing of the past for the most part, like back when we were rocking 9 speed and having to adjust the damn things every time we took the wheel out.

    Derailleurs, mounts, axles and the sort are WAY stiffer these days and they simply don't "wander" in and out of tune. Not only that, but they "tuck under" the chainstay really well too and don't stick out like the old ones, which helps even more. The clutch that keeps tension on the chain keeps it from wandering in real muddy nasty conditions, so I can have perfect shifting and the bike stays in gear, even on 100 mile super-nasty mud-fest endurance races. Things really are much better. I haven't "upgraded" to 12 speed simply because there's nothing it would do for me, but 11 is a huge improvement from the 10 and 9 speed drivetrains for me.

    In the summer time I run a 1x10 setup on my fatbike with a road cassette for commuting. The 1x10 action is pretty crappy by comparison.
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  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabrabu View Post
    I'm assuming that a 12-speed XTR shifter and derailleur would work with a 12-speed SRAM cassette, right?
    As posted in another thread, I am more interested in if a SRAM Eagle Shifter and Derailleuer will work with the 51t XTR Cassette/freehub.
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  71. #271
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    My M9100 shifter and SGS derailleur are on the way. Will try with X01 Eagle cassette (that's currently matched with GX Eagle derailleur and X01 shifter). My other bikes have SRAM 11 cassette with Shimano shifter/derailleur. Sometimes SRAM chains, sometimes KMC. Perfect shifting. Probably 14 days til install. Will report back, of course.

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by YamaLink View Post
    My M9100 shifter and SGS derailleur are on the way. Will try with X01 Eagle cassette (that's currently matched with GX Eagle derailleur and X01 shifter). My other bikes have SRAM 11 cassette with Shimano shifter/derailleur. Sometimes SRAM chains, sometimes KMC. Perfect shifting. Probably 14 days til install. Will report back, of course.
    Plan to follow you down that exact route, if reports of this hybrid approach are good.

    Though I would also love to get rid of SRAM's narrow wide cogs at the top of the Eagle cassette. Likely not worth the coin to swap drivers.

    Planned for next spring, at drivetrain "refresh" time.
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  73. #273
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    Anyone have feedback on the new PD-M9120 Trail pedals or the SL-MT800-L dropper post lever?


    PART NUMBER SHIMANO M9100 XTR DESC MSRP WEIGHT
    BRAKES
    BL-M9100 XC BRAKE LEVER SET $207.98
    BL-M9120 ENDURO BRAKE LEVER SET $213.98
    BR-M9100 BRAKE CALIPER SET (2-PISTON) $309.98
    BR-M9120 BRAKE CALIPER SET (4-PISTON) $349.98
    M9100 BRAKE XC BRAKE SET (LEVERS, HOSES, CALIPERS) $599.98 204g
    M9120 BRAKE ENDURO BRAKE SET (LEVERS, HOSES, CALIPERS) $649.98 277g
    RT-MT900 Qty. 2 ROTOR 203MM/180MM $169.98 149g / 143g
    RT-MT900 Qty. 2 ROTOR 160MM/140MM $159.98 108g / 90g

    DRIVETRAIN
    SL-M9100-I SHIFT LEVER Direct Attach Left/Right $129.99 74g (L), 117g (R)
    SL-M9100 SHIFT LEVER Left/Right $129.99 79g (L), 121g (R)
    FD-M9100-D/E/M FRONT DERAILLEUR $124.99
    RD-M9100 REAR DERAILLEUR GS/SGS/M9120-SGS $259.99 237g/240g/241g
    FC-M9100-1/9120-1 CRANKSET Single Front Chainring $419.99
    FC-M9100-2/9120-2 CRANKSET Double Front Chainring $589.99
    CS-M9100-12 12-SPEED CASSETTE 10-45 AND 10-51 $379.99 367g (10-51)
    CS-M9110 11-SPEED CASSETTE 10-45 $324.99 310g
    SM-CRM95 CHAINRING (30T, 32T, 34T, 36T 38T) $129.99
    CN-M9100 CHAIN $64.99


    HUBS
    FH-M9110/B XTR FREEHUB Boost and non-boost $329.99 231g / 231g
    FH-M9110-BS XTR FREEHUB Straight Pull $339.99 235g
    FH-M9125-B XTR FREEHUB Wide Flange $329.99 228g
    HB-M9110/B XTR FRONT HUB $179.99 134g / 138g
    HB-M9110-BS XTR FRONT HUB Straight Pull $189.99 151g
    FH-MT900-B Non-XTR FREEHUB $184.99
    FH-MT900-BS Non-XTR FREEHUB Straight Pull $199.99
    HB-MT900-B Non-XTR FRONT HUB $67.99
    HB-MT900-BS Non-XTR FRONT HUB Straight Pull $79.99

    PEDALS
    PD-M9100 XC SPD PEDALS $179.99
    PD-M9120 ENDURO SPD PEDALS $179.99

    OTHER
    SL-MT800-L SEATPOST LEVER $59.99
    SM-CD800 CHAIN DEVICE $49.99

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by motard5 View Post
    Anyone have feedback on the new PD-M9120 Trail pedals or the SL-MT800-L dropper post lever?
    No I don't but I really like the SM-CD800 CHAIN DEVICE. At $49.99, it's a good value
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  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    No I don't but I really like the SM-CD800 CHAIN DEVICE. At $49.99, it's a good value
    So do you bash One Up or any of the multitude of companies that charge the same rate for the same item- or just Shimano.
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  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    No I don't but I really like the SM-CD800 CHAIN DEVICE. At $49.99, it's a good value
    XTR isnt a good value, it hasnt been in the past and it wont be in the future. Its not supposed to be. Its XTR.

    Im going all in on 12s SLX. Hubs and all. If shimano can make ~40pt hubs that dont break, I found a hub for life. Their bearings beat everything else on the market.
    WTB: Small aluminum hardtail 26 or 27.5 frame. Pm me!

  77. #277
    Jed Peters
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    Quote Originally Posted by motard5 View Post
    Anyone have feedback on the new PD-M9120 Trail pedals or the SL-MT800-L dropper post lever?
    The trail pedals are good. I have been running them for a couple weeks now and they are solid.

  78. #278
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    XTR isnt a good value, it hasnt been in the past and it wont be in the future. Its not supposed to be. Its XTR.

    Im going all in on 12s SLX. Hubs and all. If shimano can make ~40pt hubs that dont break, I found a hub for life. Their bearings beat everything else on the market.
    Funny part is that's the going rate for the same item from a bunch of other companies
    Tallboy 3.1
    OG Ripley v2

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