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  1. #1
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    Disc-Only CrossCheck in 2012

    Two CrossChecks in 2012 -

    1. Stays exactly as it has been for years.

    2. Keep the geometry, keep the traditional fork, keep the FFF tire clearance...

    ...just lose the cantis and add disc-mounts.

    PUH-LEASE!

  2. #2
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    You'll lose the nice traditional fork. The forces from a disc brake are applied asymmetrically to the weaker lower part of a traditional fork which is why you'll notice all Surly's with discs use a a really beefy MTB fork.

    If you want a disc brake on your CC just put a different fork on it. The front brake does most of the work so you can just use the rear rim brake lightly or not at all.

    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  3. #3
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    Good luck with that, I'd be suprised if they offered a duplicate model with only one minor variation.
    For the record, I like my CxC without discs. V-brakes and long pull levers provide all the stopping power i need on a cyclocross bike, and I don't have to worry about disc/rack compatibility issues. They look clean without the extra mounts and guides in place.

  4. #4
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    I'd prefer discs for the off-roading I do in winter (water & mud - no snow in Auckland) but the canti's are great for most of my riding. I think if the bike was going to see more duty as a mountainbike I would buy a Salsa Fargo instead.

  5. #5
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    Another vote for keeping it disc-less. Cleaner, lighter, and Vs give me all the power I need. Besides, a rear disc would screw up the rear dropout for single speed use--you couldn't switch gears without moving your disc as well.

  6. #6
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    I saw in one of the surly spews that they acknowledged the racket some discs make. I was excited to see that because I cannot tame the squeal on my one disc-only bike. It might still be me and not discs in general, but it really doesn't make me want to seek out any more disc bikes.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post


    You'll lose the nice traditional fork. The forces from a disc brake are applied asymmetrically to the weaker lower part of a traditional fork which is why you'll notice all Surly's with discs use a a really beefy MTB fork.

    If you want a disc brake on your CC just put a different fork on it. The front brake does most of the work so you can just use the rear rim brake lightly or not at all.

    Singular has one on their Peregrine.

    That being said, I'd gladly run a Dimension 410mm or 1x1 413mm fork.

  8. #8
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    I'm not saying get rid of the canti version but make a disc version as well.

    Most of my bikes are disc only and I just don't see rims as wear items anymore. I've had discs since 2000.

    http://www.singularcycles.com/peregrine.html

    In regards to the dropout: Surly has done it with the KM and 1x1 and the Troll, I believe.

  9. #9
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    I had a Peregrine. That forks weighs three pounds. No thanks.

    The dropout on the KM isn't as nice on the CC: with the CC's angled dropout, you can easily adjust the wheel and not mess up the brakes (I like to run two rings up front and two or three cogs in the back on my CC, no derailer)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockhound View Post

    Most of my bikes are disc only and I just don't see rims as wear items anymore. I've had discs since 2000.
    I've had discs since 2000 as well and my LHT is over 7yrs old with many many thousands of KMs on it and the original rims. My GF commutes daily on her CC and after a year the rims are not showing any significant wear. This is in the PNW. I just don't see rim wear as a major concern. If you ride your disc brake bikes enough you'll have to replace rims simply due to mileage even if you never use a rim brake.

    Surly makes many disc brake frames. If you want discs ride one of them or swap in a disc fork to a CC.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  11. #11
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    Vik has good thoughts. I prefer my cantis

  12. #12
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    I have a disc fork and I'll probably eventually weld a disc tab onto the rear. Rim brakes suck in the winter. It's a Travelers Check so I can't just get the proper frame. The couplers are what's important.

  13. #13
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    I think disc tabs on the LHT makes more sense. Discs become almost necessity when you've got a heavy load of cargo too.

  14. #14
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    From Surly's Blog:

    I’m not saying we won’t ever do this, but here are a few of reasons we’ve avoided disc brakes on road bikes to now:

    1. We like our frames to be versatile and often a set of disc brakes will preclude the use of some other bits like fenders and racks. We like fenders and racks.
    2. There are not many road bike-specific disc brakes, and drop bar brake levers don’t work on mountain handlebars.
    3. Cantilever and linear pull brakes work well for most people on most bikes most of the time.
    4. One of us (who weighs 230lbs and stands about 6’6”) uses v-brakes on his Big Dummy cargo bike – and lives where there are actual hills. He has not died because of this. If he does, we’ll let you know. Also, rim brakes are simple to set up and maintain. When you’re maintaining your own stuff, especially if you’re on a long tour, simple repairability is a really good thing.

    None of this is not to say that discs are a bad idea or you shouldn’t want them or anything like that. We’re just saying that there is a feature of peoples’ desire for discs that in our opinion outpaces the reality of the situation. But who knows? We’re full of surprises.

  15. #15
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    I feel like this topic pops up at least once every 6 months...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostBoyScout View Post
    I think disc tabs on the LHT makes more sense. Discs become almost necessity when you've got a heavy load of cargo too.
    I and thousands of other LHT owners are riding fully loaded touring bikes in the mountains with rim brakes and having no trouble stopping our bikes...

    We’re just saying that there is a feature of peoples’ desire for discs that in our opinion outpaces the reality of the situation.
    +100 - absolutely....
    safe riding,

    Vik
    www.thelazyrando.com

  17. #17
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    I gotta disagree with Vik and Surly on this one. If you want to run STI shifters on a cyclocross or touring bike, then discs (Avid BB7 road) are the only way to go. Cantilevers suck and V-brakes require a cam to make the cable pull work. I'm sure that someone will try to tell me that cantilevers are just as good as discs or V-brakes, but I have lots of personal experience that says they don't stop as well and are harder to adjust. If you put the disc mount inside the rear triangle (Salsa Vaya, Surly Troll) then you can run racks just fine. They are also EASIER to adjust than rim brakes.

    If you run bar end shifters, then V-brakes with Cane Creek SC-5 levers are the hot ticket, but if you run brake/shifter combo levers, then Avid BB7 road discs are the answer. Which means no Crosscheck or LHT, but there's always the Salsa Vaya (but dang are sloping top tubed Salsas fugly).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29 View Post
    I gotta disagree with Vik and Surly on this one. If you want to run STI shifters on a cyclocross or touring bike, then discs (Avid BB7 road) are the only way to go. Cantilevers suck and V-brakes require a cam to make the cable pull work. I'm sure that someone will try to tell me that cantilevers are just as good as discs or V-brakes, but I have lots of personal experience that says they don't stop as well and are harder to adjust. If you put the disc mount inside the rear triangle (Salsa Vaya, Surly Troll) then you can run racks just fine. They are also EASIER to adjust than rim brakes.

    If you run bar end shifters, then V-brakes with Cane Creek SC-5 levers are the hot ticket, but if you run brake/shifter combo levers, then Avid BB7 road discs are the answer. Which means no Crosscheck or LHT, but there's always the Salsa Vaya (but dang are sloping top tubed Salsas fugly).
    I don't run brifters so you address a point I overlook from lack of interest, but that other folks probably care about a lot. Cantis are harder to adjust than either BB7s or v-brakes, but if adjusted correctly there isn't any difference. Having said that I have to refer to Sheldon Brown every time I deal with setting up cantis.



    I think the real issue is losing the nice curved steel fork on the LHT or CC to get a disc compatible fork into the mix. To me that's not worth it to avoid the extra hassle of setting up some cantis correctly.



    The trouble, as you point out with the issue between brifters and v-brakes, is that you can't change only what you want on a bike and keep the other parts you like in the face of physics and bicycle design.

    Brifters don't pull enough cable for v-brakes so that leads you to cantis or road specific disc brakes.

    Disc brakes apply an asymmetrical load to the lower part of a fork which means you lose the classic supple steel fork and get a stiff rigid MTB style fork.

    Mechanical disc brakes need higher force transmitted through the cable to squeeze the small pads on the small rotor to stop the bike vs. rim brakes operating on the much bigger rotor that is the rim which requires less force. The higher force of a mech disc results in a mushy feel at some point as you start to compress the cable housing.

    None of these things is a show stopper, but it does mean that there are always trade offs depending which route you choose to go down.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I think the real issue is losing the nice curved steel fork on the LHT or CC to get a disc compatible fork into the mix. To me that's not worth it to avoid the extra hassle of setting up some cantis correctly.

    The trouble, as you point out with the issue between brifters and v-brakes, is that you can't change only what you want on a bike and keep the other parts you like in the face of physics and bicycle design.

    Brifters don't pull enough cable for v-brakes so that leads you to cantis or road specific disc brakes.

    Disc brakes apply an asymmetrical load to the lower part of a fork which means you lose the classic supple steel fork and get a stiff rigid MTB style fork.

    Mechanical disc brakes need higher force transmitted through the cable to squeeze the small pads on the small rotor to stop the bike vs. rim brakes operating on the much bigger rotor that is the rim which requires less force. The higher force of a mech disc results in a mushy feel at some point as you start to compress the cable housing.

    None of these things is a show stopper, but it does mean that there are always trade offs depending which route you choose to go down.
    You can make a traditional disc fork...

    In addition to Singular, Jamis makes a disc-specific cross/touring fork.
    http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebik...roraelite.html

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vik View Post
    I and thousands of other LHT owners are riding fully loaded touring bikes in the mountains with rim brakes and having no trouble stopping our bikes...
    In good weather, I believe it. But if it's snowing, then another story! I love the LHT but a disc option would be good for a lot of people.

  21. #21
    anyone else smell that?
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    rawland didn't do too bad with the concept. not as pretty as the lht fork, but functional.



    1. Your signature can not be longer than 125 characters.

  22. #22
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    This thread is a little disappointing. I was hoping Surly was a little more forward looking and I was hoping to pick up a disc ready Cross Check in the next year or so. It is extremely sad to see the "we have gotten by with X, so X is all we need" argument. We got by just fine for a hundred thousand years without bicycles, cars, computers, electricity, etc. You guys ready to give all that up? Surely we don't need it.

    (yes, hippies who are about to press Post Reply and tell me about how much you hate technology and you love the beach/mountains/whatever and that's all you need, I know you exist, but you are the extreme minority)

  23. #23
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    I love the beach/mountains/whatever.

    Skip
    Surly Bikes

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minjin View Post
    This thread is a little disappointing. I was hoping Surly was a little more forward looking and I was hoping to pick up a disc ready Cross Check in the next year or so. It is extremely sad to see the "we have gotten by with X, so X is all we need" argument. We got by just fine for a hundred thousand years without bicycles, cars, computers, electricity, etc. You guys ready to give all that up? Surely we don't need it.
    I dunno, Surly has always been conservative with their bike/frame designs. One of the reasons that their bikes are so popular amongst the bike mechanics of the world is that they are simple, well designed, and just work. Since the 1x1 or Troll could be set up with discs, I don't see much real need for discs on the CC.

    I think Surly's response about the availability of disc options for drop bar bikes is the most telling. Given what I perceive as their design thoughts, I think a disc CC would be much more likely if there were more options in this arena

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Bernet View Post
    I love the beach/mountains/whatever.

    Skip
    Surly Bikes
    You damned dirty ape!

  26. #26
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    Careful man! There's a beverage here!

  27. #27
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    I love the CC because of it's plainness. It's nothing special except for being special to me because it works, is normal, is comfortable, and comes stock with quality bits that can be cheap to replace if they ever break but likely won't any time soon. I like the mushy feel of canti's, and don't mind the squeal. They stop my 6'3" 12.5 stone frame plenty well. I like that the fork and rear triangle are unadulterated by disc mounts so mud guarding and racking is easy. It's just a bike anyway. If one wants a disc cross bike one can go elsewhere and find some very good options.

  28. #28
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    I think a Monster-cross KM would be the closest solution to what the OP desires and at the same time staying with a Surly bike, imo. But then you lose the road geometry too, I guess this thread is all about compromises.

  29. #29
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    Disc brakes, cantis, v-brakes, and road calipers all do a great job of stopping a bike when they’re working and adjusted.

  30. #30
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    also, the moral of RAGBRAI is that families and drunken boobs can have fun on the same route, just maybe at different times of day.

  31. #31
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    It’s all about versatility.

    A lot of mountain bikes now have disc brakes. All but one of mine does.

    Discs on a Cross Check would allow the owner to run 29er disc wheels.
    Discs on a Cross Check would also the owner to run 650b disc wheels.

    Swapping wheelsets with rim brakes can be done, but rims are not a standardized size, which means you still have to adjust your cantis or v-brakes (unless you have a second wheelset with the exact same rims). I’d rather have an extra disc 29er wheelset than another rim brake wheelset that (in my case) would only work on my Cross Check.

    Discs are standardized. You may still have to tweak the pads a bit when swapping wheels, but nothing like the effort of adjusting cantis or v-brakes.

    Again, it's all about versatility.

  32. #32
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    Skip,

    How about a new model altogether?

    Surly could knock one out of the ballpark if they made a traditional looking disc-only cross/tourer with a closer to level top tube (unlike the Vaya), a longer headtube and traditional looking fork (think Vaya meets Jamis Aurora Elite meets Singular Peregrine meets CC). All that and fatties fit fine!!!

    There is interest, see the following thread:

    Crosscheck vs. Salsa Vaya

  33. #33
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    It looks like Hydraulic drop bar disc brakes are in the works, SRAM is developing them now. Since the UCI started allowing them in cyclocross races, there's more of a push to develop good drop bar discs that will work with brifters. Maybe that will be the push Surly needs.

  34. #34
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    If it ain't broke...don't fix it.

    The CC is already one of the most versatile bikes on the market. If it can't do what you want, then you need a different bike. I highly doubt that the CC's racing credentials make the folks at Surly lose sleep at night.
    Jason
    Disclaimer: www.paramountsports.net

  35. #35
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    JAG410,

    I don't want them to REPLACE the current CC, just supplement it with a traditional-looking bike somewhere betweem the Vaya, Peregrine and CC.



    I personally don't see the necessity of roadie/cross hydraulic brakes. Mechanicals are fine for me. I got rid of my Magura hydraulic in lieu of BB7s since I tinker so much.

  36. #36
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    The easiest argument for me is: why not?

    They already have the mounts sitting around for use on Karate Monkey. They already weld on a bunch of other doo dads that most people will never use purely because some people do. They already don't mind the frame being heavy so an extra ounce isn't going to matter. It won't appreciably increase the cost of the frame. It won't get in the way of anyone who doesn't use them. It only increases the options of the end user. It doesn't take anything away.

    I can't see any reason not to. Tradition is a ludicrous reason. Road bikes didn't traditionally have a custom rear dropout distance to make them compatible with multiple hubs. Road bikes didn't traditionally have the space for wide non road tires. Road bikes didn't traditionally have a funky rear dropout system that allows them to easily run a faddish single speed setup.

    They've already made a do-everything bike. How about making a do-everything+1 bike?

  37. #37
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    I vote for a titanium cross check. No changes, just ti.

  38. #38
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    I am waiting on the carbon big dummy!

  39. #39
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    Actually, road bike do traditionally have long horizontal dropouts that can run "faddish" single speed, fixed gear, or geared setups. Only since they late 80s or so did they go to verticals, because they index better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minjin View Post
    I can't see any reason not to. Tradition is a ludicrous reason. Road bikes didn't traditionally have a custom rear dropout distance to make them compatible with multiple hubs. Road bikes didn't traditionally have the space for wide non road tires. Road bikes didn't traditionally have a funky rear dropout system that allows them to easily run a faddish single speed setup.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    Actually, road bike do traditionally have long horizontal dropouts that can run "faddish" single speed, fixed gear, or geared setups. Only since they late 80s or so did they go to verticals, because they index better.
    They also used to have clearance for larger tires, and virtually any old steel frame could easily accomodate different hub widths.

  41. #41
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    um... hey surly, can you guys make a carbon/ti, full suspension, belt driven conundrum? Btw, can you make a deep V version of the large marge?? I hear they are all the rage now.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlyMpls View Post
    um... hey surly, can you guys make a carbon/ti, full suspension, belt driven conundrum? Btw, can you make a deep V version of the large marge?? I hear they are all the rage now.
    Because welding on two small pieces of metal that they already have sitting around, that will add almost no cost, and will only affect people who want them is exactly the same as what you are suggesting.

    I hope you're not on the debate team.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minjin View Post
    Because welding on two small pieces of metal that they already have sitting around, that will add almost no cost, and will only affect people who want them is exactly the same as what you are suggesting.

    I hope you're not on the debate team.
    Because having absolutely no sense of humour is exactly what he was suggesting.

    I hope you're not on the enjoying-life team.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSSasky View Post
    Because having absolutely no sense of humour is exactly what he was suggesting.

    I hope you're not on the enjoying-life team.
    [insert insult here] [insert smilie for plausible deniability here]

    You've obviously read the troll's guide to forum use.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockhound View Post
    Two CrossChecks in 2012 -

    1. Stays exactly as it has been for years.

    2. Keep the geometry, keep the traditional fork, keep the FFF tire clearance...

    ...just lose the cantis and add disc-mounts.

    PUH-LEASE!
    I`m looking for a SSP Disc Crosser - what would happen if I take a 1x1 frameset and add 700c wheels to it? Anyone who has done this? Are 700x42c tires fitting into this frame? What about the geometry - could I use this as a cyclocorsser?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerBergschreck View Post
    I`m looking for a SSP Disc Crosser - what would happen if I take a 1x1 frameset and add 700c wheels to it? Anyone who has done this? Are 700x42c tires fitting into this frame? What about the geometry - could I use this as a cyclocorsser?
    You would probably have issues shouldering the frame since the triangle is pretty small.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerBergschreck View Post
    I`m looking for a SSP Disc Crosser - what would happen if I take a 1x1 frameset and add 700c wheels to it? Anyone who has done this? Are 700x42c tires fitting into this frame? What about the geometry - could I use this as a cyclocorsser?
    I've definitely seen some builds like this, so someone on MTBR has the answers you seek.

    Personally I would look at the Singular Peregrine for those criteria, it's purdy.

  48. #48
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    I think that problem solvers outed surly in this blog post:

    http://problemsolversbike.com/blog/c...When:21:24:09Z



    no canti braze ons.

    no paint (clearcoat over bare metal).

    unless it is a one off...

    g

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregclimbs View Post
    I think that problem solvers outed surly in this blog post:

    http://problemsolversbike.com/blog/c...When:21:24:09Z

    no canti braze ons.

    no paint (clearcoat over bare metal).

    unless it is a one off...

    g
    The slope in that top tube tells me that it's not a CC.

    Besides, it is brazed. Aren't Surly's tig-welded?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockhound View Post
    The slope in that top tube tells me that it's not a CC.
    It's got track-ends too

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