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  1. #1
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    Canyon Bikes, Dell of MTB revolutionizing Europe's market

    The german firm, using Dell's strategy of selling on-line and removing the distributor is quickly becoming one of the biggest brands here in Europe. I find curious that no US vendors tried something similar.

    Check out their bikes, in the price/quality relation there's probably nothing better in the whole world.

    http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes/

  2. #2
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    Ibex does the same thing, and they're a U.S. vendor.

    The big difference between buying a bike and a computer site unseen is that you need to test the fit of a bike to be sure it is suitable. You also have to decide if the suspension design is what you want- there are no firm specs as on a computer.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    Ibex does the same thing, and they're a U.S. vendor.

    The big difference between buying a bike and a computer site unseen is that you need to test the fit of a bike to be sure it is suitable. You also have to decide if the suspension design is what you want- there are no firm specs as on a computer.
    price gaps are so huge people doesn't really care, but they ask you for your body measures to adjust stems and cranksets, and the suspension design they use is the tried and true 4bar linkage and FSR for the Torque, mags here rave about their frames. Anyway, they started like a small german vendor and now they sell to all Europe. Which other brand can offer you a 160mm enduro bike, full X.0 and XTR, DT Swiss and, Talas 36 for 3000€?

  4. #4
    The Mountain Bike Life
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    Airborne as well here...have not heard much from them lately though. I am a computer guy as well and have NO problem about buying computer stuff online (ncix.com), I even bought my last bike from the guys at Transition without even riding one....but overall people like to kick the tires as it where...

  5. #5
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    What's with all the freaking spam here latey?
    .
    Raspberries, nature's poison ivy bait. (Formerly, 'Stops to eat the raspberries.')

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmojo
    What's with all the freaking spam here latey?
    first I'm from Spain, that company is from Germany... second, 90% of people here is from the US, if you wanted to buy those bikes you would be forced to pay a 30% more plus the shipping so I don't really think Canyon has a bright future in the US. I just thought some people would be interested to know how the market is in Europe.

    If you think it carefully you'll see it's not spam at all.

  7. #7
    OOOOOOOh Gee Are Eee
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    Pricey?

    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    Check out their bikes, in the price/quality relation there's probably nothing better in the whole world.
    I don't know how much bikes sell for over the pond but 3,000 pounds (= $5,671.2) for a 4" travel FSR based bike seems pretty pricey to me, you can get most high end bikes (titus, ellsworth, intense) in the US from a full service shop for that amount. VAT is included in the pricing so that screws things up a bit though.

  8. #8
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    It was 3k Euros- not pounds. That is still almost $4000! Doesn't seem like such a deal to me. Santa Cruz and Specialized have prices not far off from that, let alone Ibex!

  9. #9
    Tear it all out! SuperModerator
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    Actually, that is the symbol for a Euro dollar.

    Last time I looked (2002) a Euro dollar & a US dollar were close in value.

  10. #10
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    Canyon is totally going after Scott. The division of models in the line and the component specs are eerily similar. Scott is the 800lb gorilla in Europe, so it makes perfect sense for Canyon to try to offer similar product, but on a lower-cost direct model, as their differentiator to gain market traction.

  11. #11
    Paper or plastic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    Actually, that is the symbol for a Euro dollar.

    Last time I looked (2002) a Euro dollar & a US dollar were close in value.
    From Wikipedia:
    Eurodollars are deposits denominated in United States dollar at banks outside the United States, and thus are not under the jurisdiction of the Federal Reserve. Consequently, such deposits are subject to much less regulation than similar deposits within the United States, allowing for higher margins.

    Historically, such deposits were held mostly by European banks and financial institutions, and thus became known as "eurodollars". As of April 2006, China holds the largest foreign exchange reserves, much of which are denominated in US currency. Such deposits are now available in many countries worldwide, but they continue to be referred to as "eurodollars" regardless of the location.

    The term eurodollar is commonly confused in the USA with the joint European currency, the Euro.

    As for Canyon prices, they probably include VAT, which runs around 15% of the total price.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    It was 3k Euros- not pounds. That is still almost $4000! Doesn't seem like such a deal to me. Santa Cruz and Specialized have prices not far off from that, let alone Ibex!
    yeah but that's considering the exchange rate, in the US the Canyon Torque Limited would be priced arround 3000$ and take a look at the components,


    Rear Shock Fox DHX Air 5.0
    Fork FOX 36 Talas RC2
    Rear Derailleur SRAM X.0
    Front Derailleur Deore XT E BB Assembly
    Shifters SRAM X.0 Trigger
    Brakes Avid Juicy 7 203/185
    Hubs DT Swiss 340/240
    Cassette Shimano Deore XT 11-34
    Rims DT Swiss 5.1d
    Tires Schwalbe Fat Albert 2.35
    cranks Shimano XTR Hollowtech II
    Chainrings 44/32/22
    Bottom Bracket Shimano XTR
    Stem Syntace Superforce
    Handle bar Syntace Vector Lowrider 2014
    Saddle Selle Italia SLR T1
    Seat post Syntace P6 Carbon

    I tell you that there's nothing with this price/quality relation, at least in Europe.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Canyon is totally going after Scott. The division of models in the line and the component specs are eerily similar. Scott is the 800lb gorilla in Europe, so it makes perfect sense for Canyon to try to offer similar product, but on a lower-cost direct model, as their differentiator to gain market traction.
    I don't think so, Canyon is miles ahead of Scott in terms components and prices, and the frames are very different, Scott has no 4 bars linkages or FSR's.

    I don't understand what 800lb gorilla means but if you're suggesting that they are best sellers or something it's not true, Specialized or Trek sell a lot more here.

  14. #14
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    here in Europe this bike: http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbi...b=29#equipment is cheaper than a custom full XT Heckler with a Pike. It's normal they are taking over the market.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    here in Europe this bike: http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbi...b=29#equipment is cheaper than a custom full XT Heckler with a Pike. It's normal they are taking over the market.
    the canyon bikes that i have seen up close and personal looked awful. a turd with a bunch of nice parts hung on it is still a turd.

    i'd take a chaka or a CMP (other inexpensive german brands) any day over a canyon. blech.

    oh and by the way, "taking over the market"? puhleaze! I knew a lot of riders when i was living and riding europe. no decent rider with any self-respect would be caught dead on a canyon.
    To air is human, to dig is divine.

  16. #16
    Now with 3 more inches!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffer
    a turd with a bunch of nice parts hung on it is still a turd.
    Yup, that sounds like a Dell.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffer
    no decent rider with any self-respect would be caught dead on a canyon.


    do american mags have frame stressing devices? Canyon frames analized were among the strongest, both in the crankset zone and direction, you know how obssesive germans are when it comes to testing?

    I don't want to start a fight here but their bikes are amazing, of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but lbs/ft of pressure don't lie.

    and they look great to me


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    I don't think so, Canyon is miles ahead of Scott in terms components and prices, and the frames are very different, Scott has no 4 bars linkages or FSR's.
    Incorrect. Scott's entire Genius RC and Genuis MC lines are Horst Link designs, which is the defining feature of FSR.

  19. #19
    Lawyer Time! No Comment.
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    No. Instead of relying on magazines, our manufacturers pay firms who specialize in FEA to do it with them. The accuracy and relevancy of the specific biketest.de tests have been rightly exposed as being suspect.
    In the old days, "testing" meant putting some people on the product and sending them off down the trail. It hasn't been that way for a long time. What happened? Everyone broke all that ultralight crap. CNC'd crapsticks, like Tune & Extralight are making now, machined out of 7075 billet, usually taking parts from the soft core. Since then, Product Liability Insurance is the biggest driving force behind every aspect of any American Bike Companies product. Are products "tested"? Yes. And not by bike companies. By testing companies, who specialize in simulating conditions properly. Frames, components, accessories, you name it. It's not unusual for the Liability insurance per part to hit 30% of the wholesale cost of the part. In those cases, the insurance company stands to make the largest amount of profit that product generates. What does this mean? To keep that percentage down, we have to prove that the products are safe. We do this by not touching the stuff ourselves. We're a bike company, not a product testing labratory. You get a specialist to do that if you want it done right. And the insurance companies want it done right. Everyone tests their products. Often, test results are garbage, due to an astronomical number of variables. The German biketest tests are typically performed on a single unit, often rushed, and often entirely inappropriate. Each of these flaws produces garbage data. This has been covered over and over. If it's not obvious how each of these flaws arise & what effect they have on the results, it can be found talking to any manufacturer, & writeups can be found all over the net. Don at Anvil has a quick synopsis on his site, off the top of my head.
    It's late, and I'm tired as hell.

    But first, Horst Lietner was a smart guy. His famed pivot is a nice, inexpensive, effective way of getting the job done. There are many ways to accomplish the job though. The manner in which the licenses to its use were yanked nearly bankrupted a host of smaller, high-end builders. I never thought I'd be glad to see Horst's lovely pivot made obsolete, but the VPP pioneered by Outland and others offers a greater range of performance options, and most importantly, freedom, for both framebuilders & riders. Sadly, we'll continue to watch as the real estate of the bike frame (to put a pivot in) is once again claimed and purchased in small chunks, until it's gone, and everyone will again find themselves pointing lawyers at each other, attempting to drive each other out of their territory. In the end they'll piss away each others paltry earnings on attourneys. Again. What a sad, strange little industry sometimes.
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  20. #20
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    Good job! my Canyon

    I have to say that Canyon makes great bikes. I have a Canyon for 4 months now and it is a perfect bike. It is a hardtail so there is les to do wrong than on a fs.
    And the price is amazing. There are few brands that can compete with this price here in europe. Maybe a Decathlon. But also Canyon has a great service, and fast delivery.

    Here is a pic of my bike. A full race ht. In this setup it cost me 2000 euro.That includes a 1000 euro F80X!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    No. Instead of relying on magazines, our manufacturers pay firms who specialize in FEA to do it with them. The accuracy and relevancy of the specific biketest.de tests have been rightly exposed as being suspect.
    In the old days, "testing" meant putting some people on the product and sending them off down the trail. It hasn't been that way for a long time. What happened? Everyone broke all that ultralight crap. CNC'd crapsticks, like Tune & Extralight are making now, machined out of 7075 billet, usually taking parts from the soft core. Since then, Product Liability Insurance is the biggest driving force behind every aspect of any American Bike Companies product. Are products "tested"? Yes. And not by bike companies. By testing companies, who specialize in simulating conditions properly. Frames, components, accessories, you name it. It's not unusual for the Liability insurance per part to hit 30% of the wholesale cost of the part. In those cases, the insurance company stands to make the largest amount of profit that product generates. What does this mean? To keep that percentage down, we have to prove that the products are safe. We do this by not touching the stuff ourselves. We're a bike company, not a product testing labratory. You get a specialist to do that if you want it done right. And the insurance companies want it done right. Everyone tests their products. Often, test results are garbage, due to an astronomical number of variables. The German biketest tests are typically performed on a single unit, often rushed, and often entirely inappropriate. Each of these flaws produces garbage data. This has been covered over and over. If it's not obvious how each of these flaws arise & what effect they have on the results, it can be found talking to any manufacturer, & writeups can be found all over the net. Don at Anvil has a quick synopsis on his site, off the top of my head.
    Well, seems to me that you want to make me believe that only americans can make good bikes and after all, most american frames are made in the same factories than the german ones. I don't really know about quality standards in the USA, but I do know germans are one of the toughest ones in the world.

    If you all want to believe Canyon makes crappy bikes I won't change that opinion, but you really have no proof, and I don't buy that "no respectable biker would be caught in a Canyon"... I know lots of people who are very happy with their products, and as I said they are quickly becoming a best seller here and that just goes to show how much a distributor or a prestigious frame brand inflate prices.

  22. #22
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    Easy trigger, easy...

    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    Well, seems to me that you want to make me believe that only americans can make good bikes and after all, most american frames are made in the same factories than the german ones. I don't really know about quality standards in the USA, but I do know germans are one of the toughest ones in the world.

    If you all want to believe Canyon makes crappy bikes I won't change that opinion, but you really have no proof, and I don't buy that "no respectable biker would be caught in a Canyon"... I know lots of people who are very happy with their products, and as I said they are quickly becoming a best seller here and that just goes to show how much a distributor or a prestigious frame brand inflate prices.
    First off Mr Flyingpetis was primarily talking about the sad state of American liability issues. Considering that everyone sues for anything and is typically awarded big $$$ for frivolous suits everything in the USA is overbuilt and designed for the lowest common denominator. All he said was that American items were well tested.

    Before coming in totally on the side of the Americans I am going to make a comment based on what I have learned living in Europe the last few years. For the rest of you in the States imagine always having to pay full retail, even through mail order and then tack on an additional 10% in taxes. Thats what everybody does over here - so a bike company like Canyon that can offer a 2000 Euro bike with a F80 fork that would normally cost them 1000 Euro alone and its gonna have a lot of takers. It is great spec for the money which is unusual. You have to realize that practically everything is cheaper to buy in the States.

    I have never seen a Canyon so I wont comment. I currently live in the Czech Republic and have seen lots of small brands over here that could stand shoulder to shoulder with many American ones. The fact is that there are good bikes made all over the world. And just like everywhere there are some good bikes and there are some stinkers out there as well.

    Just trying to throw a little bit of reason in this thread before it turns into an all out flame war...try to see things from both sides once in a while.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    I don't want to start a fight here but their bikes are amazing, of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but lbs/ft of pressure don't lie.
    I have read the tests in the German magazines. As a person who makes a living in the field of materials testing I can tell you this: Those tests are incomplete at best, which means that the lbs/ft of pressure (sic) may not be lying, but they aren't telling the whole story either.

    Ride a Canyon if you like. It is a free planet....mostly.

    btw, as far as where the frame is made i couldnt give a rat's ass. Every bike I own was made in a factory in either Taiwan, China or Japan.
    To air is human, to dig is divine.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDtofer
    You have to realize that practically everything is cheaper to buy in the States.
    Just a quick comment here. That isn't 100% true. Shimano components are bucket-loads cheaper in Germany than the USA -even after taxes and exchange rate. I almost shat myself when i saw the price of XT hollowtech IIs here in USA. SRAM stuff is also very competitively priced in Germany. (check www.bikemailorder.de for prices) Most importantly and most obviously cool stuff like Rohloff hubs are also a lot cheaper in D.

    For whatever reason, Italian Marzocchi products are more expensive in Europe than in the states. Riddle me that one, Batman.
    To air is human, to dig is divine.

  25. #25
    Lawyer Time! No Comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    Well, seems to me that you want to make me believe that only americans can make good bikes and after all, most american frames are made in the same factories than the german ones. I don't really know about quality standards in the USA, but I do know germans are one of the toughest ones in the world.

    If you all want to believe Canyon makes crappy bikes I won't change that opinion, but you really have no proof, and I don't buy that "no respectable biker would be caught in a Canyon"... I know lots of people who are very happy with their products, and as I said they are quickly becoming a best seller here and that just goes to show how much a distributor or a prestigious frame brand inflate prices.
    Well, then it seems wrong. I don't want to make you believe in anything. I want you to think more critically, and resist beleiving in things.

    On the subject of countries making quality bikes. That wasnt the point, and that's why I didn't talk about it. But now I will.

    Making good bikes happens all around the world. Less and less of it is it happening in the states. Once upon a time, the US had access to better materials and processes than just about anyone, and if you wanted a nice frame, it was a given that you were going to buy American. As everyone knows, this is no longer the case. So that point is out. We'll refer to that as Stupid Modern Myth #1. Now, back in reality, what we have is the opposite trend. American bike mfgs are on a rapid decline. There's a small trend to say that since Asia has now caught up quality-wise, and figured out how to build nice frames cheaply for anyone who asks, American frames were garbage all along. This is Stupid Modern Myth #2. Trend indicates people want, above all, cheap product that's "good enough". Well, our society is not set up to produce that. Our society is an expensive one, and within it, if you produce a product, it's going to reflect that in its price. When framebuilders try to be cheap, the quality suffers massively, and the product is crap compared to similar price points comeing from overseas. When they insist upon making a good product, they're priced right straight out of the market. The few manufacturers who do brave these rough waters and insist that they can remain valid as tradesmen in spite of thier fellow countrymens priorities face the reality I mentioned in the above post, which borders on existing solely to keep the insurance companies pockets lined. None of this will change unless our society changes, and one thing Americans are currently not into is change.

    As far as testing standards go, you may suprised to learn this, but countries outside of Germany have access to these standards too. Every manufacturer here seeks out every possible safety & mfg standard they can to comply with, not only to make a better product, but also to lessen the blow of the insurance premiums, so that they can hope to make more than $10 on a $3000 bike. Ansi, Snell, Din, Iso, etc... every standards organization possible is subscribed to. It is required.

    When I said "a nice bike" in my earlier post, I didn't mean everyone elses bikes are garbage. What I meant was instead of deciding you want a nice FS bike, realizing that the horst link is the finest rear end, and then finding that it's owned by a company that didn't invent it, but by way of having an awful lot of money, now owns it and has maneuvered themselves into a position that ultimately leaves you with three bikes to choose from, all in stock sizes, stock colors, all mass produced by the lowest bidder overseas. The quality is just fine. The design is just fine. But if you want something with custom geometry that's going to fit you better, or you want something with a stronger/lighter/stiffer/pinker front triangle/swingarm/strut, or you want something fillet brazed, or you want something made by a guy you'd like to support, you're out of luck. So VPP is, for the moment, the choice that restores freedom to riders and the few builders we have left duking it out.
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

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