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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLd View Post
    Are the 2013 models of the SM3 with the updated foam in stock now at suppliers like BTI?
    No. The 2013 SM3 will not hit N. American soil until late April or early May.

    Jeff K
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    No. The 2013 SM3 will not hit N. American soil until late April or early May.

    Jeff K
    Ergon USA
    Thanks Jeff!

    Can you please post up when the 2013 SM3 L is available, and where?

    Thanks!

    mudhen
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  3. #103
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    They will be available at Brazil?

  4. #104
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    You will need to check with the Brazilian distributor to see if they are stocking the SM3. Their contact is...

    Vanguarda Sports
    Rua Maria Candida, 1372
    Vila Gullherme
    Sao Paulo

    E-Mail: daniel@vanguardasports.com.br
    Homepage: :: VANGUARDA ::

    Jeff K
    Ergon USA

  5. #105
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    Any reviews on the new road saddle?

  6. #106
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    Ergon SM3 saddle

    I won a large black pro sm3 at annadel Xc recently. I have the same saddle on all road and mtb bikes (spesh phenom 143), so not sure I am going to try it or not. It's about the width I think I need and looks great...just not really looking for a new saddle and kinda like having the same one to be conditioned on, instead of having a diff saddle one one bike. Anyone looking for one?
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  7. #107
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    SR3 road saddle reviews, anyone?

  8. #108
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    I'm wondering about an SME3 review, there seems to be few reviews.

  9. #109
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    Does anyone know if the ti rail vs carbon rail saddle have any difference in give or flex.
    Another example question would be is there better vibration in one or the other?
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  10. #110
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    Hey Jeff,
    Could you explain the actual differences in the SM3 (MTB specific) and the SR3 (road specific)? They look almost identical.
    Also, it seems the beef with these saddles is with the perennial area being too firm and/or not relieved enough. What is/was the thought behind that?
    Thanks!
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  11. #111
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    The SM saddles vs the SR saddle....
    - The SR is much firmer than the SM saddles.
    - The nose on the SR is also not as padded as the SM saddles.
    - SR saddle in general is lower profile.
    - Due to the constant state of sitting, the SR saddle has less organic shaping. The SM saddles have more rounded corners due to the on/off the saddle while riding.

    There is not a large relief in our saddles for 1 big reason, these tend to lead to more issue rather than solve issues. Deep reliefs or holes in the saddles create ridges....which tend to push into rider soft tissue. With saddle our research, we found the deepest relief you can make with out causing issues to the rider soft tissue is 6mm deep. Our SMC3 has the deepest relief offering of 6mm. Rest of our saddles have minimal relief. If a rider is having issues in the perennial area with any brand of saddle it comes down to 2 things; saddle height and the rider sitting too far forward on the saddle. We have found through our years of research, going to events, talking with riders, etc......there there are a handful of commonalities being seen...
    - Most riders on a saddle that is too narrow
    - Most riders saddles are too far back, forcing them too the narrow part of saddle.
    - Most riders saddles are too high.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA
    Last edited by ERGON; 05-26-2015 at 05:24 PM. Reason: spelling error

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    There is not a large relief in our saddles for 1 big reason, these tend to lead to more issue rather than solve issues. Deep reliefs or holes in the saddles create ridges....which tend to push into rider soft tissue. With saddle our research, we found the deepest relief you can make with out causing issues to the rider soft tissue is 6mm deep. Our SMC3 has the deepest relief offering of 6mm. Rest of our saddles have minimal relief. If a rider is having issues in the perennial area with any brand of saddle it comes down to 2 things; saddle height and the rider sitting too far forward on the saddle. We have found through our years of research, going to events, talking with riders, etc......there there are a handful of commonalities being seen...
    - Most riders on a saddle that is too narrow
    - Most riders saddles are too far back.
    - Most riers saddles are too high.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA
    Informative response, Jeff...thanks. Disregard the inquiry on Roadbike R. So, it looks like I could use an SM saddle on my roadie and just switch out.

    Some have said that unlike some saddles, the preferred positioning is slightly nose-down. Is that how the designers envisioned it?
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  13. #113
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    There are handful of Ergon saddle now. Here it is broken down...
    SMR3: MTB race saddle
    SMC3: MTB comfort saddle
    SME3: Enduro/gravity/all-mtn saddle
    SR3: Road
    SRX3: CX

    Nose down varies from rider to rider. Many of our racers, me included, are about 1 to 2 degrees nose down. This rocks the sitbones forward which translates to about 1-2 extra watts per pedal stroke. This has been measured and proven via an SRM. Of course, this position isn't for everyone. Also, no, this wasn't figured into the design of the saddle. The main key points which all our saddles have in common...
    1. Thin shell
    2. sit bone pockets formed into the shell. 3 widths available: S, M, L
    4. floating rail system which pushes away trail/road feedback.
    5. Ride specific tuning. Each saddle has been designed for its intended riding application.

    As we tell all consumers/athletes, saddles are tricky. Find what works for you....adjust how you need it. Everyone is different. We'd love to have every rider on an Ergon saddle. We know that isn't 100% possible, but are willing to go to great lengths with design and testing to make the saddle decision that much easier.

    Jeff K
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    There are handful of Ergon saddle now. Here it is broken down...
    SMR3: MTB race saddle
    SMC3: MTB comfort saddle
    SME3: Enduro/gravity/all-mtn saddle
    SR3: Road
    SRX3: CX
    Jeff, one last question (I promise)...where would the older SM3 Pro Carbon model fit in the new line-up?
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  15. #115
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    The old SM3 would be closest to the new SMR3. The SMR3 has upgrades; better foam (same used in high-end running shoes) and a shell where the thigh/wing area has a bit more flex.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    There are handful of Ergon saddle now. Here it is broken down...
    SMR3: MTB race saddle
    SMC3: MTB comfort saddle
    SME3: Enduro/gravity/all-mtn saddle
    SR3: Road
    SRX3: CX
    Hi Jeff,
    I was wondering what the difference between the Fiberglass Composite shell and Carbon Fiber Composite. Is one going to have more flex/give than the other? I currently have a SM3-S Pro and so far have enjoyed the saddle. I have noticed on longer rides 12hrs and up on the endurance end sit bone points tend to get a little sore. I am looking to buy another product which would would be used for long distance gravel touring and your fit guide keeps putting me to the new srx3-pro. Do you have any suggestions?
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  17. #117
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    The Fiberglass composite is an Ergon made material that we also use use to make our barends, found on such models as the GP3 and GS3. In easy to understand terms, it is a highly impact resistant plastic. Carbon fiber is exactly what it says. Same material used in bike frames, handlebars, etc.

    Only differences will be weight and vibration damping. The carbon fiber models are the lightest and offer the most vibration resistance.

    If you are on the SM3-S Pro now, but want softer, look at the SMC3 Pro. This is new comfort mtb saddle for 2015...
    SMC3 Pro
    This will offer softer foam, a deeper relief channel, TiNox rails, and a carbon shell.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    If you are on the SM3-S Pro now, but want softer, look at the SMC3 Pro. This is new comfort mtb saddle for 2015...
    What would the diffeernce be between the SMC3 pro and the SMR3 pro?

    and thanks for the quick responses also.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logover View Post
    What would the diffeernce be between the SMC3 pro and the SMR3 pro?
    The SMR3 and SMC3 replace the former SM3.

    The SMR3 is a full blown mtb race saddle. Firm, lightweight, and similar to the old SM3, but with new foam (see below)

    The SMC3 is same shape as SMR3, but has thicker/deeper foam. It's more of the "every day riders" saddle. It also has a 6mm deep relief channel.

    All our Pro level saddles offer carbon shells and TiNox rails.

    So, when you say you like the SM3 shape, but want a bit more forgiveness in the later hours of a ride, I point you to the SMC3....which has the SM3 shape, but softer foam.

    Note, all our saddle now utilize a new foam. We are the only company in the industry using this foam. The foam is the same that is found in high end running shoes by brands like Adidas. It is designed to never break down, hold its form, and offer more shock absorption.

    Jeff K
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    The SMR3 and SMC3 replace the former SM3.

    The SMR3 is a full blown mtb race saddle. Firm, lightweight, and similar to the old SM3, but with new foam (see below)

    The SMC3 is same shape as SMR3, but has thicker/deeper foam. It's more of the "every day riders" saddle. It also has a 6mm deep relief channel.

    All our Pro level saddles offer carbon shells and TiNox rails.

    So, when you say you like the SM3 shape, but want a bit more forgiveness in the later hours of a ride, I point you to the SMC3....which has the SM3 shape, but softer foam.
    Excellent, sorry little slow sometimes. SMC3-Pro small on order. thanks!
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  21. #121
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    Dear Jeff

    Good to see your support and respnses. As i about to buy a new saddle (at the moment 130mm Selle Superflow) i need some advice.
    My seat bones are 113mm and online wizard advised M ad that seems to be correct as my current one is to narrow, but my question is about versions.
    I'm gonna to use it for all day AM rides and need to forget about my but and start to admire views. Can you give some more info about E version? What are the dofferences from C version? More cushion, better for long trips, can be used without padded shorts?

    @ guestion for all.

    Was considering also WTB Pure or Selle Max flite Gel flow SLR anyone can compare to Ergon?

  22. #122
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    The SMC3 vs the SME3....

    The SMC3, as mentioned above, is a comfort mtb saddle. It's designed for all day general mountain bike riding. Think XC style riding with your buddies on your local trails. Your not a racer, you just want to have fun, be comfy. Yes, the SMC3 will have the thickest foam out of all our saddles.

    The SME3 is designed around the rigors of more gravity based riding, specifically enduro'ish riding where you are seated to climb as much as ride long descents. The only similarities the SME3 to the SMC3 will have is the pockets in the saddle shell and the sizing. So, if you measure out to a M saddle, you are a M is all the Ergon saddles. The SME3 over the SMC3 will be shorter in the nose and also have a more organic rounded shape (no hard edges/angles). The shorter nose and rounded off shape helps to deflect the legs, clothing, etc when descending for a long time. The SME3 is most at home on any dropper post

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

  23. #123
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    Jeff

    Thanks a lot for info.
    Taking above in account, my feelings firstly went to C but later on i got confused so let me clarify more my usage and needs.

    AM style with enduro elements
    Learning how to pass drops and tech sections
    Still need to climb many times
    Rather on-seat position
    Long daily distances
    Used with RS dropper post

    Would You recommend to stick with C??

  24. #124
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    Would suggest the SME3 based on your usage and needs listed above. The SME3 is great mix of seated comfort and out of the way for DH speed. It's there when you need it.

    I would only point you toward the SMC3 if your need of "Long Daily Distances" is measured over the 50 mile mark.

    Using myself as an example, I use the SME3 when visiting bike parks, big mountain technical rides here in Colorado, on my 140mm and 160mm trail bikes. A few folks local to me on the SMC3 are core male/female mtbers. Riding their 100mm full-suspension bikes for 2 hours at a time, maybe 3-4 times a week after work.

    Jeff K
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  25. #125
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    Now i see that provided not enough info.

    1. Hard to admi but i ride regurally 2-3 times a week, but when i manage to do so than i have 5-7hours of freedom than i do maybe 30-40 miles max.
    2. No bikeparks around, rather easy trails.
    3. Real opportuniry to Enduro are dedicated trips ~ 30 days a year.
    4. My bike is 140mm AM Banshee Prime.
    5. The real Enduro i do is practising body balance, 3-4 ft drops and similar - still learning.

    Am i still candidate for E??

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    The SMR3 and SMC3 replace the former SM3.

    The SMR3 is a full blown mtb race saddle. Firm, lightweight, and similar to the old SM3, but with new foam (see below)

    The SMC3 is same shape as SMR3, but has thicker/deeper foam. It's more of the "every day riders" saddle. It also has a 6mm deep relief channel.

    All our Pro level saddles offer carbon shells and TiNox rails.

    So, when you say you like the SM3 shape, but want a bit more forgiveness in the later hours of a ride, I point you to the SMC3....which has the SM3 shape, but softer foam.

    Note, all our saddle now utilize a new foam. We are the only company in the industry using this foam. The foam is the same that is found in high end running shoes by brands like Adidas. It is designed to never break down, hold its form, and offer more shock absorption.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA
    Just wanted to follow up with my purchase and thank Jeff.
    The SMC3 was just what I was looking for. Used it on a 375 mile 2.5 day trip and it had just the right amount of additional padding I was looking for over the SM3. SM3 is still good for me for daily use but will be using the SMC3 for longer events for sure. Thank you
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  27. #127
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    I'm trying to figure out a couple of things. Hoping Jeff, or anyone else here, can help out.

    As a reference: Currently on a Spec. Ruby 155mm. It works, but I'm not in love with it. A bit too long making it catch on shorts with some frequency. The Spec level 1 padding is okay, but a bit firm.
    Conversely, the Spec level 3 padding of the Myth is too soft and results in bad pressure spots on the sensitive bits, which is why it was a fail (that and the uber wide love channel created horrible ridges of pressure).

    I can't really figure out what is meant with the Ergon padding descriptions. Though the SMC3 is billed as being more comfortable for long rides, my experience is that more padding is bad after a certain point. What I do like the sound of on that saddle, is the deeper love channel.
    The SME3 sounds like an ideal saddle for what I do. Pedal uphill on gravel roads for 1 hr or so, then rock back down on technical, rocky, rooty, jumpy trails. My biggest question with this saddle is: Where is the SIZE LARGE??? If I end up on a narrow saddle, it's nothing but soft tissue all day long.

    Finally, what are the women Ergon athletes riding on?
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  28. #128
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    I've tried every saddle that Ergon makes and I just put a new SMR-3 S on my Colnago road bike. Best saddle ever! More comfortable to me then even the SMC. Two 3-hour rides so far on it and never even thought about it until I got off and said "I never thought about my new saddle once!"

  29. #129
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    This description souns like lot of XC on E model especiallythose long uphills.
    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post

    The SME3 sounds like an ideal saddle for what I do. Pedal uphill on gravel roads for 1 hr or so, then rock back down on technical, rocky, rooty, jumpy trails. ?

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    I can't really figure out what is meant with the Ergon padding descriptions.
    We do not group our saddles by "padding descriptions". Our saddles are named and designed based on the intended usage. Example....

    SMR3: MTB race saddle, xc, marathon, stage racing
    SMC3: MTB comfort saddle, general everyday mtbing, non-racing saddle
    SME3: Enduro/gravity/all-mtn saddle
    SR3: Road/Road racing
    SRX3: CX / adventure road / gravel

    The foam we use in our saddles in used by no other company in the bike industry. The next industry who uses this foam is the high end running shoe industry. This foam is designed to hold it's shape and density over time and not break down. It can also handle shock and impact better over the typically used saddle foam. In general, the foam in all our saddles is super thin. This new foam allows for this.....we get more with less. Only the SMC3 has thicker foam, but when compared to other saddles on the market it is still thin.

    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    My biggest question with this saddle is: Where is the SIZE LARGE???
    The SME3 and SRX3 are not offered in size L as the saddle becomes too wide for the intended use. Through our testing, L sizes in these 2 models caused the saddle to get in the way during the various movements of on/off forward/behind the saddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    Finally, what are the women Ergon athletes riding on?
    Our endurance female riders are on the SMR3. Our female gravity riders are on the SME3.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

  31. #131
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    Jeff, when did you start using the new foam?

  32. #132
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    In the 2014 and 2015 saddles.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

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    Hi Jeff, wanted to hear more about the difference between old and new line of your saddles. Is the amount and composition of new foam the only difference? Bought recently SM3 model in saleout and am preponderantly satisfied but on longer distances near the end I start to feel sore of sit bones. I find on touch the padding rather tough. Doesn't that in clash with sit comfort, would switching to SMC3 make considerable difference on long trips?
    About the right size choice - on Ergon's size calculator I've been recommended L size, though having sit bones span only 12cm. Ergon generally suggests M for this span. Could my saddle size be too wide and would the M improve anything if I don't have problem with fretting of the edges to thighs?

  34. #134
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    As mentioned above, the SM3 is 2 saddles now; the SMR3 and SMC3.

    The SMR3 is a pure mtb racing saddle. Firm. Race inspired. Similar to the old SM3

    The SMC3 is the same shaping as the SMR3. Only difference here is the SMC3 uses the same foam as the SMR3, but it is much thicker. The SMC3 also has a deeper relief channel. If you desire softer and comfort, look at the SMC3.

    As for sizing, if you measure 12cm, you belong on the Medium size saddle. Medium is the size you would run in ALL the Ergon saddle models.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

  35. #135
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    I bought an SMC3 L which will be delivered tomorrow. I am hoping for a little more support for my sit bones than my current Chromag Trailmaster offers. I'm a 6' 205lb rider and I'm hoping the 155mm width will work better for me than the current 140mm I'm on.

    Quick question for you Jeff K, I bought the 'base' SMC3 saddle, and it's my understanding that only differences between the 3 levels of saddles is the rail and shell materials? The foam is the same material, and is formed with the same tools & techniques too?

    Here's to hoping my prostatitis settles down!

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
    Quick question for you Jeff K, I bought the 'base' SMC3 saddle, and it's my understanding that only differences between the 3 levels of saddles is the rail and shell materials? The foam is the same material, and is formed with the same tools & techniques too?
    Yes, that is correct.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

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    Thanks Jeff, I know the difference between SMC3 and SME3, what I was asking was diff between SM3 and SMC3 ie. old and new saddle, in short how much is better SMC3 (or SM3 worse). Can somebody riding both saddles compare more thoroughly?

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    Hope someone, Jeff especially, is still dipping in on this thread. I'm looking at which Ergon saddle to go with. Specifically I'm going to put it on my Fatbike, with the Arrowhead 135 in mind. My best fitting saddles have been Fizik Arione (road) and Brooks B17N (touring/commuting), so I don't seem to need a lot of cushion. The WTB Speed V didn't cut it on the Fatbike or MTB last year. Just could never get comfortable on it. The reading I've done on the Ergon saddles tilt me toward the SME3. Anyone want to chime in?

  39. #139
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    see below

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by tukan View Post
    Thanks Jeff, I know the difference between SMC3 and SME3, what I was asking was diff between SM3 and SMC3 ie. old and new saddle, in short how much is better SMC3 (or SM3 worse). Can somebody riding both saddles compare more thoroughly?
    Huge differences between the SM3 and SMC3.

    The current SMR3 will be closer to the SM3; firm, flat, performance oriented.

    The SMC3 uses the same shape as the SMR3, but the foam is much thicker, the relief channel is deeper, and saddle is more tuned towards comfort more than performance.

    SMR3 = perfomance mtb race saddle
    SMC3 = comfort mtb saddle

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by revcp View Post
    Hope someone, Jeff especially, is still dipping in on this thread. I'm looking at which Ergon saddle to go with. Specifically I'm going to put it on my Fatbike, with the Arrowhead 135 in mind. My best fitting saddles have been Fizik Arione (road) and Brooks B17N (touring/commuting), so I don't seem to need a lot of cushion. The WTB Speed V didn't cut it on the Fatbike or MTB last year. Just could never get comfortable on it. The reading I've done on the Ergon saddles tilt me toward the SME3. Anyone want to chime in?
    First, chose your saddle based on intended use....
    SMC3: Comfort MTB
    SMR3: MTB Race / Performance
    SME3: All-mountain / Enduro
    SR3: Road / Road Racing
    SRX3: CX / Dirt Road / Gravel

    Second, chose the correct size. Either S, M, or L....
    ERGON BIKE ERGONOMICS

    If you seek a firm saddle to be planted on for endurance, look at the SMR3. I don't point you towards the SMC3, as you specifically mention you don't need a lot of cushion. The SME3 is also a softer saddle and not as long. Not ideal if you are looking for a saddle with multiple sitting areas. ie: sitting from back to nose of saddle.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    First, chose your saddle based on intended use....
    SMC3: Comfort MTB
    SMR3: MTB Race / Performance
    SME3: All-mountain / Enduro
    SR3: Road / Road Racing
    SRX3: CX / Dirt Road / Gravel

    Second, chose the correct size. Either S, M, or L....
    ERGON BIKE ERGONOMICS

    If you seek a firm saddle to be planted on for endurance, look at the SMR3. I don't point you towards the SMC3, as you specifically mention you don't need a lot of cushion. The SME3 is also a softer saddle and not as long. Not ideal if you are looking for a saddle with multiple sitting areas. ie: sitting from back to nose of saddle.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA
    Thanks, Jeff. Appreciate it.

    Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

  43. #143
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    Hey Jeff, any guess on when the new SMC4 saddles will be available for purchase? Not pinning you down on an exact day, just an educated guess is fine.

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    What is the exact difference between the SMR3 Pro and the SR3 Pro, other than one being designated "mountain" and the other "road?"

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
    Hey Jeff, any guess on when the new SMC4 saddles will be available for purchase?
    Right now, estimated delivery to market is mid-Feb 2016. Really good chance it could be a few weeks earlier.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

  46. #146
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    SMR3 Pro is a mid-level mtb racing saddle.
    SR3 Pro is a mid level road racing/riding saddle.
    Both saddles have carbon shells and TiNox rails.
    Intended usage, which alters the design of each saddle slightly, are the only changes. The most noticable difference is the SMR3 will have a more foam and a larger saddle nose. The SR3 is a bit more sleek.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGON View Post
    SMR3 Pro is a mid-level mtb racing saddle.
    SR3 Pro is a mid level road racing/riding saddle.
    Both saddles have carbon shells and TiNox rails.
    Intended usage, which alters the design of each saddle slightly, are the only changes. The most noticable difference is the SMR3 will have a more foam and a larger saddle nose. The SR3 is a bit more sleek.

    Jeff K
    Ergon Bike USA
    Thank you, Jeff! Much appreciated! I have ridden with road saddles for many, many dirt miles in the past. I am once again on a road saddle on my MTB-your SR3 Pro! Once I got I positioned correctly it has been brilliant!

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    Hope you're still checking in here, Jeff. Just wanted to let you and the posters here know how completely satisfied I've been with my SMR3 Comp. I put it on my Fat Bike and it has performed wonderfully on trails and now that the snow is here it's just as good. Best compliment for any saddle is if you don't think about it when you're riding. The only times I've thought about it are when I've had to drop off the back of the saddle for an unanticipated last minute maneuver, and it's been very easy to get off and back on. And for me it's just the right amount of padding, which is to say very little. Once spring comes along and the Fat Bike is hung in the garage I'll put the saddle on my Troll. Kudos on a great product!

  49. #149
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    I have bought several SMR3's. 2 comps and 2 pro carbon. They are great. Question is about the carbon rails. Their profile seems to limit them to seat posts that clamp from top and bottom only, not from the sides. Is this true, or am I missing something?
    Work to Ride - Ride to Work
    There's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing...

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeus2112 View Post
    I have bought several SMR3's. 2 comps and 2 pro carbon. They are great. Question is about the carbon rails. Their profile seems to limit them to seat posts that clamp from top and bottom only, not from the sides. Is this true, or am I missing something?
    Yes, seatposts that clamp from the sides are typically limited to only working with round saddle rails. Most seatposts that clamp from the top and bottom are compatible with both oval and round saddle rails. Thompson and Reverbs are examples of seatposts that clamp from the top and bottom and are compatible with all types of saddles (except I-beam, of course...)
    Fall in Fruita/GJ. F' yeah! Lunch Loops are riding sweet and so is everything else.

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