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  1. #1
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    Downhill MTB on a 29er?

    Has any one rode a Downhill MTB Trail with a 29er? If so, how did it go?

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    Wrong section of the forums buddy .

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    There are too many factors involved to answer that question realistically. I would search specifically for the bike you're wondering about.
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    You guys suck im all bummed now

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    There have been plenty of people who have done it, although the results vary wildly. If it was a sidewalk with jumps like the Sea Otter DH, there were 650 and 29 wheels all over the place, and they did well. But go to a place like Val di Sole, Italy, and the vast majority were back on 26" wheels and more travel.

    I work with a guy who takes his 29er on pretty much anything short of full DH races. He's a phenomenal rider and pushes his bike much harder than most. One thing he did tell me recently was that he was forced to upgrade to a stiffer wheelset. His stock (but still very high end) wheelset was flexing enough in corners that it was rubbing his rear triangle. Bad news. So he bought an Enve wheelset as it was about the stiffest rim he could get. He says it's a lot better now, but he didn't enjoy having to spend that kind of money just to get it to function well in hard enduro/dh mode.
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    My personal thoughts: A 29er on a true DH course is a bit like eating your dinner with a spork. Yes, it will work. No, it's not as enjoyable. And yes, your friends will probably make fun of you.
    tangaroo: What electrolytes do chicken and turkey have again?
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    To me it's more like eating Mexican...






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    I've done it with a trek something-or-another at a demo day. It wasn't horrible I suppose, but I still preferred the 26" bike.

    The comparison is difficult however as there really aren't any real "DH" 29er's out there spec'd out like their 26" counterparts... or not many at least. The 4-5" travel 25lbs 29er I rode down was a completely different beast than my 40lbs 8" boot'r and both are meant to do different things. On the jump lines, it was a blast and I was really able to send it without any effort at all.. but when it got steep and tight in the berms, it felt a little more sluggish to me to try to change directly quickly like I was used to with the big bike.

    All in all... I'd save the 29er for the hills and the 26 big bike for the parks.

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    In 2011 at the Nevada State Champs at Bootleg Canyon the SS DH race was won on a 29'er. It was the owner of All Mountain Cyclery that won. Only 2 others in the Open Single Speed race, but they were pretty fast, being Chris Canfield and Gene Hamilton. I still ride a regular size wheel bike (26") but thought I should share this story.
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    had a bandit 29er set up for burlier riding, what i didn't like was how it felt in the air.
    real sluggish and the wheels also took a beating.

    my next bike to try will probably be a 650b, though i will always have a dedicated dh bike 26er like a tr250 for the jump runs that are being built more often.
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    I'm on a 29er HT right now, planning on just getting a 26er with long travel for downhill stuff. The 29er is just too bulky for tight turns and jumping at speed. I love it for climbing and mobbin' through really techy stuff though.

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    I do every weekend.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_Was_Here View Post
    Has any one rode a Downhill MTB Trail with a 29er? If so, how did it go?
    The biggest problem is that aside from Lenz no one has really made a serious stab at 29er DH bike.

    DH racers can be a bunch of fashion victims, they cried about skinsuits until they got banned on 'safety grounds' but they still turn up to race without spine guards without a hint of irony. Now they're crying about 29ers making them feel insecure.

    Sooner or later one of the big DH teams will suck up the abuse, turn up with a 29er bike and smash everybody (because DH is all about rolling faster). A 29er across Fort Bill's rocks would be epic. Then it'll take off, because the UCI won't ban it for fear of annoying said big DH team.

    Until then, 29er DH bike, Lenz or custom frame.

    Taking a 29er trail bike to downhill trails would be like taking a 26er trail bike, you can still go fast, but dodge the jumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_Was_Here View Post
    Has any one rode a Downhill MTB Trail with a 29er? If so, how did it go?
    No, 29ers do not go down hills, only up.
    You must push or be shuttled back down.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    Awesome.
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    I've raced a long travel 29" down the Keystone DH lines in the BME series. Adjustable geo, and 5.5 fork put it around 66.75 degrees HA. Yes it rolled over pretty much everything, and NO it would not turn to save its life at pace. It was a fun experiment, I won't do it again.

    Just because you can....

    And the obligatory YMMV.

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    It depends on the rider and the trail (more on the rider). I took my RIP 9 and ran lift serve at Burke and had a blast (and scared the crap out of a few guys in full downhill kit!).

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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    I count at least 8 teams which will be running 29"-wheeled DH bikes when the UCI WC DH season starts in a couple of weeks:

    • Commencal
    • Trek
    • Mondraker
    • Giant
    • Intense
    • Cube
    • Santa Cruz
    • Specialized



    Welcome to a brave new world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbl Kint View Post
    I count at least 8 teams which will be running 29"-wheeled DH bikes when the UCI WC DH season starts in a couple of weeks:

    • Commencal
    • Trek
    • Mondraker
    • Giant
    • Intense
    • Cube
    • Santa Cruz
    • Specialized



    Welcome to a brave new world.
    HAHA! Giant said that 27.5 was the future and that it was the best size for mountain biking. They were eventually going to phase out their 29r's. I guess it never happened.

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    make that 8 teams with the ability to test and possibly race 29" wheel DH bikes. I do think though that some people will stick to it as their new go-to, impossible to say if the whole field will make the switch over the next few years.

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    I want to see Hart on a 29er DH bike. Guy looks like he's on his dad's bike when he's on 650b.

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    Santa Cruz is the first to make a press release. From what I've seen online and on sicial media, I expect Mondraker, Commencal, Specialized, intense, Trek, Cube, Giant, even NS Bikes to also go #DH29.

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    Not being a DH rider, is a lower center of gravity desirable on every DH trail? Twisty or straigth?

  24. #24
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    I'm on a 6" travel 29er this year, specifically purchased to go ride anywhere and everything. I plan to put 30+ days on it at Trestle bike park, plus a couple days at Keystone, Granby and a trip to Whistler. Resorts aren't open yet, but a couple of trips for some trail ridding, plus ridding my local trails indicate that it'll shred everything in front of it.

    I don't see any downside to the 29" wheels, except that i don't think i'll get much when i sell my 26" DH bike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    HAHA! Giant said that 27.5 was the future and that it was the best size for mountain biking. They were eventually going to phase out their 29r's. I guess it never happened.
    Well it did, then they found themselves sat on something like 40% unsold stock at the end of last year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    Sooner or later one of the big DH teams will suck up the abuse, turn up with a 29er bike and smash everybody (because DH is all about rolling faster). A 29er across Fort Bill's rocks would be epic. Then it'll take off, because the UCI won't ban it for fear of annoying said big DH team.
    It's almost like this industry is completely predictable

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    Personally don't know why 27.5+ isn't getting a better run as most of the timed tests I've seen have shown that the added grip and greater roll gives faster times..

    Schwalbe & Maxxis are now producing DH specific 27.5+ tyres in 2.6 upwards...

    Anyway...time will tell...

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    from what I've heard about + tires is that they don't make sense in a racing application. there was a video that Warner did last year where he took people out on different tire sizes on the same trail and timed them and asked how they felt.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/27.5-v...nds-Video.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim_from_PA View Post
    from what I've heard about + tires is that they don't make sense in a racing application. there was a video that Warner did last year where he took people out on different tire sizes on the same trail and timed them and asked how they felt.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/27.5-v...nds-Video.html
    Yeah, that's the Soho bike video, it's really good actually and all done up at BPW so a good testing ground.

    Everyone had really different times and different opinions. I'm not sure it was all that conclusive as not everyone rode every tyre, not many did the 27.5+, nor did as many runs on the different tyres, but it was good nevertheless...

    It was also filmed before Maxxis and Schwalbe jsut bought out their specific DH plus tyres..

    I'd be really keen to see how Peat does down BPW on the Minnion DHF and DHRII 2.6 or 2.8...he didn't even try the plus in that video..

    They did reckon the plus tyres are more prone to punctures because of low pressures...so if that is proven then that would rule them out of comps for sure.


  30. #30
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    I had an older Niner WFO that I put a ccdb coil on and ran it with a dorado... did plenty of park days on it as well as using it as my main AM bike for a few years. While it could clear everything fine and was a rocket over rock gardens, there was less margin for error if you didn't takeoff or land just right as the big wheels took much more effort to throw around.

    Destroyed the chainstay on it once and Niner was great with their warranty. Eventually destroyed the 36h flows I used to build up the wheels, and built up a 26/27.5 banshee darkside (which after destroying the rear wheel in 27.5, I put a 26" in with the shorter chainstay dropouts and it felt WAY better over jumps). For racing they might be slightly faster but faster doesn't necessarily mean more fun if you feel awkward over every jump and are constantly buzzing your behind anytime you ride down something super steep and need to get behind the rear wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by euroford View Post
    I'm on a 6" travel 29er this year, specifically purchased to go ride anywhere and everything. I plan to put 30+ days on it at Trestle bike park, plus a couple days at Keystone, Granby and a trip to Whistler. Resorts aren't open yet, but a couple of trips for some trail ridding, plus ridding my local trails indicate that it'll shred everything in front of it.

    I don't see any downside to the 29" wheels, except that i don't think i'll get much when i sell my 26" DH bike.
    If you decide to keep it long enough for the bike parks to open this season I'd suggest doing back to back laps on a jump trail with the 26" dh bike and 29er before selling the 26".

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    yeah i'm holding onto the sled for the time being, and will bring up both bikes for some back to back ridding. the 29er jumps pretty good though, slayed the DJ's at valmont, i think she's game for some rainmaker duty as well!
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    Minnaar usually starts the season slow. Based on most recent form Gwin and Hart seem to be fastest. We now have the likes of Vergier and Shaw beating them on qualis in Lourdes. 29er's in DH have truly arrived.



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    I see butt-hurt!


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    Tomorrow will be do or die but 3 29ers qualifying 1st. 3rd. and 6th. and the guys in 1st. and 3rd. didn't ever qualify in the top 10 last season makes a BIG statement. Gonna be a great season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattkock View Post
    Tomorrow will be do or die but 3 29ers qualifying 1st. 3rd. and 6th. and the guys in 1st. and 3rd. didn't ever qualify in the top 10 last season makes a BIG statement. Gonna be a great season.
    Yep it will be a great day but your "didn't ever qualify in the top 10" statement is not correct with Loris & Luca finishing 7th & 9th overall in the UCI 2016 DH standings. They are quick regardless of wheel size!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitejumping View Post
    .. For racing they might be slightly faster but faster doesn't necessarily mean more fun if you feel awkward over every jump and are constantly buzzing your behind anytime you ride down something super steep and need to get behind the rear wheel.
    Sore assbox is a real bummer
    ...

  37. #37
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    technology pushes...I would have been happy to stay on my 26 inch but I cracked my V-10....the 27.5 rides better through the chop but it has more chain feed back (26 V10 is way better in the feed back then the 27.5 V10)

    With my heavy body...just don't seeing getting a 29 dh bike...I like 27.5....and I just can't afford it
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    Yeah, show me a 27.5" or 29" bike with 180 to 200mm travel and 16.5" chainstays and I might consider one, but until then I'll stick to my carbon session park 26". I'd rather have more fun in the air than be slightly faster over a rock garden.

  39. #39
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    I have known for a couple years that 29ers were fast when I when I decided to ride my low travel 29er (120mm) on my local downhill tracks just for the heck of it. I wanted to see how much that bike could take. To my surprise, I beat all my times with the low travel 29er than on my enduro 27.5 (160mm). The trails are very rocky and technical. I was really surprised it was faster. One trail in particular is where Specialized tests their bikes. Still to this day, I still haven't beat my times on my low travel 29er. Haha.

    The bigger wheels just are faster on really rocky, rooty technical downhills. Rollover resistance is just that much less. 27.5 are more fun to ride though. However, in racing speed is everything so stay tuned for 29ers to be infiltrating the pro DH and Enduro circuits. The 29er will have its day soon.

    The biggest challenges for 29ers is designing bikes to fit the longer travel, but less travel is needed. Also, making a strong enough wheel because the bigger the wheel the tougher to make it stiff and strong. However, bike companies have excellent engineering and are going to figure out all the solutions to make excellent bikes though. It is going to be very interesting to see what happens.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliikane View Post
    I have known for a couple years that 29ers were fast when I when I decided to ride my low travel 29er (120mm) on my local downhill tracks just for the heck of it. I wanted to see how much that bike could take. To my surprise, I beat all my times with the low travel 29er than on my enduro 27.5 (160mm). The trails are very rocky and technical. I was really surprised it was faster. One trail in particular is where Specialized tests their bikes. Still to this day, I still haven't beat my times on my low travel 29er. Haha.

    The bigger wheels just are faster on really rocky, rooty technical downhills. Rollover resistance is just that much less. 27.5 are more fun to ride though. However, in racing speed is everything so stay tuned for 29ers to be infiltrating the pro DH and Enduro circuits. The 29er will have its day soon.

    The biggest challenges for 29ers is designing bikes to fit the longer travel, but less travel is needed. Also, making a strong enough wheel because the bigger the wheel the tougher to make it stiff and strong. However, bike companies have excellent engineering and are going to figure out all the solutions to make excellent bikes though. It is going to be very interesting to see what happens.
    I think everything you say is true.....regarding the rims...I think that is the biggest issue ....if they make a rim that makes the spoke"s length smaller then that could be the solution or make the flanges longer on the hubs....it is a crazy ....I am not switching from my 27.5 or a long time.....if my 26 didn't crack I would still be riding that and happy
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS View Post
    I think everything you say is true.....regarding the rims...I think that is the biggest issue ....if they make a rim that makes the spoke"s length smaller then that could be the solution or make the flanges longer on the hubs....it is a crazy ....I am not switching from my 27.5 or a long time.....if my 26 didn't crack I would still be riding that and happy
    Have you built any carbon wheels? The rims are stooopid stiff making spoke length a bit irrelevant. That's my next upgrade for the Jedi...some Light-Bicycle 38s w/ DH layup. I have a pair of those rims built for my Nomad 3 and another pair for my Hightower. Spoke lengths on the Nomad 3 (12x142) w/ those rims is ~260mm, the same length as a 26" Jedi (12x150) w/ Mavic 729s. And, the spoke length on my Hightower (12x148) w/ those LBs is ~278mm. While +18mm on the radius is not insignificant, when the whole thing is laced up and tensioned to 110kgf, it's not even going to show up...at least in the cockpit. Tire pressure will be more of a factor.

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    I've raced DH many times on my E29, as well as plenty of park days, etc. You can hit some pretty big jumps, but there are some issues. It jumps flatter usually, it seems the gyroscopic motion of the wheels does a little something when you are jumping, possibly resisting directional changes a little more, you have to pedal harder to get up to speed, if your mountain is crazy steep and the track is made for it, no problem, but it's sometimes a stretch to get enough speed on the 29er to clear doubles/gaps and I notice later in the day you definitely have to work harder to get back to speed in between features. There are a few I can make on my 27.5 that I never made on the 29er, just again due to being able to accelerate in between. I noticed I lost speed in medium radius turns at high speed, because no matter how grippy my tires were (in fact, grippy tires weigh more and were counter productive to some extent), I couldn't go through the turn faster than a certain speed, dictated by the radius. If I did, I simply slid sideways to the outside of hte turn, so I had to slow down a bit before, and then pedal a bit more out of the turn. No problems in switchbacks with modern 29er geometry, wheel-catchers were non-existent, high speed turns were great, but I always bled speed in those medium turns, both when riding with other fast riders setting the pace and racing by myself on a course. The wheels are inherently more flexy, but carbon rims can solve that for the most part IME. The weight though that I mentioned above is usually not well appreciated. Most people's experience is with maybe 30mm 29er rims and XC to AM 2.3ish tires. Put real DH rubber on a real rim, like a Maxxis DHF/DHR, you get a totally difference sense of rotational mass, it's not like on the lighter stuff. Faster on some courses? I'm sure it is. Faster most of the time? Highly doubt it, definitely wasn't true for me. Unless courses are redesigned for 29ers, I think they'll still be a niche. It's cool to see more options and I really appreciate the long-travel AM 29ers that have showed up. Now they are more than just goofy-a$$ bikes with 18.5" chainstays that the manufacturers never gave much of a thought to, they are actually engineered as a system to have great geometry and the travel necessary to get the job done. I like 29er in general for many things, but 29er DH is something that I don't expect will really take hold. I could be wrong, but based on what I experienced running them DH and with DH rubber, I ain't going to switch back for a long long time.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see more "mixer" bikes though, with 29 front and 27.5 rear, that may blur the lines a little more with less significant differences between it and bikes of either bigger or smaller wheels on both ends.
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    Though we might see a majority of pro riders switching to 29" DH bikes, I predict they will eventually go back to 27.5" for some courses. There are simply too many variations in DH course layouts to say that even a well-designed 29er DH rig would be fastest in all conditions. I think the size of the rider plays a huge role too. My only 29er is a hardtail that is actually probably a size down from what the manufacturer would recommend for my height (5' 10"), and it still feels kind of large and unwieldy in really tight cornering situations. I don't like how it feels in the air either -- always feels like there's too much bike under me, as opposed to my nimble 26" SX Trail.

    Like Jayem said above, once you run real DH tires on real 29" DH-capable rims, there's a substantial weight and gyroscopic penalty. On an ultra-gnar course that is mostly fall-line descending, you bet -- a 29er would rock in those conditions. But if it's ultra-gnar with lots of tight corners and maybe a few flat spots -- I think a 27.5 bike would eat the 9er for lunch.

    Personally, I'll keep riding my 26er, as it has perfect geometry, 180mm of travel at both ends, and I'm faster on it than 99% of the riders I encounter out there, regardless of what they're on. If I was racing pro, sure, I'd upgrade.

    You know, I wonder if anybody is comparing the times pros are getting on these new bikes to what they used to get on 26ers. I mean, are these new bikes really faster, or are pros just getting better and better?
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    The other thing is that a Dorado 29er paired up with a PBJ/LB, E29, WFO, BMC TF, NP Mega29, has been available for years. If they were really a few seconds faster (a few seconds is an eternity in a race), privateers would have been smashing the courses with them for years and beating everyone on smaller wheeled bikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookiemonster View Post
    if i was racing pro, sure, i'd downgrade.
    fyp

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    No, 29ers do not go down hills, only up.
    You must push or be shuttled back down.
    My wife can get her 29r about anywhere but I think a lot of smart husbands realize how powerful their wives are and know not to ask certain questions.
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    29er's will be the normal wheel size in all mountain bike classes. DH is just the next area to realize the speed advantage. They are not slower on tight course, just require a slightly different technique. They are slower to get up to speed, but don't lose the speed over rough terrain and save a significant amount of energy muting trial chatter. They also have more grip with a superior contact patch. The only people that shouldn't run them are the very short.

  49. #49
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    At the 2017 HSBC British Downhill Series (May 13-14), 29ers took the top two spots. Not sure exactly what everyone else was riding but I know Danny Hart and Loic Bruni were on the wagon wheels. It isn't the UCI World Cup with a stacked field, but it is indeed very interesting to see 29ers at the top.

    Results.
    https://www.rootsandrain.com/race470...lliam/results/

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_Was_Here View Post
    Has any one rode a Downhill MTB Trail with a 29er? If so, how did it go?
    Sure, someone even won the British Downhill Series stop at Ft William on a 29er this past weekend.

  51. #51
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    Trek Session 29er 5 seconds faster than the Sessions 27.5" on a 2:20 minute course.

    And why do we have 27.5" again? Oh, that's right, as a stepping stone to 29"

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/riding...n-29-2017.html

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Trek Session 29er 5 seconds faster than the Sessions 27.5" on a 2:20 minute course.

    And why do we have 27.5" again? Oh, that's right, as a stepping stone to 29"

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/riding...n-29-2017.html
    Pinkbike was also on the 27.5 bandwagon back in 2013.

    The 29r wheel is not something new to Enduro racing. Why are they not all on 29rs? If its the fastest wheel size...why do riders till choose to ride the 27.5?

  53. #53
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    100% dependent on the track, put it on a berm coaster and it will probably be at least 5 seconds slower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kitejumping View Post
    100% dependent on the track, put it on a berm coaster and it will probably be at least 5 seconds slower.
    Why, because 27.5" is more agile or "flickable"?

    You know what's more agile than a 27.5"? Ya, a 26".

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    And trek tested it!!!

    They said "Trek’s own test put it at up to three seconds per minute faster – that’s scarily significant. Perhaps even more significant is that through all their testing, Trek found no areas where 650b was faster than 29 inch – tight turns, jumps, you name it – at best, they were on par."

    https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-re...3v1A0U5hxdI.99

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Why, because 27.5" is more agile or "flickable"?

    You know what's more agile than a 27.5"? Ya, a 26".
    It is, my 26 is way more fun in the air than a 27.5. The big wheels keep the geometry from being fun.

  57. #57
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    I've come to the conclusion that all bikes, XC to DH, are converging on a single wheel size - most likely 29", and honestly, I don't really care. Either way, I really would like everything to have the same standards, everything being 29" with the same hub spacing would actually be pretty sweet, and it would also help prices come down as there would have to be less variation. With that said, haters are still going to hate.

    EDIT: oh, and for the record, I have three bikes and all are still 26".

  58. #58
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    Dirt jump and slope bikes will never change from 26". 26" and 29" should have been the only two standards but the industry pushed 27.5 and now we are stuck with it.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitejumping View Post
    It is, my 26 is way more fun in the air than a 27.5. The big wheels keep the geometry from being fun.
    You just have to find the right 29'er frame.

    Seen a Canfield hardtail hit every line at whistler.

    Fade to black everything.

    I'm riding a 29er in the vid in my signature
    Hardtail downhill
    https://youtu.be/sXhWDoz7_CM
    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    tresspassing, thievery and poaching is all part of a DH'ers life

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1ORBUST View Post
    You just have to find the right 29'er frame.

    Seen a Canfield hardtail hit every line at whistler.

    Fade to black everything.

    I'm riding a 29er in the vid in my signature
    The video in your signature is the type of terrain 29ers are awesome for, straight line chunky rock gardens. Here is an example of a trail a 29er would be slower on:




  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitejumping View Post
    The video in your signature is the type of terrain 29ers are awesome for, straight line chunky rock gardens. Here is an example of a trail a 29er would be slower on:
    By that logic, 20 inch bike would be even better for smooth tracks.

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    ^exactly. I mean check out this video of this so called 29er. No way can you ride like that on big wheels. Total CGI in the video.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/video/471039

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    Or drift, scrub and whip on a 29er... no way

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/kirt-v...ideo-2017.html

  64. #64
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    Where are the 29ers? Yes, they can do everything, but certain things are just better and easier on smaller wheels.

  65. #65
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    Just watch the ending, obviously smaller wheels are better

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    And trek tested it!!!

    They said "Trek’s own test put it at up to three seconds per minute faster – that’s scarily significant. Perhaps even more significant is that through all their testing, Trek found no areas where 650b was faster than 29 inch – tight turns, jumps, you name it – at best, they were on par."

    https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-re...3v1A0U5hxdI.99
    For the gullible masses?

    There's no way. I know of some specific situations where they are faster, and some specific situations where they are slower. This reeks of a company that wants to sell you something.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    For the gullible masses?

    There's no way. I know of some specific situations where they are faster, and some specific situations where they are slower. This reeks of a company that wants to sell you something.
    At least Trek is actually saying it's faster and giving times vs Giant who just puts out BS graphs and charts with incorrect calculations.

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