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  1. #1
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    disc-brakes fail at CX Nats 2013

    Bright future for disc brakes fades briefly under a coating of Verona mud
    By Lennard Zinn Published 1/12/13

    VERONA, Wisconsin (VN) — The bright future of disc brakes in cyclocross faded briefly under a patina of watery mud at the USA Cycling Cyclocross National Championships, as early competitors found themselves brakeless after a lap or two of sloppy racing going into the weekend...

    Bright future for disc brakes fades briefly under a coating of Verona mud

  2. #2
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik_A View Post
    Bright future for disc brakes fades briefly under a coating of Verona mud
    By Lennard Zinn Published 1/12/13

    VERONA, Wisconsin (VN) — The bright future of disc brakes in cyclocross faded briefly under a patina of watery mud at the USA Cycling Cyclocross National Championships, as early competitors found themselves brakeless after a lap or two of sloppy racing going into the weekend...

    Bright future for disc brakes fades briefly under a coating of Verona mud
    Pad selection issues. The Avid branded pads can be nearly water soluble. I have used EBC Gold pads for years with no increase in mucky conditions wear when the Avid brand pads can disappear in a single ride.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Pad selection issues. The Avid branded pads can be nearly water soluble. I have used EBC Gold pads for years with no increase in mucky conditions wear when the Avid brand pads can disappear in a single ride.
    Bingo.
    Guys are taking their 2 big buck carbon bikes and 4 sets of big buck carbon wheels and flying half way across the country....spending big bucks.
    But the thought of dropping $15 on a extra set of brake pads....

  4. #4
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    Bingo.
    Guys are taking their 2 big buck carbon bikes and 4 sets of big buck carbon wheels and flying half way across the country....spending big bucks.
    But the thought of dropping $15 on a extra set of brake pads...
    Sounds like they have extra pads. Just that they do not have the experience in varied conditions. I have been running BBDB/BB7s since 2000 in all conditions. Learned the hard way that the Avid branded pads are very inconsistent in the wet/muck. Some will be fine. Another set will last <70 (mtb) miles.
    Never an issue with EBC Gold or the discontinued Galfer pads.

    Even with "good" Avid pads I usually need to tighten the pads in the slop to maintain power. With the EBC and Galfer pads needing to loosen the pads is not uncommon.

    The aftermarket pads last longer in the dry, too.

    I only use the stock Avid pads if I have a new brake set. Replaced as soon as they wear out.

    One of the reasons I will not buy the BB7 "ultimate" brakes. Most of the weight loss is in the pads' aluminum backing plate.
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  5. #5
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    That's it. I'm going with mini-v's until Shimano makes a Dura-Ace disc. There's no way I'm buying a BB7 bike and I have no faith in SRAM getting their first hydraulic brake right.

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    I'm reffering to the Velo Snooze article where the guy is running around Madison looking for a new set of pads.
    And I agree 100 % with you on the pads.
    Also....I am betting a lot of these guys have the calipers set up wrong...running them too tight...so the grit is eating them. And they probably do not have a in line adjuster...which would save them some grief.

  7. #7
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    My wife always tells other women to not skimp on cheap pads.

    But in all seriousness, I’ve experience accelerated wear on stock Avid BB7 pads during a season of MTBing in wet/mucky conditions.
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  8. #8
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    who knew cyclocross riders would be so inept at researching how their equipment will work in muddy conditions?
    doesn't at least one of the team mechanics know mtb's??
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

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    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    That's it. I'm going with mini-v's until Shimano makes a Dura-Ace disc. There's no way I'm buying a BB7 bike and I have no faith in SRAM getting their first hydraulic brake right.
    I have worn out rim brake pads in a single ride, too. And the brakes worked much worse while doing it.

    Will bet racers had rim pad issues, too. Just not as good of a story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by byknuts View Post
    who knew cyclocross riders would be so inept at researching how their equipment will work in muddy conditions?
    doesn't at least one of the team mechanics know mtb's??
    Just because they are team mechanics...doesn't mean they are good mechanics.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I have worn out rim brake pads in a single ride, too. And the brakes worked much worse while doing it.

    .
    Same here.
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    I would love to see a run down of the top 3 finishers for each race and how many ran discs vs. cantis.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I have worn out rim brake pads in a single ride, too. And the brakes worked much worse while doing it.

    Will bet racers had rim pad issues, too. Just not as good of a story.
    Yeah but at least your bike would be a pound lighter. There's no point in "upgrading" to something heavier if it doesn't perform any better than the old stuff.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    Yeah but at least your bike would be a pound lighter. There's no point in "upgrading" to something heavier if it doesn't perform any better than the old stuff.
    You missed this part
    Saturday’s mud added pounds to the bike within a lap but was mostly thrown away from the center of the wheels. So riders with rim brakes carried a lot more mud dangling from their stoppers, those with mini V-brakes had wheels that barely turned due to the tight mud clearance, and those with disc brakes had mostly clean brakes that worked well.
    ...and were lighter.
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  15. #15
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    Ah, true. I've been in mud so bad my wheels wouldn't turn. I had to stop riding and knock some off before I could move again.

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    Very special conditions on Saturday.....water, mud and temps just about freezing make for:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails disc-brakes fail at CX Nats 2013-741114_4095665640535_1108918079_o.jpg  


  17. #17
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    Ya know, once guys get used to figuring out pad compound and set up, discs are a viable option in CX. In the pic that el alcalde just posted, a lot of that mud wouldn't accumulate with a disc-equipped bike.
    That being said, small contact patches and certain course conditions narrow the performance gap between rim and disc brakes in my experience.
    If I had the disposable income, I'd build up a disc equipped CX bike with carbon tubulars. But I'm a middling 3 on a singlespeed, and no amount of technology is going to make me significantly faster.

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  18. #18
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    It's not like this is a new technology that needs to be vetted. Pro mountain bikers have been riding disc brakes on muddy courses for years without issue. Sounds like set up issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    One of the reasons I will not buy the BB7 "ultimate" brakes. Most of the weight loss is in the pads' aluminum backing plate.
    I started the season on a set of BB7's tuned with Ti bolts and washers and having raced nearly every weekend, despite mostly dry race conditions I have replaced the pads 3-times - the most recent was aluminum backed pads from Disco brakes. Last month, I built up a Raleigh RXC Pro disc and opted for Shimano's CX75 disc brakes and was surprised to find that not only were the stock calipers lighter than my 'tuned' BB7s, they were a tad easier to install/setup and are much quieter under heavy braking. Now I just need to locate a source for replacement pads for the 'tune up' race in Cincinatti and Masters Worlds!

  20. #20
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    what kind of setup issue might that be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley View Post
    It's not like this is a new technology that needs to be vetted. Pro mountain bikers have been riding disc brakes on muddy courses for years without issue. Sounds like set up issues.

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    could anyone who has a cnc machine laying around ( :
    and some ingenuity
    make a pre-caliper squeegee thing.
    that would ride on each side of the disc
    and shed debris away from going into the caliper.
    until more durable pads are made available ?

    how do cars , trucks and motorcycles survive
    with all this harsh condition disc brake failure ?

    i was at a downhill race one year.
    and it rained so bad that nite before.
    that pro teams mechanics went to home depot and added Sheetrock screws to tires .

    it allowed riders to navigate over tree roots and slimy course edges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ms6073 View Post
    I started the season on a set of BB7's tuned with Ti bolts and washers and having raced nearly every weekend, despite mostly dry race conditions I have replaced the pads 3-times - the most recent was aluminum backed pads from Disco brakes. Last month, I built up a Raleigh RXC Pro disc and opted for Shimano's CX75 disc brakes and was surprised to find that not only were the stock calipers lighter than my 'tuned' BB7s, they were a tad easier to install/setup and are much quieter under heavy braking. Now I just need to locate a source for replacement pads for the 'tune up' race in Cincinatti and Masters Worlds!
    Two things keep me away from the Shimano.

    1. Requires (two different) tools to adjust the pads

    2. The pad selection.
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  23. #23
    hispanic mechanic
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    Quote Originally Posted by minicoopal View Post
    what kind of setup issue might that be?
    Not who you're quoting, but essentially some people run the pads too close to the rotor. This allows the gunked up pad to rub the rotor when not engaged, jamming more grit into the rotor and accelerating wear.
    Adding an inline barrel adjuster helps as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunna View Post
    could anyone who has a cnc machine laying around ( :
    and some ingenuity
    make a pre-caliper squeegee thing.
    that would ride on each side of the disc
    and shed debris away from going into the caliper.
    until more durable pads are made available ?

    how do cars , trucks and motorcycles survive
    with all this harsh condition disc brake failure ?

    i was at a downhill race one year.
    and it rained so bad that nite before.
    that pro teams mechanics went to home depot and added Sheetrock screws to tires .

    it allowed riders to navigate over tree roots and slimy course edges.
    A "squeegee" might help, it's been used by Kool Stop on rim brake pads for years.
    As to the matter of motor vehicle brakes functioning in harsh conditions, a lot of that comes down to sheer quantity of brake pad material. Bike brakes use tiny little pads. Why? Look around this or and other bike forum. A sizable amount of the threads come down to trying to save grams.
    There's just no way that manufacturers will add more weight than necessary, because it just wouldn't sell.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    1. Requires (two different) tools to adjust the pads
    Not if you use an inline barrel adjuster.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    2. The pad selection.
    I was also concerned after reading the Velonews article, but a short search turned up that in addition to Shimano, pads for the CX75 calipers (aka Deore 515/525) are also available from EBC, Fibrax, Kool Stop (alloy backed), Tektro, and Yokozuna.
    Last edited by ms6073; 01-15-2013 at 01:09 PM.

  25. #25
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    Idea!

    Dealing with mother nature is always tough...
    ...and my hats off to those who race in "all" conditions.

    It makes for another competitor that one has to deal with. Most races like this are won in the shop or on the training field long before the day of the event. The day of is the test of your preparedness first, and your competition second. Ya can't beat them if ya don't finish with everything working well.

    Yes, brake compound is the key, and from years of racing Motos in very muddy and sometimes frozen conditions, we often used solid rotors also. Now this would add slightly more weight to a CX bike, but cut down on pad wear.

    Another good thing in Moto technology we use is a mud dispersing spray on the parts of bike that collects the most mud thus allowing it to slide off. Even "Pam Butter" spray, "Teflon" or Silicone spray carefully applied will help.

    I remember Scott Summers from Team Honda was using and developing a mesh stocking type of material for under his fenders on his Moto that allowed mud to shed and not stick. Thought about trying a nylon stocking or lycra covering over my v-brakes, but the scuppers work so well just never got around to it!

    A savvy tech will fashion something like this, cheap & light. Yes not a do all, but stops the grass filled mud from winding around the moving parts. I thought about putting the rear scupper to the lead side of the rear brake, but it works right where it is at. I do reach down with my glove and grab the load off once in a while, plus you can write fancy words to further psych out your competition...LOL. Of course there are examples of disc covers of disc brakes on Motos that could be fashioned in a smaller size to fit CX bikes.

    I'm sure we will see technology help this situation in the future with new options.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails disc-brakes fail at CX Nats 2013-redline-mud-scrapers-001_900x900.jpg  

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    disc-brakes fail at CX Nats 2013-redline-mud-scrapers-003_900x900.jpg  

    disc-brakes fail at CX Nats 2013-redline-mud-scrapers-004_900x900.jpg  

    disc-brakes fail at CX Nats 2013-redline-mud-scrapers-005_900x900.jpg  


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