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Hole on welding! Should I worry?

13K views 29 replies 14 participants last post by  Paris Galanis 
#1 ·
Hi guys.

I have just discovered a hole on the welding between the top tube and seat tube of my new steel NS Surge. It is not a see through hole but it is there and I am really worried about it.



What do you think?
 
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#2 ·
I wouldn't worry about it from a strength standpoint but I'm a bit surprised they would have let that go. It doesn't really look like a blow out as the bead looks alright.

I wouldn't think you would have to worry about a full weld filled with voids.

curious to see what the others have to say.
 
#4 ·
I have ordered this frame from Chainreactioncycles and have already send them an email and waiting for a response. I don't want to be crazy sensitive but a welding shouldn't have any holes in it and from what I asked and also found on the Internet this is considered as bad craftsmanship and bad craftsmanship should be covered by warranty.

A closer photo.

Red Carmine Coquelicot Paint
 
#17 ·
It won't affect the performance of the frame. If it bothers you the manufacturer will probably swap you out, so it's a question of whether the time/hassle is worth it to you.

-Walt
You see this ^^^ quote? This guy welds for a living and he knows what he's talking about.

There are a boatload of frames out on the trail today that have similar pinholes. Most of them just get a dab of bondo put in before paint so you never see them. Stop freaking out over nothing and go ride your freaking bike. It's a $400 frame that you bought on the internets, not a $4,000 Richard Sachs that you sat on a 4 year wait list to get.
 
#11 ·
Hey;

No worries. The weld is not where cracks start, as the filler is usually far stronger and more molecularly dense than the parent material. Cracks start at the root of the weld, in the parent material. This is a cosmetic issue. A custom builder would prefer not to have such a pinhole in his frame, but he would also be a liar if he said it never happens to him. These are the instances where the craftsman swallows his pride and lofty principles for a wee moment in favor of practicality, and fills the damn thing before the finish goes on.

If the manufacturer declines to replace it, drop in a dab of red paint and ride the hell out of it.
 
#21 ·
That only holds true for a sound weld. Even then it's a blanket statement that doesn't always hold true. For example the high strength steels that bicycle frames are made from are often welded with filler that is weaker than the parent metal. The OP's frame has a giant bug hole in it, which is a great place for a crack to propagate. I've seen plenty of cracked frames that originated from inside the weld zone, most all of them from defects similar to this one. You shouldn't have to buy a Moots to expect a frame that doesn't have weld defects the average rider can blatantly see.
 
#12 ·
Thank you for your reply.

Personally I am not an expert on the subject but I know that I have never seen such a hole in any of my previous frames. And the same applies to my friends ones.

When it comes to this hole it is difficult to say if the hollow part is limited to this area only or if it continues also under the rest of the weld or at least part of it. I really hope that they will honor their warranty policy and offer a replacement frame but I am always preparing for the worst. I don't know however how I should proceed if they don't agree that this is a defect due to poor workmanship and send me a replacement frame.

For now I keep copies of our communication and if they don't send me a new frame I will ask them to officially take responsibility for any accidents (knock on wood as we say back home) that may happen due to a failure on this weld. I will also make sure to update all bicycle magazines and forums that CRC and NS sell bicycles with holes in the welds and they think that it is normal.

Personally this is my back up bicycle so I have all the time in the world to escalate this but I want to believe that a company like CRC will honor their warranty policy.
 
#13 ·
I will also make sure to update all bicycle magazines and forums that CRC and NS sell bicycles with holes in the welds and they think that it is normal.
I mean it's really not that big a deal. You should talk to them about this before thinking of trash talking them all over the internet. It's a cosmetic error, they'll probably take it back but there's no reason to react like that for such a minor issue.
 
#14 ·
I am not trash talking them. The part you quoted is a "what if" scenario.

As I mentioned I hope that they will honor their warranty policy and this is why I have already send them an email and waiting for their response. But in the meantime I am preparing for the worst.

Also if they their response is positive as I hope I will write back in all forums and praise them for their customer service. Up to now I have only positive feedback for CRC and I hope it remains the same.

PS. A hole on a weld is a big deal for me and I don't consider it a cosmetic defect. It is not a scratch. It is a hole. Also it is considered as a defect by welding experts and it is called welding porosity. The thing is that nobody can verify 100% that it won't weaken the weld and I don't want to risk it. When I ordered the frame I expected a defect free one and this is what I want.
 
#18 ·
So is there a price limit after which you are entitled to complain? I ordered the frame online and I expected it to be in good condition. It is not. If I knew it I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. 400 or 40.000 it doesn't matter.

As for Walt's opinion I respect it of course but still I just want what I paid for. A defect free frame.

PS1. I know about companies putting bondo and then painting it over. But this is not the case. It is there and I can see it so I can't ignore it.
PS2. For now I trust that CRC will honor their warranty policy.
 
#20 ·
Ok, you asked if it was ok or not. 4 people whom I know are reputable frame builders all answered the same, it's cosmetic not structural. We all understand you are entitled to not liking the quality of the frame you received. Cool, go through the process of returning it.
This is one of the problems with buying a frame off the internet, that's one reason I like being a framebuilder where the customer has involvement in the frame build process.
Maybe on your next frame, get to know a frame builder and go custom:)
Or build your own.
Happy trails
andy walker
 
#22 ·
Hi again.

I am still waiting for CRC to reply and in the meantime I did some extra research. For example I quote from the following site Defective Welds: Revealing Welding Flaws through Visual Inspection

Minor internal porosity does not significantly affect weld performance but surface porosity is a serious condition.

Almost all fatigue fractures begin at the surface of the metal; anything that interrupts the surface of the metal is a fatigue crack nucleation point. This would include the craters created by surface porosity. Welds with surface porosity should always be replaced.

And this site as well Troubleshooting the MIG Welding Process

Porosity occurs when a gas pocket becomes caught in the weld puddle. This discontinuity can appear at a specific point on the weld or along its full length. It can occur on the surface of the weld or inside it. Regardless of the location, the result is always the same: a weaker weld.

So based on the above I think that I am not (that) crazy.
 
#25 ·
CRC has just replied and they will collect the frame and send me a new one.

The only thing that I can do is praise CRC for the great customer and warranty service provided by them since they replied in only 2 days and offered the expected and desired solution.

I couldn't be more satisfied so the only thing that I can say is that Chain Reaction Cycles | MTB | Road | TRI | Run just gained a loyal customer!
 
#26 ·
Paris

Good to see that you have come to an appropriate conclusion.

However, a word of wisdom. Your issue was and should have been directly with CRC.
And it should have remained an issue between these 2 parties.

For some of us, following the thread is a little OTT, and in the space of hours, used up a lot of energy. Not much learning from this one. We're mostly hands on builders here and not Mass Manufacturers, so keep a cool perspective from what you have discussed.

Go and enjoy your ride as you originally intended to have.

Eric
 
#27 ·
Thank you.

Let me just also say that unless I opened this topic I wouldn't be able to understand the importance of a welding defect like porosity and maybe I would never asked for a replacement.

So such a topic would be good for future reference for someone with a similar issue and of course it is a good example of excellent customer service from CRC side. So it is not a waste of time after all.

As for any loss of energy I apologise and the next Red Bull is on me :).
 
#29 ·
I suppose that this is just part of the business. Yes they will have to pay the shipping costs and replace the frame but this is how you build a good reputation and you can't really put a price to that.

As for the frame I suppose that it will go back to NS since as some people already said it is strange how this defect was not discovered during QC. And at the end of the day the question remains the same. Would you have bought a new frame with a hole in a weld if you knew it? I wouldn't.
 
#30 ·
I am coming back go this thread to inform you about the outcome of the return process.

The CRC customer service was exceptional and they picked up the defective frame and send me back a new one with no extra cost for me. Unfortunately the second frame was defective as well so they offered to send me a third one but when they checked it before sending it they saw that it was defective as well!

So after 3 defective frames in a row they agreed to give me a full refund.

Personally I am really disappointed because I have invested both time and money not only on the frame but in the respective components as well and one month later I back where I started but at least I feel that I made the right decision not to accept a defective frame.
 
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