"I had my signal on. You were supposed to stop for me."
You know I can forgive misunderstanding the right of way rules. I bet this lady hasn't seen a driver's manual in 25 years, and the specifics of right of way laws can be somewhat complicated I guess.
What I can't forgive is how this lady just says "I had my signal on" as if that absolves her of any responsibility for a potential accident. You're responsible for your vehicle, period. Even if the other party isn't obeying the law, it's STILL YOUR JOB to do your utmost to avoid contact. Does she run down pedestrians crossing when the sign says "don't walk" because they're supposed to stop and wait for her too? What about another car running a red light in front of her? Just hit it, the car shouldn't have been there anyways?
If you possess a valid (unexpired) driver’s license, it should be your duty to understand the rules of the road. Pisses me off every time some dillhard mcpenisectomy cuts in front of me without using a turnsignal, whether in the car or on the bike. Car manufacturers didn’t suddenly stop putting turn signal indicator levers in cars one day, they’re still there. If people are too goddamn lazy to use a turnsignal, they suck; poach them—lynch them—get them the mother@*#&^$&*#^%&* crap off the road. Safety first; you have the rest of your life to play.
QUOTE from MTBR.COM: You have given Brewtality too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.
*THIS*! (Forum won't let me pos-rep you for this, but you deserve it)
Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker
This woman has a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules of the road, and would not have had as civil a conversation if she'd done that to me or mine. I don't suffer fools gladly, rarely do so AT ALL. I'm not a cycling ambassador, either, I'm a rider who wants to keep riding until I'm to feeble to walk -- and jackholes like this need to realize they own a CAR, not the road.
A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....
Hard for her to claim a cyclist has no rights on the street with a cycle lane there. Some drivers do. She mistakes that signaling a lane change in front of a vehicle requires that the trailing driver accommodate (not speed up to block) the lane change, still applies when alongside a vehicle. Unfortunately, drivers think they are in front once you are no longer alongside the cab or front seat. Like you are at pedestrian speeds. A lane change requires the mirror and blind spot check, too which would have shown she had a cyclist right there. My brother laid his bike down under a car that hooked him, then stopped 1/4 into the turn as she decided how she was going to park. She did not realize until his hands pulling him up from under thumped her trunk lid. "But I passed you!", she said.
"Not quite. It took you over a block and you were still not quite by when you cut me off."
Out of sight out of mind - assuming they are using one.
Watch for slowing or wiggling in the lane: these are possible precursors for a right hook. It lets you brake a bit sooner, just in case. Costs you less than a second or two. Nothing when compared to serious bodily damage.
Not questioning that the driver here screwed up (and the story is no surprise either), but part of the blogger`s argument doesn`t sound right to me.
"And the appropriate maneuver is to first merge into the bike lane before turning right."
Really? Since he sounds pretty sure about that, he`s likely correct for DC (or is he in MD?), but it sure doesn`t sound right to me. I don`t THINK cars are supposed to use bike lanes as right turn lanes in my state, but I sure hope they aren`t, and I really hate to see that when it does happen. My belief is that motor vehicles don`t belong in bike lanes period, and if drivers get in the habit of using them as right turn lanes when turning behind a cyclist, the inevitable next step is that they`ll start using them as right turn lanes when the "going straight" lane is full of cars, and will be sideswiping bikes like there`s a bounty on them in order to get around the backed up traffic and make their right turns. Anybody here know for sure whether or not that "merge into the bike lane" rule applies in your own state/province? Laws aside, does my opinion make sense, or am I delusional?
That`s so crazy it almost sounds like fun.
Originally Posted by BrianMc
I had the same reaction when I first read that somewhere else, and I honestly don't know how it's worded here, but i think it's true and really is meant to keep drivers from blithely cutting off bikes when turning. Meaning hey - you have to merge, not just plow through. In practice I don't know if any drivers actually merge in and drive along in the bike lane before turning (maybe someone with more bike lanes will report), but hopefully they at least acknowledge there are vehicles there that they have to accommodate.
Originally Posted by rodar y rodar
When I was driving truck, that was what was taught (close to 20 years ago), but most of the rules that applied to trucks (that are SUPPOSED to apply all vehicles) are rarely followed by passenger cars. Note that some states are more explicit on the subject than others.
The ridiculousness of cycling clothes increase exponentially in relation to the distance from your bicycle.
The bike lane issue is interesting to me as a driver and a cyclist. It makes sense to safely move over just before the turn to prevent a 30 mph cyclist from suddenly being to your immediate right as you make the turn. Present a bumper in a timely (safe) manner where your brakes lights and turn signal are making it clear what you are doing and the cyclist does not get squeezed.
Rodar's extrapolation of drivers using the bike lane indiscriminately is valid. People aren't permitted to drive the shoulder either, but in a traffic tie-up too many do. Very stiff as in license suspension penalties for using it in an unsafe or illegal manner would stop most infractions, but amoral and sociopathic people exist.
According to the Google Bar Assn...
The laws for this are very inconsistent across the US. I looked through the online version of the drivers handbook for my state (NV) and couldn`t find anywhere that specifically mentioned "right turns" in combination with "bike lanes", but it seems by default that MVs are prohibitted from using bike lanes to turn:
• Motorists may not stop, park or drive on a designated bicycle path or lane unless they are
entering or leaving an alley or driveway, performing official duties, directed by a police officer or
an emergency situation exists.
The drivers handbook from my official "Other State" (California) says that drivers MUST use a bike lane for right turns:
"When you are making a right turn and are within 200 feet of the corner or other driveway entrance, you must enter the bicycle lane only after ensuring there is no bicycle traffic, and then make the turn. Do not drive in the bicycle lane at any other time."
So, remember if you ever drive in CA that you aren`t allowed to ever make a right turn from any road that doesn`t have a bike lane
I also found an interresting article about the idea here:
CABO » Bike Lanes and Motorist Right Turns
Including this bit that implies Oregon specifically prohibits MVs from using marked bike lanes as a right turn lane:
"A few years ago, Oregon was dealing with conflicting laws – one that required motorists to make right turns from the edge of the roadway, and yet another required them to stay out of bike lanes. The police proposed a California-style law which would require motorists to merge into the bike lane before turning. That did not gain traction, and so the net result in Oregon is that motorists are required to turn across bike lanes when turning right."
I checked the VT driver manual, which has zero mention of bike lanes, but offers the following:
At the approach to a right turn the vehicle should be about three feet from the right
side of the road. Do not swing your vehicle to the left before turning right. Signal 3 to 5
seconds in advance to warn others of your intention to turn. Then as you gradually
slow down, check the mirror to see that the driver of the vehicle behind you has
understood your signal. Search the intersection left, front, and right before starting to
make your turn.
Always remain alert for the presence of bicyclists or pedestrians on the right side of
the road as you make your turn. You must yield to any pedestrian or bicyclist.
Make your turn close to the right side of your lane. After completing your turn,
check your rearview mirror and center your vehicle in the lane.
Well ahead of the turn, look for any following vehicles and move over to the right
side of your lane.
Signal 3 to 5 seconds before turn and begin slowing down.
Search the intersection left, front, and right before starting your turn.
Keep close to right while turning. After completing turn, check mirror, and center vehicle in your lane.
So I guess they have to yield to bicycles, but stay to the right of their lane.
I had a similarly entitled woman cut me off the other day this week. Windows down, no bike lane but I was going within 5 mph of the speed limit in a 25mph zone. I was about 2/3 through the intersection in the right wheel track of the lane(typical position, wide lanes) when the blazer appeared and turned straight through my path quickly. I also braked like the OP within 6 inches and yelled "Watchit!" She skid hit the brakes to a stop and proceeded to yell at me about how I was the one who was supposed to watch it. Normally I would have stopped and debated it but the tone of her tirade indicated such resistance to be futile so I saluted impolitely and left. Regrettably that bike didn't have the vid camera for plate recording but those people are victims of habit so she will reappear...
Maryland plate drivers seem to be the most notoriously anti biker around here(though the locals seem to do their share), without any remorse. My job has me do traveling work in various states and the times I have talked to customers in MD and DC the impressions are astounding. One was a fitness nut who did triathlons, owned 300 sq ft of gym equipment inside a fraction of her basement(big) but remarked how annoying it is to see any kind of biker on the road. "They should just stick to the sidewalks". When I politely discussed the matter she gave me the impression of disbelief/deer in headlights.
Of course it is an increasingly worrisome realization that there are a significant population of unlicensed/suspended drivers who drive anyway. One of my coworkers continued to drive on a 2 yr suspension AND got pulled over twice. Somehow he was let off both times with "burnt turn signal" tickets instead, by what was normally the strictest of PD departments. A scary prospect indeed.
'93 Giant Sedona ATX custom
'93 Giant Sedona AtX aero-edition
'73 Schwinn Suburban
'95 Fuji Suncrest
You pull into the clear bike lane, prior to a right turn, to keep a bike from coming up alongside of you and being hit by your right turn. In this case it is the car that "takes the lane" to protect cyclists.
Originally Posted by rodar y rodar
That s**t happens to me all the time (although it's left hand turns here; we drive on the left). I've lost count how many times I've been told bikes have to give way to drivers by the hysterical undereducated driving masses. Same happens when they blow a stop sign directly in front of me
Another common one here is horning or being told you have to keep left when in the right turn lane to turn right at lights
"Bicycles have to ride on the sidewalk - it's the law!"
"I don't have to give way to you - you don't pay road tax!"
"Cycle on the road; you deserve to die"
We have no cycle lanes here but big wide bus lanes which double up as bike lanes and it works pretty well as long as you can keep up a steady 35~40Kmph. I even had one of the Transport Authorities rent a cops try and give me a $130 ticket as I wasn't a bus - luckily a real cop showed up and sent him on his way.
The arrogance and ignorance, including some of the enforcers, is astounding and depressing.
Mind you as cycling is becoming more and more popular I have noticed an increasing number of idiot cyclists these days - blowing red lights and riding the wrong way down the road seems to be the most popular method of suicide
here in Indianapolis, it varies from road to road, and the bike lane markings make it pretty clear what is going on (IMO). In occasions where the auto right turn lane merges into and shares the bike lane, there are signs indicating the necessity to merge and the dedicated bike lane goes away (for a time) and is replaced with a sharrow.
there is one really major freeway interchange I use frequently while driving where two right turn lanes exist to the right of the bike lane, and traffic wishing to merge into those lanes must cross the bike lane. In this case, the bike lane is painted green the entire distance across the freeway interchange, and the lane markings at the edges of the bike lane are dashed in merging zones.
There is some sense to that, BUT either way a driver has to check the bike lane and hopefully moves into or through it only when it`s clear. In either case, a driver who`s on the ball will not run over a cyclist, and in either case, a driver not paying attention potentially gives some cyclist the squeeze. The only difference I see is that merging into the bike lane ahead of time lets a driver concentrate on one thing at a time- first the bike lane, then the turn. Something to be said for that, I guess.
Originally Posted by LWright
Small word, eh?
Originally Posted by SimpleJon
Ugh! Nasty situation! The only one like that around me is way down on the other end of town, at least 20 miles away in a direction I rarely ride. Sure glad I only have to ride through it a few times per year, and usually early on a weekend morning at that.
Originally Posted by NateHawk
So, how does yours work? Both the merge lanes cut through the bike lane in the same place, or first one, then the other? What does the green painted bike lane signify? I`ve never seen one in any color other than white. Come to think of it, Ive never seen ANY lane markings that weren`t either white or yellow- green would confuse me.
most of our roads have that type of junction - all of the urban roads are a minimum of 2 normally 3 lanes. The saving grace is the amount of traffic lights keeps the speed down to around 30 to 40mph tops. I deal with this by claiming the left lane by cycling in the centre of it then pulling out of the left filter lane into the second lane reasonably early so the cars filtering left can undertake me (no pun intended). if the traffic was going any faster this would become difficult and dangerous
I can imagine that marked cycle lanes which suddenly disappear at the junction are going to confuse both cyclists and motorists alike and hinder rather than help traffic flow - our bus lanes do exactly the same. although wider the motorists seem to dangerously swerve into it and at you, then accelerate towards the junction as soon as the line goes dotted.
EDIT: BTW take it as read that I always check my rear and indicate before making any change in road position - just as our highway code says (unlike ~50% of our motorists who appear completely baffled by the function of mirrors and indicators)
Let's see if I can describe it adequately. It's a very big, busy road that was completely redesigned not too long ago to address traffic congestion and add the bike lanes.
This is what it looked like before all the work. The satellite image is old, while the street markings and labels for the freeway ramps are current.
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.909199,-86.076384&spn=0.00426,0.004876&t=h&z=1 8&output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.909199,-86.076384&spn=0.00426,0.004876&t=h&z=1 8&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>
Turning off the 45deg view gives you more recent imagery, showing the layout of things while under construction.
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.909199,-86.076384&spn=0.003012,0.004876&t=h&z= 18&output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.909199,-86.076384&spn=0.003012,0.004876&t=h&z= 18&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>
This pic shows some signage of the lane on Allisonville Rd. before it reaches the freeway interchange. Note the sign indicating that the lane is between the turn lane and the straight lane for cars.
Allisonville Road Bike Lanes | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
This vid shows part of the bike lane, in particular the green paint and the dashed lane markings where car traffic must cross the bike lane to enter the right turn lane, though you don't see the part where there are two right turn lanes to the right of the bike lane. Skip to about 1:45 when they actually start their ride.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AXn4DFmAmwE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
The following links are some educational materials the city has put together describing how bike lanes are implemented across the city, particularly the green lanes.
Safety Terms & Signals
And links to relevant bike laws.
Rules & Ordinances
the vid in this article shows the situation I mentioned earlier where the turn lane merges into and becomes shared with the bike lane.
Are new bike lanes working?
the bit about Broad Ripple Avenue at 1:50 or so shows a cyclist entering one of those lanes. The merging zone is green, and then after the green portion, you see a sharrow for the shared portion. Searching for an illustration of this turned up a LOT of articles about folks pissed about the bike lane on this road. I was driving this road for the first time post-bike lane and unaware of the shifting of the bike lane. I wound up in a right turn lane when I didn't want to be and thankfully no bikers were there and I got back where I needed to be. A car behind me used that shared space to pass me on the right in bad weather.
We have quite a lot of those junctions - No idea how to do all that google maps business and save it but if you put in Tampines South Junction in Google Maps it will show it about 1/2 a mile from my house - the intersections where neither road has traffic lights the speed is usually in excess of 50mph and can be pretty scary - but even our traffic light intersections will usually have a two lane left filter lane that avoids the lights. Our traffic authority likes to put pedestrian crossings on these and then wonder why we end up with people getting knocked down
Thanks for the comprehensive response, Nate. The city`s website is killer, too!
SJ, Singapore! For some reason I had it in my mind that you were an Aussie. Not very good with accents, am I?
The old Allisonville interchange felt suicidal in a car, so that is some effort to get bikes across safely.
It is so much smoother while driving. I think it is roughly the same design as the Emerson interchange in Beech Grove, so I hope they bring it to other areas that need a reduction in traffic lights. One nice thing about it is that traffic exiting from 465 N wishing to turn onto 86th St to go to the mall never crosses the bike lane.
Originally Posted by BrianMc
Street riding 101 ... Never trust someone in a cage, to do what is right.
The last time that happened to me, I was young and dumb ... Kicked the crap out of the passenger door
Be thankful you're not a spot on the pavement, and move on.
" It’s a bit like telling an ant not to get trodden on,"
"What's the problem? I missed you!" attitude is a problem. The mere slaps on the wrist for maiming and killing cyclists when it was in the driver's power to avoid the accident, does not help. I am a better defensive driver from the practice I get on a bike, but it would be nice to think motorists are trying to meet me halfway. It can be a very dangerous form of bullying.
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