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  1. #1
    The Notorious S.L.O
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    "Yield does Not Equal Stop". question please

    Not trying to start yet another flame war, but I had posed this question in the midst of the other post regarding trail use, but am truly looking for some insight into the issue. Hoping this post does not devolve in the same manner as the other post.

    I am still struggling on how we acknowledge and yield the right of way on a 24-36in wide trail w/o stopping. The right of way belongs to the uphill rider and until he/she surrenders it, I have to yield. Slowing down and continuing on downhill does not indicate that I recognize the right of way, but the opposite, that I am proceeding regardless of who has the right of way.

    I know that several years back when JeffCo was on a tear about trail conflict include mtb, their stance was that the mtb “had” to stop to indicate the recognition of the right of way to the other user. ( I also seem to recall something about a dismount being required by some overzealous rangers).

    Personally, I make it a rule to stop for all other trails users, regardless of uphill/downhill unless they wave/call me or if they step off the trail, passing at a reduced speed. I also stop for all uphill mtb riders, again, only passing slowly if they call me on.

    Not trying to impose my behavior on anyone, just looking to understand how to effectively yield and recognize the right of way of the other user without coming to a stop.
    BT
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by btadlock View Post
    ...I am still struggling on how we acknowledge and yield the right of way on a 24-36in wide trail w/o stopping. The right of way belongs to the uphill rider and until he/she surrenders it, I have to yield. Slowing down and continuing on downhill does not indicate that I recognize the right of way, but the opposite, that I am proceeding regardless of who has the right of way...
    Exactly. Yield means yield.

    The pseudo-yield is a meaningless gesture. The subtext is I know I'm supposed to yield, but I really don't want to so I'll keep rolling and hope you just get out of my way.

    Furthermore, it widens trails. The typical behavior of the pseudo-yielder is to slow down and ride off the side of the trail. If you care about following the rules, being polite, AND not widening trails you should stop, step to the side pull your bike off trail and leave the line to the climber.

    On the Monarch Crest Trail I get really peeved. Almost everybody is traveling the same direction, so yielding isn't really the issue so much as faster riders passing slower ones. That tundra vegetation is really fragile. It only takes a few people riding on it to kill it for the season. Sometimes the ego headcramp hotshot riders will just ride off trail and start passing a slower rider or group of riders without even saying anything or asking for a pass. Always kills me to be up there in such a beautiful pristine place and see people who really care about getting through it 30 seconds quicker and as a result will be nasty about asking for a pass or just ride around people. Really?

    I also see people who are asked to pass and just ride off the trail and keep going without saying a word.

    Up here all the locals are so friendly and chatty, it's hard to understand some of the visitors being so, well, stick-up-the-butt about the whole experience.

    I mean damn, it's only friggin' mountain biking. It's not like we're on our way to save a life or fight a fire. Try smiling and just having some patience. If you're descending, what really is so awful about stopping for a few seconds, vacating the trail, and saying hello to one of your brethren?

    I don't get it. Been watching flame wars over this issue for 20 damned years.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

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  3. #3
    I work in .001 tolerances
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Try smiling and just having some patience. If you're descending, what really is so awful about stopping for a few seconds, vacating the trail, and saying hello to one of your brethren?

    This.

    /thread

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Exactly. Yield means yield.

    The pseudo-yield is a meaningless gesture. The subtext is I know I'm supposed to yield, but I really don't want to so I'll keep rolling and hope you just get out of my way.

    Furthermore, it widens trails. The typical behavior of the pseudo-yielder is to slow down and ride off the side of the trail. If you care about following the rules, being polite, AND not widening trails you should stop, step to the side pull your bike off trail and leave the line to the climber.

    On the Monarch Crest Trail I get really peeved. Almost everybody is traveling the same direction, so yielding isn't really the issue so much as faster riders passing slower ones. That tundra vegetation is really fragile. It only takes a few people riding on it to kill it for the season. Sometimes the ego headcramp hotshot riders will just ride off trail and start passing a slower rider or group of riders without even saying anything or asking for a pass. Always kills me to be up there in such a beautiful pristine place and see people who really care about getting through it 30 seconds quicker and as a result will be nasty about asking for a pass or just ride around people. Really?

    I also see people who are asked to pass and just ride off the trail and keep going without saying a word.

    Up here all the locals are so friendly and chatty, it's hard to understand some of the visitors being so, well, stick-up-the-butt about the whole experience.

    I mean damn, it's only friggin' mountain biking. It's not like we're on our way to save a life or fight a fire. Try smiling and just having some patience. If you're descending, what really is so awful about stopping for a few seconds, vacating the trail, and saying hello to one of your brethren?

    I don't get it. Been watching flame wars over this issue for 20 damned years.
    Your well thought out and level headed responses are spot on...but killing the entertainment value of these important threads

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Up here all the locals are so friendly and chatty, it's hard to understand some of the visitors being so, well, stick-up-the-butt about the whole experience.

    I mean damn, it's only friggin' mountain biking. It's not like we're on our way to save a life or fight a fire. Try smiling and just having some patience. If you're descending, what really is so awful about stopping for a few seconds, vacating the trail, and saying hello to one of your brethren?

    I don't get it. Been watching flame wars over this issue for 20 damned years.
    Dude, you have NO idea how bad it's getting down here in the population! How many years have you been Salida now?

    Ever been yelled at by a downhilling stick-in-the-ass Boulderite "professional" XCer on that 8ft wide Marshall Mesa "driveway" who couldn't handle his sh!+ on a 29er coming down a gravelly road? I pull into the middle of the trail to try to force a stop of a fellow rider in a Meetup group because I see her front wheel's QR was wide open. I stop in my 1/2 of the road, and this owner of ye park starts in w/ attitude as he weeble wobbles by me.

    I'm one typically to pull over for downhillers, let alone climbers. But in this situation, I was ready to widow his wife, since the attitude con't after the QR situation was communicated. Admittedly, it prob didn't help that I did extend an invite to him to cross the football field's dist to demonstrate his displeasure w/ me. Alas huevos de NADA had nada.

    My point: the sport is getting WAY popular for a fixed amount of acres...and there are some SEVERE lack of trail clue from a large percentage of every Tom (nothing personal) Dick and Harry donning a bike helmet and picking up a new Hardrock 29er. We have those signage on how bikes deal w/ other user group...but ever notice that there's not a single thing except for word of mouth on how we deal w/ each other w/in our own user group?
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  6. #6
    The White Jeff W
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    Re: "Yield does Not Equal Stop". question please

    A brochure on trail etiquette and safety should go out the door with every new bike.
    No moss...

  7. #7
    Living the High Life
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    I guess most people failed their driver's test. No wonder they are all on bikes, they don't know how to drive.

    You folks all screwed this part up didn't ya?

    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Dude, you have NO idea how bad it's getting down here in the population! How many years have you been Salida now? ...
    Thirteen years now.

    Yeah, I know. It's bad.

    My time elbowing my way into the JeffCo Open Space Parks is actually 20 years back now. Went to Ft Collins for school from Littleton in '93. Back then there wasn't much good riding in Ft Fun, but there weren't that many riders, and very few douchenozzles. Then I was living and riding in the Springs during the last four years of the previous century. The Springs for all it's mean-azz god traffic and bad restaurants was a better place to be a mountain biker than the Denver Metroplex or FC (FC's riding has bloomed in the last 10 years).

    So yeah, I know it's worse. Part of it is the fast dh-oriented bikes have gotten so much better. Back in '93 some douche would brush past you at full speed riding a fully rigid Mongoose, now the same sh!t happens and it's a bored-out SB66 or Tallboy rolling at twice the speed.

    But it's not like the same exact argument wasn't being beat to death on the internet. Back in '93 before http hit the mainstream the howling back and forth happened on usenet between geeks on unix boxes using trn.

    rec.bicycles.misc

    Back then, helmet wars were life and death too. Don't see much of that nowadays.

    EDIT: Used to be that there would be battles to the death over whether square bottom bracket spindles should be greased or dry before installing the crank arms!
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Thirteen years now.

    Yeah, I know. It's bad.
    .
    .
    .
    But it's not like the same exact argument wasn't being beat to death on the internet. Back in '93 before http hit the mainstream the howling back and forth happened on usenet between geeks on unix boxes using trn. rec.bicycles.misc
    Oh, I remember the days of alt.bicycles.blah blah blah whambulances...doesn't mean it's gotten any better. Fact is, what w/ all the influx of TX, AZ, and CA refugees, there's a pretty huge disproportional growth in body count vs trail acres. I recall when I first came down from Steamboat ('05) to Golden...my first thought about the trail crowds was, JEEBUS what a clusterphuk! And, the wagon wheels makes the FR tech a LOT more do-able for a lot lower rider abilities, and the associated experience and understanding of trail etiquette.

    What Ithnu said below...yield != stop. For many of us on here, we could prob track stand the duration for a climber to get by...rolling a foot or two once in a while. I choose to stop (foot down) for ups and downs because I don't trust 90% of the people's abilities on the trails...I guess defensive riding...I don't need some s.p.o.t.s. (stoopid people on their sh!+) sending me and my bike into rocks or down a cliff.
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  10. #10
    The Notorious S.L.O
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu View Post
    I guess most people failed their driver's test. No wonder they are all on bikes, they don't know how to drive.

    You folks all screwed this part up didn't ya?

    I understand the explicit differences in yield vs stop in the motor vehicle sense, but that is precisely my question, albeit yield does not always require a full stop in the motor vehicle world, but it does require us to recognize the right of way to the other motor vehicle and grant him access\passage before we proceed, so…. How do we recognize the right of way of the other trail user, and grant his access\passage on the 24-36in wide trail without stopping?

    IMHO, just slowing down to pass, either the hiker/runner or the uphill rider is not recognition of their right of way.
    BT
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  11. #11
    Almost Human
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    Just think, these guys may be on the same trail as you.


  12. #12
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    "Yield does Not Equal Stop". question please

    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu View Post
    I guess most people failed their driver's test. No wonder they are all on bikes, they don't know how to drive.

    You folks all screwed this part up didn't ya?

    This, the you have to stop people are the same ones that stop getting in a on ramp on the interstate since yield and stop means the same thing.


    I tapped that

  13. #13
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    What does that mean??


    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    This, the you have to stop people are the same ones that stop getting in a on ramp on the interstate since yield and stop means the same thing.


    I tapped that

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Furthermore, it widens trails. The typical behavior of the pseudo-yielder is to slow down and ride off the side of the trail. If you care about following the rules, being polite, AND not widening trails you should stop, step to the side pull your bike off trail and leave the line to the climber.

    On the Monarch Crest Trail I get really peeved. Almost everybody is traveling the same direction, so yielding isn't really the issue so much as faster riders passing slower ones. That tundra vegetation is really fragile. It only takes a few people riding on it to kill it for the season. Sometimes the ego headcramp hotshot riders will just ride off trail and start passing a slower rider or group of riders without even saying anything or asking for a pass. Always kills me to be up there in such a beautiful pristine place and see people who really care about getting through it 30 seconds quicker and as a result will be nasty about asking for a pass or just ride around people. Really?

    I also see people who are asked to pass and just ride off the trail and keep going without saying a word.
    Thanks for posting that up.
    The "riding off the trail yield" drives me nuts, too. But it is so prevalent here on the Front Range that I have given up trying to educate anyone about it. People who actually stop and lean or step off the trail are so rare I am almost too surprised to say "thank you" when I actually see it.
    It also floors me that when I yield and step off or lean my bike out of the way, bikers STILL ride off the trail to go around me. Really? The trail is 2 feet wide, you can't stay on a 2 foot wide track? Or do they think this is being polite in some way?

    (dang, suckered into a complaint thread again. Nice to have a chance to vent though)
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffw-13 View Post
    A brochure on trail etiquette and safety should go out the door with every new bike.
    And would be thrown out on arrival home. Seriously, how many people ever read the stuff that comes with a new purchase of ANYTHING?
    I drank the 29er koolaid- turns out it was POWERade

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    ... the you have to stop people are the same ones that stop getting in a on ramp on the interstate since yield and stop means the same thing...
    Interstate on-ramps aren't yield. They are merge. There's a difference.

    If I come to an intersection where I have a yield sign and somebody is coming. I have to stop. Properly yielding sometimes means stopping.

    Just like it does on the trail.

    Getting on an interstate, you are supposed to get yourself up to speed that matches the traffic on the highway, find a gap in the traffic and slide into it. That's a merge. Stopping on an on-ramp is wrong. And stupid. And annoying.
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  17. #17
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    "Yield does Not Equal Stop". question please

    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Interstate on-ramps aren't yield. They are merge. There's a difference.

    If I come to an intersection where I have a yield sign and somebody is coming. I have to stop. Properly yielding sometimes means stopping.

    Just like it does on the trail.

    Getting on an interstate, you are supposed to get yourself up to speed that matches the traffic on the highway, find a gap in the traffic and slide into it. That's a merge. Stopping on an on-ramp is wrong. And stupid. And annoying.
    And dangerous.
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  18. #18
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    "If I come to an intersection where I have a yield sign and somebody is coming. I have to stop. Properly yielding sometimes means stopping."

    Exactly. That is why "Yield" signs were changed from yellow with black lettering to red and white (just like a STOP sign). If you cannot enter traffic without impeding the flow, you are required to stop. And, in sharing a trail with other users, sometimes you have to stop to yield to others.

  19. #19
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    Get over your WPP

    Full grown adults don't understand the concept of yielding the right-of-way (ROW), how amusing. Yield does not require a full stop, yet yield implies stopping, if necessary, to allow another the ROW. It's pretty simple: uphill users have the ROW, and bikes must yield the ROW to other trail users. Stopping is not required, but not stopping is a dick-move. Stop. Smile. Wave. Say, "Hello," and "Good day." That way, everyone is happy.

    If you're thinking, "Do I have the ROW?" The prudent thing is to stop and yield.

    It's laughable how upset some become at these situations. It's absurd, and immature, that people would threaten physical violence over such a trivial matter. Leave the middle-school angst in the car at the TH. We're talking about riding bikes for recreation. There are more pressing matters that deserve this kind of thought. Be thankful we live in a society that grants us privileges like riding bikes for fun.

  20. #20
    Abby Normal
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Try smiling and just having some patience.
    Well now that's just *crazy talk* ;-)

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    Full grown adults don't understand the concept of yielding the right-of-way (ROW), how amusing. Yield does not require a full stop, yet yield implies stopping, if necessary, to allow another the ROW. It's pretty simple: uphill users have the ROW, and bikes must yield the ROW to other trail users. Stopping is not required, but not stopping is a dick-move. Stop. Smile. Wave. Say, "Hello," and "Good day." That way, everyone is happy.

    If you're thinking, "Do I have the ROW?" The prudent thing is to stop and yield.

    It's laughable how upset some become at these situations. It's absurd, and immature, that people would threaten physical violence over such a trivial matter. Leave the middle-school angst in the car at the TH. We're talking about riding bikes for recreation. There are more pressing matters that deserve this kind of thought. Be thankful we live in a society that grants us privileges like riding bikes for fun.
    This.
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  22. #22
    Living the High Life
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    Just think, these guys may be on the same trail as you.
    So many people without helmets. And even the ones with them make me want to wear my full face everywhere now.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu View Post
    So many people without helmets. And even the ones with them make me want to wear my full face everywhere now.
    Sooo many chin dabs! Notice tho, not any where ppl spat out teeth!
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffw-13 View Post
    A brochure on trail etiquette and safety should go out the door with every new bike.
    That would mean the shop would actually have people with knowledge working there, not a 17 year old Demo rider that just rang up a new squishy 29er that's way too much bike for the rider's skill level, but the rider just read in MBA how great it is, so he/she has to have it, regardless of how it fits them, what they plan to use it to ride, etc... Welcome to the modern shop and the riders it's equipping.

  25. #25
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    Obviously we need moar trails.

    And if we make 1 of them an easily accessable biker-only one-way trail, we may be able to contain the spread of the giant douche blob.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

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