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  1. #51
    NWS
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak View Post
    Yes, vindicates.
    Inconceivable.

  2. #52
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    They should make shoes with integrated spindle that directly fit into the crank arm pedal thread, so no need of pedals

    David
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    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    Inconceivable.
    I don't think that word means what you think it means

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  4. #54
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    Hi Folks,

    I was disappointed at the lack of information that came out of Interbike on the latest generation of flat pedals. If anyone else found data they'd like to share I'd appreciate hearing about it.

    However I was able to find out the latest on this offering. They've been renamed the "PILOT" and you can learn more about them at the 3:09 mark on this promotional video:

    SF Bike Expo Title sponsor VP Components at Interbike 2011 on Vimeo

    Their product manager was kind enough to share the following timeline with me:

    "production in January... will be available springs 2012..."

    I hope the durability issue is solved because this version of the product looks very nice!

    I wonder what is happening with the Specialized uber thin pedal????

    Take care,

    Michael

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelsnead View Post
    Hi Folks,

    While Mtbr.com is my first choice for news of the mountain bike world it looks like Pinkbike has shared a lot more info about this cool looking pedal. Here is what I found:

    VP Prototype Pedals - Sea Otter Day 3 - Pinkbike.com

    “When it hits production, VP's DH-1 will be their premium platform pedal, as well as the thinnest at just 6mm (not including pins). VP can use such a drastically slim body on the DH-1's because of the novel short axle that does not run through the entire width of the body - each pedal axle is well under two inches long! The stubby, but very stout looking axles will ride on a paring of a very large sealed bearing and a loose ball system. If you are wondering why VP would use a loose ball bearing, it is because it allows them to use much larger and more resilient ball bearings because they do not need the extra room of the sealed bearing's inner and outer bearing races. While the bulge in the pedal body that houses both bearings looks quite large, it is actually in the same position is the wrench flats found on a more standard pedal. Expect to see a production version of the DH-1's that will have a more refined body shape and possibly different pin positions during our coverage of Interbike 2011.”

    Suddenly September feels like a long way off for this excited consumer!

    Take care,

    Michael
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    Vindicates?
    You know I just re-read my post and NWS was right. VIndicates is not the right word. I know everyone here has moved on, but just to set the record straight... I honestly can't recall WTF I was trying to express up there regarding Spec, Canfiled, and Flypaper. If anything, Spec's pedal design suggests that the single bearing design (a la Flypaper, Tioga, VP) is NOT the way to go. Opposite of vindicates.

    Looks like I gave up on drugs a little too late.
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  6. #56
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    That was fun.

  7. #57
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    Vindication! Better late than never.

  8. #58
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    I like my Spank Spikes. So far, so good. I'm 200+gear, so they will get a work out. So far an improvement over my Wahwahs...

    They are 12mm thin, so not quite super thin, but probably the best option right now.


  9. #59
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    I think that some of the trepidation with uber thin pedals, comes from a pedal that is so thin, has to be huge in order to handle the (usually) greater weight of the average DH rider. I'm not one who habitually smashes my pedals on everything, but part of that I believe is because my old pedals, while thicker, didn't stick out from my shoes. From the pics in this thread, the super thin pedals look giant. And I'll certainly allow that I'm bringing up a non-issue from other people's perspective.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWS View Post
    Vindication! Better late than never.
    Oh stop it with your gloating
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CombatMutt View Post
    I think that some of the trepidation with uber thin pedals, comes from a pedal that is so thin, has to be huge in order to handle the (usually) greater weight of the average DH rider. I'm not one who habitually smashes my pedals on everything, but part of that I believe is because my old pedals, while thicker, didn't stick out from my shoes. From the pics in this thread, the super thin pedals look giant. And I'll certainly allow that I'm bringing up a non-issue from other people's perspective.
    It's kind of an optical illusion... the Spikes are within 1/4" of my Wahwahs and actually have a smaller platform area because of the tapered ends.

    My Wahwahs are 17mm, the Spikes are 12mm thick, and it is a noticeable difference, both in clearance and stability.

    I can also see why the single bearing pedals wouldn't be strong enough... the Flypapers needed a modified crank for a good reason.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CombatMutt View Post
    I think that some of the trepidation with uber thin pedals, comes from a pedal that is so thin, has to be huge in order to handle the (usually) greater weight of the average DH rider. .
    Your speculation is incorrect. There are thick pedals with big platform area, thick pedals with small platform area, thin pedals with small platform area, etc etc.

    No correlation between thickness and platform area. Also note that increasing platform area does not 'spread' the rider weight out in any useful way. All the force will be concentrated in the spindle interface, regardless of platform size.
    Originally posted by bucksaw87
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  13. #63
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    WTF is the problem???

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelsnead View Post
    .

    I agree with you that it's unacceptable to have to replace bottom bracket and cranks in order to gain the advantage provided by the Fly Paper pedals. However, I believe they did engineer the Fly Paper pedal to be strong enough to withstand the rigors of the application.

    All that brings us to this crop of new thin pedals that will debut at Interbike. If they can handle the durability issue then we'll have the best of all worlds with conventional mounting combined with contact point well inside the diameter of the spindle. Time will tell!
    Michael
    All of you people who snivel and whine about having to replace your crappy 9/16" threaded cranks in order to get the full advantage of running a super thin pedal just totally blow my mind. I just wonder if you same people whined and sniveled about having the get a new frame to enjoy the benefits of rear suspension, ("Why can't someone come out with a decent rear suspension that just bolts onto my existing hardtail frame?"), or about having to replace that first full suspension frame AND their fork AND both hubs, in order to enjoy the benefits of disc brakes.

    The only thing that I can possibly imagine is that all of the Luddite whiners must be plants from bigger companies that have a vested interest in keeping all of the rest of you from switching to a superior technology that they would have to liscense, since they don't hold the patent on it.

    As for durability of the pedal body, bearing shaft and bearings, FlyPaper Pedals have proven over the past 4 1/2 years to be superior to all other designs, with not a single bent or broken pedal EVER, and with only a handful of people, all of them daily riders, who have been able to wear out a set of bearings, which are standard items that Quality Bicycle Parts, Bicycle Technologies International and many other distributors carry, and which are easily replaced, in 20 minutes or so.

    Looking at the Tiogas, and knowing what I know about material strength and design, those things scare me. I wouldn't ride them. In fact, if you check out the article about them on Bike Magazine's web site, Interbike: Vernon Tioga warns against using them for downhill or freeride:

    "So, will it hold up? Yeah, that’s the real question. Tioga is clear on this point: the ZEROaxle is not meant to be a DH or freeride pedal—this is supposed to be a trail/All Mountain model. We’ll see…."

    Which means that they are probably fine for sidewalk use, as long as you're not Danny Macaskill or weighing over 150 pounds...

    FlyPaper Pedals? NO wieght limit & No riding restrictions. They are Rampage worthy and Josh Benderproof. (I know that might sound like some far fetched claims to some of you, but I used to sponsor Josh Bender out of my shop for three years, and I am the one who discovered the first site of the Red Bull Rampage that they used in 2001, '02, '03 & '04, and I have spent hundreds of hours on that terrain, working with numerous film crews and countless top free riders, filming extreme mountain bike videos, and have attended every one of the Rampages.)
    Last edited by Bike Doc; 10-13-2011 at 05:47 PM. Reason: typo
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  14. #64
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    ^^flypaper pedal designer, or just a strong advocate? what's the weight of the crankset used?


    i myself want to jump on the super thin pedal bandwagon, but its too early for me to try...ill wait till more seat-time is had on various model ~11mm thick pedals.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc View Post
    All of you people who snivel and whine about having to replace your crappy 9/16" threaded cranks in order to get the full advantage of running a super thin pedal just totally blow my mind. I just wonder if you same people whined and sniveled about having the get a new frame to enjoy the benefits of rear suspension, ("Why can't someone come out with a decent rear suspension that just bolts onto my existing hardtail frame?"), or about having to replace that first full suspension frame AND their fork AND both hubs, in order to enjoy the benefits of disc brakes.

    The only thing that I can possibly imagine is that all of the Luddite whiners must be plants from bigger companies that have a vested interest in keeping all of the rest of you from switching to a superior technology that they would have to liscense, since they don't hold the patent on it.

    As for durability of the pedal body, bearing shaft and bearings, FlyPaper Pedals have proven over the past 4 1/2 years to be superior to all other designs, with not a single bent or broken pedal EVER, and with only a handful of people, all of them daily riders, who have been able to wear out a set of bearings, which are standard items that Quality Bicycle Parts, Bicycle Technologies International and many other distributors carry, and which are easily replaced, in 20 minutes or so.

    Looking at the Tiogas, and knowing what I know about material strength and design, those things scare me. I wouldn't ride them. In fact, if you check out the article about them on Bike Magazine's web site, Interbike: Vernon Tioga warns against using them for downhill or freeride:

    "So, will it hold up? Yeah, that’s the real question. Tioga is clear on this point: the ZEROaxle is not meant to be a DH or freeride pedal—this is supposed to be a trail/All Mountain model. We’ll see…."

    Which means that they are probably fine for sidewalk use, as long as you're not Danny Macaskill or weighing over 150 pounds...

    FlyPaper Pedals? NO wieght limit & No riding restrictions. They are Rampage worthy and Josh Benderproof. (I know that might sound like some far fetched claims to some of you, but I used to sponsor Josh Bender out of my shop for three years, and I am the one who discovered the first site of the Red Bull Rampage that they used in 2001, '02, '03 & '04, and I have spent hundreds of hours on that terrain, working with numerous film crews and countless top free riders, filming extreme mountain bike videos, and have attended every one of the Rampages.)
    Hi Dean,

    Thanks for joining our humble discussion of unique, flat pedals!

    Everyone....this is the guy who thought up and created the FlyPaper pedal.

    Although you might not be able to tell it from his post I believe his pedal is the best one currently in the market....if you didn't have to replace your cranks and bottom bracket in order to use them. All that aside Dean's pedals are wonderful and at only 3.9mm thick they offer a completely different connection to the bike than I've ever experienced on any other flat pedal. I say that even though I use the Canfield Crampons on three of my bikes. The Crampons offer an advantage over what I was previously using but they're not as nice as Dean's FlyPaper pedal. The difference in "roll over" between the two pedals is dramatic with the FlyPaper being the clear winner.

    Unfortunately, I believe Dean is in the position of a lot of other innovative, clever inventors. He proved the concept and illustrated the value of the innovation but his specific solution has an aspect the market doesn't embrace. To wit...his solution requires the replacement of your cranks and bottom bracket in order to reap the benefit of the uber thin pedal.

    I share his concern over the design and execution of the Tioga ZEROaxle pedal. Indeed the disclaimer put out by Tioga tells me they didn't design it to be as strong as Dean's pedals. Personally, I'm pinning my hopes on the VP Components PILOT pedal but only time and experience will tell if they can pull off an uber thin pedal using conventional 9/16" threaded cranks.

    Best case to me would be if Dean were to re-design his pedals to work conventionally so that the guy who came up with the original idea would receive the benefit. And I would finally get a uber thin pedal like Dean's that would work on my XT cranks!

    Thanks,

    Michael
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelsnead View Post
    Personally, I'm pinning my hopes on the VP Components PILOT pedal but only time and experience will tell if they can pull off an uber thin pedal using conventional 9/16" threaded cranks.

    Michael
    I bet they can't.

    I definitely would buy into the flypaper pedal/crank system, but for myself and I'm sure many others it would be difficult financially. DH bikes cost enough just in tire and brake wear... add in broken/worn out parts and it gets even worse. If I had the cash I'd do it though, it would be a pretty significant upgrade IMO. I had the opportunity to check them out in person at a CO resort and they are sweet, nothing else comes even close.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc View Post
    As for durability of the pedal body, bearing shaft and bearings, FlyPaper Pedals have proven over the past 4 1/2 years to be superior to all other designs
    No pedal will come close to the Fly Papers when it comes to durability, thinness, and purity of purpose. Dean didn't compromise on his design the way VP and Tioga have. Kudoz to him. But painting yourself into a corner with proprietary cranks and BBs?...it's all been said before. Folks aren't sniveling and whining. To sign up to Fly Papers one has to essentially walk away from BB and crankset innovations and marry yourself to the cranks that came with your uber-durable Fly Papers. What's illegitimate about that concern?

    Or you can compromise and pick up a pair of 11-17 mm pedals, which you can move from *****in' crankset to *****in' crankset.

    Whatever, I ride 16 year old Deore cranks anyway. But Dean's bitter attitude is an albatross around his product's neck.
    Last edited by buddhak; 10-16-2011 at 06:16 PM.
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  18. #68
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    Josh Benderproof. A good point.

  19. #69
    NWS
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    Cost to try most pedals = cost of the pedals themselves.

    Cost to try flypaper pedals = cost of the pedals + cost of cranks + cost of bottom bracket.

    Peoples' resulting behavior = perfectly predictable.

    Inventor accusing those people of sniveling and whining = priceless.

    Seriously, how did you not see that coming? I'm sure it's a nice system but did you seriously expect hordes of people to replace their cranks and bottom brackets just to try your pedals? Did you expect that nobody would think or talk about the additional cost of trying your pedals?

  20. #70
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    There's a lot more to the story...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seriously, how did you not see that coming? I'm sure it's a nice system but did you seriously [I
    expect [/I]hordes of people to replace their cranks and bottom brackets just to try your pedals? Did you expect that nobody would think or talk about the additional cost of trying your pedals?
    First of all, I expected a bigger company like SRAM to liscense the design from me and produce the pedals and cranks with bearing cups forged into the ends in such huge volumes, that the cost would be comparable, or most likely, SLIGHTLY LOWER than the cost of producing an old school set of cranks and pedals. Actually, producing a crank set with bearing cups forged into the end, rather than machining pedal threads, or inserting a threaded steel insert, should be a bit cheaper; and if someone were to forge the FlyPaper Pedal bodies, rather than machining them, they would be far cheaper to produce than most old school spindle type pedals.

    Unfortunately, the up front, start-up costs of making forging dies is well beyond my means, with the cost per die being $5000 - $ 8000 each, and left & right crank arms requiring different dies. Also, it may well require more than one die to go form a raw block of aluminum to a finished crank arm or finished pedal. That, and the fact that riders prefer to have a choice of two or three different lengths of cranks, and that my next pedal design will have right and left specific pedal bodies, means at least 8, and maybe as many as 16 different forging dies would be needed, and that doesn't even include the cost of having a forge to use the dies in, or making extrusion dies and the subsequent extrusions to get the blank blocks to forge into pedal bodies from, or the cost of a CNC mill and a CNC lathe to do the finishing operations on the pedal bodies and cranks. If I only had half to three quarters of a million in money up front for these things and a few other minor things, I could be selling you a set of cranks and pedals for somewhere between $275 - $399 retail, after going through a distributor and a bike shop, rather than $579 with no room for any middle men.

    If you or anyone else reading this has any connections to people with this equipment, or access to the necessary investment capital, or any other ideas on how I can produce the FlyPaper Pedals in a more cost effective manner, I would love to hear from you.

    As for riders, I am quite surprised at how many people have let the cost of the FlyPaper Pedals, and/or the issue of replacing cranks, deter them from replacing their old school, spindle type pedals. Maybe it's just because I know how much better the FlyPapers work, and how much better they feel, so I see them as being worth what they cost and then some; meanwhile, someone who has never had the opportunity to try them, or better yet, to ride them long enough to figure out how to get the maximum benefit out of them, would have a hard time conceiving in their mind what a superthin pedal would feel like, or even understanding what the benefits might be.

    To me, the only advancement in mountain bikes that clearly is superior to my pedal design is suspension. Disc brakes are perhaps, in some situations, more important than to me than my pedals, but when I look at how much of the time I spend pedaling versus braking, (I ride all mountain and trail.), and how many situations where disc brakes actually have any real improvement on my riding performance over V-brakes, I would have to say that my pedals are responsible for more improvement in my riding performance and enjoyment than any other advancement in mountain biking besides my suspension. So, from that perspective, and from the experience of riding the FlyPapers for the last 4 1/2 years, it is hard for me to fathom how much resistance there has been to the crank arm issue, or even the cost.

    The final thing I should mention, is that I tend to put a high value on durability, and am not overly concerned with the weight of my bike. My up, down, all around, everyday, everywhere bike currently weighs 45 1/2 pounds and has a 2.8" front tire and a 2.7 on the rear. About five years ago, my bike weighed 48 1/4 pounds. I have been known to go to Flagstaff and climb for hours on that bike. I have also ridden it UP (From the bathrooms at the bottom of the mountain, to the starting box at the top.) the mountain at Boulder City on more than one occassion. So, for me, a few ounces of additional crank weight is no big deal, and is more than offset by the strength and durability of the FSA Gravity GAP Crankset and the super durable double row bearings that they use in their bottom bracket. While I somewhat understand the position taken by the weight weenies, I was still surprised that they would resist the extra weight of the cranks, especially since I know from personal experience that the extra power produced by a super thin pedal,let alone all of the other benefits, more than makes up for the small amount of additional weight. Running a wide, knobby tire adds quite a bit of weight over running a 23mm wide road slick, but I doubt many of you would want to run the road slicks on your mountain bike...
    Last edited by Bike Doc; 10-17-2011 at 12:53 AM. Reason: typo
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  21. #71
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    i didnt realize how many mtbrs still ride flats lol certainly very few where i ride but then again i dont ride downhill yet haha
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  22. #72
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    First you say:
    "replacing their old school, spindle type pedals"
    Then you say:
    "how many situations where disc brakes actually have any real improvement on my riding performance over V-brakes"

    I say:
    "LOL"

    You're claiming every pedal every rider today has on their bike (spindle) is old school, and your "innovation" is the new best thing. How is a spindle pedal old school when it is what every rider uses and every company sells. How many people are riding your pedals? Your design means the customer has to forfeit every advancement that can be made in cranks in order to save 9/16" on the pedal body. Now what I would call the new best thing.
    Then you talk about disc brakes hardly being an advantage over v-brakes. Really? I have never noticed a bigger improvement in my riding than when I switched to disc brakes. I have a hard time believing that there is a crank-forfeiting improvement in thinner pedals from someone who doesn't even notice the advantage of discs over v-brakes.

    FlyPaper pedals are a product you're trying to make stick in a market that doesn't want them. Pun Intended.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by illnotsick View Post
    Your design means the customer has to forfeit every advancement that can be made in cranks in order to save 9/16" on the pedal body. Now what I would call the new best thing.

    FlyPaper pedals are a product you're trying to make stick in a market that doesn't want them. Pun Intended.
    WTF are you talking about? That makes NO SENSE at all. His idea WOULD BE AN ADVANCEMENT!

    And a market that doesn't want them? Ridiculous ********e... if you haven't noticed, the trend in pedals is to make them thinner. The only issue is the way pedals are attached to the cranks require a pedal with an axle down the middle to be strong enough, keeping the pedal from being as thin as it could. So a new standard that doesn't require that a pedal have an axle is bad? More ridiculous ********e... if SRAM or Shimano picked up the idea I'm SURE you'd be singing a different tune.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    WTF are you talking about? That makes NO SENSE at all. His idea WOULD BE AN ADVANCEMENT!

    And a market that doesn't want them? Ridiculous ********e... if you haven't noticed, the trend in pedals is to make them thinner. The only issue is the way pedals are attached to the cranks require a pedal with an axle down the middle to be strong enough, keeping the pedal from being as thin as it could. So a new standard that doesn't require that a pedal have an axle is bad? More ridiculous ********e... if SRAM or Shimano picked up the idea I'm SURE you'd be singing a different tune.
    I'm singing the same tune as everyone else who rides "old school" 9/16" spindle pedals (which would be everyone.)

    I'm saying giving up mainstream cranks and pedals for a 9/16" decrease in pedal clearance at the expense of a clunky homemade cranks set is not an improvement, it's stupid. I have pre-runners which are pretty thin, and I'm not about to give up my saints in order to get a little more clearance.
    SRAM and Shimano haven't picked up the idea because it's not plausible. The bearing is going to extend past the pedal body whether it's in the crank arm or on the outside edge of the pedal body. Pedal strikes are less expensive than crank arm strikes.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by illnotsick View Post
    I'm singing the same tune as everyone else who rides "old school" 9/16" spindle pedals (which would be everyone.)

    I'm saying giving up mainstream cranks and pedals for a 9/16" decrease in pedal clearance at the expense of a clunky homemade cranks set is not an improvement, it's stupid. I have pre-runners which are pretty thin, and I'm not about to give up my saints in order to get a little more clearance.
    SRAM and Shimano haven't picked up the idea because it's not plausible. The bearing is going to extend past the pedal body whether it's in the crank arm or on the outside edge of the pedal body. Pedal strikes are less expensive than crank arm strikes.
    Pedals are a much bigger target for rock strikes than crank arms, and I don't think the crank arms would have to be longer than they are now to incorporate a bearing instead of pedal threads. Thinner pedals obviously have more clearance over rocks... I noticed a huge difference going to 17mm Wahwahs, and now I have 12mm Spank Spikes and the extra 2.5mm clearance is very noticeable. The flypapers at under 4mm would be a huge improvement over any current pedal choices.

    I agree the modified cranks weren't ideal and are a big issue, but if a major company picked up the idea we'd have similar crank choices than what we do now. I also don't think the idea isn't plausible because of engineering issues, it would just be a major change in standards which is the real issue. I'm surprised nobody has bought the idea yet...

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