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  1. #26
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    Call craig I know hes looking to tune the dhx air as well.
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  2. #27
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    I really like this post and like the input from Darren as well. I have a DHX 4 on my SX trail that I pretty much don't like and am torn by options. Can we break down differences between the two services being talked about (Push and Avalanch) and what, if any, difference that would make on the trail?

    Push = modifies existing propedal configuration but with new pistons, valving, seals

    Avalanche = replaces existing propedal system with what exactly to make it Speed Sensitive? New piston as well or existing but re-valved.

    I have a pretty good understanding of the systems but would be great to see a comparison between them so we can make an informed decision based on price and who we think has the approach that best serves our needs.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by aenema View Post

    I have a pretty good understanding of the systems but would be great to see a comparison between them so we can make an informed decision based on price and who we think has the approach that best serves our needs.
    *Bump*

    Looking at each as a possibility for my DHX 5.0.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullcrew View Post
    It has the same deep feel but now I can pop it up and around so definently not dead feeling.
    Definitely interested in hearing more feedback. I have been trying to figure out how to make my Sunday a bit more responsive to trail features. Reasonable cost as well...much better than the Vivid Air I was considering.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by aenema View Post
    I really like this post and like the input from Darren as well. I have a DHX 4 on my SX trail that I pretty much don't like and am torn by options. Can we break down differences between the two services being talked about (Push and Avalanch) and what, if any, difference that would make on the trail?

    Push = modifies existing propedal configuration but with new pistons, valving, seals

    Avalanche = replaces existing propedal system with what exactly to make it Speed Sensitive? New piston as well or existing but re-valved.

    I have a pretty good understanding of the systems but would be great to see a comparison between them so we can make an informed decision based on price and who we think has the approach that best serves our needs.
    We replace ProPedal Adjuster with a low speed compression adjuster and custom valved high speed piston system in the existing Fox piggyback housing. This conversion complements the revalved main piston to completely convert the DHX/VanRC to a true speed sensitive damper.


    Why do we change out Propedal valve in the DHX?....The design of the Propedal creates a great position sensitive shock...But? So as the air pressure in the shock goes up the propedal valve gets harder to open, this creates more compression damping. The air pressure can be increased 3 ways, first my adding more air pressure to the schrader valve, second as the shaft compresses, the displaced oil compresses the reservoir floating piston down, which drives up the air pressure in the reservoir, and lastly the chamber compensation bottom out can be dialed in to decrease the reservoir volume and thus cause the air pressure to be driven up even faster as the shaft compresses. The Propedal adjuster allows the rider to compensate for the air pressure on the valve by applying opposite spring pressure to the valve reducing the force required to overcome this internal pressure and allowing the valve to blow-off more easily.

    So this all sounds great, but in a real world where courses and terrain are not perfectly smooth and void of square edge holes, this is where the Propedal system fails to allow the valve to blow-off. When the shock hits square edge bumps deep in the stroke the valve becomes harder to blow-off and is actually getting firmer the deeper it gets in the travel (Position sensitive damper).

    This is why the Speed Sensitive Damper (SSD) is preferred, as the shaft speed needs to increase the compression adjustment valve needs to blow-off when the bumps become square edged or what we call high speed hits. This creates the need for the conversion and replacement of the propedal system to a shimmed ported valve. Since the shim stiffness is not affected by the build up of pressure in the reservoir, the shims can create damping at low and medium speed compression hits and be valved to blow-off when higher shaft speeds occur thus allowing the damper to smoothly resist the square edged hits. Because the main piston was valved for a very progressive position sensitive Propedal valve we can now revalve the main piston to contribute to the compression circuit and due to the decreased ramp up in the overall spring rate of the damper, the rebound stack can be revalved to be more linear . The main piston can now control it's 70% share of the compression damping giving us many more tuning options for rider set-ups. Rebound can be tuned to be more reactive on small bumps and provide lift where needed while preventing that pogo stick feel. Increased reservoir volume reduces pressure build up deep in the stroke, reducing heat build-up and increased oil and seal life.



    Modified Reservoir Volume

    1.0 cubic inches

    30% increase

    use with linear to progressive set-ups



    For a 1/2 inch diameter shaft, 1500 psi equals 294 lbs extra spring force
    in other words for a 300 lb/in spring at 3 inches of stroke, the spring rate would increase to 400 lb/in.


    What does all this mean? For regressive set-ups it might be good to add a bit more compressive force at the end of the stroke, but this does not come at no cost, as the shock compresses rapidly the reservoir also heats up and causes the nitrogen pressure to even further increase. Even though the propedal valve that was activated by this pressure increase has been removed, the seals, the o-rings and the oil have to deal with much higher pressures then needed. Typical initial nitrogen charge of 160 psi is enough to prevent internal cavitation and allow the shock to have proper damping. So generally for most shock set-ups it is advantageous to keep the pressure as low as needed and prevent the pressure from ramping up as the shock is compressed.

    Here is some Technical Info on the VanRC Modifications
    The VanRC is Fox's redesigned DHX that has the the Propedal valve removed and replaced it with a high speed regressive blow-off style valve with a very limited external low speed adjuster. This makes the VanRC a speed sensitive damper but with emphasis on pedal performance because of the low speed threshold of the Belleville spring valve set-up in the high speed adjuster valve and limited low speed adjuster range. Since the Propedal has been removed, The reservoir now uses a non adjustable fixed charge system and no longer has the need for the Bottom-out adjuster volume reducer feature. The internal volume is now much larger with these features remove and would be similar to the modified DHX 5.0 reservoir volume. The DHX 4.0 volume does not have the Bottom-out features as well so the volume need not be modified, but will except the extended reservoir cap when available.

    We have developed a modified version of VanRC valve that uses shimmed high speed valving and a wider range low speed adjuster for more sensitive low speed performance and more progressive high speed feel while still allowing blow-off on square edged bumps. This now allows us to revalve the main piston valving to complement redesigned adjuster system as we have done with the DHX. The reservoir is charged with fixed nitrogen pressure, but an optional extended reservoir cap will be available soon to minimize pressure ramp-up as we have done with the DHX.




    Here are some of the production parts hot off the CNC's:

    Last edited by crseekins; 02-09-2012 at 07:56 AM.

  6. #31
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    What he said.
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  7. #32
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    so i'm going to have one of these done to my dhx 5.0 (wish i had a better technical knowledge base about shocks so i could understand the differences better... ). going to each sight i see the avalanche modifications is $199. push sells their factory tuning system for $205 but i don't see a price listed for the MX tune. how much does that run? i'll have to do some more research on which one i prefer and even though pricing isn't actually my main priority, it is still something to be considered in the equation. thanks and great info, btw. this is exactly what i was looking for/wanting to have done.

    pv

  8. #33
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    so.....neither ava or push have come to production with a viable(any) dhxAIR.
    i would guess that both of you have speculated/researched revamping/machining the dhx air.

    any chance either of you would like a test subject for said project while its winter?

    already have the dhxAIR. and for what i do most the time is great. but i would love to see some evolution with its internals(if its even monetarily unfeasible)

    really i just kickin myself for not just sending in my 5th element and tossin it. cuz that from what i hear would have been a quick fix.

    been searching and searching for a good tune on the dhxAIR and come up with zilch. no dice.
    i dont dh exclusively enough on main bike to go drop half/g on ccdb/etc. my only other option is to snag an old 00's vanR(C) and have it rebuilt.



    should i just pony up for real coilshock and have it tweaked....or is there ANY chance that somebody needs help testing/etc/blah blah blah. any mods with dhxAIR. because id be all over that....hint hint.
    <(*-*<) Go Ride (>*-*)>

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  9. #34
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    Craig at avalanche is doing dhx air.


    Akapurvida, Craig's SSD mod/tune is not the same as darrens $204 tune , its more on par with his mx tune.
    Darren's base job $204 is a basic rebuild not much else so bang for the buck avalanche is a lot cheaper for a custom job with modifications and parts.
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  10. #35
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    right, thanks, that is what i was thinking but how much is the push mx tune? it wasn't listed.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak pura vida View Post
    right, thanks, that is what i was thinking but how much is the push mx tune? it wasn't listed.
    I think I paid 299 last year.

  12. #37
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    Darren's base job $204 is a basic rebuild not much else so bang for the buck avalanche is a lot cheaper for a custom job with modifications and parts.
    This is incorrect. Our Factory Rebuild is our rebuild service. For $204 you get our Factory Tuning System.

    Here's a pic of the components that are in are Tuning System:

    - PUSH Exclusive Asymmetric Valve Piston bolt. This features a one-way valve system which eliminates the cross over of damping circuits. Our kit is the only system that when you change the rebound externally it doesn't change the compression characteristic.

    -PUSH Exclusive VRX piston and valving. This unique piston system allows us near unlimited tuning characteristics and can be built using a digressive, linear, or progressive damping force curve based on the application.

    PUSH Rod bumpers. Our bumpers are not modified pieces designed for a different application. Our rod bumpers are the only bumpers custom designed and molded specifically for this application and are available in 8 different densities depending on the application. One size does not fit all in this case.

    PUSH Exclusive Glyde Rings. We are the only suspension tuner that does not reuse piston glyde rings for our rebuild and tuning services. Our glyde rings are again custom designed and machined for each application.

    We've been tuning and installing this kit for over 5 years into more than a thousand DHX shocks. We're very experienced with this application and also have a complete inventory of replacement parts in stock for any additional damage or wear.

    Obviously, our MX-Tune provides a whole different component package and will be back in stock shortly.

    Another unique point is that we are the only aftermarket suspension tuner that makes all of their machine parts "in house" from prototype to production.

    Darren
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails FOX DHX 4.0/5.0  SSD custom mod and tuning: AVALANCHE-dhx-ft.jpg  


  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    This is incorrect. Our Factory Rebuild is our rebuild service. For $204 you get our Factory Tuning System.

    Here's a pic of the components that are in are Tuning System:

    - PUSH Exclusive Asymmetric Valve Piston bolt. This features a one-way valve system which eliminates the cross over of damping circuits. Our kit is the only system that when you change the rebound externally it doesn't change the compression characteristic.

    -PUSH Exclusive VRX piston and valving. This unique piston system allows us near unlimited tuning characteristics and can be built using a digressive, linear, or progressive damping force curve based on the application.

    PUSH Rod bumpers. Our bumpers are not modified pieces designed for a different application. Our rod bumpers are the only bumpers custom designed and molded specifically for this application and are available in 8 different densities depending on the application. One size does not fit all in this case.

    PUSH Exclusive Glyde Rings. We are the only suspension tuner that does not reuse piston glyde rings for our rebuild and tuning services. Our glyde rings are again custom designed and machined for each application.

    We've been tuning and installing this kit for over 5 years into more than a thousand DHX shocks. We're very experienced with this application and also have a complete inventory of replacement parts in stock for any additional damage or wear.

    Obviously, our MX-Tune provides a whole different component package and will be back in stock shortly.

    Another unique point is that we are the only aftermarket suspension tuner that makes all of their machine parts "in house" from prototype to production.

    Darren
    Were those prototypes parts based on craigs hi/lo adjuster originally

    Or the fact the original bridges were so big they were hitting peoples frames or too big for some set ups. Just asking.


    So what your saying is your basic tune is the same as Craig's or am I right in assuming yours is less extensive till you get to the mx tune and then the difference is there's a external hi speed adjuster.

    Just asking because special bumpers is kind of like saying I have special muffler bearings, density can be done obviously but that's based on bottom out and tune and if done correctly the need for multiple bumpers is more hype than anything.
    There really is no need for 8 different bumpers that I can think of unless its just overly thought out.
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  14. #39
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    Were those prototypes parts based on craigs hi/lo adjuster originally
    No, we had been shipping the Factory Tuning System for the DHX for a couple of years before using the AVA hi/low adjuster system in our Gen-1 MX-Tune.

    Or the fact the original bridges were so big they were hitting peoples frames or too big for some set ups. Just asking.
    I'm not aware of any fitment issues with the original bridge....it was just a little bulky. The new design cut the weight down significantly.

    So what your saying is your basic tune is the same as Craig's or am I right in assuming yours is less extensive till you get to the mx tune and then the difference is there's a external hi speed adjuster.
    Obviously I'm bias, but yes our Factory Tune would be equivalent to the AVA kit. Our Factory Tuning System is also not limited to shocks that are in good working order which is one of the stipulations with the AVA kit. We have all of the components in stock and available to service the shock completely whether worn or damaged. The MX-Tune does in fact offer more.

    Just asking because special bumpers is kind of like saying I have special muffler bearings, density can be done obviously but that's based on bottom out and tune and if done correctly the need for multiple bumpers is more hype than anything.
    There really is no need for 8 different bumpers that I can think of unless its just overly thought out.
    Multiple densities are not hype. Because the bumper offers additional spring rate they must be matched to the main coil spring rate. You wouldn't run a stiff rod bumper with a soft coil spring and vice versa. If rod bumper density is hype why do companies like Showa and KYB offer multiple densities for each rod size with their motocross shocks? As a side note, our bumpers are molded by the same company that makes the Showa and KYB units.

    Listen, obviously you're a supporter of Craig and his program and that's cool. I've mentioned several times that I think Craig is a really smart guy who has legit products. I'm not here to go back and forth with you but rather clear up misinformation when it comes to my companies products or services. I only post when my company is brought into it. It's awkward for me to be involved in a post regarding a competitor and a supportive customer.

    I'm stoked that you like your setup and it makes you want to go shred trails. In the end, that's what matters.

    Darren

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifouiripilay View Post
    I think I paid 299 last year.
    thanks. called and left a message. i'll pick their brain more when the call back.

    pv

  16. #41
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    so bullcrew, i'm getting the feeling you are not a push fan? an reason specific or just an avalanche preference?

    pv

  17. #42
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    Good responses Darren. I think as a potential customer, I really just wanted to know the details of what your servcie provides and the same with Craig. You definitely provided that well. We are all (hopefully) intelligent and can take the info you are providing and use that to come up with our decision and don't need you to make direct comparisons for us. I think Bullcrew is trying to do us a service with the direct comparisons but he is coming off a little bit direct. I appreciate his efforts but but think your answers are a class act.

    One question I would like addressed. The Ava system replaces the propedal while the push system does not unless you get the MX tune. Besides the debates on how adjustable the setups are as far as external dials, do you feel comfortable providing a opinion/description from your perspective? I feel that Craig has mentioned the benefits from his through his post above and wondered if you could chime in on that specific also.

    thanks to all who have been contributing to this thread.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    No, we had been shipping the Factory Tuning System for the DHX for a couple of years before using the AVA hi/low adjuster system in our Gen-1 MX-Tune.

    I'm not aware of any fitment issues with the original bridge....it was just a little bulky. The new design cut the weight down significantly.

    Obviously I'm bias, but yes our Factory Tune would be equivalent to the AVA kit. Our Factory Tuning System is also not limited to shocks that are in good working order which is one of the stipulations with the AVA kit. We have all of the components in stock and available to service the shock completely whether worn or damaged. The MX-Tune does in fact offer more.

    Multiple densities are not hype. Because the bumper offers additional spring rate they must be matched to the main coil spring rate. You wouldn't run a stiff rod bumper with a soft coil spring and vice versa. If rod bumper density is hype why do companies like Showa and KYB offer multiple densities for each rod size with their motocross shocks? As a side note, our bumpers are molded by the same company that makes the Showa and KYB units.

    Listen, obviously you're a supporter of Craig and his program and that's cool. I've mentioned several times that I think Craig is a really smart guy who has legit products. I'm not here to go back and forth with you but rather clear up misinformation when it comes to my companies products or services. I only post when my company is brought into it. It's awkward for me to be involved in a post regarding a competitor and a supportive customer.

    I'm stoked that you like your setup and it makes you want to go shred trails. In the end, that's what matters.

    Darren
    Thanks for helping clear things up, Darren. We here at Avalanche just want to offer customers with an alternative way to modify and revalve their Fox shocks. This will help everyone make the best decision possible for choosing the product that fits them best. Just one thing that Bullcrew was trying to point out with the Factory Tune, and I think it shows up in the photo you posted, that the Propedal adjuster is not modified to become a low speed adjuster and the valve is left in. The pressure effect is reduced on the valve by making the reservoir volume less effective on the Propedal valve. We replace the Propedal with a custom tuned shimmed high speed valve to eliminate the pressure effects which makes it speed sensitive as compared to the pressure (position) sensitive Propedal valve.Lets just say it is a step between the Factory tune and your MX tune and leave it at that. Either way everyone has a choice between two very good suspension modifications.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak pura vida View Post
    so bullcrew, i'm getting the feeling you are not a push fan? an reason specific or just an avalanche preference?

    pv
    No I like push and think Darren does a good job at marketing and makes a good products but having been in and around stuff for as long as I have I want more exact answers without the marketing jargon that's all.
    But I have zero issues with Darren or pushs quality of products I think the choices and the industry needs guys like craig and Darren it benefits us as consumeres I would like a direct comparison more than tech hype.
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  20. #45
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    oh, ok. i misinterpreted the posts. biggest issue with the internet.

    fwiw, push called me back this afternoon and was quite willing to answer and clarify what i'm sure were all of my very basic questions. very nice, very helpful. imagine that, customer service... sad that seems to be so rare these days. haven't decided which way i'm going to go. need to call and talk to avalanche too. push said they should have the mx tunes ready to go and in stock in a couple few weeks. didn't have a price yet but the previous ones were right around $300 as stated above.

    pv

  21. #46
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    I bought a used alu v10.3 last summer.The old owner who worked in a bike store and raced locally,said that he had the propedal removed and tuned by a local suspension shop.So what did this shop do?,or is it BS.
    It's a dhx5.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Lu View Post
    I bought a used alu v10.3 last summer.The old owner who worked in a bike store and raced locally,said that he had the propedal removed and tuned by a local suspension shop.So what did this shop do?,or is it BS.
    It's a dhx5.
    How does it work? You are welcome to send it in and we can look at it. Not sure how you can remove the propedal without replacing it with something to prevent the oil from leaking out.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by crseekins View Post
    How does it work? You are welcome to send it in and we can look at it. Not sure how you can remove the propedal without replacing it with something to prevent the oil from leaking out.
    I was wondering the same thing.I will contact the shop and find out what they do.Thanks for the response

  24. #49
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    Bullcrew- so how's the shock been for you since you've had some ride time?


    I decided to go for the avalanche tune myself. 1 to try avalanche 2 Push has been lagging for months with the mx tune 3 the positive reputation of avalanche shocks including the chubbie and woodie. This my first time as a customer and I was surprise to find that going through the purchase process, that there was no questions about type of bike, wt of rider and riding style. Is this something they ask when they receive the shock? Anyhow, I just have to wait a couple weeks and see.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifouiripilay View Post
    Bullcrew- so how's the shock been for you since you've had some ride time?


    I decided to go for the avalanche tune myself. 1 to try avalanche 2 Push has been lagging for months with the mx tune 3 the positive reputation of avalanche shocks including the chubbie and woodie. This my first time as a customer and I was surprise to find that going through the purchase process, that there was no questions about type of bike, wt of rider and riding style. Is this something they ask when they receive the shock? Anyhow, I just have to wait a couple weeks and see.
    Craig will call you when the shock is on the bench so its all right there and done so no questions and issues, also he will go over several questions with you to get it dialed exactly where you want.

    As far as mi e LOVE IT, haven't put the avalanche chubbie back on and can't really justify it. I'll have more pics of jump line tomorrow, I got my butt handed to me on a botched jump/step down I came in off thefirst jump screwy and couldn't get a handle on the jump landed flat. Rear handled it fine the fox 40 stuffed and ended up icing my wrists tonight.


    The rear dhx kicks @$$........
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