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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    no long-term test, but have a little. craftsmanship is incredible. geometry is great. stiff yet compliant. handles incredibly, especially during hard cornering/braking (15mm through-axle). fun to ride on gravel or singletrack. a great road bike with skinnies. a great "do-all" bike. best warranty on the market.

    i plan on getting one this fall.




    Many thanks.

  2. #27
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    "Plan ahead. I mean, yeah keep your weight back and try to keep the bike from losing traction (this is an MTB skill really; you do that crouched half-seated thing where you sort of hump the nose of the saddle and engage your hamstrings), but be prepared to step off the bike."

    Yes, I am getting much better at planning ahead and shifting my weight to maintain traction but as you imply, there will always be a few situation where one looses headway and needs to dismount. I will think about/practice the back-of-the-saddle dismount.
    "I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end, and if it is, I am the only one who can win it." - Prefontaine

  3. #28
    little mad riding hood
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    lfr's no-fail one hour dismount skills clinic

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Rain View Post
    Yes, I am getting much better at planning ahead and shifting my weight to maintain traction but as you imply, there will always be a few situation where one looses headway and needs to dismount. I will think about/practice the back-of-the-saddle dismount.
    okay. Really I am not trying to be snarky but if you're planning to do gravel grinders, trail rides, racing of any sort, or just improve your riding skillset you do need to concentrate on learning this dismount skill. Seriously.

    Riding a 'cross bike is not like riding an MTB. And MTB or 'cross racing is NOT trials riding. You don't get any bonus points for riding stuff at the risk of bailing / crashing or just riding it slowly and awkwardly, especially if it's something you could have easily dismounted and run through. Fully 3/4ths of the time it's something you'll burn fewer matches / save energy by running, too.

    I know MTB riders have this stubborn "ride-it-at-all-costs" mentality, but trust me there are lots and lots of situations where it is far easier and faster to run something than ride it, and running something is 100% of the time faster and less painful than crashing. I mean hell, one of my first MTB Beginner races back in the days of toeclips and thumbshifters I passed forty guys in the first 100 yards of singletrack because half the field crashed in a creek crossing and I popped a quick CX dismount and ran past all of 'em. Never saw most of them for the rest of the race, either. These skills have saved my ass in quite a few urban riding situations too.

    So without further ado, I present to you the text based dismount clinic.

    1) Lube your pedals and cleats, and check both for wear. If you have SPDs, consider swapping to a better system (ok now I am being snarky, but only slightly). Seriously, anytime I have to line up other than on the front row in a 'cross race, I look for riders using SPDs and line up ANYWHERE but behind them, and that goes double for muddy days.

    2) Go find yourself a nice flat grass area in a park, soccer field, wherever. It needs to be big/long enough to practice several dismounts in a row.

    3) put your bike in the easiest gear, and from a just-faster-than walking pace, with your hands on the brake hoods, practice clipping out your RIGHT foot, and for now, just wave your leg around and get used to "disengaging" what your lower body is doing from your upper body. Keep your hands light and your elbows loose, and look where you're going, not at your feet or the front wheel. The first step is to get used to riding in a straight line, swinging your leg without hitting the bike or affecting your line of travel.

    4) When you're comfortable with that and can unclip / swing your leg around without hitting the bike or weaving all over the place (a bit of speed helps), now practice swinging your free leg up behind the saddle / over the rear wheel, and onto to the non-drive side. Lean the bike over to the left a couple degrees (countersteer) to steady it. PRO TIP: Steady the bike further by leaning your right hipbone into the saddle as you lean the frame slightly to the left. This makes a "tripod" and is far more stable than not using your body weight to hold the bike straight. Practice this a few times up and down and get comfortable with the motion - just swing your leg over, ride a few feet, then swing it back. Use enough speed that you don't have to worry about momentum.

    5) So now you're rolling along nice and relaxed in a half-dismount whilst standing fully on the non-driveside with your hands calmly gripping the hoods (no death grip, please), all your weight on the ball of your LEFT foot (still clipped in please), and your right foot ready to step down. DO NOT attempt to do the "grapevine" dismount (weaving your right foot thru past the crankarm). Most CX coaches no longer teach this technique anymore as it's too risky (see "Joey" cyclocross video on Youtube for why). I also do not encourage you to unclip your left foot prior to stepping off. There's a few reasons for this, the least of which it's encouraging bad habits, and besides, if you hit a bump you can easily re-engage the pedal without realizing it...

    7) Now, just step off whilst unclipping your left foot. Because you're twisting your hips / leg / body towards the back of the bike by stepping your right foot behind the left, this also helps encourage your left pedal to naturally disengage - but make sure the first few times you do this to exaggerate the twisting motion so that your pedal releases. Over time and practice, this will become a seamless, natural motion and you'll wonder why you ever worried your pedal wouldn't unclip.

    6) Now just lift up the bike by grabbing the top or downtube (dictated by situation / preference) and beat feet. Some CX coaches try to teach riders to reach down for the top/downtube AS they're dismounting, but tbh I have never seen pros / elite riders do this, and to me it seems too risky, especially if you're in dire conditions.

    ANOTHER PRO TIP: If you know you're going to be in dicey footing / mud / slick stuff, don't be afraid to run toe spikes. I use short toe spikes even in summer MTB races, because there's invariably some crappy horrendous thing I have to hike that requires the additional traction.

    Once you've got these basic drills down, just practice a lot. Like, learn how to do it on asphalt, on gravel, on mud, wherever. Practice dismounts every time you're getting on and off your bike during / after a ride, your daily commute, whatever.

    Re-mounting is just a hop / vault back on, but if you want to do it properly, practice from a very slow walk first to encourage proper technique. The easiest way to pick up a hop / stutter step (and/or jam your nuts) is to rush this process. Basically you just lift up your right leg and slide your thigh onto the saddle, and push off hard with the left foot. No leaping, no bouncing, no drama. Practice this a hundred times before you add any speed or try to jog. Keep the bike close to your body and don't "lean" over too much.

    The "panic bail" over the rear of the saddle is different - it's basically where you KNOW you've lost headway and you don't have enough time or momentum to swing one leg over. You just unclip both feet and slide backwards. Let go of the bars as you hit the ground and grab the saddle / top tube as you come around / over the rear wheel to keep the bike going straight, unless you're REALLY tall / with long arms.

    Have fun. These are skills every MTB rider / racer should practice and use.

  4. #29
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    "... Like, beat your ass raw stiff."

    Thanks, I'll cross Ridleys off my list. I am 55 and looking to continue using cycling to crosstrain for my main sport, rowing. I don't need a bone-rattling ride!
    "I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end, and if it is, I am the only one who can win it." - Prefontaine

  5. #30
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    I went with aluminum for cost and perceived durability but I love my Felt CX bike. They have several different models to choose from
    Epic Flash Boris F65X + road bikes

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by donn12 View Post
    I went with aluminum for cost and perceived durability but I love my Felt CX bike. They have several different models to choose from
    My perception is that carbon frames are getting more durable, but they are still perfecting the frame-making process. While I would like something lighter than aluminum, a custom Ti frame is still an option for me. I can get one in the range of $700 to $1300.
    "I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end, and if it is, I am the only one who can win it." - Prefontaine

  7. #32
    little mad riding hood
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Rain View Post
    My perception is that carbon frames are getting more durable, but they are still perfecting the frame-making process. While I would like something lighter than aluminum, a custom Ti frame is still an option for me. I can get one in the range of $700 to $1300.
    Carbon is both easier and cheaper to repair than Al, Ti or steel. Reports of its fragility are greatly overrated.

    I saw a carbon track frame with both top and down tubes sheared in 2 repaired by Brady Kappius (brokencarbon.com) for less than $300, although the owner did not bother to have the repairs repainted (which adds to the cost). The repair adds very little to the weight, and in any case the repaired section is actually stronger than prior to the break.

  8. #33
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    I just did a 200k gravel race on my Crux last weekend, and I was pretty damn happy with it. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of other good choices to do what you want.

    I think if I was choosing a bike specifically for gravel-type riding, I'd definitely give Ti a long hard thought.

    I'm definitely of the standover clearance is overrated school. I have very short legs and a long torso, and so I have basically no clearance on any of my bikes, including MTB. One thing to take into account, though, is that the bottom bracket heights of cross bikes vary by quite a bit. You'll likely want a lower bottom bracket, if you have standover concerns, 'cause that will put the seat closer to the ground and, all else being equal, probably mean increased clearance. Confusingly, bottom bracket heights are generally measured in drop, where a larger number means a lower BB height. Lower BB heights are generally around 65 or 70mm of drop. This is often called "new school" or (sometimes) "American" geometry.

  9. #34
    meh... whatever
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    i've had worse luck with aluminum bikes than i've had with steel, ti, or carbon. almost every aluminum framed bike i've owned long-term has either cracked or catastrophically failed.

    about the only way i'd consider an aluminum frame now would be for a 1-season bike.
    "The meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away."

  10. #35
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    "I think if I was choosing a bike specifically for gravel-type riding, I'd definitely give Ti a long hard thought."

    Yes, Ti is still in the running. I am looking at several custom Ti frame builders in Russia and China. Both can build any geometry I want. If I go with Ti, I might use a geometry similar to the Salsa Warbird:

    2014 Warbird Ti | Bikes | Salsa Cycles

    or the Vaya as mentioned above.

    In your opinion, what are the advantages/disadvantages of carbon and Ti if using the same frame geometry? I have some of my own ideas, but I want to hear what you think.
    "I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end, and if it is, I am the only one who can win it." - Prefontaine

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Rain View Post
    what are the advantages/disadvantages of carbon and Ti if using the same frame geometry? I have some of my own ideas, but I want to hear what you think.
    that varies with how the frames are constructed. you can have two frames of the exact same geometry of the exact same material and they can ride differently due to seatstay shape, bottom bracket area construction/shape, and tube size/shape. likewise, you can have two frames of ti and carbon of the exact same geometry that will ride differently as well. so there's more to it than mere geometry and material.

    an advantage of ti would be the ride. it can be made to be stiff yet somewhat compliant. carbon frames are really catching up in this area though. with a gravel bike vertical compliance is a tad less of an issue due to the higher volume tyres and the surface being ridden.

    carbon, on the other hand, generally has a SUPER STIFF bottom bracket area. pedal and GO! they are catching up in vertical compliance due to seatstay and chainstay design, giving the best of both worlds.

    ti is much more impervious to scratches and impacts from sharp objects than is carbon fiber. however, the general impact area is somewhat limited to the downtube which can be protected on either frame by helicopter tape. if you crash a lot avoid carbon and go ti. carbon is very strong but does not have good impact strength/tolerance.

    if you're wanting a totally custom build, ti would be more cost efficient.
    "The meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away."

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonefrontranger View Post
    1) If you have SPDs, consider swapping to a better system (ok now I am being snarky, but only slightly). Seriously, anytime I have to line up other than on the front row in a 'cross race, I look for riders using SPDs and line up ANYWHERE but behind them, and that goes double for muddy days.
    Good advice. Guys like Sven Nys who ride SPD's are obviously CX newbs who need your enlightenment.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Rain View Post
    In your opinion, what are the advantages/disadvantages of carbon and Ti if using the same frame geometry? I have some of my own ideas, but I want to hear what you think.
    Carbon and Ti/Steel couldn't be more dis-similar in my mind. If you have experience with a higher end steel frame, riding a Ti frame will feel and ride very similar. You may notice a weight difference, if there is one.

    Carbon is so very different in its feel. It's not springy or forgiving in a metal (Ti/Steel) sense. If we're talking road/cross its muted and more deadening. Additionally, carbon is the most interesting in that it can be manipulated so that certain characteristics become more evident. I can't do the technical description justice, but in the last 10 years the field has become downright amazing.

    Like many of us, I have owned Alum, Steel, Carbon, Ti. All have trade offs.

    Alum is typically light, but not particularly forgiving in its ride Usually those bike are more affordable.
    Steel has a little more springy feel, but in nearly all cases rides particularly nice.
    Ti rides a touch more comfortably than steel, and is a touch lighter.
    Carbon rides nothing like any of the above, and can ride well or sometimes kinda harsh.

    I've never owned a stainless frame, like 953 or XCR. I also have not owned anything that was a combo of any of the above, for example, alum with carbon stays, or carbon with Ti lugs.

    I really like the looks of a clean Ti or Steel build. That smaller tubing and clean tube joins have an ascetic appeal. That said, my high end road bike is Carbon, my MTN bike is Carbon, and my Beargrease is Carbon.

    Personally, I'm steering towards a higher end tubing steel gravel grinder, with matching steel fork, decked with Chris King/Thomson goodies and some Carbon hoopies. I love Campy, so it will probably get that drivetrain.
    Last edited by WA-CO; 02-15-2014 at 04:33 PM.

  14. #39
    little mad riding hood
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kris View Post
    Good advice. Guys like Sven Nys who ride SPD's are obviously CX newbs who need your enlightenment.
    yes, and did you see the footage from Hoogerheide of him kicking/banging his pedals to clear them on the road portion of every lap? Also is he riding a preference or a sponsor requirement?

    arguably a Cat 3 or 4 women's field or a Cat 4 or 5 men's field isn't going to be bringing anywhere near the skill of someone like Nys to be able to (or even know how to) clear their cleats or handle the bike while fighting to clip in. I assume most of us on these boards are not world elite level pros.

    I finished ahead of every single SPD user in our first muddy local race this season and most of them are quite a bit faster than I am on dry courses. I have based my start position on hard earned experience from getting punked on the start every single time I lined up behind an SPD user, because they were fumbling for their pedals (see also: Niels Albert's horrible start at Namur) I don't do this stuff for no reason.

    I've ridden SPDs, OnZas, Time, Eggbeaters and Frogs. I've spent 17 seasons on Time. SPDs are absolutely awful in mud. They work fine in the dry. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #40
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    I went from spd, to crank bros, back to spd. Didnt really notice a huge improvement with mud shedding. I find I can clip in faster with spd's. So, when I'm off the bike 5 times per lap, and usually do 7-8 laps, it adds up.

    To shun spd's altogether in cyclocross is just plain silly.

  16. #41
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    I went from SPD to Crank Bros to SPD to Look Quartz and back to SPD. I think why SPD is THE choice of the euro pro is due to the fact they are the easiest to get out of, but yet when you are in, you're in. I found the higher release angle of Crank Bros and Look to be annoying in cross, though I did really like the Look pedals on the mountain bike.

    Anyone happen to notice the pedals Stybar won the worlds on? Shimano 540! A pedal you can buy online for all of $50!

    Sorry for the thread hijack. On the topic at hand, who know, I'm still riding my 10 year old Kona Jake the Snake on the gravel. If I was buying a new cross bike I think the carbon Major Jake would be at the top of my list, but the new Focus bikes are super nice, just not sure I could justify the extra $. For a pure "all-road" bike, forgetting CX racing, and assuming I had lots of money to waste I'd go with a Kona Ti Rove or Ti Salsa Warbird, yummmmmmy.

  17. #42
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    "I went from SPD to Crank Bros to SPD to Look Quartz and back to SPD. I think why SPD is THE choice of the euro pro is due to the fact they are the easiest to get out of, but yet when you are in, you're in. I found the higher release angle of Crank Bros and Look to be annoying in cross, though I did really like the Look pedals on the mountain bike."

    For my purposes, it comes down to choosing a pedal that I like. Period. When I am riding 40-100km of gravel, I only need to dismount a few times anyway. Riding hundreds of kilometers of dry gravel in Kansas is unlike most muddy cyclocross courses.
    "I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end, and if it is, I am the only one who can win it." - Prefontaine

  18. #43
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    I have narrowed the list to the following frames:

    (1) Pivot Vault carbon (or equivalent from Spec, Kona, Grava bikes, etc.): ~$2300

    (2) Chinese carbon (http://www.icanbikes.com/html/Cross_Country/134.html): ~$600

    (3) Custom Ti with Salsa Warbird geometry (2014 Warbird Ti | Bikes | Salsa Cycles) with Enve cross disc fork (http://www.enve.com/forks/disc-cyclocross.aspx): I am still working on the exact quote.

    The difference between option (2) and (3) is about 1 pound in weight. Does that make a difference?

    The company I am thinking of using to potentially hire for custom Ti is the Rapid Company near Moscow (About RAPID Company | RAPID*Company official site). Since 1994, they have produced over 12,000 frames only two have failed:

    Production of Titanic Bicycle Frames | English Russia

    I am tempted to go with option (3) is I can get the frame made done for <$1100. Again, my use is to ride thousands of miles of gravel over the next 20 years. I might do one or two gravel races and a few light tours on the bike, but mostly I want something fast, light, stable, comfortable, and reliable for gravel riding. What do folks think?
    "I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end, and if it is, I am the only one who can win it." - Prefontaine

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Rain View Post
    I am tempted to go with option (3) is I can get the frame made done for <$1100. Again, my use is to ride thousands of miles of gravel over the next 20 years. I might do one or two gravel races and a few light tours on the bike, but mostly I want something fast, light, stable, comfortable, and reliable for gravel riding. What do folks think?
    I've followed the thread and I understand your desire to try carbon fiber, but if you're not racing a lot and want fast, light, stable, comfortable, and reliable, I'd say get a BlackMountainCycles monstercross frame (Black Mountain Cycles: Howdy). It will do everything you're asking for better than any bike you've listed, except the "light" part. It's light enough for steel, but certainly not weight weenie light. Crazy well-designed frameset.

    I say this as a guy who currently owns a Specialized CF Crux, and have built up gravel bikes out of a Niner Air9 and MCR9, owned a Fisticuff, an aluminum Crux, 3 CrossChecks, and the BMC monstercross. For what you've described, the BMC is hands down the choice I'd recommend.

  20. #45
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    At some point, I hope that someone WILL make what will essentially be a carbon version of the BMC bike: relaxed geo with clearance for Bruce Gordon rock n' road tires. For a number of reasons, an uberstiff CX frame made for balls-out 45 minute sprints just isn't the best candidate for a true all-day gravel grinder.

    Salsa almost nailed it with the warbird in terms of geometry, but needlessly limited tire clearance. Same with Ibis.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_Man View Post
    At some point, I hope that someone WILL make what will essentially be a carbon version of the BMC bike: relaxed geo with clearance for Bruce Gordon rock n' road tires. For a number of reasons, an uberstiff CX frame made for balls-out 45 minute sprints just isn't the best candidate for a true all-day gravel grinder.

    Salsa almost nailed it with the warbird in terms of geometry, but needlessly limited tire clearance. Same with Ibis.
    Simple. Unless you plan to use your GG bike as a part-time road bike, any HT CF 29er frame with 6" or more of bottom bracket drop will work just fine. Adjust your fit by shortening the stem to account for the longer top tube than a corresponding CX bike and you're good to go. GG bike that will take 2.3" tires if you need it to. It will work, I've built two. I can share all the tips I learned in the process. I'm going to build a Scott Scale 910 for that very purpose.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Rain View Post
    The difference between option (2) and (3) is about 1 pound in weight. Does that make a difference?
    No. Unless you are racing for Gravel World Championships (I just trademarked that term, $100,000 licensing fee!) it won't make a difference. Even in a race you'd be talking about a handful of seconds over hours IMO. Go for #3 it'll be a super cool bike and the Ti should resist downtube rock chips well.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudge View Post
    I've followed the thread and I understand your desire to try carbon fiber, but if you're not racing a lot and want fast, light, stable, comfortable, and reliable, I'd say get a BlackMountainCycles monstercross frame (Black Mountain Cycles: Howdy). It will do everything you're asking for better than any bike you've listed, except the "light" part. It's light enough for steel, but certainly not weight weenie light. Crazy well-designed frameset.
    I have given the black mountain monstercross frame a hard look. In many ways, it does fit my requirements. Unfortunately, the frame is incompatible with the latest versions of Shimano Ultegra cranks:

    Black Mountain Cycles: Cross frame crank compatibility...

    In my build, I want to use either a Shimano triple (Ultegra 6703) or Shimano double (Utegra 6800) crankset. Also, I want to use a tapered carbon fork---not sure if that would be compatible with the headset in this frame. Finally, I can get a great price on a custom Ti frame.
    "I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end, and if it is, I am the only one who can win it." - Prefontaine

  24. #49
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    I just got a quote from the Rapid Company (see link above). They can build me a custom Ti frame for $830 plus $85 shipping. I will also need to purchase a carbon fork (probably the ENVE fork listed above) for ~$550. Geometry will be based on the Salsa Warbird, but modified for my exact fit and special features like rack mounts. So I am going with option (3) as listed above.

    FYI, I already have nice 26er MTB and will someday purchase a nice 29er so these bikes can handle my rougher road requirements. This custom Warbird will be for riding gentler gravel at killer speeds and for taking blizkrieg tours on bike trails and/or pavement. I'll post updates on my frame and build as this project progresses.

    Thanks everyone for your help!
    "I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end, and if it is, I am the only one who can win it." - Prefontaine

  25. #50
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    Personally, I'd just get some nice, light wheels for the Vaya.
    GRAVELBIKE.COM - ride everything

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