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Thread: 10 Speed MTB !!

  1. #1
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    10 Speed MTB !!

    http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycl...=1137634111525

    I just spoted this on shimano website, we would be able to make 10speed mtb with a road derailleur and cassette, right ?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megaclocker
    http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycl...=1137634111525

    I just spoted this on shimano website, we would be able to make 10speed mtb with a road derailleur and cassette, right ?
    I guess the question is why would you want a drivetrain where you lose your low gears, have to worry more about correct shifter index adjustment, and one that will wear out quicker due to the narrower cogs on the cassette?
    There is no added value to my participation - in fact, just more confusion.

  3. #3
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    Thanks to Paul's bar end shifter mounts, the 10 speed MTB has been possible for a while now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megaclocker
    http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycl...=1137634111525

    I just spoted this on shimano website, we would be able to make 10speed mtb with a road derailleur and cassette, right ?
    I would rather have a "wide" spaced 6-speed.
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  5. #5
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    This begs the question: "Is more really more?" Did we ever really need 9-speed, much less ten? Boy do I sound like a retro-grouch or what? Any way, here's an absurdly long portion of a previous post of mine from earlier today. You can skip the last three paragraphs unless you're interested in how to add a 20t granny chainring to your current crankset!

    >>I have finally accomplished a long sought after goal of outfitting my bike with the "perfect drivetrain"...at least in my opinion it's perfect. Here's some background in my quest. I had previously worked in a shop for almost three years. After many company outings to demo models we were selling and countless hours building and servicing many bikes both new and old, I came to a logical conclusion: I really dislike 9-speed drivetrains on mountain bikes...or at least on my mountainbike. But I tend to be a perfectionist, so I'm sure that many of you get by just fine with 9-speed.

    Here's why: in my OPINION, 9-speed has too many inherent problems for practical use in mountain bikes, especially the current breed of 5-6" FS bikes like the one I currently ride. The problems are the following.

    (1) The cassette cog spacing is narrow enough that the attention to proper adjustment is much higher than in 8-speed. It's like that Porsche in your neighbor's garage that runs really great from time to time but he's always under the hood trying to keep it in tune. With long travel FS bikes the cable system is put through a lot of movement and stress. The smaller the tolerances for proper function the harder it is to keep the shifting operating properly.

    (2) The narrower cog spacing is such that a narrower chain is required vs. 8-speed. A narrower chain is an inherently weaker link in the system.

    (3) This third problem is one hundred percent my opinion but I do feel it holds some merit. The industry has forced the consumers to upgrade to a system that has brought few tangible positive traits and several glaring negative ones. List any possible positive trait of a 9-speed drivetrain and I feel that you could achieve the same or better with 8-speed. 9-speed is a fix for a problem that doesn't exist. Then they go and stop making high-end 8-speed stuff knowing that the consumers that buy the XT, XTR and XO level product--the consumers that are most likely to continually upgrade their bikes--will have no where to turn but 9-speed.

    On the other hand I should be fair and say that there are a few things I like about 9-speed. You can get a 34t cog on the cassette and...um...well...that's all I've got. Many honest people who have had long-term experience with both 8-speed and 9-speed drivetrains will agree with my observations and can probably add some details that I have omitted.

    OK, enough with the ranting. So there I was recently, laboring up a questionably steep climb on my first day back on the bike after several months (don't ask) and I'm wishing I had that 34t cog on my cassette (I just keep getting older and for some reason it's harder to maintain fitness than it was ten years ago). I get back from the ride, sit down at the computer and run across the answer to the final glaring omission in my perfect drivetrain: a way to achieve a granny-gear combo even better than the 22-34 9-speed standard, with my 12-32 8-speed cassette. On Mountain Bike Action's website was a small write-up on this company called Action Tec who is making a 20t chainring for the 64X104mm four bolt cranks that are now the industry standard. Google "gear inch calculator" and you will find that a 20-32 combo is just a bit lower than the 22-34 standard of 9-speed.

    Here's my drivetrain set-up. I am currently running a 12-32 8sp XTR cassette (the one with three ti-cogs) available at Cambria, XT 8sp shifters available from various sources, XT 751 9sp crankset (the first model with the Shimano splined BB), and a 20 tooth granny chainring available from Action Tec!

    The trick to running the 20 tooth chainring on the now standard 64mm 4-bolt crankset is that in my particular case I had to use a dremel and a file to remove a bit of metal from the crankarm spider to make it work.

    Let's see if I can explain this simply: The spider has four lugs where the small chainring actually attaches. The chain will barely touch the chainring bolts while wrapped around the 20t chainring in an ideal situation. The trouble was with the lugs that the small chainring attaches to being slightly larger in diameter than the chainring bolt heads. So, the chain was hitting the lugs and not making full contact with the chainring in that particular chainring valley. I simply used a dremel and a file to remove just enough material from the lugs so that the chain rested more securely in the valleys of the 20t chainring. A tip is to screw the chainring bolt fully into the lug before performing this surgery. With a steel or ti chainring bolt there is little chance of damaging the bolt and it will serve as a guide for approximately how much material to remove (do not use aluminum bolts). You only need to remove enough material around the top radius of the lug to allow the chain to fully seat on the chainring.

    Using the 20-32 combo is a huge upgrade in climbing performance vs. the 22-32. So, now I live in a perfect world. I have bullet-proof 8sp shifting, the light weight XTR ti cassette, and a 20-32 granny to more than match the standard 22-34 9sp climbing ability!<<

  6. #6
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    Preach it brother! 8 speed! Woo!
    Off season? What off season?

  7. #7
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    What would they sell us if they didn't force everyone into 10 speed, then 11, then 12, etc.? Shimano's already planned for up to 14 if I remember right...
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    What would they sell us if they didn't force everyone into 10 speed, then 11, then 12, etc.? Shimano's already planned for up to 14 if I remember right...
    I suppose you're right. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go readjust the rabbit ears on my TV and watch A-Team reruns.

  9. #9
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    This is OLD news. Those 10 speed triggers have been around for a few years now. They are not a mountain bike group. First of all the left trigger's pull ratio is for road derailleurs which is different than mtb derailleurs. This is intended for flat bar road bikes and touring bikes that use the new 10 speed road groups. Not everyone likes to use drop bars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    This is OLD news. Those 10 speed triggers have been around for a few years now. They are not a mountain bike group. First of all the left trigger's pull ratio is for road derailleurs which is different than mtb derailleurs. This is intended for flat bar road bikes and touring bikes that use the new 10 speed road groups. Not everyone likes to use drop bars.
    every shimano derailleur have the same ratio ?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megaclocker
    every shimano derailleur have the same ratio ?
    Same on the rear but much different on the front. A MTB front shifter pulls a lot more cable than a road front shifter.
    There is no added value to my participation - in fact, just more confusion.

  12. #12
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    A Lot More?

    Are you sure?

    I'm currently using a DA shifter with an LX front and it works fine for me.

    And have run Campy Record fronts with XTR shifters with no issues.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    Are you sure?

    I'm currently using a DA shifter with an LX front and it works fine for me.

    And have run Campy Record fronts with XTR shifters with no issues.
    I was playing with it last night and it looked like a lot more. If someone knows the actual ratio difference between the two that would be good to know though.
    There is no added value to my participation - in fact, just more confusion.

  14. #14
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    I am using a Ultegra STI triple lever with a LX front derailleur with no issues other than I think front indexing is stupid.
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  15. #15
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    You can get them to work "good enough" on some combinations but they still use different pull ratios. See on the Shimano page that all road shifter pods have a notice saying they should use road front derailleurs with them.

  16. #16
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    You know it's funny, when I got my first MTB it was a big thing that it was only a 7 speed 'cause the 8 spds cost more than I cared to spend. Then when I got my Trance it had 9 speed and wowsers. Fast forward after having the Trance just under a year and riding MTB for just under 2 yrs and I really hope and pray that Shimano wouldn't be so stupid as to go 10spd w/ MTBs. You think 9's great when you first start, but after really getting in some riding and reading you realise that if you had less gears the chain would be wider, the teeth would be more spaced and all in all not collect as much mud and gunk and if it did have a better chance of still working quite fine with it.

    9's enough and 8's prob still better but please don't give us 10.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx
    You know it's funny, when I got my first MTB it was a big thing that it was only a 7 speed 'cause the 8 spds cost more than I cared to spend. Then when I got my Trance it had 9 speed and wowsers. Fast forward after having the Trance just under a year and riding MTB for just under 2 yrs and I really hope and pray that Shimano wouldn't be so stupid as to go 10spd w/ MTBs. You think 9's great when you first start, but after really getting in some riding and reading you realise that if you had less gears the chain would be wider, the teeth would be more spaced and all in all not collect as much mud and gunk and if it did have a better chance of still working quite fine with it.

    9's enough and 8's prob still better but please don't give us 10.
    The amount of cogs has little to do with shifting performance. If for example dropout standards changed to 150mm to allow for a wider freehub you could have 10 speed drivetrains that work better than 8 or 9 speed. I don't think shimano will go 10 speed on the MTB groups. At least not with the current road group standard which has 3.95mm cog seperation. The jump from 8 to 9 is actually pretty small, from 4.8mm to 4.35mm.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    The amount of cogs has little to do with shifting performance. If for example dropout standards changed to 150mm to allow for a wider freehub you could have 10 speed drivetrains that work better than 8 or 9 speed. I don't think shimano will go 10 speed on the MTB groups. At least not with the current road group standard which has 3.95mm cog seperation. The jump from 8 to 9 is actually pretty small, from 4.8mm to 4.35mm.
    Yes, if you put an 8speed chain side by side with a 9 speed chain, the difference in size is not that much. I honestly don't see all the "horrors" of 9 speed, you can get pretty good performance from a 9 speed set up. I guess it does require a little bit more finesse when it comes to adjusting it. And one could argue that 8 speed chains do last longer than 9 speed, but I think that the perceived durability of 8 speed parts is also influenced by the continuous drive to make parts lighter. We all know that steel rings and cogs are more durable, in general, than alloy ones, but we keep buying alloy in the interest of weight savings. I don't think that 8 speeds were too few, but I also don't think that 9 are too many.

    I do think that 10 speeds on the current 135mm hubs would be pushing it, though. It seems to work on road bikes, but when you factor in the dirt and grit you are going to have to deal with on a MTB, well, It may be too much. And increasing the cassette width would result, when you combine it with discs, would make too weak of a wheel, in my opinion.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    You can get them to work "good enough" on some combinations but they still use different pull ratios. See on the Shimano page that all road shifter pods have a notice saying they should use road front derailleurs with them.
    That is probably because a 10 speed mountain derailleure does not exist. Shimano does not recommend mixing X-speed components, even if it does work in a real world implementation.

    All shimano like-geared components pull the same amount of cable. 8 speed road pulls the same as 8 speed mtb, 9 speed road pulls the same as 9 speed mtb, and front derailleures are pretty much universal. Sram pulls shimano pulls Sachs. Just look at all the Cyclocross guys running road STI's with mountain cranks and der's.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    That is probably because a 10 speed mountain derailleure does not exist...
    ...and 10 speed FRONT derailleurs (which is what we are discussing) do not exist at all.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    ...and 10 speed FRONT derailleurs (which is what we are discussing) do not exist at all.
    That's what I meant, if it's not how it was interpreted. Neither 10 speed mountain bike front or rear derailleures exist. Yet. That's why they recommend using the 10 speed road front der. with the 10 speed shifter pods.

    The rest was just my meandering thought process.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    That's what I meant, if it's not how it was interpreted. Neither 10 speed mountain bike front or rear derailleures exist. Yet. That's why they recommend using the 10 speed road front der. with the 10 speed shifter pods.

    The rest was just my meandering thought process.
    Uhhh...no. Front derailleurs are doubles or triples (not counting different chainring sizes). They do not care if there are 8, 9 or 10 cogs on the back.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Uhhh...no. Front derailleurs are doubles or triples (not counting different chainring sizes). They do not care if there are 8, 9 or 10 cogs on the back.
    Sure they do - to some extent.... There are different width cages for different speed groups. Try some time to get a 9 speed group front derraileure to work on a 6-speed drivetrain. The cage is too narrow, and you will only be able to use a couple of the gears without rubbing and binding.

    They won't care if there are 8,9 or 10, but they sure as heck care if there are 5 or 10 gears in the back.
    Last edited by forkboy; 01-19-2006 at 03:09 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkboy
    Sure they do - to some extent.... There are different width cages for different speed groups. Try some time to get a 9 speed group front derraileure to work on a 6-speed drivetrain. The cage is too narrow, and you will only be able to use a couple of the gears without rubbing and binding.

    They won't care if there are 8,9 or 10, but they sure as heck care if there are 5 or 10 gears in the back.
    Not really. The 8/9 speed FDs have wider cages than the old 5-6 speed FDs.

    The main reason 8-9-10 speed FDs have wider cages is because the shifters are indexed. This does not let you trim the derailleur very well to stop chain rub. Use a friction front shifter and you can use an old narrow cage derailleur and just like we did 20 years ago, you would trim the FD after nearly every rear shift.

    In any case - This discussion is about Front Derailleurs designed for 8 & 9 speed systems. NOBODY mentioned using an older FD.
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  25. #25
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    Titusquasi

    Do you live in Canada? If you do I'm voting for you in the upcoming federal election! You are preaching to the choir here. Up untill Dec 05 I was running a 20/32 5 bolt crank, XTR der, 8 speed steel XTR 12-32 cassette and XT thumbshifters circa 1989 and I'm no retro grouch, this was on my 5 Spot. I still run this on my HT but I "upgraded" the spot to SRAM X9, twister front, and trigger rear setup. I like it but it isn't shifting better han my old kit. I needed to free up the old 5 Spot drivetrian for a project. I didn't install my new crank before my recent Moab/Hurricane trip and ended up with 20/32 and 11-34. I really liked the 32-34 combo because it kept me in the big (middle) ring more. I tried the 20-34 on some of the climbs and wow, this is a real Granny gear. You can keep pedaling even if you're dead.

    Anyway SRAM X9 works, but I never went in to the 11t cog, a 16-19-21-24-27-30-34 cassette would be plenty for me.
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