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  1. #1651
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
    Where do you get that "a bushing introduces unnecessary friction"? When operating right it's "floating" on a hydrodynamic wedge and friction is very low and barely changes with load. You put 600lbs on each pedal, one with a ball bearing and one with a bushing and then the friction will mean something. Just spinning a pedal by hand doesn't tell you much. The pedal with bushings will almost always have more friction with no load on it.

    Again, this is why you can pull an engine apart that has had literally 10,000,000,000 revolutions put on it under load and the bearings can look brand new. The only wear that occurs is during startup in the milliseconds before its spinning fast enough to float the crank journal. During normal use the bearing surfaces do not touch one another. And before anyone says it, the oil pump is there to supply oil to the bearing, not to pressurize it. The rotation of the frank provides the wedge that it floats on which is why a lawnmower can get away with no oil pressure and as can a pedal with bushings. I will say that the most likely reason for bushings in a bicycle pedal is for durability but that's just a guess.

    I typed this on my phone and I'm not about to go back and proof read so deal with
    You are right - compared side by side bushings will last longer and require less maintenance than a bearing. However, good high quality bearings should last at least 10 years with little or no maintenance. The advantages that bearings give in low resistance and better performance, I imagine would save one several seconds in uphill climbs for instance. So based on that alone, I would argue, its too premature to anoint the Crampons as the best pedal ever...

  2. #1652
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    This is my first foray into MTB, have been road biking for 10 years with egg beater clipless pedals which I absolutely adore for their minimalist design. I have had mine for 10 years and they are still running smooth. Every little thing counts. Every unnecessary gram on my bike is an issue if I am paying $150. If I am buying second class Truvativs or Mooves than I am ok with design flaws. Remember, I joined this conversation because some of you annointed the Crampons as the "best pedal" and advocated closing this thread. Before the likes of TwoTone punks hijacked this, that was what the conversation was centered on. The Crampons are not the best pedal by far just on the design alone. Bearings are better than bushings for performance. If the Cranfields are cheapening on the bearings, the spindle length/quality and the platform smoothness - then thats not "the best" pedal....
    The problem I see is that you have come into this thread saying they are not the best pedal even though you've never ridden them. How would you know they're not the best pedal until you've been on them?

    Also, there is no such thing as the best pedal because it is entirely subjective. My foot is different from yours which is different from TwoTone's which is different from... Heck, my left foot is pretty different than my right foot. Also, our shoes are all different. Even if they are the same model, they've worn differently because we are all different people in different regions riding in different conditions. If you found a pedal that you thought was the "best", that only applies to you. Some people like the platforms close to the cranks, I can't stand that. Some folks like small platforms, I like big platforms.

    Saying someone is wrong about a product is always going to elicit these responses. If you want to avoid these responses, you have to ask what they like about it and see if that jives with what you like/don't like about it. For example, concave pedals seem like a bad idea to me. So many people like this pedal that there has to be something I'm missing and I want to know what it is.

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  3. #1653
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    I have yet to see an item that looks bad on paper miraculously turn out marvelous in real life. Thats just common sense. To prove that further, I pointed out that items that inspire passion, and are genuinely long lasting and high performance have long lists of independent reviews from fans and videos which these pedals don't. We live in 2015 man not 1990s....

  4. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    This is my first foray into MTB, have been road biking for 10 years with egg beater clipless pedals which I absolutely adore for their minimalist design. I have had mine for 10 years and they are still running smooth. Every little thing counts. Every unnecessary gram on my bike is an issue if I am paying $150. If I am buying second class Truvativs or Mooves than I am ok with design flaws. Remember, I joined this conversation because some of you annointed the Crampons as the "best pedal" and advocated closing this thread. Before the likes of TwoTone punks hijacked this, that was what the conversation was centered on. The Crampons are not the best pedal by far just on the design alone. Bearings are better than bushings for performance. If the Cranfields are cheapening on the bearings, the spindle length/quality and the platform smoothness - then thats not "the best" pedal....
    You're the punk that came into this conversation spouting off stupid irrelevant crap and pointing to youtube videos to back up your crap.

    You haven't even ridden any of these pedals, yet somehow know better than all the experienced riders who have tried many different pedals- again that youtube has superseded actual experience.

    You came in like a troll and are being treated like one. You want an actual discussion that fine, but you'd better start your first few posts way different than you did.


    You have so little experience you haven't even experience the roll effect that thos nice thick full spindle pedals will give you, but hey you know better than everyone else.
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  5. #1655
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    I have yet to see an item that looks bad on paper miraculously turn out marvelous in real life. Thats just common sense. To prove that further, I pointed out that items that inspire passion, and are genuinely long lasting and high performance have long lists of independent reviews from fans and videos which these pedals don't. We live in 2015 man not 1990s....
    See- still trolling. You don't want a discussion, you just want to be a prick on the internet.
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  6. #1656
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    Oh I forgot to mention - just in the last days, cracks have appeared in the Crampons image haha- squeaking for instance.

  7. #1657
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    See- still trolling. You don't want a discussion, you just want to be a prick on the internet.
    why would I buy anything without reading reviews? That wouldn't be smart man.

  8. #1658
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    not new information. I've come across that in posts from early 2014.

  9. #1659
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    You are right - compared side by side bushings will last longer and require less maintenance than a bearing. However, good high quality bearings should last at least 10 years with little or no maintenance. The advantages that bearings give in low resistance and better performance, I imagine would save one several seconds in uphill climbs for instance. So based on that alone, I would argue, its too premature to anoint the Crampons as the best pedal ever...
    Define "better performance". Where are you getting that ball bearings give less resistance than bushings? Where do you get the bearings would save several seconds on an uphill when it could be 50' or a mile and what if the rider is a sit and spin type of a single speed gutting it out? You're assuming these things and you really need to go back and reassess your assumptions. If a pedal is capable of altering hard climbing time by several seconds on a short uphill by friction alone, there's going to be a measurable increase in bearing temperature. In fact, the bearing area will be hot to the touch if you lost 3 seconds over a 1/2 mile climb due to friction. Instead of assuming way too many things, try riding different types of pedals and note temperature change in the bearing area. Or put the bearings under load and measure energy loss.

    As I said a bearing will usually give lower resistance in a spin test where you spin the pedal by hand with no load. But put it under load, say 600lbs that I'm sure many of us are capable of generating and friction changes greatly. Bushings usually have very little additional friction under load while ball bearings can increase a bit.

    The point being friction needs to be measured under load, not by spinning the pedal by hand. I wish my drill would support my weight. I would chuck the pedal up and stand on it with my body weight plus whatever weight I'm capable of holding but that would never work. Heat might be the only poor mans way of measuring friction under load and that won't be entirely reliable.
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  10. #1660
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    Bad Andy: Thats a fair point but I would imagine that would be more of an issue for a clipless pedal as a freely moving pedal might be slightly tougher to clip in. Even with clipless pedals, which I have been using for 10 years, low resistance would be a minor issue when initiating clipping.
    It's a design question answered by what the designer felt the given rider demographic would want. Some riders do like their pedals to spin freely. Others may want them not to spin. For example, a rider with a bag of tricks whose feet often leave the pedal and need to return to the pedal might want the pedal to stay exactly where they left it.

  11. #1661
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    Oh I forgot to mention - just in the last days, cracks have appeared in the Crampons image haha- squeaking for instance.
    Your English is too good to be DC, but I'm wondering if he went to a few classes.
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  12. #1662
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    BuickGN,
    I'm not sure we get the hydrodynamic effect kick in anywhere in bicycle bearings, we'd need 1-2 orders of magnitude higher RPM for that.. so in choosing bearing size to use, we look at it's static, and not dynamic load capacity.


    Bushings have much greater load capacity than radial ball bearings of the same diameter, though. That's why they work so well for thin pedals and other low RPM, high load pivots.


    Also note the cheapest kind of pedals that uses cup and cone ball bearings. It's actually a good design, in that it can stand to very poor implementation that is unable to provide precise axial preload, precisely shaped balls and races etc. Those bearings are smaller in diameter than industrial, deep groove radial ball bearings, for the same load capacity, so with these in a pedal you can either have thinner pedal body, or a pedal more resistant to presence of grit inside, and absence of grease. Downside being it's not practical to replace them of course. Pedal bearings, whatever type they are, live a hard life..


    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    have been road biking for 10 years with egg beater clipless pedals which I absolutely adore for their minimalist design. I have had mine for 10 years and they are still running smooth.
    And Eggbeaters use IGUS bushings inboard, where they carry most of the load. ^^
    The small ball bearings outboard are there mostly for keeping the axle aligned with respect to the bushing. Same goes for the huge variety of modern Taiwanese flat pedals.
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  13. #1663
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    Oh I forgot to mention - just in the last days, cracks have appeared in the Crampons image haha- squeaking for instance.
    That's the classics, not the ultimates. And like I said, they are fantastic pedals. I am a hack rider who bangs them off of rocks and stuff all the time and they have held up marvellously with no issues on 4 different bikes, going on a 5th. And they were super easy to maintain.

    If I had the $ to blow on pedals I would pick up a pair of crampon ultimates no question.
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  14. #1664
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Random Psycho View Post
    BuickGN,
    I'm not sure we get the hydrodynamic effect kick in anywhere in bicycle bearings, we'd need 1-2 orders of magnitude higher RPM for that.. so in choosing bearing size to use, we look at it's static, and not dynamic load capacity.


    Bushings have much greater load capacity than radial ball bearings of the same diameter, though. That's why they work so well for thin pedals and other low RPM, high load pivots.


    Also note the cheapest kind of pedals that uses cup and cone ball bearings. It's actually a good design, in that it can stand to very poor implementation that is unable to provide precise axial preload, precisely shaped balls and races etc. Those bearings are smaller in diameter than industrial, deep groove radial ball bearings, for the same load capacity, so with these in a pedal you can either have thinner pedal body, or a pedal more resistant to presence of grit inside, and absence of grease. Downside being it's not practical to replace them of course. Pedal bearings, whatever type they are, live a hard life..



    And Eggbeaters use IGUS bushings inboard, where they carry most of the load. ^^
    The small ball bearings outboard are there mostly for keeping the axle aligned with respect to the bushing. Same goes for the huge variety of modern Taiwanese flat pedals.
    I agree with you. My thoughts on getting into the hydrodynamic realm being possible is using a "thick enough" grease. I hope I'm not going off topic too much again but I partially relate it to the automotive world. I've been building turbo engines for a couple decades and one advantage I've always exploited is to use the turbo to get an extraordinary amount of low rpm power while pulling hard to redline, basically a very fat poweband. I never had a problem with getting a high rpm, high hp engine to live but when one of the requirements is 600lbs of torque out of a 3.8L V6 at 2,000rpm I began getting a lot of rod bearing wear. The cure was a thicker oil (higher HTHS, not kinematic viscosity) and the only explanation I could come up with is there just wasn't enough rpm to keep the bearing surfaces separated at that pressure. No issues when making the same or more torque at say 4,500rpm on the same bottom end. What I learned through that whole ordeal at the risk of oversimplifying is at the same cylinder/bearing pressures, low (bearing) speed needs more bearing surface and/or a thicker lubricant.

    I'm not entirely sure it's possible to float a bearing at 50-90rpm but with enough surface area and viscosity I wouldn't rule it out either. I'm assuming lots of surface area and bicycle bushings do not go together.

    Are IGUS bushings those plastic or composite, "self lubricating" bushings? Is that a brand name or a material? I've never used them but would you say they will deal with contamination better, will "dirt" embed into the bushing?

    Thanks for your input!
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  15. #1665
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    Quote Originally Posted by laxman2001 View Post
    I have the classics. Fantastic pedal, but I would note that with the exposed axle they do sometimes squeak with a lot of pedalling. I still used them on the AM rig for years though. Sticking them back on the DH sled.

    Great pedal though.
    have you done any maintenance on them? they should have a small amount of play, and sometimes dust and grime gets in there and causes the squeeking, might need to take them apart and re-grease them.

  16. #1666
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    This is my first foray into MTB, have been road biking for 10 years with egg beater clipless pedals which I absolutely adore for their minimalist design. I have had mine for 10 years and they are still running smooth. Every little thing counts. Every unnecessary gram on my bike is an issue if I am paying $150. If I am buying second class Truvativs or Mooves than I am ok with design flaws. Remember, I joined this conversation because some of you annointed the Crampons as the "best pedal" and advocated closing this thread. Before the likes of TwoTone punks hijacked this, that was what the conversation was centered on. The Crampons are not the best pedal by far just on the design alone. Bearings are better than bushings for performance. If the Cranfields are cheapening on the bearings, the spindle length/quality and the platform smoothness - then thats not "the best" pedal....
    HOLY F*CK SHUT UP AND RIDE A PAIR.

    How do you know they aren't the best? HOW do you know? you have only ridden one pair of clipless pedals for the last 10 god damn years. and you come here putting down a well renown pedal merely because it has DU bushings and no bearings in it?

    first you said they weren't durable, then you were challenged with proof, you gave up on that, then it was the shape, but convex actually helps you stay planted and still allows you to move your foot around, then you said they produce too much friction, but that is obviously not the case, what next, they don't have enough colors available?

  17. #1667
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
    Define "better performance". Where are you getting that ball bearings give less resistance than bushings? Where do you get the bearings would save several seconds on an uphill when it could be 50' or a mile and what if the rider is a sit and spin type of a single speed gutting it out? You're assuming these things and you really need to go back and reassess your assumptions. If a pedal is capable of altering hard climbing time by several seconds on a short uphill by friction alone, there's going to be a measurable increase in bearing temperature. In fact, the bearing area will be hot to the touch if you lost 3 seconds over a 1/2 mile climb due to friction. Instead of assuming way too many things, try riding different types of pedals and note temperature change in the bearing area. Or put the bearings under load and measure energy loss.

    As I said a bearing will usually give lower resistance in a spin test where you spin the pedal by hand with no load. But put it under load, say 600lbs that I'm sure many of us are capable of generating and friction changes greatly. Bushings usually have very little additional friction under load while ball bearings can increase a bit.

    The point being friction needs to be measured under load, not by spinning the pedal by hand. I wish my drill would support my weight. I would chuck the pedal up and stand on it with my body weight plus whatever weight I'm capable of holding but that would never work. Heat might be the only poor mans way of measuring friction under load and that won't be entirely reliable.
    Ok my physics is a bit rusty but here it goes. The force (F) needed to rotate the pedal would be given by

    F > Mgμd/D

    where M is the mass of the rider, D diameter of the wheel, d diameter of the pedal axle. The important parameter is μ (coefficient of friction) because given all the parameters constant, the force needed is directly proportional to μ . Good quality greased bearings easily get a μ of 0.05. Now here your car analogy breaks down because there is no constant supply of oil to keep a pedal bushing lubricated. The best μ readings on poorly oiled bushings that I could find range anywhere from 0.2-0.4 depending on how frequently oiled they are. Since you are not oiling these pedal bushings that frequently their μ is most likely in the range of 0.4ish which is 8 times that of a greased bearing. So you need more force to pedal a bushing versus a bearing.

  18. #1668
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    good high quality bearings should last at least 10 years with little or no maintenance..
    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    Modern sealed high quality bearings should last a lifetime with little or no maintenance
    those discrepancies

  19. #1669
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
    I'm not entirely sure it's possible to float a bearing at 50-90rpm but with enough surface area and viscosity I wouldn't rule it out either. I'm assuming lots of surface area and bicycle bushings do not go together.
    Well I admit that in hopes of triggering this effect in pedals I use whatever thickest grease I have for assembly of bushing based pedals. I apply very little of it to IGUS bushing pedals, and a thicker layer to DU bushing pedals.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
    Are IGUS bushings those plastic or composite, "self lubricating" bushings? Is that a brand name or a material? I've never used them but would you say they will deal with contamination better, will "dirt" embed into the bushing?
    IGUS is a brand name, yes. They make plastic bushings called iGlide.

    I ran 1 pair of Eggbeaters and 2 pairs of Straitline AMPs with these, and am quite sold on the design of Straitline's pedal axle/bearing assembly. Was expecting rapid wear from grit as the design is rather open to the entry of water, but that didn't happen, I got very acceptable life out of them all. And the ease of maintenance of the Straitlines is really impressive due to their simplicity, there's neither conceptual nor literal room for dwelling on anything trying to nerd it out.

    Ironically, Eggbeaters with their inboard seal can actually retain water for longer if it manages to enter, leading to axle rusting with the rust particles getting into the journal bearing proper, which I had happen but that also didn't destroy the pedal.



    So, my personal dream pedals are still like this: plastic body, thick low plastic pins, pronounced concave shape, Straitline axle/bearing design. (not sure it would work in a cast plastic body though)
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  20. #1670
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    why would I buy anything without reading reviews? That wouldn't be smart man.
    you want reviews?

    Thinnest pedal platforms on the market. Never snag your pedal again! (go to review tab)

    Pedals (wow look at that, all 3 5/5 stars, not one bad review)

    Canfield Brothers Crampon Ultimate Pedal - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bike Flat Pedals - Vital MTB (in this one the only reason they gave 4/5 was the pins need loctite and he didn't even know it was only a DU bushing, but the pins come with loctite now just so you know, and so do the replacement pins)

    Canfield Brothers Crampon Ultimate - Pinkbike (two years, no issues... huh.)


    there ya go. reviews.

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    3 reviews for the "best" pedal from Cranfields own website? is this a joke? What part of "independent reviews" don't you understand?

    "the best" is a label that is reserved for the truly best. Its a poor design. end of story

  22. #1672
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    hahaha so you're saying you're not going to get and ride some because you don't want to prove yourself wrong?

    Canfield Brothers Crampon Pedal Reviews - Mtbr.com

    a little more independence for you?

  23. #1673
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    Pinkbike Product Picks - Pinkbike

    said play is easy to take care of. and if you really did destroy the bushing, which shouldn't happen as i have about 700 rough miles on mine, then you can get a replacement from Canfield for very cheap. i think it was 16 bucks for the bushing/spindle.

    and i think they have fixed that problem as this review is a year and a half old.

  24. #1674
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    Ok my physics is a bit rusty but here it goes. The force (F) needed to rotate the pedal would be given by

    F > Mgμd/D

    where M is the mass of the rider, D diameter of the wheel, d diameter of the pedal axle. The important parameter is μ (coefficient of friction) because given all the parameters constant, the force needed is directly proportional to μ . Good quality greased bearings easily get a μ of 0.05. Now here your car analogy breaks down because there is no constant supply of oil to keep a pedal bushing lubricated. The best μ readings on poorly oiled bushings that I could find range anywhere from 0.2-0.4 depending on how frequently oiled they are. Since you are not oiling these pedal bushings that frequently their μ is most likely in the range of 0.4ish which is 8 times that of a greased bearing. So you need more force to pedal a bushing versus a bearing.
    Hey dipshit, got your eggbeater up for sale yet? After they have bushing, must be crap pedals. Better find some all bearing pedals for the road, after all on the road is where that friction will be even more noticeable.
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  25. #1675
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasF View Post
    have you done any maintenance on them? they should have a small amount of play, and sometimes dust and grime gets in there and causes the squeeking, might need to take them apart and re-grease them.
    Ya. Even fresh off a rebuild with new axles they did it. Think its from the shoe and axle touching. Again, NBD, things still work awesome.
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  26. #1676
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    Re: Platform Pedal Shootout, the best flat is...

    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    Now here your car analogy breaks down because there is no constant supply of oil to keep a pedal bushing lubricated.
    Self lubricating bushing. The bushing is ever so slightly consumed and becomes lubrication for itself. This causes slight wear, which is why you can retighten to proper compression. Then repeat. When the bushing is done, replace it for pennies.

    You sure know fvck all for someone who considers themself an engineer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iscariot View Post
    Self lubricating bushing. The bushing is ever so slightly consumed and becomes lubrication for itself. This causes slight wear, which is why you can retighten to proper compression. Then repeat. When the bushing is done, replace it for pennies.

    You sure know fvck all for someone who considers themself an engineer.
    I am not an engineer and I have never claimed the eggbeaters are the "best" pedals.

    The operative word is "constant supply". are you seriously comparing Self lubricating bushings to the oiled bushings in a car? Do you seriously think DU bushings will keep lubricating for 10 years? There is a reason they tell you to take the spindle out in a pedal and put some grease on it from time to time. Even then the best friction of coefficient readings on DU bushings are still 4 times that of a bearing and I bet those readings were taken when the bushings were new and still oiled....

  28. #1678
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    A bushing pedal is in the top 3? Is this a joke? A bushing by design is bull shit. Here is a simple video that demonstrates why a bearing is better than a bushing. They teach this stuff in school btw. How the heck are they charging $150 for a freaking bushing? Jeez you guys are either Cranfield techs or just brain washed.
    Nope, not related to the Canfield brothers and don't work for them. Just playing games with an internet retard...

    Actually, I don't even own a pair of Ultimates. I ride Spike Spanks because they were cheaper. If you ask any large group of people, not retards like yourself with no experience on them, to pick the best flat pedal if price is not an obstacle the Crampon and/or Crampon Ultimate pedals will always be in the top 5.

    Just look at this thread and how many times they are mentioned. Off the top of my head the only pedal mentioned as much are the Point One Podiums.

    That's not my opinion. I've never ridden them. Neither have you so you should probably StFU because while you think you are coming off all smart and educated there's not a single person reading this that thinks your anything but an absolute imbecile. That also is not my opinion, but fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Nope, not related to the Canfield brothers and don't work for them. Just playing games with an internet retard...

    Actually, I don't even own a pair of Ultimates. I ride Spike Spanks because they were cheaper. If you ask any large group of people, not retards like yourself with no experience on them, to pick the best flat pedal if price is not an obstacle the Crampon and/or Crampon Ultimate pedals will always be in the top 5.

    Just look at this thread and how many times they are mentioned. Off the top of my head the only pedal mentioned as much are the Point One Podiums.

    That's not my opinion. I've never ridden them. Neither have you so you should probably StFU because while you think you are coming off all smart and educated there's not a single person reading this that thinks your anything but an absolute imbecile. That also is not my opinion, but fact.
    May I recommend a nice helmet? something with adequate protection? Brain concussions might be taking a toll on your cognitive abilities. Now thats an area I am intimately familiar with. Unless you have a scientific argument, don't waste your and my time.

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    Looking at the technical data on the DU bushings, you can see that their coefficient of friction is still very high and can reach 0.25 when dry (4-5 times higher than that of a normal sealed bearing). Also, interestingly they perform poorly when they are greased compared when dry. All the more reason, I want the least bushing to bearing ratio on my pedal (certainly not the 1:1 of the Crampons)

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  31. #1681
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    May I recommend a nice helmet? something with adequate protection? Brain concussions might be taking a toll on your cognitive abilities. Now thats an area I am intimately familiar with. Unless you have a scientific argument, don't waste your and my time.
    That's the first thing you've posted that I believe. You definitely come across as having hit your head a few times pretty hard.
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    It's funny, in that I don't think it really matters much when you're actually on the bike. My Podiums, which have bearings, but also have the o-ring preload thing to prevent spin have more friction than any other bushing pedal I've owned. And you know what - it don't truly matter.

    Seriously, whatever amount of fun you plan to have on a mtn. bike - if it's dependent solely on the performance of your pedal's bearing/bushings I don't know what to say. You should just go buy some pedals (obviously not the Canfields) and go ride your bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad andy View Post
    It's funny, in that I don't think it really matters much when you're actually on the bike. My Podiums, which have bearings, but also have the o-ring preload thing to prevent spin have more friction than any other bushing pedal I've owned. And you know what - it don't truly matter.

    Seriously, whatever amount of fun you plan to have on a mtn. bike - if it's dependent solely on the performance of your pedal's bearing/bushings I don't know what to say. You should just go buy some pedals (obviously not the Canfields) and go ride your bike.
    Yup ordered the Moove Torques. Very responsive customer service and no shipping or tax. Let's see how good they are.

  34. #1684
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    Yup ordered the Moove Torques. Very responsive customer service and no shipping or tax. Let's see how good they are.
    They are a rebranded HT Nano if you are interested in more reviews. I own a pair under another brand name. Despite the use of bushings, they have held up very well for several years with no maintenance, though they are pretty heavy.

  35. #1685
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    Quote Originally Posted by laxman2001 View Post
    Ya. Even fresh off a rebuild with new axles they did it. Think its from the shoe and axle touching. Again, NBD, things still work awesome.
    laxman.... Having run the classics originally.. mine squeaked also but was found to be caused from my 5/10 Impact sole rubbing on the exposed spindle. When I used a different type of sole or moved my foot to a different spot on the pedal it went away. No big deal... still loved the crap out of them. Have since gone to the Ultimates for 5 of my Canfields....
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  36. #1686
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    May I recommend a nice helmet? something with adequate protection? Brain concussions might be taking a toll on your cognitive abilities. Now thats an area I am intimately familiar with.
    You may recommend anything you'd like. But I can say with confidence that no one reading this will take anything you recommend seriously.

    If you came her to find out what the best flat pedal is but absolutely refuse to listen anyone why are you here, Troll?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cerebroside View Post
    They are a rebranded HT Nano if you are interested in more reviews. I own a pair under another brand name. Despite the use of bushings, they have held up very well for several years with no maintenance, though they are pretty heavy.
    Thanks for the feedback. Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating but on paper I like them. The spindle spans the entire length of the pedal and can be removed and regressed. There are more bearings than bushings. The customer rep was responsive and promised to put videos on Youtube. Even besides that, the independent reviews are decent.

  38. #1688
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad andy View Post
    My Podiums, which have bearings, but also have the o-ring preload thing to prevent spin have more friction than any other bushing pedal I've owned. And you know what - it don't truly matter.
    Note however that the o-ring creates axial preload there and its friction stays constant however much (radial) force is applied to bearings.
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  39. #1689
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    Wow that really got out of hand.
    For me personally pedals are one part of my bike I like to leave alone. Install and forget. I want them to live as long as the bike and I don't want to service them. Does that mean to avoid bushings?...not really. Some bushings will last longer than I would keep the bike without ever needing service. Do I think a slight bit of internal friction is enough to warrant avoiding a certain pedal?...NO. Buy the one you like the best when you put your foot on it an jam. I personally like my flats to be "FLAT" I do not like the feel of a lump in the center. I could see how it may help you feel the position of your foot on the pedal but it isn't for me. I tested a bunch of pedals at my LBS and ended up getting Saints. Are they the "best"? Yes and no. Best under my foot but maybe not the best under yours. The term "best" is so subjective there is no right or wrong answer and only a "why"? Stick to the "why" and stop arguing over the "best". It's a no win argument.

  40. #1690
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    Platform Pedal Shootout, the best flat is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    Stick to the "why" and stop arguing over the "best". It's a no win argument.
    I don't think anyone was arguing over the "best." Personally, I have 5 different pedals in my collection that I like for different applications. Well, except for the clipless ones. They haven't seen use in several years.

    What I and others disputed is the notion that bushings are an inferior technology and that their use in a product instantly classifies it as junk.
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  41. #1691
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    Platform Pedal Shootout, the best flat is...

    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I don't think anyone was arguing over the "best." Personally, I have 5 different pedals in my collection that I like for different applications. Well, except for the clipless ones. They haven't seen use in several years.

    What I and others disputed is the notion that bushings are an inferior technology and that their use in a product instantly classifies it as junk.
    If you remove all of the slaging from the posts there is a debate there. Some good points brought up about the positives and negatives of each. Seems to me this could have been a meaningful discussion but due to it being started off with negative comment it escaladed to personal vendettas and the real important information was lost. Too bad. Could have been a good discussion. Someone shopping for flats is who suffers the loss of information buried within.

  42. #1692
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsullivan View Post
    laxman.... Having run the classics originally.. mine squeaked also but was found to be caused from my 5/10 Impact sole rubbing on the exposed spindle. When I used a different type of sole or moved my foot to a different spot on the pedal it went away. No big deal... still loved the crap out of them. Have since gone to the Ultimates for 5 of my Canfields....
    Ya I know that now. But they were run hard enough that they deserved a rebuild anyway. And will be running hard on the DH bike for quite a while to come, I'd imagine.



    Right now, I'm actually rocking a pair of the Nashbar flats I got from a buddy, and I have to say for a pedal you can get for $40 new they're not bad at all.
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  43. #1693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    Install and forget. I want them to live as long as the bike and I don't want to service them.
    Either that or make them REALLY easy to work on, so it could be done within pre-ride minutes.
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  44. #1694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    If you remove all of the slaging from the posts there is a debate there. Some good points brought up about the positives and negatives of each. Seems to me this could have been a meaningful discussion but due to it being started off with negative comment it escaladed to personal vendettas and the real important information was lost. Too bad. Could have been a good discussion. Someone shopping for flats is who suffers the loss of information buried within.
    The guy is a troll and didn't add anything of value.

    Off the bat he started with how can a pedal that shreds you calf be the best. That right there shows he a f'in troll plan and simple. Anyone that's actually ridden that comes with the territory, not just with Canfields.
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  45. #1695
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    I just read the fascinating discussion on bushings and bearings

    Here's my take:

    -The Canfield design goal is a very light, very low profile pedal. Bushings are lighter, and lower profile. The obvious choice.

    - A shaft that doesn't go to the end of the pedal is not an issue. There is a load called the overhung load on the outer bearing, and a different load on the end of the cage as well. You calculate the load and design for it. No big deal. With any high end bike component, the goal is not to produce a super strong boat anchor. It is to produce a light product that is strong enough. Based on the outstanding reviews for the Canfield pedal, they have succeeded.

    - A bushing distributes the load on the shaft over a much larger surface area than the point contact of ball bearings.

    - As someone did a good job of pointing out earlier, the friction from a loaded bushing or bearing is much different than what you see when you do the "pedal spin test".

    - The anti-bushing guy said that the friction of a bushing could cost several seconds on an uphill climb. This is an absurd overestimation. The energy cost (if any) is miniscule. A tiny fraction of a second over an hour of pedaling. Less effect than the weight of insoles in your shoes.

    - The anti-bushing guy bought a pedal with bushings

    The bottom line is that both bushings and bearings are used on rotating shafts that go thousands of rpms with tons of load. For a pedal, either one can handle the job just fine.

  46. #1696
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I just read the fascinating discussion on bushings and bearings

    Here's my take:

    -The Canfield design goal is a very light, very low profile pedal. Bushings are lighter, and lower profile. The obvious choice.

    - A shaft that doesn't go to the end of the pedal is not an issue. There is a load called the overhung load on the outer bearing, and a different load on the end of the cage as well. You calculate the load and design for it. No big deal. With any high end bike component, the goal is not to produce a super strong boat anchor. It is to produce a light product that is strong enough. Based on the outstanding reviews for the Canfield pedal, they have succeeded.

    - A bushing distributes the load on the shaft over a much larger surface area than the point contact of ball bearings.

    - As someone did a good job of pointing out earlier, the friction from a loaded bushing or bearing is much different than what you see when you do the "pedal spin test".

    - The anti-bushing guy said that the friction of a bushing could cost several seconds on an uphill climb. This is an absurd overestimation. The energy cost (if any) is miniscule. A tiny fraction of a second over an hour of pedaling. Less effect than the weight of insoles in your shoes.

    - The anti-bushing guy bought a pedal with bushings

    The bottom line is that both bushings and bearings are used on rotating shafts that go thousands of rpms with tons of load. For a pedal, either one can handle the job just fine.
    I did the calculations for you. You can easily estimate the time lost based on the fact that you need at least 5 times more force to pedal a bushing than a bearing. Or would you like me to do those calculations for you? the one good thing about maths and physics is that it doesn't rely on conjecture.

    I got a pedal, at half the cost, with more bearings than bushings. What part of bearing to busing "RATIO" don't you get? Its absurd to use cheap bushings on a $150 pedal. Bushings do not lubricate well and actually perform worse when greased than dry. Bearings have a sealed grease that lasts for years. The Crampons have a 1:1 bearing to busing ratio for $150. Thats a ripoff.

    You Crampon nuts remind me of all these Honda and Corolla schmucks who believe nothing can beat those pieces of junk. The crampons have no independent reviews at all. Just anonymous posters on this forum and their own website. Who knows your identity? You could be 17 years old teenage punks for all I know.

    Peace and I am out. I got my pedals (Truvativ Holzfellers, cancelled Moove Torque because SRAM customer service confirmed the Trauvativ spindle is easily removed and regreased) and I am ecstatic. The independent reviews and rankings on Amazon and elsewhere are stellar and the design is just solid.

  47. #1697
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    ...You can easily estimate the time lost based on the fact that you need at least 5 times more force to pedal a bushing than a bearing...
    You should post your working, I could do with a laugh.

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    are you sure you will be able to understand the simple math though? Or might I trigger some seizures? Hope you have adequate insurance.

  49. #1699
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    By the way micky I build Corollas and they are the highest quality car in it's class (notice I didn't say best ) or are they bushings? Your wording of your opinion bit you in the a$$ already. Don't start yet another rant.


    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    are you sure you will be able to understand the simple math though? Or might I trigger some seizures? Hope you have adequate insurance.
    Please post the math. If it truly adds to the bushings vs bearings debate then post up. Facts beat slags 100% of the time.

  50. #1700
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    Platform Pedal Shootout, the best flat is...

    Quote Originally Posted by mmicky5050 View Post
    I will never drive a car built by a company that helped the Japs commit genocide. You must be joking. F off.

    First, you shmucks didn't even believe that bushings offer higher resistance. After I posted the friction of coefficient readings, its still falling on dumb ears.

    will post later man...dont worry
    Silly boy...get your facts straight. I guess fire bombing 250,000 civilians to death that were living in bamboo houses is ok? Ignorant little troll.

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