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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubo View Post
    What constitutes "always better"...
    Air gets harder as its being compressed a coil doesn't = smoother more constant progression.

    Air heats up when its being compressed , a coil doesnt.

    SImple physic

    Coil is ALWAYS > Air.... and yes I have tried the Vivid air.Along with constant reliability issues, it may be good for an air shock but its definitely NOT on par with a coil shock..end of story.

    Would a Vivid air be more than enough for the OP...well probably , otherwise he wouldn't need to ask this question.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedal Shop View Post
    Fox on this bad boyee --- took it outside -- (for better light) -- in mid build.... photo sent via cell phone --- blingy photos, from a real camera coming soon.

    just a couple things to shore up with the build:

    cut the steer tube
    cut the seat post
    install rotors // adjust

    waiting on Renthal stem.

    pedals.
    Beautiful bike!

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuumbaq View Post
    Air gets harder as its being compressed a coil doesn't = smoother more constant progression.
    Yes it does. Besides I am sure the Vivid thought of this

    Quote Originally Posted by tuumbaq View Post
    Air heats up when its being compressed , a coil doesnt.


    SImple physic
    This will also effect the BoostValve (providing low heat generated is causing an issue) on coil shocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuumbaq View Post
    Coil is ALWAYS > Air.... and yes I have tried the Vivid air.Along with constant reliability issues, it may be good for an air shock but its definitely NOT on par with a coil shock..end of story.
    Also not true. Air shocks will have the same amount maintence as a coil. It will depend on the shock and what you are using it for. The only thing that a coil provides that an air doesn't is the ability to ride down the mountain when it does blow.


    I'm not saying that I know better, but if there is a reason why some people are liking the Vivid air more than some of the newer coils in the DH forum then there is probably a good reason for that...
    I have never used a Vivid air personally but I would like to try one out, but when I hear people point what they think of a product it is usually constisted of what they think they know. Not what actually is.
    Last edited by kubo; 11-23-2011 at 11:49 AM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuumbaq View Post
    Would a Vivid air be more than enough for the OP...well probably , otherwise he wouldn't need to ask this question.

    Get a load of Mr. Condescension, here. You know what they say about making assumptions.

  5. #30
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    I've had both on my V10. The vivid air did feel super plush but I just couldn't seem to get the compression as dialed and consistant as the RC4. I weigh about 210lbs so I had to pump up the Vivid air pretty close to it's max pressure. This always makes me a little nervous with shocks. The Vivid air did have one issue where it got stuck in the compressed position but they warrantied it no problem. Adjusting the spring rate via air pressure is a really nice feature. I finally tried the V10 in the 8 inch mode and it really does ride better with a 50lb lighter spring (as recommended by SC). I don't think swapping out springs is a big deal but I guess it might be if you are someone who goes back and forth between travel settings frequently.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuumbaq View Post
    Air gets harder as its being compressed a coil doesn't = smoother more constant progression.
    this is kinda a nebulous statement, with half-truths, and begs for correction.
    F= -kX...this is the simple physics equation governing springs. That number printed on your spring, is related to 'k', the "spring constant", x is distance. So by simple math, the force required to compress the spring is linear. If you graphed this out, it would be a straight line. This is not "progression" which would imply force would increase not in a constant proportion to distance.

    an AIR spring can be designed (by addition of a negative chamber and valving) to have a linear, progressive, or regressive response. In that regard, it can be more versatile and adaptable to various suspension designs.

    The shock is just ONE component of how your bike feels while riding. I think another big influence depends on the type of frame suspension design (FSR, VPP, single pivot, dw-link).

    I think the rationale for use of an air shock on VPP bike makes sense to me. The VPP curve is regressive initially. Purposefully so, such that you "sink" right to Sag height just before the curve ramps up again. This also helps to break that initial stiction of an air shock (due to more/tighter seals).

    Quote Originally Posted by tuumbaq View Post
    Air heats up when its being compressed , a coil doesnt.
    true, but SRAM came up with the thermoplastic rod (hot rod) to address this issue.
    And i argue, to the average rider, riding a typical 10-15min downhill, probably can't feel the changes that "heat" build up causes.

    and just for education, the heat doesn't mess with the air spring rate, but it heats up the damper fluid (typically oil) altering its viscosity and thusly decreasing compression or rebound dynamically.


    Quote Originally Posted by tuumbaq View Post
    Coil is ALWAYS > Air.... and yes I have tried the Vivid air.Along with constant reliability issues, it may be good for an air shock but its definitely NOT on par with a coil shock..end of story.
    like i said, performance is on par with coil (at least with the VPP design). reliability is yet to be seen (as i've seen a couple of blown RC4s). more maintenance? definitely, for the air spring. but a worthwhile tradeoff for the weight savings.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moosey View Post
    They have air shocks on helicopters though.... My dad flies search and rescue so I've seen a fair share of hopter chopters and asked about certain parts.

    Vivid air is simply amazing. Rode one on a Demo 8 and it felt like i was riding on butter. AIR is better than coil in this instance.

    That said CCDB is better than the vivid air from what I've heard.

    and what relevance does a helicopter have to our two wheeled land applications? and the other guy, show me some motorsport application air shocks. air is lame. coil all the way. for example, Formula 1 is the epitome of motorsport, technology, and weight savings. am i correct? do they run air shocks? no, coils on all four corners. do villapoto and barcia and stewart run air shocks on their motorcross bikes? no. do any of the supercross/motocross riders? no. does bj baldwin run air shocks on his trophy truck? no. do any baja class cars/trucks run air shocks? no. besides all that, a coil feels more consistent to me on an 8in bike.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainbckt View Post
    What size?
    the bike in the photo is a medium
    Pedalshop.com also on Facebook
    Marin - Transition - Santa Cruz - Cove...

  9. #34
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    air forks are coming to motocross....run for the hills!

    i'm speaking way out of my lane here, but i think you dont see air shocks in F1 may be due to specific car rules and i think the shock themselves are structural components of the wheel/pushrod/axle assembly. i also think the forces experienced on a shock in F1 or Baja/trophy truck are multiple orders of magnitude compared to the stresses of a downhill mountain bike. comparing apples to oranges here.

  10. #35
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    bickering about air vs. coil aside,

    I've never been done wrong by my RC4 on my V10. it just works, and works very well. plush and awesome through the chunky stuff, and still has a really good 'platform' that makes its playful and easy to ride. took a few tweaks here and there to get the compression to that point, but dead simple otherwise.

    I've never ridden a vivid air before, so I can't really comment. I've heard mixed results. I will say that an air shock does require a lot more preventative maintenance to keep it working like new. coil shocks will go on forever and still feel awesome. and up on the mountain, a blown coil shock will still (sketchily) get you down the mountain, but a blown air shock, you're stuck with a bottomed out bike.

    just some things to consider. I would just ask yourself whether you think you're actually going to be any faster/better/more cool at school if you have an air shock vs. not. depending on your answer, choose the right shock for you.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    maybe yours does, but i guarantee mine has seen some heavy hitting without a single issue...
    Not me. Too gucci fit my tastes. I don't ride that hard either. Just what I've seen fruin others.

  12. #37
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    don't get me wrong, i rode the v10C with the RC4 for a half season, with races thrown in for good measure. felt great, just ate everything up that i thew at it. great mid-stroke support and very tunable.

    the vivid air, after 5 dh sessions now, performs just as good. i can't tell the difference. (i've been riding for 15 years now, Cat2 racer). and the bike loses some weight.

    if you can get the vivid air for nearly the same price as the RC4, i think it's worthwhile, especially if you do some semblance of maintenance on your bikes.

  13. #38
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    Air would be nice, but you can blow them easier, a coil shock will be more hardwearing, an RC4 would be fine... its progressive ideal for the v10
    Banshee spitfire XL Frame for sale , (only used a few times)

  14. #39
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    Rode today at my local jump trail and played around with the vivid air on my podium. Made some adjustments and now the shock feels way better. Before it blew through travel way too easy and it felt like it absorbed pedal stroke power more than it should have. I weigh ~175Ibs with gear, went from 180 psi to 200 psi. Upped compression from 3 to 4 clicks from softest. Adjusted highspeed rebound to 6 clicks from slowest and set low speed rebound to 3 clicks from slowest. It made the shock much more active on my bike and didn't bottom out once not even on the flat landings. Can't wait to try it on other trails this weekend.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by csermonet View Post
    and what relevance does a helicopter have to our two wheeled land applications? and the other guy, show me some motorsport application air shocks. air is lame. coil all the way. for example, Formula 1 is the epitome of motorsport, technology, and weight savings. am i correct? do they run air shocks? no, coils on all four corners. do villapoto and barcia and stewart run air shocks on their motorcross bikes? no. do any of the supercross/motocross riders? no. does bj baldwin run air shocks on his trophy truck? no. do any baja class cars/trucks run air shocks? no. besides all that, a coil feels more consistent to me on an 8in bike.
    you said " you dont see them on moto bikes, street bikes, cars, trophy trucks, anything"

    anything would include helicopters. So i was proving your argument wrong. If the military trusts airshocks on helicopters, why not on a DH bike?

    Its also unfair to compare all motorsports to a DH bikes air shock. Motorcycles are about 250 lbs. They probably cant make reliable airshocks to support that weight. same with trophy tucks and all that. As far as a 40lbs DH bikes, people have made reliable airshocks. Cam Zink spun a 50 foot drop on a Vivid air, Aggy rides a vivid air on his entourage. Nuff said.

    Have you actually ever ridden a Vivid air?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moosey View Post
    you said " you dont see them on moto bikes, street bikes, cars, trophy trucks, anything"

    anything would include helicopters. So i was proving your argument wrong. If the military trusts airshocks on helicopters, why not on a DH bike?

    Its also unfair to compare all motorsports to a DH bikes air shock. Motorcycles are about 250 lbs. They probably cant make reliable airshocks to support that weight. same with trophy tucks and all that. As far as a 40lbs DH bikes, people have made reliable airshocks. Cam Zink spun a 50 foot drop on a Vivid air, Aggy rides a vivid air on his entourage. Nuff said.

    Have you actually ever ridden a Vivid air?

    they cant 'reliably' make airshocks for the weight of a dirtbike, but they can for a helicopter... JUST STOP

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by drastic. View Post
    they cant 'reliably' make airshocks for the weight of a dirtbike, but they can for a helicopter... JUST STOP
    I'm sorry, i didnt realize i needed to break this down for you...

    Yes, there are airshocks on my dads search and rescue helicopter. Only on the rear wheel. I only gets used on landing, and when they tow the copter out to the tarmac out of a hangar. Its very sluggish and every bit of travel gets used. It would never handle whoops and triples though.

    HELICOPTERS AND DIRBIKES ARENT USED FOR THE SAME THING! Sure an airshock works well for towing and landing a helicopter, but i would say that it wouldnt work well under constant impacts of whoops and triples and casing rythm sections. they would need to make it faster and smaller to stuff into a dirt bike.

    That might help you understand why they dont have any major dirtbike airshocks yet, but they do have on on a helicopter. thanks sir. if you dont understand anything else please let me know so i can kindly explain it to you.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillindrdude View Post
    And i argue, to the average rider, riding a typical 10-15min downhill, probably can't feel the changes that "heat" build up causes.
    I can't agree more with this! After a season on my Vivid Air it has been reliable. It works just as well or better than the coil shocks I have ridden in the past. And I have not been able to detect any changes in 'feel' due to heat.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by csermonet View Post
    moosey your an idiot, the laughing stock of the forums. just stop. suck cam zinks dick some more you ****. just because your god cam zink uses one does mean its the best you moron. its all opinion. and all i did was state my opinion, i like the feel of coil better than i do air. i have a coil shock on my all mountain bike for this reason, as well as my dhr. i cant wait to see your pissy little post after this.

    repped.

    moosey runs rear brake only and doesnt affect his riding performance. he knows what hes talking about.

  20. #45
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    moosey your an idiot, the laughing stock of the forums. just stop. suck cam zinks dick some more you ****. just because your god cam zink uses one does mean its the best you moron. its all opinion. and all i did was state my opinion, i like the feel of coil better than i do air. i have a coil shock on my all mountain bike for this reason, as well as my dhr. i cant wait to see your pissy little post after this.

  21. #46
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    Right, I prove the both of you wrong, and this is all you can come up with? Sorry I've been running a front brake for a few months now. Seriously csermonet, this isn't the first argument I have had with you. I thought you woulda leaned by now. Yo still haven't won, and keep coming across as juvenile and stupid. Coming back with dumb 4th grade arguments like "u suck go suck cam zinks dick" just prove this. Go steal some more visor bolts from your "friend" please.

    Drastic, repping him for being an idiot makes you look like an idiot too.

    I realize you stated your opinion csermonet. But you said that airshocks don't belong on anything. I just pointed out that they belong on helicopters. Don't make statements like that, and then rage when someone shows you an example of how you're wrong.

    I didn't just say "cam zink rides airshocks so everyone should!" I have ridden one and it performed better than my coil. Have you seriously ever ridden a vivid air?

    I don't mind being the laughing stock of the forums. I still come across as more educated and mature than you. Oh and I have friends. Friends who I don't steal visor bolts from.

    Good day children.




    OP. If you can only get and rc4 or a vivid, my recommendation would be vivid, seeig that I have ridden an rc4 and a vivid. It felt smoother. But, if you can I would go ccdb. I have never ridden one, but everyone raves about them and I would love to ride one soon.

  22. #47
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    look there are airshocks on a lot of things...including the chair I sit on right now (think about it)...they just function differently.....Does a shock on a helicopter require the same functionality as a mountain bike...no...how about a trophy truck motorcyle or my chair...each are different so don't bring it up

    with that being said.....Moosey- do you think Cam Zink rides a typical air shock (production model) Using pros to prove your point is dumb...I know some race bikes that production they were 10 inches of travel but for races they were specially made to only have 5-8 inches of travel so they would peddle better. Pros have tons of stuff that regular riders don't get plus mechanics servicing them

    Reality for most of us: Coil is better then air period. Less maintanance and you don't have to fiddle with it all the time to get it to run perfect.

    If you want lose some weight, use on race runs, peddle up hills then down or just have a more pedally bike. then that is the place for an air shock.

    but for overall plushness, durability you can't beat a coil over shock (granted you can get some air shocks feeling really great, actually awesome, but to maintain that awesomeness you have to spend more time adjusting, maintance on the air shock to keep it that way)
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by csermonet View Post
    an air shock doesn't belong on a downhill 8 inch travel bike, you dont see them on moto bikes, street bikes, cars, trophy trucks, anything. stick with a coil and go rc4, or upgrade to ccdb. can't beat ohlins engineering
    Yeah and rigid is the only real mtb.

    The weight of a spring is not as much of an issue on motorized machines.

    The tuneability of an air spring is really nice.

    I think eventually most stuff will be air. And Carbon, of course.

    The new Doublebarrel air looks really good, but I haven't tried it yet.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  24. #49
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    with a little luck, ill be able to tell which i find is better.

    then ill have tried a CCDB/Bos Stoy/RC4/vivid air/coil vivid on the same frame.

    right now i still need to get my CCDB serviced and get bushings sorted, vivid air is one week away.

    but have done the parking lot test on all of them bar the CCDB - the Bos Stoy would be my choice over the vivid coil or air.. it doesnt feel as "nice" as any of the others when you just bounce on it, but i never tried a rear shock that generates as much grip as that vs the others.

    Thats my opinion anyways, thats after trying the different shocks , on the same track, same tires, same weekend.

    This testing has been done on a medium mondraker summum.

    I traded my stoy for a CCDB though, and hoping its at least on par with the stoy- if not then im getting a stoy RaRe next time.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS View Post
    Reality for most of us: Coil is better then air period. Less maintanance and you don't have to fiddle with it all the time to get it to run perfect.

    If you want lose some weight, use on race runs, peddle up hills then down or just have a more pedally bike. then that is the place for an air shock.

    but for overall plushness, durability you can't beat a coil over shock (granted you can get some air shocks feeling really great, actually awesome, but to maintain that awesomeness you have to spend more time adjusting, maintance on the air shock to keep it that way)

    That's just not true. Here's my experience, in response to your speculation:

    I've had my vivid air for a year and have done no maintenance. I still get the same sag with the same psi as I did when it was new. I feel like it ran perfect out of the box. I love that I can change my spring rate to anything I want, it's nice having that adjustability for the different types of trails around. Ending stroke rebound has changed my life. I've never noticed fade or a change in spring rate after multiple full days at northstar. Felt like magic in the morning and felt like magic in the evening. I don't notice any initial stiction like there is in my boxxer worldcup (this could be due to the VPP susp). I plan on rebuilding it in january, whether it feels like it needs it or not.

    I had my DHX serviced twice in 3 years, both from the rebound blowing up. I bought the bike used and the shock was already PUSH tuned. It always felt plush. It had less adjustability, I used to get bucked on hard landings but now with ending stroke rebound that doesn't happen. I only had one spring so on some trails it was under/oversprung.

    It doesn't feel the same as the coil. It feels BETTER. I don't know if that's because of the difference in rockshox and fox damping though. Oh, and it's a pound lighter.

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