Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 55
  1. #1
    The Notorious S.L.O
    Reputation: btadlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,100

    "Yield does Not Equal Stop". question please

    Not trying to start yet another flame war, but I had posed this question in the midst of the other post regarding trail use, but am truly looking for some insight into the issue. Hoping this post does not devolve in the same manner as the other post.

    I am still struggling on how we acknowledge and yield the right of way on a 24-36in wide trail w/o stopping. The right of way belongs to the uphill rider and until he/she surrenders it, I have to yield. Slowing down and continuing on downhill does not indicate that I recognize the right of way, but the opposite, that I am proceeding regardless of who has the right of way.

    I know that several years back when JeffCo was on a tear about trail conflict include mtb, their stance was that the mtb “had” to stop to indicate the recognition of the right of way to the other user. ( I also seem to recall something about a dismount being required by some overzealous rangers).

    Personally, I make it a rule to stop for all other trails users, regardless of uphill/downhill unless they wave/call me or if they step off the trail, passing at a reduced speed. I also stop for all uphill mtb riders, again, only passing slowly if they call me on.

    Not trying to impose my behavior on anyone, just looking to understand how to effectively yield and recognize the right of way of the other user without coming to a stop.
    BT
    11 Trek Hifi Delux 23in
    05 Giant NRS 22.5in
    Evergreen Co.
    "All I need is.......two wheels and the truth."

  2. #2
    Team Velveeta™
    Reputation: TomP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,001
    Quote Originally Posted by btadlock View Post
    ...I am still struggling on how we acknowledge and yield the right of way on a 24-36in wide trail w/o stopping. The right of way belongs to the uphill rider and until he/she surrenders it, I have to yield. Slowing down and continuing on downhill does not indicate that I recognize the right of way, but the opposite, that I am proceeding regardless of who has the right of way...
    Exactly. Yield means yield.

    The pseudo-yield is a meaningless gesture. The subtext is I know I'm supposed to yield, but I really don't want to so I'll keep rolling and hope you just get out of my way.

    Furthermore, it widens trails. The typical behavior of the pseudo-yielder is to slow down and ride off the side of the trail. If you care about following the rules, being polite, AND not widening trails you should stop, step to the side pull your bike off trail and leave the line to the climber.

    On the Monarch Crest Trail I get really peeved. Almost everybody is traveling the same direction, so yielding isn't really the issue so much as faster riders passing slower ones. That tundra vegetation is really fragile. It only takes a few people riding on it to kill it for the season. Sometimes the ego headcramp hotshot riders will just ride off trail and start passing a slower rider or group of riders without even saying anything or asking for a pass. Always kills me to be up there in such a beautiful pristine place and see people who really care about getting through it 30 seconds quicker and as a result will be nasty about asking for a pass or just ride around people. Really?

    I also see people who are asked to pass and just ride off the trail and keep going without saying a word.

    Up here all the locals are so friendly and chatty, it's hard to understand some of the visitors being so, well, stick-up-the-butt about the whole experience.

    I mean damn, it's only friggin' mountain biking. It's not like we're on our way to save a life or fight a fire. Try smiling and just having some patience. If you're descending, what really is so awful about stopping for a few seconds, vacating the trail, and saying hello to one of your brethren?

    I don't get it. Been watching flame wars over this issue for 20 damned years.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

    "I like my wimmen like I like my beer--cold and bitter!"

  3. #3
    I work in .001 tolerances
    Reputation: HomegrownMN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,243
    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Try smiling and just having some patience. If you're descending, what really is so awful about stopping for a few seconds, vacating the trail, and saying hello to one of your brethren?

    This.

    /thread

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    823
    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Exactly. Yield means yield.

    The pseudo-yield is a meaningless gesture. The subtext is I know I'm supposed to yield, but I really don't want to so I'll keep rolling and hope you just get out of my way.

    Furthermore, it widens trails. The typical behavior of the pseudo-yielder is to slow down and ride off the side of the trail. If you care about following the rules, being polite, AND not widening trails you should stop, step to the side pull your bike off trail and leave the line to the climber.

    On the Monarch Crest Trail I get really peeved. Almost everybody is traveling the same direction, so yielding isn't really the issue so much as faster riders passing slower ones. That tundra vegetation is really fragile. It only takes a few people riding on it to kill it for the season. Sometimes the ego headcramp hotshot riders will just ride off trail and start passing a slower rider or group of riders without even saying anything or asking for a pass. Always kills me to be up there in such a beautiful pristine place and see people who really care about getting through it 30 seconds quicker and as a result will be nasty about asking for a pass or just ride around people. Really?

    I also see people who are asked to pass and just ride off the trail and keep going without saying a word.

    Up here all the locals are so friendly and chatty, it's hard to understand some of the visitors being so, well, stick-up-the-butt about the whole experience.

    I mean damn, it's only friggin' mountain biking. It's not like we're on our way to save a life or fight a fire. Try smiling and just having some patience. If you're descending, what really is so awful about stopping for a few seconds, vacating the trail, and saying hello to one of your brethren?

    I don't get it. Been watching flame wars over this issue for 20 damned years.
    Your well thought out and level headed responses are spot on...but killing the entertainment value of these important threads

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Pau11y's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    6,840
    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Up here all the locals are so friendly and chatty, it's hard to understand some of the visitors being so, well, stick-up-the-butt about the whole experience.

    I mean damn, it's only friggin' mountain biking. It's not like we're on our way to save a life or fight a fire. Try smiling and just having some patience. If you're descending, what really is so awful about stopping for a few seconds, vacating the trail, and saying hello to one of your brethren?

    I don't get it. Been watching flame wars over this issue for 20 damned years.
    Dude, you have NO idea how bad it's getting down here in the population! How many years have you been Salida now?

    Ever been yelled at by a downhilling stick-in-the-ass Boulderite "professional" XCer on that 8ft wide Marshall Mesa "driveway" who couldn't handle his sh!+ on a 29er coming down a gravelly road? I pull into the middle of the trail to try to force a stop of a fellow rider in a Meetup group because I see her front wheel's QR was wide open. I stop in my 1/2 of the road, and this owner of ye park starts in w/ attitude as he weeble wobbles by me.

    I'm one typically to pull over for downhillers, let alone climbers. But in this situation, I was ready to widow his wife, since the attitude con't after the QR situation was communicated. Admittedly, it prob didn't help that I did extend an invite to him to cross the football field's dist to demonstrate his displeasure w/ me. Alas huevos de NADA had nada.

    My point: the sport is getting WAY popular for a fixed amount of acres...and there are some SEVERE lack of trail clue from a large percentage of every Tom (nothing personal) Dick and Harry donning a bike helmet and picking up a new Hardrock 29er. We have those signage on how bikes deal w/ other user group...but ever notice that there's not a single thing except for word of mouth on how we deal w/ each other w/in our own user group?
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
    ╭∩╮( º.º )╭∩╮

  6. #6
    The White Jeff W
    Reputation: jeffw-13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,284

    Re: "Yield does Not Equal Stop". question please

    A brochure on trail etiquette and safety should go out the door with every new bike.
    No moss...

  7. #7
    Living the High Life
    Reputation: Ithnu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,535
    I guess most people failed their driver's test. No wonder they are all on bikes, they don't know how to drive.

    You folks all screwed this part up didn't ya?

    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  8. #8
    Team Velveeta™
    Reputation: TomP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,001
    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Dude, you have NO idea how bad it's getting down here in the population! How many years have you been Salida now? ...
    Thirteen years now.

    Yeah, I know. It's bad.

    My time elbowing my way into the JeffCo Open Space Parks is actually 20 years back now. Went to Ft Collins for school from Littleton in '93. Back then there wasn't much good riding in Ft Fun, but there weren't that many riders, and very few douchenozzles. Then I was living and riding in the Springs during the last four years of the previous century. The Springs for all it's mean-azz god traffic and bad restaurants was a better place to be a mountain biker than the Denver Metroplex or FC (FC's riding has bloomed in the last 10 years).

    So yeah, I know it's worse. Part of it is the fast dh-oriented bikes have gotten so much better. Back in '93 some douche would brush past you at full speed riding a fully rigid Mongoose, now the same sh!t happens and it's a bored-out SB66 or Tallboy rolling at twice the speed.

    But it's not like the same exact argument wasn't being beat to death on the internet. Back in '93 before http hit the mainstream the howling back and forth happened on usenet between geeks on unix boxes using trn.

    rec.bicycles.misc

    Back then, helmet wars were life and death too. Don't see much of that nowadays.

    EDIT: Used to be that there would be battles to the death over whether square bottom bracket spindles should be greased or dry before installing the crank arms!
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

    "I like my wimmen like I like my beer--cold and bitter!"

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Pau11y's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    6,840
    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Thirteen years now.

    Yeah, I know. It's bad.
    .
    .
    .
    But it's not like the same exact argument wasn't being beat to death on the internet. Back in '93 before http hit the mainstream the howling back and forth happened on usenet between geeks on unix boxes using trn. rec.bicycles.misc
    Oh, I remember the days of alt.bicycles.blah blah blah whambulances...doesn't mean it's gotten any better. Fact is, what w/ all the influx of TX, AZ, and CA refugees, there's a pretty huge disproportional growth in body count vs trail acres. I recall when I first came down from Steamboat ('05) to Golden...my first thought about the trail crowds was, JEEBUS what a clusterphuk! And, the wagon wheels makes the FR tech a LOT more do-able for a lot lower rider abilities, and the associated experience and understanding of trail etiquette.

    What Ithnu said below...yield != stop. For many of us on here, we could prob track stand the duration for a climber to get by...rolling a foot or two once in a while. I choose to stop (foot down) for ups and downs because I don't trust 90% of the people's abilities on the trails...I guess defensive riding...I don't need some s.p.o.t.s. (stoopid people on their sh!+) sending me and my bike into rocks or down a cliff.
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
    ╭∩╮( º.º )╭∩╮

  10. #10
    The Notorious S.L.O
    Reputation: btadlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu View Post
    I guess most people failed their driver's test. No wonder they are all on bikes, they don't know how to drive.

    You folks all screwed this part up didn't ya?

    I understand the explicit differences in yield vs stop in the motor vehicle sense, but that is precisely my question, albeit yield does not always require a full stop in the motor vehicle world, but it does require us to recognize the right of way to the other motor vehicle and grant him access\passage before we proceed, so…. How do we recognize the right of way of the other trail user, and grant his access\passage on the 24-36in wide trail without stopping?

    IMHO, just slowing down to pass, either the hiker/runner or the uphill rider is not recognition of their right of way.
    BT
    11 Trek Hifi Delux 23in
    05 Giant NRS 22.5in
    Evergreen Co.
    "All I need is.......two wheels and the truth."

  11. #11
    Almost Human
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,579
    Just think, these guys may be on the same trail as you.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wuOBhxoIl2I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  12. #12
    I'm with stupid
    Reputation: hitechredneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    4,986

    "Yield does Not Equal Stop". question please

    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu View Post
    I guess most people failed their driver's test. No wonder they are all on bikes, they don't know how to drive.

    You folks all screwed this part up didn't ya?

    This, the you have to stop people are the same ones that stop getting in a on ramp on the interstate since yield and stop means the same thing.


    I tapped that

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ironbrewer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    312
    What does that mean??


    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    This, the you have to stop people are the same ones that stop getting in a on ramp on the interstate since yield and stop means the same thing.


    I tapped that

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MtbRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    981
    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Furthermore, it widens trails. The typical behavior of the pseudo-yielder is to slow down and ride off the side of the trail. If you care about following the rules, being polite, AND not widening trails you should stop, step to the side pull your bike off trail and leave the line to the climber.

    On the Monarch Crest Trail I get really peeved. Almost everybody is traveling the same direction, so yielding isn't really the issue so much as faster riders passing slower ones. That tundra vegetation is really fragile. It only takes a few people riding on it to kill it for the season. Sometimes the ego headcramp hotshot riders will just ride off trail and start passing a slower rider or group of riders without even saying anything or asking for a pass. Always kills me to be up there in such a beautiful pristine place and see people who really care about getting through it 30 seconds quicker and as a result will be nasty about asking for a pass or just ride around people. Really?

    I also see people who are asked to pass and just ride off the trail and keep going without saying a word.
    Thanks for posting that up.
    The "riding off the trail yield" drives me nuts, too. But it is so prevalent here on the Front Range that I have given up trying to educate anyone about it. People who actually stop and lean or step off the trail are so rare I am almost too surprised to say "thank you" when I actually see it.
    It also floors me that when I yield and step off or lean my bike out of the way, bikers STILL ride off the trail to go around me. Really? The trail is 2 feet wide, you can't stay on a 2 foot wide track? Or do they think this is being polite in some way?

    (dang, suckered into a complaint thread again. Nice to have a chance to vent though)
    I drank the 29er koolaid- turns out it was POWERade

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MtbRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    981
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffw-13 View Post
    A brochure on trail etiquette and safety should go out the door with every new bike.
    And would be thrown out on arrival home. Seriously, how many people ever read the stuff that comes with a new purchase of ANYTHING?
    I drank the 29er koolaid- turns out it was POWERade

  16. #16
    Team Velveeta™
    Reputation: TomP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,001
    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    ... the you have to stop people are the same ones that stop getting in a on ramp on the interstate since yield and stop means the same thing...
    Interstate on-ramps aren't yield. They are merge. There's a difference.

    If I come to an intersection where I have a yield sign and somebody is coming. I have to stop. Properly yielding sometimes means stopping.

    Just like it does on the trail.

    Getting on an interstate, you are supposed to get yourself up to speed that matches the traffic on the highway, find a gap in the traffic and slide into it. That's a merge. Stopping on an on-ramp is wrong. And stupid. And annoying.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

    "I like my wimmen like I like my beer--cold and bitter!"

  17. #17
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,307

    "Yield does Not Equal Stop". question please

    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Interstate on-ramps aren't yield. They are merge. There's a difference.

    If I come to an intersection where I have a yield sign and somebody is coming. I have to stop. Properly yielding sometimes means stopping.

    Just like it does on the trail.

    Getting on an interstate, you are supposed to get yourself up to speed that matches the traffic on the highway, find a gap in the traffic and slide into it. That's a merge. Stopping on an on-ramp is wrong. And stupid. And annoying.
    And dangerous.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    286
    "If I come to an intersection where I have a yield sign and somebody is coming. I have to stop. Properly yielding sometimes means stopping."

    Exactly. That is why "Yield" signs were changed from yellow with black lettering to red and white (just like a STOP sign). If you cannot enter traffic without impeding the flow, you are required to stop. And, in sharing a trail with other users, sometimes you have to stop to yield to others.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rogbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,255

    Get over your WPP

    Full grown adults don't understand the concept of yielding the right-of-way (ROW), how amusing. Yield does not require a full stop, yet yield implies stopping, if necessary, to allow another the ROW. It's pretty simple: uphill users have the ROW, and bikes must yield the ROW to other trail users. Stopping is not required, but not stopping is a dick-move. Stop. Smile. Wave. Say, "Hello," and "Good day." That way, everyone is happy.

    If you're thinking, "Do I have the ROW?" The prudent thing is to stop and yield.

    It's laughable how upset some become at these situations. It's absurd, and immature, that people would threaten physical violence over such a trivial matter. Leave the middle-school angst in the car at the TH. We're talking about riding bikes for recreation. There are more pressing matters that deserve this kind of thought. Be thankful we live in a society that grants us privileges like riding bikes for fun.

  20. #20
    Abby Normal
    Reputation: Holmes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    534
    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Try smiling and just having some patience.
    Well now that's just *crazy talk* ;-)

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: zorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    465
    Quote Originally Posted by rogbie View Post
    Full grown adults don't understand the concept of yielding the right-of-way (ROW), how amusing. Yield does not require a full stop, yet yield implies stopping, if necessary, to allow another the ROW. It's pretty simple: uphill users have the ROW, and bikes must yield the ROW to other trail users. Stopping is not required, but not stopping is a dick-move. Stop. Smile. Wave. Say, "Hello," and "Good day." That way, everyone is happy.

    If you're thinking, "Do I have the ROW?" The prudent thing is to stop and yield.

    It's laughable how upset some become at these situations. It's absurd, and immature, that people would threaten physical violence over such a trivial matter. Leave the middle-school angst in the car at the TH. We're talking about riding bikes for recreation. There are more pressing matters that deserve this kind of thought. Be thankful we live in a society that grants us privileges like riding bikes for fun.
    This.
    It's not how old I am, it's how old I feel - Minor Threat

  22. #22
    Living the High Life
    Reputation: Ithnu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,535
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    Just think, these guys may be on the same trail as you.
    So many people without helmets. And even the ones with them make me want to wear my full face everywhere now.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Pau11y's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    6,840
    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu View Post
    So many people without helmets. And even the ones with them make me want to wear my full face everywhere now.
    Sooo many chin dabs! Notice tho, not any where ppl spat out teeth!
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
    ╭∩╮( º.º )╭∩╮

  24. #24
    thread crapper
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    754
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffw-13 View Post
    A brochure on trail etiquette and safety should go out the door with every new bike.
    That would mean the shop would actually have people with knowledge working there, not a 17 year old Demo rider that just rang up a new squishy 29er that's way too much bike for the rider's skill level, but the rider just read in MBA how great it is, so he/she has to have it, regardless of how it fits them, what they plan to use it to ride, etc... Welcome to the modern shop and the riders it's equipping.

  25. #25
    friend of Apex
    Reputation: WKD-RDR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,901
    Obviously we need moar trails.

    And if we make 1 of them an easily accessable biker-only one-way trail, we may be able to contain the spread of the giant douche blob.
    the drugs made me realize it's not about the drugs

  26. #26
    Almost Human
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Ithnu View Post
    So many people without helmets. And even the ones with them make me want to wear my full face everywhere now.
    I wonder what is going through his mind right about now?


    &quot;Yield does Not Equal Stop&quot;. question please-freeridefail.jpg

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Pau11y's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    6,840
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTrail View Post
    I wonder what is going through his mind right about now?
    "...hope my power of flight is latent...would be nice if it came out in the next sec or two..."
    Naysayers never apologize. Critics go to their grave thinking everyone else is wrong.
    ╭∩╮( º.º )╭∩╮

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation: turbodog13's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by scottap2003 View Post
    That would mean the shop would actually have people with knowledge working there, not a 17 year old Demo rider that just rang up a new squishy 29er that's way too much bike for the rider's skill level, but the rider just read in MBA how great it is, so he/she has to have it, regardless of how it fits them, what they plan to use it to ride, etc... Welcome to the modern shop and the riders it's equipping.
    It is not the shops responsibility to determine a rider's skill level. Often times its pretty bad for a shop to make an assumption about what's too much bike for a rider. People want what they want. You want more knowledgeable sales staff in a shop? prepare to pay more for your gear. The margins and volume are way to thin to keep anyone that committed on payroll.

    Sorry for the off topic there. More one-way trail would help a lot. People who do the Nelson loop at Hall counter-clockwise should be committed. Trail congestion is pretty bad down on the front range, but WP was pretty much empty last weekend. Maybe take a short drive when you feel the "trail grumpies" building up.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rogbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,255
    Quote Originally Posted by scottap2003 View Post
    That would mean the shop would actually have people with knowledge working there, not a 17 year old Demo rider that just rang up a new squishy 29er that's way too much bike for the rider's skill level, but the rider just read in MBA how great it is, so he/she has to have it, regardless of how it fits them, what they plan to use it to ride, etc... Welcome to the modern shop and the riders it's equipping.
    Ultimately, in a shop, "the customer is always right." Good shops try to encourage people to buy appropriate bikes, but if a n00b wants to buy the latest/greatest thing that is their decision. The onus is on the rider to understand the rules set for riding on a trail.

    Since there is little official enforcement of trail rules, it is up to users to self-police. Unfortunately, some fail to recognize that the utmost restraint and tact is needed to enforce trail etiquette amongst trail users. Direct confrontation rarely works, as both parties feel entitled to their way of thinking/acting. The yield concept addresses this conflict. However, yielding relies on the concept of common-courtesy. Common-courtesy is the willful act of regarding others in one's actions. For example, looking behind when opening a door and holding the door open for anyone behind; or, staying the right when walking up stairs or on a sidewalk/path, or multi-lane roadway.

  30. #30
    Team Velveeta™
    Reputation: TomP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,001
    Quote Originally Posted by scottap2003 View Post
    That would mean the shop would actually have people with knowledge working there, not a 17 year old Demo rider that just rang up a new squishy 29er that's way too much bike for the rider's skill level, but the rider just read in MBA how great it is, so he/she has to have it, regardless of how it fits them, what they plan to use it to ride, etc... Welcome to the modern shop and the riders it's equipping.
    If somebody who can afford it wants to spend big dollars on "way too much bike for the rider's skill level", I say God bless them. The shop and and bike industry in general benefits. It would be the height of arrogance, and ridiculously bad business, for anybody to talk that person out of making a big purchase because it's too much bike for them. We all benefit. The more good quality stuff that sells, the cheaper it winds up getting for the rest of us.

    Now, it should fit. Selling people ill-fitting bikes at any price point is irresponsible. But if a novice rider who can afford a $5000 bicycle wants it, good GOD man sell it to them!

    I happen to know lots of people who work in shops who are very knowledgeable. If you have that view of bike shop people, you are going to the wrong shops.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

    "I like my wimmen like I like my beer--cold and bitter!"

  31. #31
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by btadlock View Post
    I understand the explicit differences in yield vs stop in the motor vehicle sense, but that is precisely my question, albeit yield does not always require a full stop in the motor vehicle world, but it does require us to recognize the right of way to the other motor vehicle and grant him access\passage before we proceed, so…. How do we recognize the right of way of the other trail user, and grant his access\passage on the 24-36in wide trail without stopping?

    IMHO, just slowing down to pass, either the hiker/runner or the uphill rider is not recognition of their right of way.

    Its not hard, if there is another rider, you YIELD the trail to them. That means you STOP. Its no different than in a car, a Yield sign is just a stop sign that is only in effect when there is opposing traffic.

  32. #32
    thread crapper
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    754
    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog13 View Post
    It is not the shops responsibility to determine a rider's skill level. Often times its pretty bad for a shop to make an assumption about what's too much bike for a rider. People want what they want. You want more knowledgeable sales staff in a shop? prepare to pay more for your gear. The margins and volume are way to thin to keep anyone that committed on payroll.

    Sorry for the off topic there. More one-way trail would help a lot. People who do the Nelson loop at Hall counter-clockwise should be committed. Trail congestion is pretty bad down on the front range, but WP was pretty much empty last weekend. Maybe take a short drive when you feel the "trail grumpies" building up.
    I work in a shop. I see it every friggin day! I work hard with my customers to get to know their needs and wants in a bike, then figure out what best fits those needs. If they're dead set on the bling bike, I'll sell it to them, but I make sure they know what they're getting. I'm just tired of seeing 5', 90 lb girls, out on 29" sleds that will never fit them properly, riding the multi-use commuter trails. Yeah, the person that gets that bike next is going to get a killer bike that's hardly been used, but the first owner is likely to hate the sport, hate her bike, and talk about how horrible it is to all her friends. Whereas if she's on a bike the fits her and her needs, she may just fall in love.

    Prepare to pay more huh? Get rid of dead weight. I've worked in too many shops that have too many "friends" working for them. Who cares if they're your in-law's cousin's best friend. They don't know dik about about bikes, don't want to learn, and are just picking up a check. Bike shops aren't the welfare department. I want employees that give a crap and have a clue. Send them to Wal-Mart or some other big box store if they just want a job. Time for shop owners to grow a pair!

  33. #33
    thread crapper
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    754
    Back on topic, I still say every situation is different. Keep your wits about you, know your surroundings and situation, and dangit, be nice to other riders. It could be that they're miserable because they're riding a bike that doesn't fit or is too much for them to handle.

  34. #34
    Free your heel...
    Reputation: hopsalot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Properly yielding sometimes means stopping.
    Bingo, it's situational. 36inches is plenty wide for two riders to pass without either having to full stop yield (FSY). Slow down, make eye contact and say "Hi, have a good ride" is more than enough comunication on the trail. Lets keep the traffic flowing, reduce full stop yields (FSY's) to maintain good spacing on the trail can reduce the need to yield in the first place.

  35. #35
    The Notorious S.L.O
    Reputation: btadlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,100
    Quote Originally Posted by musikron View Post
    Its not hard, if there is another rider, you YIELD the trail to them. That means you STOP. Its no different than in a car, a Yield sign is just a stop sign that is only in effect when there is opposing traffic.
    I guess my point was not clear, I don't believe that it is possible to yield and recognize the right of way of the other user without STOPPING. That is how I do it, I stop for all other trail users and the uphill rider.
    I started this post to understand the statement made in a couple of other trail use posts that stated "yield does not mean full stop", "the problem is with all the full stop yields"
    BT
    11 Trek Hifi Delux 23in
    05 Giant NRS 22.5in
    Evergreen Co.
    "All I need is.......two wheels and the truth."

  36. #36
    zrm
    zrm is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,472
    I really don't understand why some people have so much difficulty with this. Is coming to a stop and making room (while keeping in mind being as respectful of the trail and surrounding vegetation) that difficult? Are people so wrapped up in their fun (this is something we do for recreation you know) that they're "full speed ahead damn whatever gets in my way I don't care about anything but me"?

    Yes, in some situations, yielding ROW might not mean coming to a complete stop. On double track or a very wide trail (I don't think 3' is wide enough for a rolling yield BTW) you can slow and give room, but you should always slow way down.

    I love going downhill as much as anyone. I love going fast. I don't think anyone who's ever ridden with me would say I'm timid or don't have technical skills when the trail points down, but come on, it's just riding bikes. I have never felt it's some kind of personal affront to interrupt my downhill to let a climber, or hiker, or whoever go past.

    It's really sad to me how many people often don't think of anything but their own immediate short term gratification.

  37. #37
    bacon! bacon! bacon!
    Reputation: SkaredShtles's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    11,733
    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    <snip>
    It's really sad to me how many people often don't think of anything but their own immediate short term gratification.
    Aren't you kinda old to be this naïve?

  38. #38
    The Notorious S.L.O
    Reputation: btadlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,100
    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot View Post
    Bingo, it's situational. 36inches is plenty wide for two riders to pass without either having to full stop yield (FSY). Slow down, make eye contact and say "Hi, have a good ride" is more than enough comunication on the trail. Lets keep the traffic flowing, reduce full stop yields (FSY's) to maintain good spacing on the trail can reduce the need to yield in the first place.
    This was the kind of response that hoping to have clarified.
    How can recognizing the ROW be situational? The right of way is granted to one user as a matter of rule and the only way that can be effective is if it is consistent.
    IMHO, the “rolling yield” on anything other than perhaps double track, does not recognize the ROW of the entitled user.
    I am not as concerned about bike on bike interaction, but bike vs. other users, they are the ones that will complain about mtb riders to the officials.
    BT
    11 Trek Hifi Delux 23in
    05 Giant NRS 22.5in
    Evergreen Co.
    "All I need is.......two wheels and the truth."

  39. #39
    Team Velveeta™
    Reputation: TomP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,001
    Quote Originally Posted by btadlock View Post
    ...How can recognizing the ROW be situational? The right of way is granted to one user as a matter of rule and the only way that can be effective is if it is consistent...
    I think this is a key point. People who claim the right to define yielding of right-of-way situationally are basically saying I will decide.

    So, for example, I will decide that a 36" wide trail is wide enough for an on-trail pass. What if the climbing rider doesn't have that comfort level? Sure, you have mad skillz and can be trusted to safely pass somebody on a 36" wide track even though your handlebar is 32" wide and so is theirs I (if you both are on the perfect outside edge of that track there will be roughly 4" of error margin for your bars not to crash into each other).

    But you have mad skillz! Isn't it obvious to that rider?? You aren't out of control! You aren't being rude or impatient or a strav******* out to impress the world with your MAD SKILLZ! You are yielding in an acceptable way! According to you. And you should know because you have MAD SKILLZ!

    No, the reality is, that downhill rider is now at the mercy of your judgement. On a 36" wide trail it would be totally rational for that rider to feel the need to get out of your way.

    Guess what? You have just become what I'll call a situational douchenozzle.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

    "I like my wimmen like I like my beer--cold and bitter!"

  40. #40
    Almost Human
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,579
    Quote Originally Posted by btadlock View Post
    This was the kind of response that hoping to have clarified.
    How can recognizing the ROW be situational? The right of way is granted to one user as a matter of rule and the only way that can be effective is if it is consistent.
    IMHO, the “rolling yield” on anything other than perhaps double track, does not recognize the ROW of the entitled user.
    I am not as concerned about bike on bike interaction, but bike vs. other users, they are the ones that will complain about mtb riders to the officials.
    It sounds like you are looking for a black or white answer to a question for which only a fuzzy logic response can be given.

    Be humble and accept the fact that you are trying to do the right thing but there will always be conflicts because of how individuals percieve things differently from one another.

  41. #41
    thread crapper
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    754
    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    I really don't understand why some people have so much difficulty with this. Is coming to a stop and making room (while keeping in mind being as respectful of the trail and surrounding vegetation) that difficult? Are people so wrapped up in their fun (this is something we do for recreation you know) that they're "full speed ahead damn whatever gets in my way I don't care about anything but me"?

    Yes, in some situations, yielding ROW might not mean coming to a complete stop. On double track or a very wide trail (I don't think 3' is wide enough for a rolling yield BTW) you can slow and give room, but you should always slow way down.
    I think this is the biggest hold up we're all having. I'm sure we've all seen or heard of "that guy". But the majority of us are respectful riders. A yield for me can absolutely be a complete stop, if the situation dictates it. If I'm coming up on Jack and Jill and she's really struggling and needs all the trail she can get to continue to make it up the trail, I'm absolutely going to stop and GTFO her way. I may even encourage her, as long as she's not a ginger that looks like she's on the hunt for new souls. But, if I come up on a USPS kit wearing dude, and the trail looks wide enough, I'm probably going to let my intent to stay on the trail (at the edge) and ease on by be known at a slower pace. Is that not yielding at that point?

  42. #42
    Team Velveeta™
    Reputation: TomP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,001
    Quote Originally Posted by scottap2003 View Post
    ... But, if I come up on a USPS kit wearing dude, and the trail looks wide enough, I'm probably going to let my intent to stay on the trail (at the edge) and ease on by be known at a slower pace. Is that not yielding at that point?
    Nope. It's not.

    You are imposing your judgement about what's safe and convenient on him. And obviously you are judging him. You are assuming things about him by his clothing. You are assuming that he's fine with your behavior. You're assuming he's fine with the line that you are imposing on him--now he's gotta stay at his edge even if that's not a good line. What if one of you bumps an obstacle at just the wrong instant and pops into the middle of the trail? Even at the slower pace that you have decided is safe, your bar could smash into his hand and easily do damage.

    For fsck's sake, what's your goddamn hurry? Stop for 20 damned seconds and yield.
    Last edited by TomP; 06-26-2013 at 11:54 AM.
    Tom Purvis - Salida, CO - http://teamvelveeta.tom-purvis.com

    "I like my wimmen like I like my beer--cold and bitter!"

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ironbrewer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by TomP View Post
    Nope. It's not.

    You are imposing your judgement about what's safe and convenient on him. And obviously you are judging him. You are assuming things about him by his clothing. You are assuming that he's fine with your behavior. You're assuming he's fine with the line that you are imposing on him--now he's gotta stay at his edge even if that's not a good line. What if one of you bumps an obstacle at just the wrong instant and pops into the middle of the trail? Even at low the slower pace that you have decided is safe, your bar could smash into his hand and easily do damage.

    For fsck's sake, what's your goddamn hurry? Stop for 20 damned seconds and yield.

    I completely agree. And its money not skill that buys you the gear that makes you look all badass.

  44. #44
    Living the High Life
    Reputation: Ithnu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,535
    Name:  see-this-shit-stop-it.jpg
Views: 1738
Size:  26.6 KB

    These yield threads need to die. Go ride your bike and don't be a douchebag.
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    823
    An excellent name for a band "Situational Douchnozzle"

  46. #46
    Living the High Life
    Reputation: Ithnu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,535
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBitey View Post
    An excellent name for a band "Situational Douchnozzle"
    Not bad but how about "The Sniveling Crotch Bags"
    You have just been mentally Rick Roll'd. Yup you're thinking about it right now aren't you? Don't fight it.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jugdish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    3,239
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBitey View Post
    An excellent name for a band "Situational Douchnozzle"
    Is Chuck Disc still fronting that band or did Swerve McKenzie take over after rehab?
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide,
    Where we should go,
    We just ride...

  48. #48
    Free your heel...
    Reputation: hopsalot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    336
    It's a very clear rule and I don't understand why there is any problem. The rule is yield to uphill riders and this is designed to leave some gray area. Until the rule is changed "stop" for uphill riders those of us with a firm grasp of the rules will continue to follow them.

  49. #49
    thread crapper
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    754
    Yeah, I'm kind of confused here. I yield to the uphill rider and do not impede his "flow" or momentum, but because I don't stop, I'm an ass? I've never seen a yield sign that I read to mean stop. I always read them as, make sure you do not interrupt the flow of traffic as you pass through.

  50. #50
    formerly shabadu
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    952
    Wow.

    Here is what I do, in order to maximize my fun and speed. When I'm descending and see a climber, I stop almost immediately, take a foot off, lean and say what's up. As soon as the climber(s) pass, I get right back up to max speed. I don't slow down and get wobbly and cover valuable lengths of trail at an un-fun pace as I try to figure out the situation. I just stop and yield, then get back to ludicrous speed with a pedal stroke and the gift of gravity.

    The truth is, a descending rider has to be willing and able to stop for ANYTHING at any time: rider, hiker, horse (with lots of space to spare), deer, moose. So don't ride like a kook. If you think it's unsafe or difficult to stop for a climber, you're doing it wrong.

    And when I'm climbing, I am gonna hold the line I'm on and I've got some wide bars, and great balance, so it would be in the descenders best interest to stop.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. "Yield to Downhill. It's cool and it's courteous"
    By NoHg in forum Colorado - Front Range
    Replies: 148
    Last Post: 06-27-2013, 11:45 AM
  2. the "stop buying $#!^ before Christmas" Blues
    By RobinGB in forum Passion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-19-2012, 04:59 PM
  3. GM says "Stop pedaling... start driving" WTH?
    By Ronin Six in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 128
    Last Post: 10-25-2011, 04:23 PM
  4. Yield Doesn't Mean Stop
    By ChainChain in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 10-18-2011, 09:32 PM
  5. I'm begging you, stop saying "PULL THE TRIGGER"
    By SwampDonkeyDisco in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 05-19-2010, 08:32 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •