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  1. #1
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    Yeti 575 Alternative - SC Heckler??

    I'm wondering if any Front Range regulars have experience with both the 575 and Heckler. I see 575s everywhere which is a good endorsement, but I can save several hundred dollars going with a Heckler. Both are single pivot designs with approx the same amount of travel and frame weight. All thoughts appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Carbon Nomad?

    Oh I want one!
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  3. #3
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    Are you interested only in a single-pivot?

  4. #4
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    You should just save yourself some money AND go with the 575...

    http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showprod...?product=48854

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdub
    You should just save yourself some money AND go with the 575...

    http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showprod...?product=48854
    Note to self... put my 575 up for sale ASAP.
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  6. #6
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    Save yourself some money by buying a yeti. That is hilarious!

  7. #7
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    I'd recommend the Yeti. Out here you can find a good used Yeti for a good price if you watch CL.

    My recommendation at that price would be a Niner Rip 9 though

  8. #8
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    Was looking at the SC website - the APP design on that new Butcher looks interesting.
    Dont know if they're in stores yet, but might be worth a test ride. After all, opinions on "which bike is best" mean nothing until you've actually tested them out. I remember when I was looking for an AM bike and tested a 575 - just didn't like the feel of the rear suspension (disclaimer: this was the old 575 with that triangular knuckle they used to have in the top tube)

    Also, the forward shock pivot/mount on the Butcher has a built in bottle opener ... just sayin'
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake7
    Was looking at the SC website - the APP design on that new Butcher looks interesting.
    at the "APP" design moniker.

  10. #10
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    what the heck the sc wins this shootout in my opinion.
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  11. #11
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    Thanks for the quick responses and to address some of the comments:
    My apologies, I should have included some more info.
    1) No carbon - I've broke carbon stays on my current bike and my buddy broke the carbon rear triangle of his 575. I'm soured on the stuff for mtb. Right or wrong, I'm done with carbon for now.
    2) I've ridden the 575 of my buddy and liked it, just would like to find something similar that has an all aluminum frame and costs less. I believe the 575 is no longer offered w/o a carbon component in the rear. I will say that Yeti was super in supportong my friends broken 575, but I'd still rather avoid the stuff.
    3) I only need a new frame/fork. I've got everything else and I have a strong preference for new.

    I've also checked out the Intense Tracer and Blur LT - both obvioulsy sweet but not exactly in the less $ than 575 category.

    Mainly looking at the Heckler as a good option for a dependable and fun bike that goes up and down day after day.

  12. #12
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    The Heckler is an awesome machine. I have an '09 575 and my regular ride buddy is on his 2nd Heckler so I have experience on both. The Heckler is generally heavier - if it matters. My buddy's build is just under 29lbs and my 575 is just over 26 with pretty much the same components. Both bikes are awesome. The 575 climbs better and flies through the gnarly stuff as well as the Heckler. However, the Heckler inspires more confidence off big ledges and IMO leans more toward the trail/ all-mtn category (big travel/burly build/meant to be abused downhill but not be so heavy you can't pedal it up) while the 575 is is solidly in the middle of the trail category (lighter build - see carbon seat/chain stays, that can be pedaled all day long but still tackle the gnar).
    When I was shopping for a new bike last year I thought I would be getting an SC for sure - Nomad, Heckler, Blur - but they just didn't fit me like I thought they would. The 575 did.
    Moral of the story - make sure you try them all. My buddy and I ride the exact same trails all up and down the FR, Moab, Fruita together all the time and there is no question that both bikes are awesome here.
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  13. #13
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    I'd look at the Butcher. There's a Santa Cruz Demo day on Thursday at Mt. Falcon.

  14. #14
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    Santa Cruz has got some pretty sweet stuff coming out. I hope Yeti follows suit and ditches the 575 suspension. I love my 575, but I think it's time for a new design.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by brandonj1979
    Santa Cruz has got some pretty sweet stuff coming out. I hope Yeti follows suit and ditches the 575 suspension. I love my 575, but I think it's time for a new design.
    Just... because?

  16. #16
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    I have a Heckler. I like it. I'm the final authority on the matter. End of story.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka
    I have a Heckler. I like it. I'm the final authority on the matter. End of story.
    THANK YOU - that is exactly what I needed to hear. Now I can skip the demo at Mt Falcon on Thursday.

    Serioulsy, thanks to all. You helped.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggy McNoodles
    Both are single pivot designs with approx the same amount of travel and frame weight. All thoughts appreciated.
    The 575 isn't single pivot though. It's a four bar system.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Just... because?
    YUP!
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  20. #20
    Starts B, ends Rant.
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    I'm excited for this thread to turn into debate over whether the 575 is single pivot or four bar.

  21. #21
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    Do what it takes to get hold of a newer Heckler in your size (2007 or newer) and ride it on multiple trails. Tweak the fork and shock settings to your liking, then ride some more. That's the only way you're gonna know if you'll want one. I've been riding an '07 Superlight for three years, PUSHed RP23. I love it. But I don't ride aggressively so never wanted a Heckler (meaning, more travel). Same suspension, though. What might bother one rider about whatever, the next rider won't even notice.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyguy1
    The 575 isn't single pivot though. It's a four bar system.
    Nope. Its a single pivot. The rear axle moves around the main pivot. Theres some other stuff going on that actuates the shock, but yup, its just a well executed single pivot design.

    To the OP, you should check out the new single pivot (APP) stuff from SC in addition to the Heckler. The Nickel or Butcher may fit the bill nicely. You can demo both of them tomorrow night at Mt Falcon from 4:30 to 7pm.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by brandonj1979
    YUP!
    Hey - at least you're honest.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I've been riding an '07 Superlight for three years, PUSHed RP23. I love it. But I don't ride aggressively so never wanted a Heckler (meaning, more travel). Same suspension, though. What might bother one rider about whatever, the next rider won't even notice.
    Actually, mine is an '08, and it came with a Float. Had it PUSHed but still wish I could have a lockout. It rides well enough, and the back end really digs in on climbs. I think it weighs around 30#, and I don't see how I could drop much weight off it: Pike, X9 drivetrain, DT E2200 wheelset with Advantage 2.25s, Atlas cranks. It's one tough bike that I'm not afraid to ride through anything. In fact, I'm not very interested in trying a four bar suspension just because the Heckler works so well.

  25. #25
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    I've built a few Transition Coverts and Tomac Snypers lately. Great bikes if you're looking for a good do it all beefy single pivot on a not huge budget. I've been on a 2010 Snyper for a few weeks now and so far it's the bees knees. 2010 Tomacs use what they call IAS (Instant Active Suspension) which is mumbo jumbo for a single pivot with a mini link - same deal as Santa Cruz's APP.

    The Transition Covert is weighing in a 7.4lbs for a medium and would be a great stout bike capable of many things, especially given where you are Eggy.
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  26. #26
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    Get the Yeti ASR 7...

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastajet
    Get the Yeti ASR 7...
    +1 love mine!

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyechka
    Actually, mine is an '08, and it came with a Float. Had it PUSHed but still wish I could have a lockout. It rides well enough, and the back end really digs in on climbs. I think it weighs around 30#, and I don't see how I could drop much weight off it: Pike, X9 drivetrain, DT E2200 wheelset with Advantage 2.25s, Atlas cranks. It's one tough bike that I'm not afraid to ride through anything. In fact, I'm not very interested in trying a four bar suspension just because the Heckler works so well.

    I'm curious how the PUSH tune worked for you. Is it true that when PUSH tunes a float RL they eliminate the lockout, but they add propedal to it? How did the ride compare before and after?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron
    Nope. Its a single pivot. The rear axle moves around the main pivot. Theres some other stuff going on that actuates the shock, but yup, its just a well executed single pivot design.

    To the OP, you should check out the new single pivot (APP) stuff from SC in addition to the Heckler. The Nickel or Butcher may fit the bill nicely. You can demo both of them tomorrow night at Mt Falcon from 4:30 to 7pm.
    Actually, I agree it is a single pivot, and the rear axle having a simple circular path about the main pivot is the common criteria for considering it a single pivot.
    However, if it had a seatsay pivot, it would still have the same circular axle path, but it would also be a four bar, according to the engineering definition, not Specialized Inc's marketing definition.
    But the Yeti has no seatstay pivot so there really is no controversy on how to characterize it. It's a single pivot.

    Quote Originally Posted by B-rant
    I'm excited for this thread to turn into debate over whether the 575 is single pivot or four bar
    .

    I'm trying!

  30. #30
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    I would describe the Yeti as a modified single pivot or, a single pivot plus, since it really has a bit more going on than just a simple single pivot!
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    Actually, I agree it is a single pivot, and the rear axle having a simple circular path about the main pivot is the common criteria for considering it a single pivot.
    However, if it had a seatsay pivot, it would still have the same circular axle path, but it would also be a four bar, according to the engineering definition, not Specialized Inc's marketing definition.
    But the Yeti has no seatstay pivot so there really is no controversy on how to characterize it. It's a single pivot.
    The seatstay pivot is the flex point directly forward from the dropouts. It's a SMALL pivot, but it is a pivot.

    The ASR7 is like the 575 except there is a discrete pivot at that location because of the travel - the carbon doesn't flex enough.

  32. #32
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    The shock rate may not be that of a single pivot, but the axle path is very much the same as a single pivot. Even my Specialized Demo 8 is a glorified single pivot.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    The shock rate may not be that of a single pivot, but the axle path is very much the same as a single pivot. Even my Specialized Demo 8 is a glorified single pivot.
    This is more fun in the Yeti forum, anyway. I've come to the conclusion that suspension design is better experienced than read about.

    I thought each additional pivot added 1 mph to climbing speed and 1.175 mph to descending speed!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetigirl
    I would describe the Yeti as a modified single pivot or, a single pivot plus, since it really has a bit more going on than just a simple single pivot!
    I agree, but there is a difference between a practical description and the commonly accepted lingo. I don't like the term "single pivot" because it is applied to bikes that sometimes have lots of pivots!
    And obviously a simple single pivot like Santa Cruz Superlight is simpler and different than a Yeti, which is different than a Kona, etc.

    But regardless, single pivot is used as a term to describe how many pivots effect the axle path, not how many pivots are incorporated in the design.

    I think there is some snobbery going on, where all these different types of designs are lumped in to one catagory, to differentiate them from horst and minilink designs, which have 2 pivots that determine the (non-circular), axle path.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest3070
    The seatstay pivot is the flex point directly forward from the dropouts. It's a SMALL pivot, but it is a pivot.

    The ASR7 is like the 575 except there is a discrete pivot at that location because of the travel - the carbon doesn't flex enough.
    Are you saying there is an actual pivot there, or flex of the seatstays acts similar to a pivot?

  36. #36
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    I'd suggest checking out the new Tomac Synper or Vanquish even. They are a HUGE sleeper company that many over look because they don't have the budget the Yeti's and Santa Cruz's have. I've ridden the old Synper and it was sweet. Have an Automatic (120mm) coming tomorrow myself. Check them out. Good peeps. Call and talk to Clark today he's a wealth of info. Tell him I say hello
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  37. #37
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    I have ridden my 03 Heckler everywhere from Pisgah to Moab. It's done plenty of hucks (sometimes with me still on it!) and lots of climbing...never disappoints. But that being said, I'd definitely be considering the Butcher (or Nickle) in the price range you are seeking. It's just an improved single pivot design for the same money IMO. But the Yeti's look cool too if they fit you better, and the company is very supportive here in the front range. So go demo a handful of bikes and it should be an easy decision for you. Enjoy!
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  38. #38
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    Yeti!!

    In my completely unbiased opinion I would spend the extra $ and go with the Yeti, it's amazing!!

  39. #39
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    ? for Heckler Riders

    I'm another prospect in buying the Heckler.

    Other than a single pivot being easier to maintain and a Heckler being cheaper than the Blur, are there any other reasons why someone should choose a Heckler over a Blur. Does the brake jack really affect you? Blur is definitley the better all performance bike. Can a Heckler take more of a beating. I've even heard of Hecklers being used in resort downhilling. What is it about the Heckler that makes it what it is if you know what I mean.

    Sounds like the Butcher is an upgrade of the Heckler. Beefy bike like the Heckler but able to climb better. So now I'm looking into that now.
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  40. #40
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    I ride an '08 heckler, built with a dhx coil and a vanilla 32. Its a super fun, tough bike. You can't really go wrong with it for all mountain riding.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    Are you saying there is an actual pivot there, or flex of the seatstays acts similar to a pivot?
    The ASR7 has a discrete pivot but the 575 has a thin section in the seatstay that is designed to flex in place of a bearing/bushing.

  42. #42
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    Well said...

    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    The shock rate may not be that of a single pivot, but the axle path is very much the same as a single pivot. Even my Specialized Demo 8 is a glorified single pivot.
    I mean 'wurd dat'!

    You can have a 'linkage driven single pivot', but that *can* only affect...err...effect...shock leverage ratio, not axle path...
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacing08
    I'm another prospect in buying the Heckler.

    Other than a single pivot being easier to maintain and a Heckler being cheaper than the Blur, are there any other reasons why someone should choose a Heckler over a Blur. Does the brake jack really affect you? Blur is definitley the better all performance bike. Can a Heckler take more of a beating. I've even heard of Hecklers being used in resort downhilling. What is it about the Heckler that makes it what it is if you know what I mean.

    Sounds like the Butcher is an upgrade of the Heckler. Beefy bike like the Heckler but able to climb better. So now I'm looking into that now.
    I think the bottom line is that people might buy a Heckler because it is the sweetest bike they have ever ridden. Forget all the hype about "brake jack" and the problems with single pivots and the miraculous super duper performance of multi pivots etc.
    For some people, the Heckler performance, or the Yeti performance, when braking, climbing etc, might be EXACTLY what they are looking for, despite all the marketing mumbo jumbo from Dave Weagle, Specialized, etc.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    I think the bottom line is that people might buy a Heckler because it is the sweetest bike they have ever ridden. Forget all the hype about "brake jack" and the problems with single pivots and the miraculous super duper performance of multi pivots etc.
    For some people, the Heckler performance, or the Yeti performance, when braking, climbing etc, might be EXACTLY what they are looking for, despite all the marketing mumbo jumbo from Dave Weagle, Specialized, etc.
    100% agreed. Make sure you ride the bikes you like and make sure they fit properly and make sure the suspension is setup correctly. Pick the one you like the most.

  45. #45
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    Why don't you look at some of Titus's offerings? I know it is off topic, but they have excellent customer service, and some great frames. I have a '09 Moto and I am planning on adding a Guapo for more aggressive stuff.

    Edit: Big Ring has plenty of demos, but the best Titus rep is Salvagetti in downtown Denver.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacing08
    I'm another prospect in buying the Heckler.

    Other than a single pivot being easier to maintain and a Heckler being cheaper than the Blur, are there any other reasons why someone should choose a Heckler over a Blur. Does the brake jack really affect you?
    I find that when I brake with my Heckler, I slow down. Then I go fast again.


    Blur is definitley the better all performance bike. Can a Heckler take more of a beating. I've even heard of Hecklers being used in resort downhilling.
    My Heckler works just fine at the local Colorado ski resort downhills. I don't know about any brake jack, but I'm smiling at the bottom every time.

  47. #47
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    Keep your eyes on the classifieds - some Turner frames going for pretty reasonable prices recently.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveM
    I mean 'wurd dat'!

    You can have a 'linkage driven single pivot', but that *can* only affect...err...effect...shock leverage ratio, not axle path...
    Axle Path is more important to me than shock leverage ratio's...

    Its really all about Head Angles & Axle Paths.... BWAAAA haa haa haa haaa OMG I crack me up... off the vicoden...OFF the Vicoden.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    Axle Path is more important to me than shock leverage ratio's...

    Its really all about Head Angles & Axle Paths.... BWAAAA haa haa haa haaa OMG I crack me up... off the vicoden...OFF the Vicoden.
    Mmmm... Vitamin V...

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    I'm curious how the PUSH tune worked for you. Is it true that when PUSH tunes a float RL they eliminate the lockout, but they add propedal to it? How did the ride compare before and after?
    All they did was mess with the shims, no propedal added. It's probably a good thing since I would forget to turn it off on descents.

    Before the PUSH tune the shock was a wallowing mess. It would almost bottom on little stuff or going around berms. It was also too bouncy when climbing. I told them to add more of a platform and create a ramp at the end of the travel. I'm not sure about ramping up the end of the travel, but they certainly made it less wallowy. It feels a lot more solid when climbing. I figure there is only so much they can do to a basic Float R. I would say that they made my shock fit me very well within the constraints of what they had to use to begin with.

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